| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 483.1 | | HEFTY::SEABURYM | Zen: It's Not What You Think | Tue Jun 30 1992 23:03 | 7 |
| Richard:
How about that stuff in Matthew 25:35 - 36 for starters ?
Mike
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| 483.2 | | COMET::HAYESJ | Duck and cover! | Wed Jul 01 1992 04:48 | 12 |
| Matt. 24:14, 28:19, 20
Mark 13:10
Acts 5:42, 20:20
1 Tim. 4:16
These scriptures deal with what *all* true Christians are commissioned
to do. This is the work that must be accomplished before the end of
this system of things.
Steve
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| 483.3 | | SWAM1::DOTHARD_ST | PLAYTOE | Wed Jul 01 1992 13:25 | 16 |
| Re: What KIND of works of faith?
I think that it is generic and not limited to specific or defined acts.
Faith in ANY idea is dead if one doesn't ACT upon that idea! Doesn't
have to be a religious belief, it could be scientific, or political,
even an idea regarding one's personal ability/strength/capacity. If
you have faith that you can do some particular thing, when the occasion
arises for you to do that thing, why don't you do it? That suggests to
any person observing you that your faith may not be a great as you
speak, "faith without works is dead"...
"He who is faithful is a little, will also be faithful in a lot"...so I
believe it is generic.
Playtoe
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| 483.4 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Peace | Wed Jul 01 1992 16:35 | 13 |
| I see these verses of James' as attacking the false piety of appearances
and Christian form without substance.
I'm not of the opinion that salvation and observing "thou shalt not's"
constitute the sum of what Christianity is all about. I'm not of the
opinion that prayer and study of the Bible is all that is required of
us. I'm not of the opinion that saying you're a Christian and regularly
attending church represents the fulfillment of Christian commitment.
Sitting around loving the Lord is not enough.
Peace,
Richard
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| 483.5 | What works? | CHEFS::DAVEYP | | Wed Jul 01 1992 16:46 | 8 |
| ref .0
I guess the kind of works referred to would be helping out the guy who
asked for help in 480....
:-)
Paul
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| 483.6 | | HEFTY::SEABURYM | Zen: It's Not What You Think | Wed Jul 01 1992 22:02 | 25 |
| Re.2
Steve:
I looked up the Scriptures you've referenced and I wonder why
it is none of them involve doing anything other than preaching
at people.
What does a cold child need more, a coat or Scripture quoted
at them ? Do you think a hungry man has much appetite for selected
quotes from the epistles of Paul ?
It this to be "true" Christian witness in the world...words ?
"The end of this system of things" will come with or without our
help. But what we do while we are part of this system matters.
It really doesn't take much to effect the quality of the world
we live in. A kind word, a helping hand or a smile and a hug are
have a tremendous effect. To feed a hungry person is greater
testimony to Christianity than all the fancy churches every built
and all the sermons ever preached in them.
Mike
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| 483.7 | Blessed are you who hunger | SDSVAX::SWEENEY | Gotham City's Software Consultant | Wed Jul 01 1992 23:09 | 21 |
| Blessed are you who hunger now for you will be satisfied. Lk 6:21
The tempter came to him and said, 'If you are the Son of God, tell
these stones to become bread'. Jesus answered, it is written 'Man does
not live by bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of
God'. Mt 4:4
A cold child needs the word of God and a coat. A well-dressed child
needs the word of God to see that he should give up his coat to the
cold child.
It's cheap and patronizing to assume that a hungry man doesn't need to
hear St. Paul. Your absurd example where one holds out a coat and a
Bible, and says "Choose only one" should be contrasted with a real one:
a young man of Los Angeles who on network news said that he is
resisting selling drugs, he is hungry and his brothers and sisters are
hungry, but he resists for the sake of his soul.
Those "fancy churches" give glory to God and provide the means for the
community to worship Him. The sermons there are in the imitation of Jesus
Christ who told His apostles to "feed my lambs" Jn 21:15.
|
| 483.8 | | COMET::HAYESJ | Duck and cover! | Thu Jul 02 1992 04:08 | 22 |
| re: .6 Mike
I listed the Scriptures that deal with the primary commission that
Jesus gave for all Christians. Matt. 22:37-39 show what Jesus said are
the two greatest commandments. Certainly, obeying these would involve
what James wrote at James 2:14-17. Jesus himself fed the hungry,
healed the sick, and raised the dead. But his main activity was
telling people about God's Kingdom, and teaching his disciples to do
the same. See 1 Peter 2:21.
The Bible principle of the watchman found at Ezekiel 3:17-21 also
applies to Christians, as Paul brought out at 1 Tim 4:16. Psalms
37:9-11, 28, 29 show that people not meeting Jehovah's standard of
righteousness will be done away with. Isaiah 55:11 confirms that when
God declares something, it will happen without fail. Daniel 2:44 says
that Jehovah will establish exclusive rulership of the earth. No other
form of government will exist when that happens. Telling people about
these things, and what they can do to be subjects of that Kingdom, is a
primary part of a Christian's responsibility.
Steve
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| 483.9 | | HEFTY::SEABURYM | Zen: It's Not What You Think | Thu Jul 02 1992 20:06 | 39 |
|
RE.7
Pat:
I never said choose one or the other, so please don't put
words in my mouth, OK ?
What I said was that I perceive the the emphasis on evangelical
activity over service is something that I see as a failing of
Christian witness in the modern world and is also one of the reasons
I fear that it may cease to be little more than a curiosity in my
lifetime.
As for the remark about "fancy churches" I think that there has
been a marked increase in materialism in the Christian community
in the last couple of decades. I feel this is especially true of
of some of the more conservative Protestant denominations.
Given the current state of the world I really don't think God is
glorified by building a 5 million dollar church building as I
heard one minister recently talk about on TV. Good grief just think
of what could be done with 5 million bucks.
I think think if someone told Christ that they were going to spend
5 million dollars to build a church building to glorify him that he'd
be pretty upset. Now I think that a group of believers can certainly
use a church building and this building can and usually is put to
many good uses. I think that the building itself has very little to
do with glorifying God. That can only take place within the hearts and
minds of individuals. Materialism, human vanity and pride do not
glorify Christ....Matthew 19:21 seems to be an appropriate reference
on this particular topic.
Mike
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| 483.10 | | SDSVAX::SWEENEY | Gotham City's Software Consultant | Thu Jul 02 1992 21:58 | 20 |
| Mike, one possible parse of what you wrote is that there is a choice.
One or the other, and what you call "service" is the right choice.
I think bringing the word of God to people will make people want to
convert their lives from selfishness and self-interest to a life where
they will love God and love their neighbor. Each love grows with the
other, not at the expense of the other.
When the apostles complained to Jesus that the perfume he was being
anointed with was a "waste" (Mt 26:6, Mk 14:3, Jn 12:3) and could have
been spent on the poor, Jesus disagreed and praised the woman who had
done a "beautiful thing" to Him.
The rich young man of Mt 19:16 was told to do _three_ things and you
mention only the second. Jesus told him to obey the commandments,
first, and finally, to "come, follow me".
Pride doesn't glorify Christ, but we give to the poor, not for their
sake, but for our own salvation and to glorify God.
|
| 483.11 | | SWAM1::DOTHARD_ST | PLAYTOE | Sat Jul 04 1992 16:41 | 36 |
| re: 4
>I see these verses of James' as attacking the false piety of appearances
>and Christian form without substance.
Of course we want to look at the scripture in its immediate context, as
it related to the times and the people of whom it speaks, however, I
understand that it is also a book for ALL times and all people. I
don't think that "attacks" are "for all times", and we must look on the
sunny side of the sayings in the bible. In other words, if something
seems to be an attack we of course will perceive it, but on the other
hand we must reflect also upon that which the attack is intending to
preserve or restore or maintain...and we find the sunny side.
>I'm not of the opinion that salvation and observing "thou shalt not's"
>constitute the sum of what Christianity is all about. I'm not of the
>opinion that prayer and study of the Bible is all that is required of
>us. I'm not of the opinion that saying you're a Christian and regularly
>attending church represents the fulfillment of Christian commitment.
"I'm nots" are not much different than "thou shalt not's", and I agree
that observing the same is only half the battle/journey. To stop
doing against the will of God is like to stop sinking in a quagmire.
And surely the "thou shalt nots" are indicating things we do/may be
doing against the will of God. These sorts of things are "moving in
the negative".
We must stop moving in the negative, and that's half the battle, but
then we must begin to move in the positive. And that requires that we
DO certain things...a whole different energy/effort from trying to stop
the negative conduct and behavior. You have brakes for stopping and an
accelerator for moving in the positive.
>Sitting around loving the Lord is not enough.
"If you don't love your brother, you don't love God."
|
| 483.12 | | SWAM1::DOTHARD_ST | PLAYTOE | Sat Jul 04 1992 16:43 | 2 |
|
"My children suffer from a lack of knowledge".
|
| 483.13 | | DEMING::VALENZA | Being and notingness. | Tue Jul 07 1992 15:03 | 24 |
| Not being a Christian, I have to admit not understanding the
Christian's reason for giving to the poor--in particular, that it is
*not* to benefit the recipient, but rather to benefit the donor (in
terms of salvation), and to glorify God.
To me (and my admittedly non-Christian perspective), my own motivation
for altruistic activity is to benefit the recipient. That is how I
define compassion--you care about another person, and you seek to help
him or her when they need it. That doesn't mean that God doesn't enter
into the equation; rather, to me it means that our love for others and
our love for God are necessarily related and intertwined.
The theologian Charles Hartshorne expressed it in ways that clicked and
made a lot of sense to me. From his (and my) perspective, the
commandments to love God and to love one's neighbor are essentially
identical. Whenever we help our neighbor, we are also expressing our
love for God, because God, who is infinitely compassionate, shares in
all of our experiences, our pleasures and our pains. This view holds
that God is not impassive or unaffected by what we do. In that sense,
then, when we enhance the lives of others, because we care about them,
God is also sharing in that experience. Thus our love for others
necessarily expresses love for God as well.
-- Mike
|
| 483.14 | it's in there | LGP30::FLEISCHER | without vision the people perish (381-0899 ZKO3-2/T63) | Tue Jul 07 1992 15:54 | 30 |
| re Note 483.13 by DEMING::VALENZA:
> The theologian Charles Hartshorne expressed it in ways that clicked and
> made a lot of sense to me. From his (and my) perspective, the
> commandments to love God and to love one's neighbor are essentially
> identical. Whenever we help our neighbor, we are also expressing our
> love for God, because God, who is infinitely compassionate, shares in
> all of our experiences, our pleasures and our pains. This view holds
> that God is not impassive or unaffected by what we do. In that sense,
> then, when we enhance the lives of others, because we care about them,
> God is also sharing in that experience. Thus our love for others
> necessarily expresses love for God as well.
Mike,
This is certainly in accord with the "sheep and goats"
passage in the Gospels, as in Matthew 25:37-40:
25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when
saw we thee an hungered, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave
[thee] drink?
25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or
naked, and clothed [thee]?
25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto
thee?
25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I
say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the
least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
Bob
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