Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Dave,

	I am probably the last person you'd want advice from.  I've got
kind of a reputation as an unorthodox Christian, and that's putting it
mildly.

	I think struggling with doubts is sometimes a healthy thing.
Doubts prevent stagnation and indicate that you are really thinking,
instead of simply absorbing.

	I would recommend going to the living God with your doubts
and questions.  I don't know anyone who ever found soul satisfying
answers elsewhere.

Peace,
Richard

    Dave, I think you have a healthy understanding that sometimes the pat
    answers just don't cut it.  I can't offer any answers to your
    questions; I do think that ultimately you have to resolve them in the
    way that best suits you.  Whatever you do, don't stop thinking.  In
    some ways, I think that can be the worst sin of them all.

    -- Mike

    RE: .1 & .2  Richard and Mike,
    
    
                  Thank you for your reply's.  Its been a struggle and I've
    been thru all the "pat" answers.  My faith in God and Jesus is without
    a doubt.  I *KNOW* that I am saved through the blood of Christ.  But
    I've really been convicted lately that I need to stop worshiping the
    Bible or the Church and worship the only living God.  If my God only
    resided in a book or a place, I couldn't place my faith in him as I do.
    I believe thats a very important distinction.
    
    
    Dave

    These are my beliefs.  I can not worship a God who would have babies
    born into sin, ie. that the babies themselves were sinners.  To me this
    would be a rather dispicable God.  Since I believe in God and God's
    goodness, I believe we can all look on the face of a new born child and
    give thanks to God for this little miracle (little in size).
    
    Sex is not sinful to me but is symbolic of the extremely intimate
    relationship we have with God.  Read the "Song of Solomon" for
    inspiration and for the love expressed between God and yourself.
    
    The sin of Adam and Eve to me wasn't the act of sex; it was the turning
    away from God - that is our sin today and I believe we all are
    participants in this world as sinners.  But, the Good News is that
    Jesus the Christ freed us from our sins once and for all and we are
    free to be ourselves.  Love God and love one another - this is our
    offering to the Holy One.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

    
    RE: .0
    
    Gee Dave, maybe more people should think as much as you do! ;^)  I've
    had many of the same questions as you do and have 'voiced' them in
    this conference here and there.
    
    Carole

    
    
    Oh, and in addition to 'thinking', let's make sure we are also
    'feeling' as well!
    
    Carole

re .0

	Dave,

	Many people I talk to have doubts like the ones you have expressed.
	Many people worship the Bible and not the Creator this is wrong, God
	has ensured the survival of the Bible today for it is the main way he 
	has chosen of communicating to all peoples in all the nations. The 
	Bible is now available in most countries in their native language and 
	can help people, with the aid of His spirit, to come to know God and 
	His will and purposes for all mankind and also how they can benefit 
	themselves. To begin with studying the Bible can be difficult on ones 
	own, so help is needed from those who have an understanding of what
	is written in the Bible and who have made application of what they have
	learnt.

	Did God create an imperfect creature? Well, in the Genesis account we
	can see that God created a perfect creature Adam and his complement
	wife Eve. He put a major project ahead of the first couple, Genesis
	1:28 NWT reads "Further, God blessed them and God said to them: "Be
	fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have
	in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the
	heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth."
	Notice He commanded them to "fill the earth and subdue it" this would
	mean producing offspring and extending the boundaries of the garden 
	of Eden until the earth would be a paradise filled with perfect 
	humans living in harmony with one another. However, we know from the
	account in Genesis 3 that Adam rebelled against God and thus cut off 
	the couples source of life (this he was forwarned about if you compare
	Genesis 2:17). The couple were no longer perfect and this imperfection
	would be passed onto their offspring. An example to illustrate this
	could be a bakers baking tray that he uses to bake loaves of bread.
	The baking tray produces perfect loaves of bread each time, however
	if the baking tray becomes dented then all future loaves produced
	in this tray would show signs of this dent. The Greek Scriptures back
	this up, compare Romans 5:12. So because we all stem from Adam and Eve,
	we have all been procreated imperfect. Satan and the original couple
	are the ones to blame and not God.

	How can sex be bad when he created it? Sex in itself is good but only
	in the confines of the marriage arrangement. Confining sex to the
	married couple would be in itself be a protection to the family unit
	as a whole. Sex is only frowned upon in the Bible if it is outside
	the marriage arrangement.  

	Am I a lovable creature in Gods eyes when he cannot "look" upon sin?
	On the basis of acknowledging and putting faith in Jesus' ransom
	sacrifice is needed in part to be reconciled with God, 1 Timothy 2:5,6a NWT reads
	"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man,
	Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all" Just
	as Moses mediated between the Hebrews and God, so to Jesus mediates
	between God and His servants today. Also, they can be looked upon
	as clean in God's eyes by applying faith in Jesus' sacrifice as brought
	out by the symbolic white robes being worn by a great mulititude as
	mentioned in Revelation 7:9,13,14 and are spoken as coming through
	a great tribulation (sometime in the future) because of their putting
	faith in Jesus' sacrifice; the symbolic language discusses washing 
	their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. 

	John 17:3 NWT tells us how mankind can gain everlasting life and thus
	gain what Adam had lost, it reads "This means everlasting life, their
	taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom
	you sent forth, Jesus Christ." 

	whats the point? If we don't try to listen to what God is communicating
	to us through the Bible then we will not benefit from it. As Jehovah
	to told his Israelites in Isaiah 48:17b-19 "I, Jehovah, am your God,
	the One teaching you to benefit [yourself], the One causing you to
	tread in the way you should walk. O only if you would actually pay	
	attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like
	a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the very sea. And
	your offspring would become like the sand, and the descendants from
	your inward parts like the grains of it. One's name would not be cut
	off or be annihilated from before me." He has promised everlasting life
	but not just that but also life in peaceful conditions if one pays 
	attention to what God is saying. However, if one leaves the Bible to
	gather dust on the book case then one would be breaking this line
	of communication.

	Hope this helps

	Phil.

Dave,

Thanks.  I've had my doubts, too.  Still do...  I like the bumper sticker that 
says "Question Authority".  I question the Bible, I challenge God, not to be 
defiant, not to denegrate the Word, but to come to an understanding.  I've 
been angered, frustrated, but untimately never been disappointed.  .-)

Peace,

Jim

p.s.  If you haven't, please go read the sermon that Ron recently entered.  
(Next note over?)  Psalm 103 which he quoted is quite relevant to this.  
"God does not deal with us according to our sins..." 

    Dave, your comment about worshiping the living God rather than the
    Bible or the Church reminds me of an incident that George Fox, the
    founder of Quakerism, described in his journal.  He had entered a
    steeplehouse, where a priest was expounding on a biblical passage and
    proclaiming a doctrine about the Bible that one might today describe as
    bibliolotrous.  Fox wrote,  "Now the Lord's power was so mighty upon
    me, and so strong in me, that I could not hold, but was made to cry out
    and say, 'Oh no, it is not the Scriptures', and was commanded to tell
    them God did not dwell in temples made with hands.  But I told them
    what it was, namely, the Holy Spirit, by which the holy men of God gave
    forth the Scriptures, whereby opinions, religions, and judgments were
    to be tried [or tested]; for it led into all Truth, and so gave the
    knowledge of all Truth."  Fox was eventually hauled off to jail for
    this outburst; he was quite the rabble rouser.  :-)

    Fox started the Quaker movement after undergoing a long spiritual
    crisis.  The resolution came to him when he realized that "there is
    One, even Jesus Christ, who speaks to my condition".  It was the living
    Christ, he believed, that speaks to us today; and nothing, not the not
    a church, not a priest, not even the Bible, should come between us and
    God.  The Bible, he believed, should be interpreted in the same Spirit
    that it was written, a Spirit that dwells within us today. 

    You do have a starting point--the things you know in your heart, the
    things that give your faith substance and meaning.  As for the doubts--
    well, they can be scary when most of us really do want certainty.  I
    think that is why some people turn to their Church or to their
    interpretation of the Bible as the final arbiter on all troubling
    questions.  Maybe out of your doubts new answers will emerge that will
    make sense to you, especially in light of what you do feel certain
    about; and maybe in some cases, you will simply live with the fact that
    you don't or can't know the answers.  Then again, I can't help but
    think that perhaps the quest for those answers can be half the fun. 
    Once you have all the answers, doesn't that kind of stick you in a rut?

    -- Mike

   Thanks Dave,

   Doubt has been a part of my life.  Speculation as well.  I left the
   church (RCC) when I was young as the stuff I was feeling was in conflict
   with what I was being told.  I never left God, I have change the name
   from time to time reflect my spritual development of the time.  I've
   always believed there is a benign higher power that put me her for a
   reason, gave me talents, challenges to sharpen my skills.  Why, I don't
   pretend to know.

   When I hear or read discussions "is sex bad/good" I try to understand
   what the word sex means...  It's a word we use for a lot of things 
   we do and possess within ourselves.  It's a word for something we
   covet, maybe to much.  It certainly is a thing that is intrinsically
   neither good nor bad, but ripe for misuse and misunderstanding.  No
   different than a food or money.  I think our spritual leaders sometimes
   forget the message that chocolate is a wonderful experience if you like
   it, but start eating it all the time and you loose the specialness and
   get fat!  Is chocolate good or bad?  Neither, but it can be abused
   and that is bad.  Religion has institionalized its models of good and
   bad and forgotten the reason for models and maybe why they were good or
   bad.  So now I have to review them and seek my own.

   Allison

Re:  422.0

  >How can sex be bad when he created it?  

It isn't.  The creation story implies that it is not when God
say that creating Eve for Adam was very good.  When it speaks of
the two becoming one, it is including (if not basing) sex in
this concept.  The Bible speaks very highly of marriage and children 
and the marriage bed being kept pure (i.e. engaging in sex within
marriage only with one's spouse).  Sexual acts simply as sexual
acts (without reference to who is doing them) are never condemned
in Scripture.  Only sexual acts outside of a marriage are ever
condemned.  Sexual acts within marriage are not only good, but
they can be considered a requirement (I Cor 7) for a healthy
marriage.

  >He even allowed some of his old testament saints to have concubines.

This indeed is much more troublesome.  However, note that God also
permitted divorce - something which he detests.

Collis

    RE: .11 Collis
    
    Why do you think God would permit something which he detests?
    
    
    Carole

    
    
     
 Re.0 
    
    Dave:
    
 
    Not being a Christian it would be difficult to offer a you
   a Christian perspective on doubt. To be frank, those who do
   do not have occasional doubts scare the bejeebers out me.
    So, let me put on my Zen Buddhist hat....ummm wait a minute
   we don't wear hats, well...when it's cold I have this bright
   red one, oh never mind, these are my thoughts on what you
   have written.
    As you may or may not know we practice zazen. Some people
   call it meditation. We usually refer to it as just plain
   old sitting. We sit and try and be present in the universe
   during that moment we are sitting. It sounds simple, but it
   turns out to be no easy task.
    We humans always seem to have something on our minds. We worry
   about things that will probably never happen. We plan make plans,
   we run though things over and over again in our minds. Sometimes
   this is a good thing and sometimes it is not.
    Often we have doubts about things. I once read about these doubts of
   ours being compared to weeds in a garden. Not much can be done about
   them. You can pull them up, but you'll never get them all and
   new ones will soon sprout up soon in place of the old ones. 
   The weeds that have been pulled up can be thrown in the compost
   heap to rot down and eventually they'll do some good.  Of course
   in the mean time new ones will grow. With patience and steady 
   effort we can keep the weeds under control and even put them 
   to good use, but we will never be rid of them entirely.
    It does not sound like you doubt the essential message of your
   faith, but rather some details of theology. There is a story
   about a Buddhist monk who spent years studying the Sutras trying
   to find the key to enlightenment. Then one day while chopping wood
   he experienced enlightenment. He ran back to his room, grabbed all
   his scrolls containing the Sutras, put them in a big pile and 
   burned them.
     Now, I am not suggesting that you go burn your Bible and your
   books about Christianity, but just as Buddhism is not found in
   the Sutras I suspect that Christianity does not reside on the
   pages of the Bible. ( Why do I feel that I will regret writing
   that ?) Rather it is the life of a Christian much the same as
   Buddhism is life of a Buddhist. 
     Buddhists often say that what matters is that you make the best
   effort in each moment. If you make the best effort to put your faith
   into practice as you live each moment I do not think the abstractions
   of theology or whatever doubts you have from time to time will seem
   that important.
      There will be some weeds in your garden, but this should not prevent
    you from having a good harvest. I recall there is quotation in 
    Scripture about Christians being known by the fruits they shall     
    bear, somewhere in Matthew isn't it ? 

                                                               Mike
   
     

Re:         <<< Note 422.12 by RUBY::PAY$FRETTS "a visionary activist" >>>

>    
>    Why do you think God would permit something which he detests?
>    

I feel that God created mankind with the ability to choose between good
and evil. Sin was concieved due upon mankind's disobediance to God in the
garden. God dislikes sin but desired/desires  to have the nature of His
creation unchanged- that is, the availability to us of free choice.

For God to simply force everyone to do His will would be against His
devine nature. In the O.T. He brought about laws that would reveal sin
and make it known to man... still, many resisted His call of Loving
obedience to him. 

Thankfully, God revealed His perfect nature in the person of Jesus
Christ. All of the fullness of God dwells bodily within Him. [scripture
quote, location escapes me at the moment]. God made a way for sinners to
be made whole, in Gods' sight without spot or blemish... through our
acceptance of death and resurection of Jesus (by asking Him into our
lives).

Note that God does not force His way upon any... despite the appearances
of some religious zealots. In our acceptance of Jesus as saviour and Lord
we smash the barrier of sin that keeps us apart from God... we can bury
that sin which is grevious to God and be clothed in righteousness.

And, back to the original query... 

Sin remains today in us all due to Adam's original choice of
disobedience. God has not short-circuited His creation plan of our having
the ability to choose... in essence, for God to put an end to sin before
the proper time he would be reniging on His original plan for man- to
have a free choice.

God's Love for mankind will be fully revealed upon Jesus' triumphant
return. He will FULLFILL His desires for mankind by once again allowing
us full, direct access to His presence- no longer will their be a need
for the Holy Spirit.

It is up to every person to choose... God has in no way nullifed that
original state in which man was created. But, just as with Adam... there
is still a penalty for sin...

I'm afraid I would fail miserably with any kind of intelectual discourse
on this topic... my heart seems to be able to expound on this topic but
my mind does not.

All I know is that when my life was a shambles I asked Jesus to be my
Lord and He entered in to my heart, never to leave me or forsake me. I
urge all to examine the scriptures carefully and use them as a light to
evaluate you present standing. Just as God does, I would like to suggest
that free choice is all yours. God bullies noone into truly accepting
Him.

I appologize for any offense that I may cause due to the posting of my
views but I stand by them 100%.

Lee Roth

    re: .-1
    
    Please explain what you mean by your comments:
    
    Sin remains today in us all due to Adam's original choice &
    God has given us the freedom to choose.
    
    Please name any example of the sin of the new born baby.
    
    	Regards,
    
    	Ron
    

The following is being posted on behalf of a C-P member who prefers to
remain anonymous.
============================================================================
Sex is not a sin.  How sex is used could be a sin.  If sex was not meant to  
be pleasurable, then why did he give it to us?  I believe that sex outside 
of a committed relationship is abusing God's gift to us.  It destroys 
the ultimate beauty that sex can be between two people who are truly 
committed to one another.  Using sex for personal gain is a sin.  Sex 
outside of a committed relationship also deeply hurts the souls of the 
people involved.  

Sex is one of the most wonderful things God had given to us.  However, 
as with all of God's other gifts, it must be used wisely.  It must not 
be abused.  It must not be used as a substitute for God's guidance and 
love.  Sadly, it is used all too often as a substitute.  Sex is used to 
obtain the love we are seeking in our lives, sex is used to take away 
emotional pain, loneliness, emptiness.  It is used to make life seem a 
little bit less empty.  The only thing that can make life a little less 
empty and lonely is prayer and trust and faith in God.  

As for the Bible, I sometimes feel it's a little too harsh where sex is 
concerned.  Even Paul in his writings was against marriage.  There are 
passages in the Bible, when kept in context, (and which I can't quote) 
that give us good guidelines about sex.  

    re: .14

>    Sin remains today in us all due to Adam's original choice &
>    God has given us the freedom to choose.

Indeed!?  You are aware that Ezekiel would take issue with this, aren't you?

Richard    

Re:    <<< Note 422.15 by OLDTMR::FRANCEY "USS SECG dtn 223-5427 pko3-1/d18" >>>
>
>                         -< asking for clarification >-
>
>    re: .-1
>    
>    Please explain what you mean by your comments:
>    
>    Sin remains today in us all due to Adam's original choice &
>    God has given us the freedom to choose.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man [Adam], and
death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all
sinned" Romans 5:21

>    Please name any example of the sin of the new born baby.
    
I know of none. But the seed is there...

The inclination to sin is a part of every persons nature�. The Bible is
filled with God's word to man to turn from sin through Jesus.

Lee

�The concept of man having a sinful nature is clearly spelled out in the
Bible. This concept is rejected by many but is a fundamental truth of the
Christian faith.

    Dave .0,
    
    Knowing you, I would trust personal revelation in this matter. :-)
    
    Karen

    Re:  .17
    
    Which Ezekiel is that?  If you would refer to or quote or paraphrase
    the passage that you mean, we could discuss it.  I'd have a hard time
    thinking that the Bible would contradict itself on such a basic thing
    as original sin.   As other notes have said, there are plenty of
    examples of Biblical teaching on original sin.
    
    Generally, we don't want to accept our sin.  What helped me understand
    it is to focus on the standard being used.  By my standards, I'm a
    pretty good guy - I work hard, don't steal, never been in jail, don't
    cheat on my wife.  But that's not the standard we are talking about. 
    God's standard comes from His nature.  He is sinless and perfect, so
    His standard is perfect.  A choice to rebel against God once
    violates this standard, and is sin.  Adam did it, we all do it.  If
    you've ever had a newborn baby (I have 3), they do it.
    
    It wounds our ego to think so, but each of us carries the disease, sin. 
    The way to get rid of it is clear - through Jesus. See Romans 3:23,
    5:8.
    
    
    Tell me what you all think...
    
    Don Randall
    
    

Re: .20

Hi Don,

Natually, when I most want to find a specific passage, that's the time
I'm least likely to find it.  However, for starters, let me provide you
with these:

	Ezekiel 18.1-32

	Ezekiel 33.10-20

Though not the passage I was specifically looking, both of these portions
emphasize individual responsibility - rather than inherited or "original
sin."

Peace,
Richard

Note 422.22

>    What do I know? .-1 quotes passages that make me wonder why the sin of
>    Adam was ever passed on to his children. Why did we require a savior?

Good question.  As I have stated elsewhere, however, I'd be a Christian
even if salvation was not part of the package.

Richard

    Dave .0,
    
    	How are you doing with the doubts you spoke about these days??
    
    Richard

    RE: .24  Richard,
    
                       Much better....tho sometimes they resurge....like
    a tidal wave.  
    
    
    Thank fer askin,
    Dave