Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

>    -------------------------------------------------------------------
>    - Faced with the same scenario and question how would you answer? -
>    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I don't know. And I've thought about it quite a bit. The PC answer
    in many churches is to die rather then deny Christ. But as I recall
    one of the Apostles did deny Christ. Was that the right thing to 
    do for him? He thought so as the time. Though later he fent badly
    I wonder if that wasn't so much what he had done but that it was 
    different from what he'd said he'd do.
    
    I think it would depend for me. (Obviously I may not be as stong as
    I'd like to think I am but let's assume I am.) If there is truely no
    hope of escape and I were to believe I would be killed either way
    standing up with Christ is the right thing to do. But that's easy.
    If the case were greyer I'd have to decide if I could get out and do
    more good later. That would not leave me without guilt but I may 
    very well find myself rationalizing to that answer. I'm not happy
    with lying but dying doesn't thrill me either. But when I'm done
    with God's work on earth I think I can life with death. :-)
    
    I'm not sure I can know what I'd do. I just pray that if it comes to
    that that God will give me the wisdom and striength to do what is
    right.
    
    		Alfred

    Re: Basenote
    
    I sense, for some reason, an EARNEST plea for understanding.  Knowing
    you and how "Bubba" you are, to express "need" is like...well, I think
    it's worth taking seriously...and I'll respond the best I can.
    
    Overall, I think it should be born in mind that the Bible, the
    teachings of Christ, the gift of eternal life, Salvation, are meant to
    raise you above the mundane reality which is expressed in "truth" you
    told.  Everybody, who knows not Christ, would perhaps feel inclined to
    perceive reality as you do...and in that respect you can rest assured
    you are a "normal" person.  
    
    But, what God sent us in the person of Jesus, is alien to this world,
    and we must "receive" his Word.
    
    Perhaps, your church was expecting too much...I mean how can they ask
    you a question "alien" to your consciousness and when you answer it
    according to the conscious awareness you do have, they consider you
    "vile"?  Seems they hadn't done THEIR job!  
    
    You see Jerry, it isn't saying anything much to say "Deny Christ and 
    Die" because unless you except Christ, you die anyway?  It's not a
    matter of "denial" it's a matter of not accepting eternal life.
    
    Just the beginning of a very long story...
    
    Playtoe

.2> Overall, I think it should be born in mind that the Bible, the
.2> teachings of Christ, the gift of eternal life, Salvation, are meant to
.2> raise you above the mundane reality which is expressed in "truth" you
.2> told.

The "mundane" reality of the scenario is that you get a piece of hot lead
dead center of your eyeballs if you do not deny Christ.  That, my friend,
is reality in it's harshest form.  If "Christianity" is to deny me the
realities of this earth - thanks - I'm even more convinced that I want no
part of it.

I can down a case of beer and just as easily escape reality for a while
(and probably have some fun at the same time).

.2> It's not a matter of "denial" it's a matter of not accepting eternal life.

Given a choice of "eternal life" or a few more years on this earth ...
I'll take the few more years on the earth, TYVM.

Thanks for your reply, Alfred.  I know you and know that you are indeed
a sincere man of faith.  Somehow it makes me feel good that you said what
you did.

Bubba

    RE: 3
    
    Hi Jerry:
    
>The "mundane" reality of the scenario is that you get a piece of hot lead
>dead center of your eyeballs if you do not deny Christ.  That, my friend,
>is reality in it's harshest form.  If "Christianity" is to deny me the
>realities of this earth - thanks - I'm even more convinced that I want no
>part of it.
    
    Are you saying "if you do NOT deny Christ", somebody will put bullet in
    your head?  Now Jerry, I know that use to be the case long ago...like
    in the days of Roman (though they didn't have guns) persecution of
    Christians...but pretty much since those days I haven't heard much
    more of this sort of thing...except in cases involving private groups
    and members (eg Satanic groups, etc.)
    
    Christianity doesn't deny anyone the "realities of this earth",
    that's not what I'm saying.  It merely allows you to rise above this
    worldly existent, in case you don't like beer.  The difference is if
    you drink from Jesus' cup you'll never thirst again, and never have to 
    use the bathroom to let it run off!
    
>Given a choice of "eternal life" or a few more years on this earth ...
>I'll take the few more years on the earth, TYVM.
    
    Ahhh, there it is there! 
    
    Playtoe

Re:  439.0

  >Should I have lied?  

No, you should have told the truth.  It is indeed unfortunate that
those in leadership chose to come down on you like they did.  It is
very hard to appear vulnerable - and those in the church who may
(or may not) have done exactly what you say were probably felt very
vulnerable and attacked you and what you said because of it.

(In some ways), I deny Christ every day.  It would not surprise me in
the least to deny Him if my life were on the line.  When it is that
clear, however, I may summon up the strength (i.e. God may provide
the strength) to affirm that He is indeed both my Lord and my Savior.

Next time you get asked such a question, just say you hope you'll do
better than the first Pope.  :-)

Collis

re Note 439.0 by MORO::BEELER_JE:

>     The Sunday School teacher posed a scenario:  You are under threat of
>     death unless you renounce, deny, and forever forsake Christ, Christianity,
>     God ... your faith.  What do you do?
  
        A scenario I've heard within the past few years is far more
        terrifying to me:  you are given the choice either of
        denouncing Christ OR of seeing one of your children brutally
        mutilated.

        To a parent, this is far worse than our own death.

        Bob

    Bob,  as a parent I agree with that.  I also think that until one is
    really faced with the life or death decision, one truly does not know
    how they would respond.  I think I'd be weak, but then I've found in my
    life that it is those moments of crisis that my real strength comes to
    the surface.  I dunno...
    
    I also believe that even if I felt forced to deny Jesus verbably to
    protect my children or myself, He and I would both know that I could
    never deny him in my heart.
    
    Ro
    

    Neither can I be sure how I would answer, though I feel if it came to
    being faced with the threat of my children being brutually mutilated, I
    would deny Christ--without hesitation.  
    
    I think the challenge then would be to find a way to keep my heart open 
    to God and not over-burden myself with guilt for my decision, or despair 
    or bitterness that the world has such painful realities -- I would pray
    to be shown a way to live and lead my family to celebrate and affirm the 
    presence of the Most Divine in the world and our relationship to this 
    Presence.
    
    To you Bubba, I feel you made the *right* decision in the face of this
    question.  
    
    Karen

   Bubba,

   Thanks for the string.  I know what you have said, Catholic education
   did the same to me.

   I've face the same question at least twice and the answer will allways
   be the same for me.  I will deny Christ to my inquistor, when
   hypothetical I tell them I lied as what I know in my heart they can't
   know or change.  The real world sometimes makes you prove you'd deny
   Christ, then my values were on the line.  I did it once, it was a bluff
   that I might have had to carry through, I don't know if I would have.

   The real world is very cruel, the choices are difficult.  If you deny
   a part of yourself you allways hurt afterward, it's the price you pay.
   Sometimes the rewards are great enough, saving a life, making someone
   else happier, then again...

   I can only speak from my life.  Deny yourself and your true beliefs
   and you deny your Higher Power as you name her.  I say that as I feel
   I carry my HP within me, deny me, deny my HP, I suffer.

   Allison

     If  someone  asks  a  speculative  question  and  does  not  expect  a
     speculative  answer,  I'd  say  *they*  have a problem.  I can clearly
     remember a time when someone asked me if I could ever take the life of
     another,  and  I  answered honestly with a most emphatic, "No, never!"
     Then I found myself in a situation and a state of mind where  I  would
     have  committed  murder  and  not  have  regretted it one iota.  Thank
     goodness (or whatever) the opportunity did not present itself!  Today,
     if  someone  asked me the same question, I would honestly say, "I hope
     not!"

     I would think that the lesson the story of Peter's denial was  suppose
     to have taught was, "it takes an extra-special act of bravery *not* to
     deny one's Faith in the face of death", so believers can  only  *hope*
     they  would measure up, but they cannot answer with certainty.  If you
     cannot honestly express that *hope*, I would wonder,  speaking  as  an
     agnostic,  whether  you *really* believe in the Christian Faith, which
     promises much to those that can actually do this.

     Think "Peace",

     Alvin

    Re: 7
    
    To all that my deny Christ under threat of death, please know the history
    of those faithful to the death in the past.  Read 4th Maccabbees in the
    Apocrypha.  Especially of the women and her seven sons, who watched as
    all seven were killed and mutilated before her very eyes and then she
    too was killed, ALL chose God...even the youngest boy...strong message. 
    Can you imagine her agony for her "baby boy"!
    
    "May we, the children of Abraham, never think so basely that out of
    cowardice we feign a role unbecoming to us!  For it would be irrational
    if we, who have lived in accordance with truth to old age and have
    maintained in accordance with law the reputation of such a life, should
    now change our course and ourselves become a pattern of impiety to the
    young, in becoing an example of the eating of defiling food.  It would
    be shameful if we should survive for a littel while and during that
    time be a laughing stock to all for our cowardice, and if we should be
    dispised by the tyrant as unmanly, and not protect our divine law even
    to death.  Therefore, O children of Abraham, die nobly for your
    religion!  And you, guards of the tyrant, why do you delay?"
    
    Tell me something.  How do Europeans or whites or whatever you'd like
    to be called, who feel you do a great work in "missionizing" this
    world, answer to this matter of cowardice in the face of death?  Do you
    feel that you are REALLY ready to carry the message of God with that
    sort of level of faith?  Don't you know there are others out here, many
    black people even, who have and WILL die for the lord...Dr. MLK and the
    many who marched with them were willing to die for justice, which is of
    God.  Blacks under the threat of death, during slavery met in the
    backwoods, like the early Christians in the catacombs.  
    
    I don't know but, shucks, let's get some faith going...my goodness!
    
    Playtoe

    re 9
    
    Personally, I will never deny Christ...and even before the inquisitor
    could as I've already told him where I stand...
    
    It's not even in the cards, it's no big decision to make...my eyes see
    beyond this material reality.  
    
    I guess you'll probably call ME and those who would die the FOOLS, and
    would even go as far is to try and take the life or at least not defend
    the life of those who stood firm in their faith...but that's a double
    testimony to one's cowardice, isn't it!  I mean how many denials are
    you gonna make before you get tired of deny God before the wicked?  If
    there gonna kill you, there're gonna kill you...and the life they allow
    you to have after denying God is not a Godly life...how could that be? 
    It is indeed a wretched existence living in the knowledge that you
    turned you back on God...for those who think they are faithful. 
    Ultimately one is forced to abandon the faith, for conscience sake.
    
    Playtoe

    
    
    It really hurts me to hear so many condone the denial of Christ under
    threat of death, or those who aren't sure what they might do...
    
    But I guess that's why this is Christian PERSPECTIVES...not that this
    is for the "DOERS", it's just for the HEARERS...what have I offended
    some of YOU?  Ooops, please forgive me...and if you can't, here on the
    day after Easter, which only the day before we had so many "faithful"
    ones, you may nail me to the cross and crucify me...my goodness.
    
    Playtoe

    Playtoe,
    
    You haven't offended me, because frankly I don't see anyone with a
    knife to your throat or a gun to your head, so your replies are merely
    words.  No action is being required of you.  It is easy to say what
    you'd do sitting safely at your terminal.  For myself and others, we
    are trying to look at this as honestly as we can.  
    
    Not everyone is called to be a martyr...
    
    Ro
    

    I would echo what Ro says Playtoe.  No one here that I can see is
    "condonding" the denial of Christ.  Imo, you have given good and noble 
    reasons why you would adhere to your faith even in the face of death.
    Others here, including myself, have stated they are not so sure what
    they would do.  
    
    The story you cited about the woman and her 7 sons being put to death 
    as they proclaimed their faith is inspiring, in that it demonstrates 
    someone being true to their Higher Power as Allison referred to it, for 
    when we are not, there is a price to pay in suffering.  But I have to 
    be honest, I don't know that I could do the same thing, especially if 
    it comes to a child or my children.  If it comes to my own death, I
    think the choice would be easier, but I don't know myself that well.  
    I do know "cowardice" is still alive and well in me.  Also, like Bubba, 
    I tend to think I could do more good for my fellow human beings alive 
    than dead, but then again, that's an assumption and in some circumstances, 
    probably an erroneous one.  
    
    Anyway, be happy in your own level of faith.
    
    Karen
    

   Playtoe,

   The last thing I'd call you is a fool for your beliefs.  Those who
   would cause me to wonder about them.

   My own case is all I spoke of.  There were at the times of stress
   great faith that the "test" was aimed at the core of me, and it's
   goal was to strengthen me not break me.  The fact that I didn't do
   great harm to anyone or end up in an asylum attests my beliefs.  I
   will not say that I didn't hurt myself at times.  My beliefs are 
   such that I draw from life not from the literal text.

   Allison

	What about denying Christ when the circumstances are a little
less extraordinary?  What about the times that neither your life nor
your children are in jeopardy?

	What about the times you've foregone saying grace in public at
mealtime, if that is your custom at home?  Or what about the time the group
you were with was a desirable one to a part of, and you didn't want to
appear to be not one of them?

	What if a denial under extreme conditions could be forgiven, but
not if it merely caused embarrassment?

Peace,
Richard

    RE: 14
    
    Well, guns have been to my head but I didn't crap my pants, don't
    bother me much at all...I'm SERIOUSLY not a cowardly kind of guy!
    
    If you ASK me to do something while trying to frighten or intimidate
    me, the FIRST thing I'm going to do is get the FEAR tactic out of the
    picture.  If I am to deny Christ, it will not be "under that threat" of
    anything...I don't make ANY decision based upon fear...bottomline.
    
    If you try to intimidate me, I'm calling you bluff everytime...Don't
    play me...and that's what it becomes a con game.
    
    If you want to look at this thing honestly and reasonably I REALLY
    suggest 4th Maccabees!  It offers both sides of the coin.
    
    You might say, well I'm not BRAVE enough to do what that woman did. 
    But I tell you this until she did it she didn't know she was that brave
    either!  You may be SCARED to death, but you make the RIGHT decision at
    all times...and then you learn the power of God and then you learn how
    to be strong standing on his word.  But you can't learn the power of
    God and the fear of the Lord and courage of the saints being cowards.
    
    And cowards aren't fit to carry God's message to the people....isn't
    that true?  
    
    I'm not judgeing anyone...I'm stating the principles and the history of
    cases known.  And not judging you but the WORDS you spoke, they sound
    familiar and consistent with cowards..."If a gun was placed to my head
    I'd deny Christ!"  what are people here saying?  "Especially if my KIDS
    life was at stake"...ridiculous, it's for the KIDS sake that you
    should STAND STRONG on your faith...that's what the bible says!
    
    What?  Am I judging YOU, or the decision you said you'd make.  You can
    change your decision but you can't change you.
    
    Playtoe

    Re: 15
    
>    I would echo what Ro says Playtoe.  No one here that I can see is
>    "condonding" the denial of Christ.  Imo, you have given good and noble 
    
    I'm not going to point fingers, but there are a few here that feel that
    "under the threat of death" is GOOD CAUSE to deny Christ...like Peter
    did, perhaps.
    
    The story of the Women and her sons, and the book of 4 Maccabees is
    MORE than an inspiring story, it is a philosophical outlook fear as a
    tactic of persuasion.
    
>    when we are not, there is a price to pay in suffering.  But I have to 
 >   be honest, I don't know that I could do the same thing, especially if 
>    it comes to a child or my children.  If it comes to my own death, I
    
    If you study that book YOU WILL be able to do the same thing, and
    ESPECIALLY if comes to a child or your children...YOU can do it!
    
    Or don't you want that?  Is that the real question?
    
    There's no guarentee that you WILL die if you don't DENY Christ, they
    may try to kill you (indeed) but that doesn't mean they can...people
    have survived some serious situations.  But then again there's no
    guarantee they will let you live if you deny Christ...sometimes they
    just kill the coward anyway because the coward is contemptible to the
    sight.  It is deplorable even to you, no doubt, to see a person get
    down on their knees a beg for their life...or don't you think it's so
    bad?
    
    I just say simply, take fear OUT of the decision making process and
    you've got a chance at righteousness...the love of God cannot be
    perfected in fear.
    
    Playtoe

    
    re 16
    
>  My beliefs are such that I draw from life not from the literal text.
    
    "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word
    was God.  In the WORD was LIFE and the LIFE was the LIGHT of men."
    
    Now which life are you drawing from?  I know no other LIFE GIVING
    source but the Word of God...what other life is there to draw from?
    
    Taken literally, figuratively, allegorically, all three ways gets you
    something good...it's when none of them effect  you that you perhaps
    got trouble!
    
    Playtoe

    re 17
    
    Good questions.  But if you can't deal with the blatant and extreme
    cases all in between is blurry.  You map the perimeter first, stake it
    out and then clear out the area.   
    
    Denial is not ignorance or forgetfulness.  If you ignor the question,
    the guy puts and a gun to your head and you just keep on doing what you
    were doing, keeping walking, and the dude stands back there "HEY, where
    come back here, I asked you a question"...it happens like that to some
    who have that kind of persona!  Or if you forget the question..."Ah,
    what was the question again"...it can be annoying to some but to others
    it may give another kind of signal, which may cause them to leave  you
    alone...my friends, "resist the devil and he will flee from you."
    
    And you may look back and question that last statement because of all
    the persecuted Christians, right?  But I'll tell you this the
    persecuted ones were not fearless ones in Christ...look at Paul,
    escaping by the hairs of his chinnychinchin sometimes, but he would put
    himself in those positions, being a minister.  Furthermore, you don't
    have to go broadcasting you believe in Christ, you just don't deny him
    when asked!  If the don't know you worship God, they may think you're
    just a gentile, doing good by the nature of your good heart...you don't
    go preaching to the devil!  Unless you got him bound and gagged!
    
    All of this is straight from scripture....
    
    Playtoe

Note 439.21
    
>    Good questions.  But if you can't deal with the blatant and extreme
>    cases all in between is blurry.   

Okay, in the extreme, if someone was threatening my life to get me to deny
Christ, then I've got to assume this person is mentally unbalanced.  I have
no problem with lying to someone who is deranged if I believe that doing so
will spare my life.

You see, there aren't enough details in .0 for me to say what I would do.

>    You map the perimeter first, stake it
>    out and then clear out the area.

Too militaristic of an approach for me.

Peace,
Richard

    I just love listening to people elaborate on what they are going
  to do in a given situation. We are all going to be brave and strong
  and true to our ideals and .... well you get the idea.
    It has been my experience that when the going gets rough that people
  will surprise you. Often those that seem like the least likely to
  hang in there, not only do so, but also do things that truly astonish
  us.
    Several million years ago when I was in the Coast Guard, at one time,
  I worked for an "old" CPO nearing retirement. He was a shy quiet
  man who said his main ambition in life was to stay out of trouble
  until he hung up his uniform and started collecting his pension 
     One Friday at the weekly review and inspection he was called up and
  awarded the USCG Gold Lifesaving Medal, the highest honor a coastie can
  receive. Normally you have to get killed to get this medal. At his last 
  duty station he dove off a small boat in the middle of Winter and swam 
  through freezing water to rescue a person off a burning boat. Then did this
  again to rescue a second person. He suffered frostbite and second degree
  burns and had to be hospitalized for a few weeks afterwards. To meet this
  man and talk to him you'd never believe he was capable of such a thing.
     Now I'd like to think that had I been in his place I'd have been just
  as heroic, but to tell you the truth I can't say with any certainty just
  how I'd react. 
     It is pretty easy to say just what we are going to do in a given 
  situation from the safety of our desks while pounding away on a keyboard.
  What I might do if someone sticks a gun in my ear and gives me an ultimatum
  is a different matter. I don't believe any of us knows just what we would
  do in such a situation. Deep down inside I have a feeling that I would
  be real agreeable to the person with the gun to my head. You want my
  money, OK you got it. You want me to take my clothes off and to act
  like a duck in my birthday suit...no problem. You want me to say the
  earth is flat...just like a pancake ain't it ?         
     I have read about people who risked their lives to hide Jews from
  the Nazis in WWII who still don't know why they did it or where they
  found the courage. At the other end of the scale of have read about 
  those during the Stalin years who would inform on friends and family
  members, even making up false accusations against them, to save their
  own skins. 
     Can any of us really say what we would if our life was on the line ?
    

                                                               Mike

    
    Well, since I am not a Christian, this wouldn't be an issue for me.
    However, I'm sure there are many other things I could be threatened
    with.....and I have *no* idea what I would do.
    
    Carole

    Yeah know Playtoe, you're shame-based tactics have been used through
    out history to manipulate people in the name of religion.  I'm going to
    tell you once more that I do not know what I'd do and drop it.  Your
    bullying hasn't swayed whatever decision I would make, because I
    believe in the moment of crisis that I'd turn to the 'Holy Spirit' or
    whatever we choose to call that Light within and try to do what that
    voice told me to do.  That is how I try to make most choices in my
    life (big or small).  In doing that I would be true to myself and in
    being true to myself, I'd be true to God.  TYVM.
    
    Ro
    

    Mike, that was well said.

    I recently read an article about the My Lai massacre.  What really
    moved me as I read it was hearing about those few heroic individuals who
    did not participate in the massacre.  One of the soldiers refused to
    fire on civilians even when Lt. Calley pointed a gun at him.  Another
    soldier, a helicopter pilot, landed his helicopter directly in the line
    of fire.  Yet another pleaded repeatedly during the day that this must
    stop.

    We can admire those people, and yet the article also described one
    soldier who did participate in the massacre, and who is obsessed with
    guilt about what he had done.  And I have to wonder if I would have
    done had I been one of the soldiers there.  Would I have been one of
    the few who refused to participate?  I honestly can't say.  I'd like to
    believe that I would have been like that helicopter pilot, or that if I
    had lived in Nazi Germany I would have risked my life to save the lives
    of Jews, but I honestly can't say for sure what I would have done.  And
    when I think about someone wracked with guilt over having *not* been a
    hero, I think that we need to remind ourselves of the importance of
    forgiveness of self and others.  We all make mistakes in our lives, in
    the most mundane of situations; how much more difficult it is to do the
    right thing in difficult times.

    -- Mike

Playtoe (.18),
        
    <<I'm not judgeing anyone...I'm stating the principles and the history of
    cases known.  And not judging you but the WORDS you spoke, they sound
    familiar and consistent with cowards..."If a gun was placed to my head
    
    You're not judging yet you say 'consistent with cowards' - labeling
    someone a coward is judging someone, IMO.
    
    <I'd deny Christ!"  what are people here saying?  "Especially if my KIDS
    life was at stake"...ridiculous, it's for the KIDS sake that you
    should STAND STRONG on your faith...that's what the bible says!
    
    And just what if the voice within said 'save the child at all costs,
    even if it means having to lie and deny Christ', perhaps God had a
    greater purpose for this child's life that to be senselessly, brutally
    slain.  Perhaps this 'act of cowardness' (as you'd label it) actually
    served the greater good by saving the life of the child.  You can judge
    if you like Playtoe, but you nor I are aware of God's greater plan in
    any situation.
    
    Ro
    
    

   Playtoe,

   At one point in my history I felt so shamed by religion for who I am,
   that I professed to be atheist.  I was fooling me and sometimes others.
   Some speak in terms of "what I'd do if...", I was speaking in the "what
   I did when...".  There are many metaphoric guns in life, I have felt the
   sharp point of the bullet.  The strength of my beliefs have surprized
   even me.

   The one thing that bothers me most is the condition that some priests
   and minsters of the faith have tried to lay on me which is the
   conditional "if what you say is what you believe than you are denying
   God and Christ because it cannot be true".  That is an attack on the
   very core of me.  Those who spoke at the time would have me kill my
   very self to meet the criteria of the true believer in their eyes.
   I am unable to kill, not even a piece of me.  

   If your explaining your point of view I accept it.  It comes
   dangerously close to experiences I have had before with the "Church".
   I would walk away not looking back rather than suffer that abuse.

   Peace,
   Allison

    It is kind of interesting to consider a sort of reverse example:
    Galileo.  He was accused of denying Christian truths in his scientific
    research, and he was given the ultimatum to "deny geocentrism or die". 
    He denied geocentrism.  Since we know in retrospect that he was right
    on this scientific issue, and the Church was wrong, should he have died
    for the truth?  Or was he wiser doing what he did?  In hindsight, one
    could argue that he did the right thing by saving his skin.

    I do think there are times when people are right to die for what they
    believe in.  I don't think that every situation necessarily calls for
    this kind of sacrifice, though.  Sometimes it is a tough call, and I
    don't really know what the answer is.  When I think of the early
    Quakers, in the 1600s, who were horribly persecuted in both England and
    America, I feel a tremendous sense of awe for the strength of their
    convictions, and sadness for what they went through.  A Quaker was
    hanged on Boston Common, her only crime being that she was a Quaker.  

    These early Quakers did not glorify their suffering; if you read any
    journals or other writings from that time, you find that they hated
    what they were going through.  Yet the strength of their conviction led
    them to do what they did because the times demanded them of it.  We
    live in an age of religious tolerance, but it was not always so; it is
    hard for us to imagine people being tortured or killed for violating
    the established religious dogma.  In terrible times, people are
    sometimes driven to act in ways that we in our comfort deem heroic. The
    early Quakers played a major part in bringing about greater religious
    tolerance in England in America; the strength and courage of these
    individuals, and the suffering that they bore in the face of continuous
    persecution, did have a powerful affect, and helped change the
    prevailing standards of religious tolerance, for the better.

    I would not wish any of that on anyone, and I think that difficult
    decisions like that are heroic precisely because they are so difficult. 
    I don't really know how to answer this question.  Is martyrdom always
    the right thing?  I don't know that it is; in any case, I think it is
    easy to stand back and criticize others for not being martyrs. 
    Individuals have to decide for themselves these questions.  I have
    always felt that way about civil disobedience, for example; I respect
    and admire those special people who would go to jail (or suffer
    beatings or worse) to protest an injustice, but I suspect that not
    everyone is called to be a martyr.

    -- Mike

    RE: .11
    
    I would like to be called a citizen of the USA and a Christian. Thats
    it.
    
    Marc H.

    Well, it's a natural human emotion to "feel good" when people honestly
    agree with you and I'll be the first to say that I'm feelin' much
    better right now.  There's been only one "bullying" type note in this
    entire string and one "pray for you" type of off-line mail.  That 'bout
    sums it up for me.

    I had always believed that this thing called "Christianity" came, well,
    in some "natural" sort of way.  That following a few relatively basic
    precepts it all fell into place.  All of a sudden 'WHAM'!  I felt as
    though I was being "bullied" and/or "shamed" into some mold.  That is
    not, in my estimation, the best way to get to a teen!

    Actually, a "real" incident occurred not too long after that Sunday
    School Class.  The threat of death was not exactly real but for those
    of you who have experienced USMC boot camp you can identify with the
    fear that you have when your senior DI goes on a rampage!

    I was at USMCRD Parris Island, South Carolina.  One evening I was glancing
    through my (issued) Bible.  The Drill Instructor came by and ripped it
    from my hands.  The profanities he yelled were certainly not repeatable
    in this forum ... but it was along the lines of my reading such insidious
    and repulsive propaganda - a waste of my time - poisoning my mind - a
    bunch of dribble written by a bunch of old women and wimps ... you get
    the point.

    He proceeded to rip the book apart, tore it to S-H-R-E-A-D-S.  I was
    then ordered to pick up the pieces, take it outside of the squad bay,
    and, burn it ... and ... along the way I was to collect the other
    Bibles from 78 other buys in my platoon ... and burn theirs ... burn
    'em all so that our minds were not corrupted by this seditious
    literature.

    While were were watching the conflagration our SDI actually sang to us!
    To the tune of "Bringing in the Sheaves":

    		"Burning in the morning
    		 Burning up the Bible
    		 Burning up the thoughts that really warp our minds ..."
    		
    Believe me - as I came to learn and appreciate there was a reason for
    this "show" ... but ... I recalled that time in Sunday School class.

    The other scenario of doing harm to one's children was even better and
    more forceful.  I've got two of the most beautiful girls that ever
    walked the face of this earth and you wouldn't BELIEVE what I would
    do to protect them!!

    Bubba

    
    
    When you really think about what was proposed in .0, we are really
    only talking about the 'venial' sin of lying, right?  Who *cares*
    what you say as long as you know in your heart what you believe
    when you are faced with a situation like this.  Isn't what's in
    your heart the only thing that matters?
    
    Carole

.29> I do think there are times when people are right to die for what they
.29> believe in.

As a soldier, I have no intention of dieing for what I believe in.  As
General Patton said, "you don't win wars by dieing for your country - you
win wars by making the other poor dumb <deleted> die for his country."

Bubba

    As a Quaker, I have a slightly different perspective than Patton's. 
    :-)
    
    -- Mike

Re:  439.33

  >As a soldier, I have no intention of dieing for what I believe in.  As
  >General Patton said, "you don't win wars by dieing for your country - you
  >win wars by making the other poor dumb <deleted> die for his country."

Two counter-examples.

  1)  Jesus Christ won the greatest battle of all by dying.

  2)  Rev 12:11  They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by
      the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so
      much as to shrink from death.

Indeed, according to the Bible (i.e. God), dying for your faith in
God is worth more than your life.

Collis

    RE: 31
    
    Bubba,
      What was the reason for the show?
    
    Marc H.

.35> Indeed, according to the Bible (i.e. God), dying for your faith in
.35> God is worth more than your life.

I guess that we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter.  First of
all I don't particularly believe everything that I read:  and second, I
like to think that God gave me a brain that put me somewhat above that
of (so called) lower forms of life - I intend to use that brain.

.36> What was the reason for the show?

The stress and emotions of combat are ... unique.  The simplistic act
of destroying and burning a Bible is a matter of "conditioning" one to
that of stress.  Believe me, burning a Bible can't hold a candle to
killing another human being.  It's all part of the training.  Let's face
a simple fact that when you put on that uniform you must accept that you
will most likely be faced with killing or being killed.  Not a simple 
emotional task to deal with.

Bubba

    Re: .38
    
    Thanks Bubba.....makes sense now to me. Also follows the techniques
    that a fraternity brother told me happened to him in Paris Island;
    i.e. tear them down....then build them up.
    
    Marc H.

Re: .31  USMC-ordered Bible burning

That's a remarkable story, Jerry.  I wonder how that story would have sounded
to a congressional committee?  Makes me glad I was never subjected to the
dehumanizing experience of boot camp.  I'd have the greatest respect for a
recruit who refused the order to burn the Bibles, and the greatest disrespect
for the DI.

				-- Bob

     Didn't *any* of the recruits resist?

     I  have  to  tell  you  that  that  story  raised  my  blood  pressure
     considerably.  I felt really bad for you and for your comrades.  But I
     can't even imagine nobody raising a stink about this incident.

     Oh, and how was it eventually explained?

     Interesting topic, by the way.  Gave me a  chance  to  reflect  on  my
     thoughts  on what it means to give up one's life for a higher purpose.
     Thanx.

     Peace,

     Alvin

.41> Didn't *any* of the recruits resist?

Not by the wildest stretch of the imagination!  Only a fool of the highest
caliber would have resisted.

Sorry, but, it's a very necessary part of the conditioning and training.
Unfortunate ... but necessary.

Bubba

    Re: Bible Burning
    
    The purpose of the Bible burning "show" is perfectly consistent with
    the intent of war.  To win a war, you've got to have an armed force 
    of killing machines.  Recruits can no longer be thought of as people,
    just as they have to be trained that what they will kill are not
    people.  As a DI you've got to de-programme *anything* in a recruit 
    that might interfere with this prime directive.  Right??  Everything
    must be DE-humanized, and most definately, DE-spiritualized. 
    
    Who would think of raising a stink about this?  After all, if enough
    people did, there'd eventually be no one left to go to war.  And we 
    can't have THAT now can we??
    
    somewhat fasciously,
    
    Karen
    
    p.s.  Alvin, being an agnostic as you are, what was it about this 
          incident that raised your blood pressure so? (Inquiring minds
    	  want to know :-) )

    -1:  now that's an interesting way to spell facetious!  
    
    pardon moi!

     RE: .43

>    ....  Alvin, being an agnostic as you are, what was it about this 
>          incident that raised your blood pressure so? ................

     Well, Karen, I'm  not  sure  I  reacted  that  way  *because*  I'm  an
     agnostic, but rather because I felt empathy, as a human being, for the
     people put in that situation.  If it had been an  atheist  forced  to,
     say, read the Bible and then be baptized at the point of a gun (or the
     discretion of a DI), I would have felt just as bad.

     As an agnostic I don't think it's possible to prove the  existence  or
     non-existence  of  God  (or  gods), therefore both the Atheist and the
     Believer have a valid and valuable point of view.

     Why did you think an agnostic wouldn't react as I did?

     Think "Peace",

     Alvin

    Alvin,  
    
    I didn't mean to imply by my question that your or any atheist's or 
    agnostic's point of view is somehow less than valid than *anyone*
    else's.  I was just not sure what you were reacting to, and since it 
    revolved around an incident with the Bible, I thought I'd inquire 
    further.  My apologies if my question seemed disrespectful to you in
    any way.  In hindsight, tacking it on the end of a flippant note and 
    the wording of it, was a less than insightful move on my part. 
    
    mae culpae,
    
    Karen

    At the time of the USMC "incident" I was in the midst of severely
    questioning my "faith".  It suddenly occurred to me that these were
    merely words on paper ... transient at best ... why should I be
    concerned ... 

    It wasn't until later that I genuinely "lost" my beliefs.

    Bubba

   Karen,

   I for one am glad the question was asked.  

   Alvin, 

   Not that I wanted to see on you on the spot but, your the first person 
   who could clearly explain the difference between athiest and agnostic.
   I will likely carry that explanation with me forever, just on its
   clarity.

   Thank you,
   Allison

     RE: .46

>    I didn't mean to imply by my question that your or any atheist's or 
>    agnostic's point of view is somehow less than valid than *anyone*
>    else's.  ........................................................... 

     I didn't read any such implication  into  it.   I  thought  it  was  a
     sincere question and I was tickled that you asked.

>    .......  I was just not sure what you were reacting to, and since it 
>    revolved around an incident with the Bible, I thought I'd inquire 
>    further.  ..........................................................

     I hope I answered your question satisfactorily.

>    ........  My apologies if my question seemed disrespectful to you in
>    any way.  In hindsight, tacking it on the end of a flippant note and 
>    the wording of it, was a less than insightful move on my part. 
>    
>    mae culpae,

     You have nothing to  feel  sorry  for.   Thanx,  though,  for  feeling
     concerned.

     Peace,

     Alvin

    re: 22
    
>>    You map the perimeter first, stake it
>>    out and then clear out the area.

>Too militaristic of an approach for me.
    
    Yes, well, I'll take the word of Paul that this is WAR!  Between the
    forces of good and evil..
    
    It's the only way to win THE victory...I'm in it to win it.
    
    Playtoe

    RE: 25
    
    Hummm...God is a manipulater too...cause he sure put me to shame. 
    Saved a WRETCH like me...
    
    Playtoe

    RE: 27
    
>    You're not judging yet you say 'consistent with cowards' - labeling
>    someone a coward is judging someone, IMO.
    
    Yes, I've not judged you!  I have not labelled you...you can twist it
    if you want to but that sounds like a personal dilemma.  I'm an
    attorney, I present the case.  It must be a good one, however, cause
    you already feel you've been judged guilty...Who brought the charge is
    what I want to know?
    
    Playtoe

    re: 28
    
>   God and Christ because it cannot be true".  That is an attack on the
>   very core of me.  Those who spoke at the time would have me kill my
    
    I, and perhaps priests and ministers alike, would probably wish you
    didn't see as much an attack on the core of YOU as it is an attack on
    the core of your belief and the two are separate.  
    
    You do a great disservice to the priesthood and the ministry to accuse
    them of personal attacks.  If if weren't for the fact that you we
    talking about religious beliefs, priest and minister wouldn't even have
    questioned you.   Do you think while in school, and in regard to
    religion "life" itself is the school, the teacher is attacking the very
    core of you when they challenge the logic behind an answer you've given
    in response to a question?  I hope not.  Well the same reflection that
    the teacher inspires in you to reassess your answer should be the same
    response you give to questions of a religious kind...but because
    religion is central to life it makes it difficult to separate the two,
    I know.  But at first in public school the same was true there, and it
    took time to get use to and trust that the teacher wasn't making a
    personal attack...if you spent that much time with priests and
    ministers you'd also learn to do the same with them...
    
    So many people here who accuse me of personal attacks, are really
    expressing this immaturity (with all respects) of senses in religious
    issues...I understand it and am sensitive to that, but really it is a
    good thing I do in the long run...wouldn't you say it benefited you to
    learn to separate personal attacks from idea attacks?
    
    I've gone over this a thousand times.  And Moderators have a hard time
    finding the problem with my notes, so it becomes a matter of "if the
    noter FEELS it is an attack then it is an attack"...which doesn't cater
    to justice, but to the immaturity of the person....which is more
    harmful than good IMO.
    
    Playtoe

<    
<>   God and Christ because it cannot be true".  That is an attack on the
<>   very core of me.  Those who spoke at the time would have me kill my
<    
<    I, and perhaps priests and ministers alike, would probably wish you
<    didn't see as much an attack on the core of YOU as it is an attack on
<    the core of your belief and the two are separate.  
<    
<    You do a great disservice to the priesthood and the ministry to accuse
<    them of personal attacks.  If if weren't for the fact that you we
<    talking about religious beliefs, priest and minister wouldn't even have
<    questioned you.   Do you think while in school, and in regard to
<    religion "life" itself is the school, the teacher is attacking the very
<    core of you when they challenge the logic behind an answer you've given
<    in response to a question?  I hope not.  Well the same reflection that

   Playtoe,
   	
   My life is sufficiently different from most that the context is not
   clear to you.  At the time I was in my teens and considering suicide
   over an issue that has been part of my life since first memory.  What
   was being challenged was unusual and not a theorhetical discussion.
   I will elaborate in the next new note that I will create.

   Regarding your style.  Yes it causes me difficulty personally.  While
   I can relate to the truths and beliefs you spekof your tenor is harsh
   to my ears.  I am very wary of many things as I was abused when I was
   young and your words though I know they can't hurt me do bring forth
   alarm.

   Peace,
   Allison

     I was talking to a neighbor of mine today about this note.
    She is a nice young woman and a member in good standing of
    the local Baptist church. I guess that qualifies her as a
    "Christian" at least it seems like reasonably good set
    credentials to me. 
     She basically agreed with with Richard. That in such a case you
    are dealing with a deranged person and your only obligation is
    get the heck out this situation ASAP. She also added an interesting
    point in saying that if she got her brains blown out that this would
    leave her two year old daughter Jeannie an orphan (she is a single
    parent). "What would God think of me if I got myself killed by nut
    case and left her without a mother ?" She feels her first and most
    important obligation is to Jeannie's welfare and that God would 
    think she had her priorities screwed up if she choose being a martyr
    over being a mother.
                                                             

                                                               Mike
      
 

Note 439.51

>    Yes, well, I'll take the word of Paul that this is WAR!  Between the
>    forces of good and evil..
    
>    It's the only way to win THE victory...I'm in it to win it.
    
Well, okay, my friend.  Just don't go and shoot yourself in the foot in the
process.

Peace,
Richard

    Minor rathole:

    I just realized that I got it backwards in my earlier comment on Galileo;
    he wasn't asked to deny geocentrism, but (as memory serves me) he was
    asked to affirm it, or at least deny heliocentrism.   That may not be
    technically correct either, but it ought to be close enough.

    Not an important point, really, but hey, it's after 10 PM and I'm
    waiting on my laundry to finish, so writing this note seemed like a
    good time killer.  :-)

    -- Mike

    IMHO, it has been my experience that until you walk the walk you really
    cannot talk the talk.   I think it's important to realize that all of
    us can rationalize what we would do up to the eleventh hour and when
    actually confronted with the situation could do exactly the opposite. 
    I sincerely hope that I am never confronted with such a decision but in
    lesser delimas I have found it much easier to live with myself if I
    honored my integrity.
    
    
    Ellen
    

    RE: 55
    
 >  My life is sufficiently different from most that the context is not
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    I doubt that...we, people, have more in common than different, and you
    may be overlooking that.
    
>   Regarding your style.  Yes it causes me difficulty personally.  While
>   I can relate to the truths and beliefs you spekof your tenor is harsh
>   to my ears.  I am very wary of many things as I was abused when I was
<   young and your words though I know they can't hurt me do bring forth
>   alarm.
    
    When I was young, my father, could just talk to me and I'd start
    crying.  It was the "idea" of wrong that hurt me, more than a whopping
    for doing wrong...
    
    I think you might need to cultivate more inner strength, as I did.  I
    mean, as I grew older I began to see how weak HEARTED (not weak minded)
    I was to CRY when I'm verbally disciplined.  Actually, I still do cry
    when disciplined...not "boohoo" like I use to, but a tear roles every
    now and then sometimes.
    
    I used to say, "Don't mind those tears, my HEART is bigger than me." 
    Even when I was married, my HEART was to big for me.  My mind couldn't
    reason with the feelings of my heart.  That's why I study so much and
    try to learn and to speak what I know to be true and right and good. 
    And it's also why I don't let feeling stand in my way.  And why I ask
    "Why do you INTERPRET those feelings the way you do?"  Because I could
    have misinterpreted the feelings my heart was sending to my mind.  The
    feelings were RIGHT but my mind's interpretation "fell short of the
    glory of God" or "fell short of my heart"...God dwells in the heart.
    
    Allison, what I'm saying is LIFE and LIGHT to those who receive...you
    are NOT unusual, your's is NOT an unusual case, open your eyes and look
    around, and you'll find that some have no shoes, then again some have
    no feet...you are NOT the most worse off on this planet, not even in
    your own locale...look around we're all in the same boat.
    
    Let's discuss this "theoretically" however, and you take it home as you
    feel you can.  I can't take it home for you.

    RE: 56
    
>     She basically agreed with with Richard. That in such a case you
>    are dealing with a deranged person and your only obligation is
>    get the heck out this situation ASAP. She also added an interesting
>    point in saying that if she got her brains blown out that this would
>    leave her two year old daughter Jeannie an orphan (she is a single
>    parent). "What would God think of me if I got myself killed by nut
>    case and left her without a mother ?" She feels her first and most
    
    NOW, you see my point.  She is in this case, not letting FEAR determine
    the answer, she is reasoning now.  And that's all I'm saying, don't be
    a coward.  If someone put's a gun to your and say's "Deny Christ or
    Die", DON'T deny Christ because you FEAR for your life.  But if in
    clear reasoning you can see that this person is deranged and subject to
    blow your head off as a result, I think the scripture says something
    about "settling out of court", and not letting things go to judgement. 
    I'd say what the person wanted me to say, and God knows MY HEART, I
    wasn't turning my back on HIM because I feared what a Man would do, but
    this is not a man before me, but a beast, a deranged animal.  
    
    I always, speak of LOT and how in his case, each night he had to
    repent.  Same thing applies hear, Lot didn't FEAR anything, he was just
    doing what he had to do to keep a job and stay safe.  But sometimes
    people DO FEAR for their lives...and this FEAR is what I'm saying is
    not a good factor in decision making...do you understand me?
    
    Playtoe

    Re: 57
    
    RIGHT!...I can relate to that...I'm quite aware of that.  But let me
    asure you I'm no Barney Phife, and this isn't Andy of Mayberry!
    
    Playtoe

    Re 59
    
    Right, Ellen.  I agree.  And heck we're just talking that talk
    now...and we have people already admitting they'd drop their integrity
    if threatened with death...I was just pointing out to them that that
    would be cowardly...as necessary as they might think it is in that
    situation;-)
    
    Playtoe

   Ah Playtoe,

   You made your point, you didn't understand mine.  

<    Allison, what I'm saying is LIFE and LIGHT to those who receive...you
<    are NOT unusual, your's is NOT an unusual case, open your eyes and look
<    around, and you'll find that some have no shoes, then again some have
<    no feet...you are NOT the most worse off on this planet, not even in
<    your own locale...look around we're all in the same boat.

   This is the stuff shaming is made of.  Yes, I do have it better than
   most.  I made a choice to have it that way.  I've also depended on 
   others for survival at one point in my life.  I have cuts on my hands
   from knife fights and cuts on my soul from being abused.  I am better
   as I am no longer a survivor.  I have enough strength that come from
   the journey to the edge of insanity and back.  That trip changes things
   and people.  Are we in the same boat?   Sure, just some of us have 
   decided it's time to start rowing, it's a long trip to dry ground .
   
    
<    Let's discuss this "theoretically" however, and you take it home as you
<    feel you can.  I can't take it home for you.

   Theory is very nice.  What I had written about wasn't theory.  As far
   as taking a theoretical discussion of what I'd do... Well that's like
   reviewing ones past with intent to change it rather than understand it.
   If you can understand the past you learn a tool for the future, and
   just maybe use it when the need arises.  Under that understanding my
   worst failures are then crowning sucess as each has taught me something
   about me or the world I live in that I can use.

   Allison

    Re 63
    
    Dear Playtoe, thank you for your response, however I would like to
    offer another perspective regarding the matter.  I'm not so sure that a 
    person would necessarily be a coward for opting to choose life over
    death.  What happens inside a persons heart and head is not necessarily
    what is expressed to others.  What I'm trying to say is that sometimes
    it's best to let people think what they want and wait for a more advan-
    tageous time to deal with the situation. ;-)
    
    ellen
    

    Re: 65
    
>    Dear Playtoe, thank you for your response, however I would like to
>    offer another perspective regarding the matter.  I'm not so sure that a 
>    person would necessarily be a coward for opting to choose life over
>    death.  
    
    I think it would depend on their conception of "life", physical life or
    spiritual life?  And the difference was pointed out by Jesus when he
    said, "Fear not the one who can kill the body, but fear him who can
    kill the body and cast thy soul into hell", in others "fear God" only.
    
    So "life in God, through Christ" is the only life...the rest, Jesus
    said, "are already dead, never had life".  This is Chrristian
    Perspective.
    
    >What happens inside a persons heart and head is not necessarily
>    what is expressed to others.  
    
    Nor is it necessarily accurately conceived in the mind what is
    happening inside a person's heart and head...and usually the causes the
    misexpression of reality.
    
    >What I'm trying to say is that sometimes
>    it's best to let people think what they want and wait for a more advan-
>    tageous time to deal with the situation. ;-)
    
    I hear you...and I know what you're saying, believe me.  But having had
    much experience in religious counselling, it's about like this...you
    take a hoe, bust the ground open (gently if the ground is soft, a
    little firmer if hard), plant the seed, cover it with dirt again, what
    a few days, maybe a week or so, and you'll see a sprout breaking
    through the earth, put some more water on it, and it'll grow, keep
    watering it.  And when the harvest comes you'll have something to reap.
    
    You may want to forego planting on a rainy day, but don't wait too long
    because it could run the harvest into the dead of winter, and then what
    you got...nothing!
    
    It's one thing to let people think what they want to think, we can't do
    anything about that...but it's quite another to let people think YOU
    think something which you don't, or even agree and condone that which
    you don't....it's a long story...but I do understand your concerns.
    
    As far as "cowards get another chance"...no I don't think so, what good
    would that do?  "Gird up thy loins"..."Be strong and of good courage",
    is what Christ exhorts us to do.  
    
    Furthermore, I specialize in removing one's "fears"...and I have
    removed the "mote" from my eye and DO see clearly how to remove that of
    my brother's.  And know the anguish I went through in overcoming my
    fears, but I KNOW the JOY that springs forth in the morning, after
    facing my fears and standing firm in the face of adversity.
    
    The moral to learn is:
    
    When that which you thought is meant for your ultimate destruction
    turns out to be for your ultimate good"...
    
    

    Re:66
    
    Dear Playtoe,
    
    I understand what you are saying and perhaps we have a difference of
    opinion (definition) of God.
    
    I should like to share some of my thoughts about this subject, using my
    definition.
    
    This definition is a short form:  "To me, God is the Creator and the
    Caretaker for all things.  It is my belief, that each of us is on a 
    journey thru this life and our mission is to learn to love one another,
    and part of that learning is to teach (and learn) that the Universe is
    a friendly, safe place to be and that every experience we have has a
    blessing in it.  I feel that God loves everything that he creates and
    his creations are perfect just the way they are."
    
    >I think it would depend on their conception of "life", physical life
    or spiritual life?
    
    IMO, whatever a persons conception of life is, it is their truth and
    deserves to be respected.
    
    >And the difference was pointed out by Jesus when he said. Fear not the
    one who can kill the body, but fear him who can kill the body and cast
    thy soul into hell, in others "fear God" only.
    
    I feel this applys to the individual and his responsibility for
    him/herself.  It is my belief that our thoughts can cause dis-ease and
    cause hell in our lives.  I have no fear of God.  I have a real respect
    for him.
    
    >So "life in God, through Christ" is the only life...the rest, Jesus
    sair, "are already dead, never had life".  This is Christian
    Perspective.
    
    I believe that Christ is a "Nature" (love) within every person and
    without using it we appear to be separated from the truth.  I don't
    believe that only Christians have this nature.
    
    >Nor is it necessarily accurately conceived in the mind what is
    happening inside a person's heart and head...and usually the causes the
    misexpression of reality.
    
    I think it's important to realize that what ever the circumstance, the
    person(s) involved are acting from his truth (reality) at the moment
    and doing the best that he/she can.
    
    >I hear you...and I know what you're saying, believe me.  But having
    had much experience in religions counselling, it's about like
    this...you take a hoe, bust the ground open (gently if the ground is
    soft, a little firmer if hard), plant the seed, cover it with dirt
    again, what a few days, maybe a week or so, and you'll see a sprout
    breaking through the earth, put some more water on it, and it'll grow,
    keep watering it.  And when the harvest comes you'll have something to
    reap.
    
    It is my belief, that if you want to encourage someone to believe the
    way that you do, the best possible thing you can do is to demonstrate
    your belief by living it (consistantly).  If your belief is love, then
    be loving.
    
    >You may want to forego planting on a rainy day, but don't wait too
    long because it could run the harvest into the dead of winter, and then
    what you got...nothing!
    
    I believe that if I share something, or have something shared with me,
    and for some reason the information is not received at that time,
    another opportunity will present itself if the information is important
    either to the other person or to me.  Also, I believe that when the
    student is ready the teacher will appear.
    
    >It's one thing to let people think what they want to think, we can't
    do anything about that...but it's quite another to let people think YOU
    think something which you don't, or even agree and condone that which
    you don't...it's a long story...but I do understand your concerns.
    
    Again, I feel it's important to let your actions speak for you.  People
    will remember actions longer than words.
    
    >As far as "cowards get another chance"...no I don't think so, what
    would that do?
    
    May I refer you to Peter.  Jesus knew he would deny him and told him
    that he would.  Peter loved Jesus and wouldn't believe.  Yet, what
    Jesus said was true, and this "coward" denied Jesus three times and
    went on th fulfill his mission.  The interesting thing to me, is that
    Jesus understood and continued to love Peter.  Could Peter have
    accomplished as much by standing beside Jesus and possibly dying? 
    We'll never know.  But he was given a second chance and his second
    chance is well documented.  I agree that it's important to have
    strength and to be positive.  However, another phrase comes to mind
    that I feel fits my belief system a little better.  "the spirit is
    strong but the flesh is weak" and Jesus encourages us to turn our
    burdens over to him.
    
    >Furthermore, I specialize in removing one's "fears"...and I have
    removed the "mote" from my eye and DO see clearly how to remove that of
    my brother's.  And know the anguish I went through in overcoming my
    fears, but I KNOW the JOY that springs forth in the morning, after
    facing my fears and standing firm in the face of adversity.
    
    I envy you, I'm still working on the mote in my eye but I have learned
    that a rose is much more beautiful if it's allowed to open on it's own. 
    Sometime, it's important to let a person deal with his fears and just
    be there for him/her.
    
    >The moral to learn is:
    
    >When that which you thought is meant for your ultimate destruction
    turns out to be for your ultimate good"...
    
    Yes, I agree, there is good in everything and sometimes the best
    lessons are learned when our comfort zone is stretched.  I would like
    to add an additonal comment about the moral to learn is:
    
    Don't be too hard on yourself or others.
    

    Ellen - 
    
    You Religious Scientist, you!  ;-)
    
    It's great to hear the principles expressed so eloquently.
    
    Nanci 

    Nanci
    
    Thank you.
    
    I resemble that remark.
    
    Ellen