Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

>Most churches publish a book which would include statements of faith,
>principles, practices and just about everything else you'd want to
>know about the church.

Say what?  Now, so that I don't look like a total fool ... what is
this book (usually) called?  

>What is this church's teaching on salvation, sin, the sacraments, and
>life everlasting?

A good question ... now I've got to find a way to put it into my words.
Being in sales I am prone to think of the consequences of any question
that I ask ... therefore ... if the response is "how do you define salvation,
sin, the sacraments, and, life everlasting?" I'd be in a world of hurt.

>What is this church's stand on....<whatever you feel to be important>?
>(I'd probably include nationalism, peace, social justice, human sexuality,
>reproductive rights, environmental stewardship, religious tolerance)

What do you mean by "environmental stewardship"?

>What programs and social ministries does this church engage in or support?

What is a "social ministry"?

>In what ways does this church witness to the community?

What do you mean by "witness"?

>What emphasis is given to the Bible as final and absolute authority?  What
>emphasis is given to reason and experience?

THIS ONE is definitely on my list!!!!!

>(Getting down to the nitty-gritty now) What kind of financial commitment
>does this church expect of its membership?

*This* is a biggie for me.  I will not be constantly hounded and "degraded"
because I do not give a fixed amount to the "church".  This absolutely
grates me to the very marrow of my being!!  I have a relatively *fixed* amount
of money that I give to (what I consider to be) worthy organizations every
year. Who do I "cut" or reduce so that I can give to the church?  The Boy
Scouts?  The Girl Scouts?  The Salvation Army?  The Veterans Fund?  The
Homeless Fund?  Battered Women's Shelter?  Someone has to get less so
that I can give to the church.  Difficult at best.

>What kind of commitment is expected in the areas of serving on committees
>or taking on other tasks?

Now, here's one that I hadn't thought of.  I remember that I liked to
participate in committees and the like, but, so very many people that
I know of who do this are often (for lack of better wording) "taking
advantage of" in that they're expected to do it all the time.  For some
people their "life" is the church.  I am not one of those people.

>What is the average age of the membership?

A good mixture is best for me ... I absolutely *love* being around
what I will call the "older" generation.  I love talking to them and
learning from them.  I like to have people my own age so that we can
mutually bitch and moan about what our teenagers have done as of
late and ... the younger generation so that I can keep tabs on the most
recent trends.

>What is required to resign or transfer my membership in the event I decide
>to do so?

Interesting point.  Never thought about it.  To what extent am I really
concerned about a "membership" and any such transfers?  Why should I
be concerned?  Am I not free to walk away from that church and into
another one at the time of my choice?  What if I don't accept any
"membership"?

Look, you're talking to a religious dummy here ... these are questions
that I'm very serious about ... don't flame me too much.

Bubba

Here's a list of the categories of churches that I've found in the Bakersfield
phone book:          ----------

(The ones marked with a "*" are those which I may concentrate on, I reject
the others for various reasons).

Apostolic		Assemblies of God		Baptist
(*)Baptist American	Baptist, Bible Fellowship	Baptist Conservative
Baptist Free Will	Baptist, General		Baptist Gen. Conference
Baptist - Southern	Bible				Brethren
Catholic, Roman		Charismatic			Christian
Christian Disciples	Christian Evangelistic		(*)Christian Methodist
	of Christ	Christian Reformed		Episcopal
Christian & Missionary	Christian Science		Church of Christ
	Alliance	Church of God			Church of God-Cleveland
Church of God in Christ	Church of God of Prophecy		Tennessee
Jesus Christ of LDS	Community			Congregational
Covenant		Evangelical			Evangelical Covenant
Evangelical Free	Evangelical Methodist		Friends
Foursquare Gospel	Full Gospel			Independent Bible
Independent Fundamental	Interdenominational		Jehova's Witness
Lutheran		Mennonite Brethren		Metropolitan Community
Nazarene		Non-demoninational		Pentecostal
Pentecostal Church	Pentecostal Holiness		Pentecostal United
	of God		(*)Presbyterian Church in America
(*)Presbyterian U.S.A.	Religious Science		(*)United Methodist
Reformed in United	United Church of Christ		Seventh Day Adventist
	States		


WOW!!!  Boggles the mind!!!  If "God moves in mysterious ways" he also moves
in many circles!!  Under each category there are a number of churches listed.

So, my fellow Noters ... save me some embarrassment ... what's the difference
between "United Methodist" and "Christian Methodist" and "Evangelical
Methodist"?

What's the "Friends" church?

What is "Baptist Free Will" and "Baptist American" versus the plain
ol' run-of-the-mill-Baptist that I knew as a child?

What's the difference between the two "Presbyterian" groups? [What to hear
the dumb reason why I will look into the Presbyterian Church? I watched
a movie about Peter Marshall and *loved* it!  I would follow that man to
Hell and back!]

Is there any church that I have not marked with a "*" that you think I
would possibly enjoy (don't ask me what I'm looking for, because I'm not
really sure!).

Thanks, many many thanks.  You'll never know just how much I appreciate
this.

Bubba

    Now, Mr. Richard Multiple-last-name ... aren't you sorry that you started
    this note ... all you Sunday-go-to-meeting people are probably thinking
    that you've got one dumb hick on your hands.  Let me clarify this.  You
    do.
    
    Bubba

re .2

;Is there any church that I have not marked with a "*" that you think I
;would possibly enjoy (don't ask me what I'm looking for, because I'm not
;really sure!)

	Bubba,

	I would strongly recommend that you try the Kingdom Hall of
	Jehovah's Witnesses. I am confident that you will find it
	a pleasant experience no matter which one you attend. It is
	not charismatic and there is no collection plate. No play
	on emotions, just down to earth and all are welcome.

	Whichever you choose to attend may I suggest that you arrive
	unannounced. How people attending react to strangers can
	be a good indication of the things they are being taught. 
	You may recognise some of those attending, one question you 
	may ask is "are they the same friendly person outside church?". 
	This would indicate wether or not the things they are being 
	taught is improving their lives in general.

	Hope this helps

	Phil.

	A Jehovah's Witness

Re:  472

  >So, my fellow Noters ... save me some embarrassment ... what's the 
  >difference between "United Methodist" and "Christian Methodist" 
  >and "Evangelical Methodist"?

United Methodist is the large (9,000,000+) Methodist Church you
usually hear about.  This church espouses pluralism (although not
as strongly as they did 20 years ago) and is essentially a liberal
church with about a 10% evangelical pastor population.  The other
denominations are much smaller (I think) and I don't know anything
about them (other than what their names would indicate).  What
their names indicate to me are that they are likely to be more
conservative denominations.

  >What's the "Friends" church?

Quakers.  Best to ask the Quaker in this file, but I don't believe
you need to claim to be a "Christian" to be a Quaker.

  >What is "Baptist Free Will" and "Baptist American" versus the plain
  >ol' run-of-the-mill-Baptist that I knew as a child?

American Baptist is the most liberal of the major Baptist denominations.
Don't know about Baptist Free Will.  BTW, there are about 70 +- distinct
Baptist denominations.  Southern Baptists are some of the most conservative.

  >What's the difference between the two "Presbyterian" groups? 

PCUSA is the liberal Presbyterian denomination.  Not sure where
Presbyterian Church in America stands.  Can't remember offhand the
name of the more conservative denomination (which is smaller).

Re:  Jehovah' Witnesses

Generally classified by Orthodox Christian churches (i.e. the
churches you listed in your note) as a cult since they deny the
Trinity and the Deity of Jesus Christ amongst other things.  They
are a conservative group and place a high emphasis on evangelism.

Re:  liberal / conservative

These are convenient labels that identify how closely a church
tends to rely on the Bible as well as their expectations of
members.  The most conservative churchs (Fundamentalists) rely
quite heavily on the Bible for setting expectations and often have
many rules and regulations that members agree to (such as tithing
or not smoking, etc.)  Evangalicals (which I am) accept the Bible
as authoritative and God-breathed, but have less structure about
personal behavior.  The more liberal church, the less authoritatively
they view Scripture.  Bishop Spong (was he an Episcopal priest?)
is a good example of someone who regards the plain meaning of the
Bible to be totally wrong in many instances and this is reflected
in what is preached and expectations of members.  Since many who
view the Bible this way do not accept the blood sacrifice of Jesus
Christ as payment for their sins, they are not Christians in my
view (which is based on the Biblical claim that this is indeed
essential for being a Christian).

Also, more liberal Christian churches emphasize social works to
a greater extent, more conservative Christina churches emphasize
evangelism to a greater extent (as a general rule).

There are also a myriad of worship styles which tend to be relatively
independent of conservative/liberal beliefs.  More formal to less
formal is roughly in this order:

	Catholic
	Episcopal
	Lutheran
	Methodist
	Presbyterian
	Baptist
	Congregational
	Charismatic

although this certainly varies within denomination.

Hope this helps.  Somewhere, about a year ago, I posted a historical
explanation of what's been happening the last 100+ years in denominations
which gives a lot of insight as to why we have what we have now.

Collis

     bubba,
    
    one of the characteristics of protestant churches is that the
    local parish has a great deal of autonomy. the United Methodist
    denomination encompasses a fairly broad spectrum of churches...
    i would expect that the various christian methodist and evangelical
    methodist are related to and participate at some level with
    the "umbrella" organization. i wouldn't count on all United Methodist
    churches being the same, either.
    
    i would hardly call the Presbyterian Church USA a "liberal" church..
    but liberal/conservative depends a lot on where one stands. the
    Presbyterian Church America split from the larger group in 1973, and
    i believe that they are considerably to the "right" of PCUSA. again
    i would expect that local Presbyterian church vary a good deal...
    
    the American Baptist convention historically divided itself from the
    Southern Baptist convention over the issue of slavery.
    
    too many people (IMHO) use the words liberal/conservative to describe
    religious beliefs...the spillover from politics creates confusion.
    i prefer words such as "literal" and "interpretative"..or "liturgical"
    and "non-liturgical"...or even, "traditional" and "non-traditional".
    
    i notice that you haven't included the Episcopal church on your list
    of possibles...why not give the Book of Common Prayer a chance?
    
    peter

.6> too many people (IMHO) use the words liberal/conservative to describe
.6> religious beliefs...the spillover from politics creates confusion.

TO SAY THE LEAST!  I'll be the first to admit (somewhat sheepishly) that
when I saw the word "conservative" in describing a church ... I said
"WOW! That's for me!" since I am somewhat of a staunch Republican and of
the Rush Limbaugh school of conservatism ... only to discover that when
used in conjunction with religion it is is diametrically OPPOSITE of what
I thought.

.6> i notice that you haven't included the Episcopal church on your list
.6> of possibles...why not give the Book of Common Prayer a chance?

Is the Episcopal church prone to (what I call) "pomp and circumstance"
not to dissimilar from the Catholic Church?

Bubba

Re:  .6

I believe that PCUSA is the most liberal of the Presbyterian
denominations of any size.  Indeed, I don't know a whole lot
about it.  I have heard that it rejects Biblical inerrancy
(throwing it out of the conservative camp).  Perhaps moderate
would best describe it, I don't know.

Re:  use of liberal/moderate/conservative

You can deal with specifics or you can deal with generalities.
The issue of Biblical inerrancy is a specific, calling it
conservative/liberal is more of a generality since it includes
how the church reacts to other issues such as

  - gay rights
  - women's ordination
  - abortion
  - as well as treatment of the Bible

From my experience, where a particular denomination sits on these
issues is almost always closely related to their liberal/conservative
label.  Indeed, there are some exceptions.

Re:  .7

Yes, Episcopal churches are "high" churches that are on the formal
end of the spectrum.  If you like jumping over pews, better to attend
a charismatic church.  :-)

Collis

    
    Collis,
    
    since the Roman Catholic does not hold to the notion of
    Biblical inerrancy i guess that to mean that they are
    a liberal church...despite their stance on the issues that
    you mentioned; gay rights, ordination of women,...
    
    i just don't think that this conservative/liberal thing is
    as "either/or" as you present it to be.
    
    not all Episcopal parishes are "high" church...there are quite
    a number that are more like a Methodist church in the way that
    they conduct their services. i personally love a good Gregorian
    chant..and singing the Lord's Prayer to its ancient tune.
    
    peter

Note 472.1

Bubba,

>Say what?  Now, so that I don't look like a total fool ... what is
>this book (usually) called?  

The names'll vary and these'll usually be updated every few years.  The
United Methodists' book is called "The Book of Discipline."  Friends
(Quakers) use "Faith and Practice."

>What do you mean by "environmental stewardship"?

The care and preservation of Creation.

>What is a "social ministry"?

Oh, this can vary a lot - from running a soup kitchen to providing a
place to convene AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) meetings; from special
singles ministries to providing sanctuary for El Salvadoran refugees.

>What do you mean by "witness"?

What does the local community perceive this church to stand for?

>What is the average age of the membership?

Funny, I didn't used to think about this.  But I've noticed that some
congregations are awfully gray, while in others older folks are surprisingly
absent.

>What is required to resign or transfer my membership in the event I decide
>to do so?

I didn't used to think about this either.  And most churches will accept you
even if you never become a member.  But some don't.  See Note 387.

Peace,
Richard

Note 472.2

>(The ones marked with a "*" are those which I may concentrate on, I reject
>the others for various reasons).

(*)Baptist American
Episcopal
(*)Presbyterian U.S.A.
(*)United Methodist
United Church of Christ

I would categorize the above as "moderate" and would commend you on your
choices.  I suspect the Episcopal and UCC would not be an enormous stretch
from these others, either.  And you know, I may get some flak for this, but
I'd also recommend looking into the Benedictines and the Franciscans (Roman
Catholic), if they're in your area.

>What's the "Friends" church?

There's a sharp difference between a Friends Church and a Friends Meeting,
though historically they both come from the same roots.  Our resident
Quaker is Mike Valenza.  You out there, Mike??  Wanna field this one?
There's also a notesfile called TINCUP::QUAKER.  Press KP7 to add to your
notebook.

Peace,
Richard

.8> I believe that PCUSA is the most liberal of the Presbyterian
.8> denominations of any size.  Indeed, I don't know a whole lot
.8> about it.

I don't know a lot about it either .. but if I could find a church
and pastor like that of the Presbyterian church that was in the 
movie about Peter Marshall ... I would look forward to Sundays and
doing everything for the church that I could do!!

.8> You can deal with specifics or you can deal with generalities.

With the list that you've provided me:
  - gay rights
  - women's ordination
  - abortion
  - as well as treatment of the Bible

It is really of no consequence that a particular congregation or
denomination agree with me on these issues.  The above "issues"
are of little or no consequence to me as far as a place of worship
goes.  Why should it be?  If I looked for some organization that was
in perfect agreement with me ... it would be quite boring.  Thanks, but,
I'd rather stay home and watch the grass grow.

As long as the "church" and/or congregation is receptive to differences
of opinion .. receptive from the perspective that other opinions are 
RESPECTED ...that's what counts.

Am I so wrong?

Bubba

On liberal and conservative churches also see:

	Note 388  Where are the liberal Christians?

Peace,
Richard

    Wow, I guess I really disagree with all this!  If you asked Richard's
    questions of my pastor, I'm not sure exactly what answers you would
    get, but the questions based on beliefs would produce many different
    answers according to whom you question (pastor, various lay people).
    
>What is this church's teaching on salvation, sin, the sacraments, and
>life everlasting?
>
>What is this church's stand on....<whatever you feel to be important>?
>(I'd probably include nationalism, peace, social justice, human sexuality,
>reproductive rights, environmental stewardship, religious tolerance)
    
>What emphasis is given to the Bible as final and absolute authority?  What
>emphasis is given to reason and experience?

    The answers to these questions wouldn't tell you very much 
    about us -- except that our beliefs probably vary a fair amount.
    Of course, if you are looking for a fundamentalist or conservative 
    church that emphasizes "right" beliefs, you might find out that we 
    aren't right for you.
    
    
>What is this church's polity (organizational structure)?
    
    >(Getting down to the nitty-gritty now) What kind of financial commitment
>does this church expect of its membership?

>What kind of commitment is expected in the areas of serving on committees
>or taking on other tasks?

>What is required to resign or transfer my membership in the event I decide
>to do so?
    
    Boy, I tell ya', asking these questions before you've even *visited*
    the church seems to me like wanting a full accounting of financial
    assets from someone before you go out on a first date!  Or wanting to 
    know who'll do the dishes if and when you should marry!
    
    If you visit a church, feel welcome and comfortable there, grow to
    *want* to be part of that community -- then whatever the answers are
    to these particular questions may have an entirely different impact on
    you that they will have before you know the church!
    
    In the south, you can often find out a lot about the beliefs of a
    church by reading their ads in the newspaper.  What are the sermon
    titles?  What special services do they advertise?  To whom do they
    seem to be appealing in their ads?
    
    Because to me the basis of Christianity *is* relationship -- with
    God and with others in a covenant *community* (sorry if I'm in the 
    wrong string here :) -- I'd do a wee bit to weed out those who might
    be too rigid for my beliefs, but I sure wouldn't go through this much
    third degree until after a few "dates" anyway!
    
    Nancy

    Well, gosh, Nancy .14....
    
    	Jus' cause I show Jerry a menu doesn't mean I expect him to order
    everything it's got on it! ;-}
    
    	You're right--as usual, however, and I agree with what you've said.
    In fact, I'd say everyone has been pretty much on target so far.
    
    Pax vobiscum,
    Richard

.14> Boy, I tell ya', asking these questions before you've even *visited*
.14> the church seems to me like wanting a full accounting of financial
.14> assets from someone before you go out on a first date!

What's so bad about that?  Before I date someone I want 3 personal
references, complete financial portolio and medical history .. and
MOST ASSUREDLY want to know who does the dishes!

:-)
Bubba

Re:  472.9

O.K., I'll bite.
    
  >since the Roman Catholic does not hold to the notion of
  >Biblical inerrancy i guess that to mean that they are
  >a liberal church...

No, you're putting words in my mouth that are not there.  The
Roman Catholic Church *does* accept the authority of the
Bible.  On the scectrum of conservative/moderate/liberal
in relationship to the Bible, this puts them between
conservative and moderate, in my opinion.  Now, on the
other issues, they are definately dead conservative.  I suggest
that the label holds, although not absolutely perfectly - just
like I said in my previous note.

  >not all Episcopal parishes are "high" church...

Indeed, not all fill_in_the_blank are fill_in_the_blank.  Does
this mean that we should always make nebulous statements such
as, "well, it could be formal or it could be informal or it
could believe xyz or maybe it doesn't".  

Personally, I never been to an Episcopal worship service where
the priest wasn't wearing a robe as opposed to the business suit
which the pastors at each of my last 4 churches have worn or
compared to the jeans that the song leader at a charismatic church
we visited was wearing.  Episcopal churches I have attended tend to be
rather elaborately decorated as opposed to the converted warehouse
where I attended a charismatic service sitting on folding chairs
or the plainer buildings in the 4C and Nazarene denominations.
I could go on and on, but the point (I trust) has been made.

Collis_feeling_unfairly_criticized

    
    collis,
    
    just because i don't agree with your choice of words
    certainly doesn't mean i'm criticizing you. fine, if
    you choose to use words that i think are ambiguous given
    this context..i've made my point and you've clarified yours.
    
    thanks,
    
    peter

Re:  .14

I certainly agree with some of what Nancy has to say
(while disagreeing with other parts  :-) ).  I'd suggest
visiting several churches which makes knowing a
lot about any given church not that important.

However, I think what a church believes (as represented
by what the denomination believes, what the pastor
believes and what the congregation believes) to be
critical.  Why?  Because salvation is by *faith*
which is dependent on *what you believe*.  In other
words, if you choose to believe that God is a golden
calf and pray to this God using all the "right" words
for salvation and with the best of intentions, then your
faith is misplaced and you'll be condemned to hell just
like the person that never had faith in anything.  And
what's worse, you'll think that you're saved!

Who God is, what God is and what God says are *critical*.
How you approach God is *critical*.  Paul makes it very
clear in Romans that the only hope we have is in the
acceptance of Jesus Christ as payment for the sins we
continually commit.  If you choose to attend a "Christian"
church which does not teach this (and there are a lot of
them around that either teach something different or spend
their time emphasizing other things and let their members
go to hell through ignoring the basics of the gospel), then
you're missing what God has to offer.

Collis_who_knows_of_what_he_speaks

    I think Collis's comments bring to mind an important point.  One of
    things that you may need to get clear in your own mind is what kind of
    experience you are hoping to get out of attending a particular church. 
    This question may not be easy to answer, especially if you honestly
    don't know at this point.

    One of the important questions that Collis described is the degree of
    doctrinal flexibility that you are looking for, either explicitly or
    implicitly.  If you accept as a premise what Collis mentioned as his own
    beliefs, in which correct beliefs are an absolute requirement, then it
    would make sense to be very concerned about the matching up the beliefs
    of the church with what you perceive to be the correct ones.  I suppose
    to a certain extent we are all looking for like-minded people when we
    associate with a denomination, but "like-minded" can mean many
    things--same doctrine, or a similar commitment to process and
    tradition, or perhaps something else.  The point is that clearly
    spelled out doctrines, on the one hand, and doctrinal flexibility, on
    the other hand, are contrasting styles of religious experience; in both
    cases, these styles are inherently satisfactory and desirable to their
    practitioners.  The question then arises as to what *you* can not only
    tolerate, but that you actually find desirable and perhaps even
    necessary to the religious experiences that you seek.

    And if you don't know yet, then perhaps the answer is to simply try
    different churches with different degrees of doctrinal flexibility, and
    see what feels right for you.

    -- Mike

                 re: Note 472.14    LJOHUB::NSMITH 
                      
    Nancy,
    
  >  Wow, I guess I really disagree with all this!  If you asked Richard's
  >  questions of my pastor, I'm not sure exactly what answers you would
  >  get, but the questions based on beliefs would produce many different
  >  answers according to whom you question (pastor, various lay people).
    
:What is this church's teaching on salvation, sin, the sacraments, and
:>life everlasting?

    Why would the pastor and lay people give many different answers based
    on questions of basic beliefs such as the question above? It seems
    this shows a lack of unity; in contrast with 1 Cor 1:10. Naturally all
    unified beliefs/thought must be in harmony with Scripture. This aspect
    of unity may also be another fine subject to use to examine different 
    religions. 
    Nancy, I've found your statement, sadly, to be often true regarding
    "many different answers" being given. As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I 
    often find, when talking to folks at their homes, they voice different 
    beliefs then what the "Church" has; I.E. A woman claiming to be a Roman 
    Catholic told me she believed in re-incarnation. As I mentioned above
    this shows a lack of unity and not in line with Scriptures. 
    
    I join with Phil Yerkess (Note 472.4) in recommending Jehovah's Witnesses 
    be examined. 
                             robin
     
    

    You would also get a lot of different answers if you asked Quakers
    those same questions.  I might add that, as Richard alluded to earlier,
    within Quakerism you have different branches, and these branches often
    place different emphases on the need for doctrinal unity.

    It really depends, as I mentioned earlier, on what you are looking for
    in a worship community.  There is typically *something* that draws the
    people together (that gives them unity), but what that is can be
    different things for different churches; in some cases, it is agreement
    on a list of doctrines, but not in every case.  Whether that is good or
    bad depends on your outlook.  If you come from a perspective that
    requires doctrinal conformity, then the idea of doctrinal diversity
    within a congregation would be unthinkable; on the other hand, some of
    us wouldn't have it any other way.  When the woman I live with, an
    ex-Catholic who is a Christian, joined her Quaker meeting, she was
    asked if it bothered her that only about half the congregation were
    Christians.  Not only did it not bother her, she considered that one of
    its main selling points.

    -- Mike

    Robin,
    
    >Why would the pastor and lay people give many different answers based
    >on questions of basic beliefs such as the question above? It seems
    >this shows a lack of unity; in contrast with 1 Cor 1:10. Naturally all
    >unified beliefs/thought must be in harmony with Scripture. 
    
    My church, to use Mike's words, comes cloer to embracing "doctrinal 
    diversity" than "doctrinal conformity."   Each person questioned would
    tell you what he or she believes -- and might also venture a *guess*
    as to what the majority of church members believe.  However, for us,
    faith is not so much a set of "right" beliefs as a commitment to the
    lordship of Jesus Christ and lives of discipleship.  There is probably
    a lot of diversity within our congregation on what it means to
    have beliefs "in harmony with Scripture."
    
    For me, faith is not the *content of my beliefs* but a *decision* to 
    accept and follow Christ as Savior and Lord.  It is 
    	Forsaking
    	All
    	I 
    	Take
        Him  
    
    I am happy to be in communion with others who make the same decision and 
    commitment! 
    
    Nancy

    Collis,
    
    Episcopal priests wear robes that are derived from the actual
    dress of men in the time of Christ. I personally find them a
    way of separating the role of the man from his role as God's 
    servant. As a younger woman I found it hard to accept that someone
    could be represnting God's word in street clothes. Of course, I've
    since learned that what a person wears doesn't affect his or her
    message about God.
    
    and what, may I ask, is wrong with the type of decorations in the
    Episcopal church? I find they focus my mind or worship a lot
    more than the warehouse with folding chairs style of atmosphere
    you appear to be praising.
    
    Bonnie

    Your comments about priestly attire are interesting, Bonnie.  They
    provide an interesting contrast with the perspective of my own
    denomination (Quakerism).  Quaker worship is organized around the view
    that everyone who attends is a minister, and everyone is capable of
    expressing the word of God as part of worship.  There is no distinction
    between priests on the one hand, and lay worshipers on the other.  As
    one who wears rather casual attire to Quaker worship, I don't think
    anyone would confuse me with an Episcopalian priest.  :-)

    -- Mike

Re:  472.24
    
  >and what, may I ask, is wrong with the type of decorations in the
  >Episcopal church? 

I don't know; what do you find wrong with it?

  >I find they focus my mind or worship a lot more than the warehouse 
  >with folding chairs style of atmosphere you appear to be praising.
    
You're leap from my desciption of various forms of worship to judging
what is appropriate or good bewilders me.  Suffice it to say that there
was no judgment associated with my description (and you still don't
know which I prefer).

Collis

    On the tangental topic, also See Note 297.*, On Clerical Attire.
    
    Richard

    Bubba,
    
    Here's a third pointer to any Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses.  It
    doesn't matter which one you choose, because you will find the unity
    and love that Jesus said would identify his disciples (John 17:21,
    13:35).  Examine Jehovah's Witnesses, Bubba.  After I examined them a
    few years ago, I knew I wanted to be one of them.  And now I am.
    
    Read what the Apostle Paul wrote at 2 Timothy 4:3,4.  During my examin-
    ation of the Witnesses I found that they didn't try to tell me what
    they thought I wanted to hear.  They just told me the plain, unadorned
    truth.  And if that's what you're looking for, that's where you'll find
    it, just as I did.  You won't be able to determine that until you exam-
    ine us first hand, face to face.
    
    
    Steve
    

    in re .26
    
    If no criticism was intended I appologise.... I took your remarks
    as being critical of the church I attend.
    
    Bonnie