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Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Title:Discussions from a Christian Perspective
Notice:Prostitutes and tax collectors welcome!
Moderator:CSC32::J_CHRISTIE
Created:Mon Sep 17 1990
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1362
Total number of notes:61362

440.0. "Does God create 'wretches'?" by ATSE::FLAHERTY (Wings of fire: Percie and me) Tue Apr 21 1992 17:40

    Amazing Grace has always been one of my favorite hymns.  However, I
    always replace the word 'wretch' with 'soul'.  Playtoe's note using
    that term brought it to mind:
    
================================================================================
Note 439.52                   Deny Christ or DIE!!                      52 of 52
SWAM1::DOTHARD_ST "PLAYTOE"                           6 lines  21-APR-1992 16:31
             -< Was a wretched man, but now I'm better than that. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    RE: 25
    
    Hummm...God is a manipulater too...cause he sure put me to shame. 
    Saved a WRETCH like me...
    
    Playtoe
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    This is part of the 'shaming' that I believe is man's doing, not God's.
    I don't believe a loving God looks upon his creations as 'wretches'.
    
    Ro
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name		DateLines
440.1I like soul better...VIDSYS::PARENTThe girl in the mirrorTue Apr 21 1992 17:488
   Ro,

   Hope I got the name right.  I say yes, speaking only for myself and
   some old shame.

   Allison
440.2yTFH::KIRKa simple songThu Apr 23 1992 15:4229
re: Note 440.0 by Ro "Wings of fire: Percie and me" 

>                        -< Does God create 'wretches'? >-

No, I don't believe so.  However, through our own actions we can take 
something as precious as our own lives, or the lives of others, and make them
wretched. 

>    This is part of the 'shaming' that I believe is man's doing, not God's.
>    I don't believe a loving God looks upon his creations as 'wretches'.
    
I agree, but I believe the song is more of an expression of how a person may 
see themselves as such, and through the work of a loving God, transcend that 
shame.

Plus, I generally don't like taking a work of art and altering it.  There are 
many wonderful old hymns, for example, with terribly sexist language, but "God 
rest you merry, Gentlefolk" or "Faith of our Parents, living still..." just 
doesn't ring right for me.  .-)  In those types of circumstances, I accede to 
the artistic constraints that may have been imposed and try to see the broader 
meaning that rhyme, meter, alliteration, and such may have infringed upon.

(There's still a lot of controversy in the Episcopal church focused around the 
alterations, both textually and musically, in the 1982 hymnal as compared to 
the 1940 version.)

Peace,

Jim
440.3good pointATSE::FLAHERTYWings of fire: Percie and meThu Apr 23 1992 16:1723
    Hi Jim,
    
>>Plus, I generally don't like taking a work of art and altering it.  There are 
many wonderful old hymns, for example, with terribly sexist language, but "God 
rest you merry, Gentlefolk" or "Faith of our Parents, living still..." just 
doesn't ring right for me.  .-)  
    
    Your note made me smile!  8^)  Yup, changing the lyrics in these cases
    does tend to be silly.  I usually sing the hymns as written when it is
    a case of sexist language.  Although I've been on spiritual retreats
    where it has been common practice in some instances where the word men
    can be changed to all without affecting the tune (and making everyone
    feel included).  And as a *fellow* ;') Episcopalian, I must admit I do
    make changes to the Book of Common Prayer when they're read aloud on
    Sundays)!  
    
    The word 'wretch' to me makes me feel uncomfortable enough that I can't
    sing it; self-esteem is an important issue for me.  But I can
    understand and share your feelings about not wanting to mess with art.
    
    Ro
440.4Next time, I'm gonna sing it that way!CARTUN::BERGGRENuncovering that which is precious.Fri Apr 24 1992 00:345
    Gee, I kinda like the ring of "God rest ye merry Gentlefolk" 
    
    I really do. :-)
    
    Karen