Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

re Note 476.0 by SWAM1::DOTHARD_ST:

>     How can God be WORD?  Examples.
  
        Examples?  Plural?

        I believe that this is a most profound teaching precisely
        because there isn't anything in our everyday experience that
        is anything like it.

        Bob

    God is our Divine Parent, the Ineffible One, the Alpha and the Omega,
    our Teacher, Physician and Friend.  God is Sovereign.  In the first
    letter of John, we're told that God is light and that God is love.

    Peace,
    Richard

The Gospel of John was written in Greek, and used the term "logos", Greek
for "word, reason," or "plan."

"Logos" is used in Hellenistic philosophy and theology to express the divine
reason implicit in and ordering the cosmos, giving it form and meaning.

The term "Word" is also associated with the Old Testament concept of revelation,
connoting ideas of God's activity and power and the Jewish view that Wisdom is
the divine agent that draws man to God and is identified with the word of God.

The Gospel of John uses the term to emphasize the redemptive nature of
Christ, the personified source of life and illumination of men.

Jesus is the Word of God, the divine reason in which the whole human race
shares and the divine will and word by which the worlds were framed.

/john

	Regarding John 1:1 I would like to raise the point that, someone who is
	'with' another person cannot also be that person.

	Not all Bible translations render John 1:1 like the KJV. 

	The Emphatic Diaglott, of which I have a copy renders John 1:1 in
	the interlinear reading as "In the beginning was the Word, and the 
	Word was with the God, and a god was the Word."

	Such translations as above feel the need to use an indefinite article
	'a' rather than the definite article 'the'. Looking at the text in 
	Greek helps us to see why some tranlators feel the need to use the
	indefinite article.

	Would anyone like to know why or discuss?

	Phil.  

>How can someone be with another person and also be that person

Well, that's not exactly what it says.

In any case, the Doctrine of the Trinity explains it all.

Jesus is God.  Jesus is with God.  Yet there is only One God.

RE .5

John,

>How can someone be with another person and also be that person

;Well, that's not exactly what it says.

So how do you see what 'with' means in the context of John 1:1? . Reading 
the verse I would understand that 'with' means 'in the company of' . 

"and the Word was with God," KJV 

;In any case, the Doctrine of the Trinity explains it all.

;Jesus is God.  Jesus is with God.  Yet there is only One God.

My personal understanding of the Trinity doctrine is that Jesus is one of three
persons who make up the godhead. All three persons are co-equal and co-eternal.
Many find the Trinity doctrine to be confusing, for example how can the Father
be God, Jesus be God and the Holy Spirit be God, and yet there be not 3 Gods
but only One God? The Scriptures tell us that "God is not a God of confusion."
1 Corinthians 14:33 RSV With this in mind would God be responsible for a 
doctrine that is confusing especially when one considers verses such as 
John 17:3 ?.


Phil.

>My personal understanding of the Trinity doctrine is that Jesus is one of three
>persons who make up the godhead. All three persons are co-equal and co-eternal.
	
	My personal understanding is that things are more complicated then 3
	individual persons. More like 3 aspects of the same person but more so.
	Though I also believe it is a mistake to believe that a purely human 
	model is sufficient to explain the Trinity. There is but one God. Yet
	there are 3 ways in which God interacts with us. The fact that one way
	God interacted with humans is through a human body does not mean that
	He was not and does not still interact in the other ways at the same
	time. Yet there is only on God. Confusing? Yes. But such is the nature
	of God that our understanding must be confusing at times.

			Alfred

One of the best expositions on the Doctrine of the Trinity is the ancient
Athanasian Creed, which follows.  Note that in this creed, which was written
in the early Church, the word "Catholic" applies to all Christians.

Quicunque Vult

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold
the Catholic Faith.

Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt
he shall perish everlastingly.

And the Catholic Faith is this:  That we worship one God in Trinity,
and Trinity in Unity,

Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another
of the Holy Ghost.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one,
the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.

The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate.

The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost
incomprehensible.

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.

And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.

As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one
uncreated, and one incomprehensible.

So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost
Almighty.

And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.

And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.

And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.

For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every
Person by himself to be both God and Lord,

So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, There be three Gods,
or three Lords.

The Father is made of none; neither created nor begotten.

The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten.

The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created,
nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one
Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.

And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less
than another;

But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together, and co-equal.

So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity
in Unity is to be worshipped.

He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe
rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ,
the Son of God, is God and Man;

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of
the substance of his Mother, born in the world;

Perfect God, and perfect Man:  of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting;

Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father,
as touching his Manhood.

Who although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ;

One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the
Manhood into God;

One altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of Person.

For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, So God and Man is one Christ;

Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third
day from the dead.

He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God
Almighty; from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give
account for their own works.

And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that
have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he
cannot be saved.

re Note 476.5 by COVERT::COVERT:

> In any case, the Doctrine of the Trinity explains it all.
  
        John,

        Does it "explain" it all, or merely state a doctrine?

        (I was always taught that the Trinity is a "mystery", meaning
        that it was one of those things beyond human comprehension
        and explanation.  If this is the case, then ANY attempt at
        elaboration will fail to be complete.)

        Bob

In this particular topic, the Doctrine of the Trinity explains how the Word
can be God and also be with God at the same time.  (That was the question I
replied to when I said "The Doctrine of the Trinity explains it all.")

Jesus, God the Son, is the Word of God.

The Word is God.

Jesus, the Word, is with God the Father.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are three persons,
but One God.

/john

    I find the form of the question of .0 argumentative, since within it is
    the implication that God's "pleasure" is somehow connected to the
    belief of men and women in Him.

    The form of John 1 is highly stylistic, much like a poem.  For it's
    audience, it assumes some familiarity with the Judaic idea of creation. 
    To expect it to be a full response to the question "Who is God" is like
    expecting "The Star Spangled Banner" to answer the question "What is
    the United States?"

    Regarding the Trinity which was described in later replies, the words
    doctrine and mystery are used.  Certain elements of belief have the
    status of doctrine because of their importance to understanding the
    nature of God and salvation.  In the Roman Catholic faith, doctrines
    form the foundation of belief.

    Elements of belief that are not known through reason and experience but
    only through divine revelation are called mysteries.  That Jesus lived
    on Earth as a man is known through the historical record and is part of
    the Catholic faith.  That Jesus was both God and man is a mystery of
    our Faith.

    The difficulty with the word mystery is that it refers to that
    something is not fully understood.  More precisely is it that which is
    not fully understood by reason and experience.