Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Actually, I think our society demonstrates exceptionally little concern
    for *children* -- not only in funding programs for poor children
    (nutrition, Head Start, etc.) -- but also in making accommodations for
    children of *all* families.  
    
    There are few (I would say "none" but I can't be sure) places where
    parents and older children can leave the younger ones while they enjoy
    services the youngsters are not ready for.  For example, I get tired of
    trying to weave around parents with strollers in the malls (espcially
    during Christmas rush!), but I also remember what it was like and
    sympathize with their lack of options.  
    
    I was thinking recently how great it would be if every large mall had a
    professionally staffed child-care center for the benefit of its
    shoppers.  (Parents could pay or get the care free with a proof-of-
    purchase from a mall store, the way a lot of parking is done.)
    
    Well, it's ok to dream, isn't it? 
    
    

    re  .30
    
    Yes, I agree with you.  Children are neglected/abused/forgotten
    about/malnourished in our society to an alarming extent.  We lag behind 
    other nations in terms of providing quality day care for children as 
    well.  However, the point I was trying to make was simply this:  I
    think it is normally acceptable in our culture for parents to include their 
    children -- I'm talking about very small children and babies especially --
    in nearly all their dealings with other adults, whatever kind of setting, 
    public or private, business or personal.   And these other adults 
    on the whole are expected to put up with any disruptions that these
    children may cause.  More examples?   Too often I've seen babies get
    changed on my (or a guest's) dining room table (often just before or
    just after dinner) to my dismay or the dismay of the person whose
    dining room table is being used to handle human feces.  (Parents never
    ask you where it would be most appropriate to change their babies when
    they are in your home.... they just do it.)  I've been to office 
    Christmas parties in restaurants (you know, dinner with your fellow 
    employees) where some employees not only bring their spouses, but 
    also their infants or very small children.  Almost always they 
    scream/cry, and interfere with attempts at holiday discussion/socializing 
    with fellow workers.  At one office Christmas party, the wife of one of
    our fellow employees started breast feeding her baby while the
    rest of us ate dinner (and watched).  I know a lot of women will chastise 
    me for saying this (because it's reportedly difficult to find the place/time
    to feed their babies), but I think we all should have an inalienable
    right to attend an office party without witnessing breastfeeding
    (involving a mother and baby we don't even know, no less).
    
    The bottom line is simple:  I hope, if/when I have children, or 
    if/when I am tending to other people's children -- and I do like
    children -- I am not as blatantly insensitive to others as SO 
    many parents seem to be.
    
    Paul
    
    P.S.  Much of the neglect from children does indeed come from their
    parents, many of whom are ill-equipped to bring life into the world
    and raise children to begin with, in addition to societal neglect.
    Also, better treatment of children (by society or their parents)
    need not mean continued acceptance of all the disruptions in the
    lives of adults.   Now that you think I'm the type of guy who
    steals candy from kids .... ;) ;)
     

I would LOVE to have dinner at a restaurant without being assaulted by kids
whining or throwing fits.  Can you tell I'm a non-parent?  ;-}  I've even had
friends that have kids say they'd wish other people would learn to discipline
their own kids so when they (our friends) finally got an evening away from the
kids they could enjoy their dinner in peace and quiet.  Only high-priced places
seem to offer the solitude and how many people can afford to eat there?  Maybe
the solution is separate sections....

Judy

Ah, it's the old children should be seen not hurt stuff. That's why we have 
so much codependency and other problems now.

Sam

    
    I wouldn't want my comments in .0 to suggest that I think children
    should be kept out of sight and out of family (or extended-family)
    events.  
    
    I *do* find stollers a significant nuisance in stores but I don't mind
    kids seated safely in shopping carts.  And perhaps a kid/no-kid
    section in restaurants is not a bad idea!  Children need to learn to
    behave in restaurants, and they won't learn it if they're never taken
    there.  Also, with TV so prevalent at home, we used to have our best
    family discussions when we all went out to eat (especially Sat.
    breakfast)!
    
    I wouldn't want kids banned from restaurants, but now that our
    own children are out of the nest, I find loud children very distracting
    when my husband and I are trying to "reestablish our coupleness" with a
    romantic dinner out...  
    
    Once at Wendy's I noticed a woman there with three young children.  She
    was treating them so politely and talking to them like they were "real
    people" that I was greatly impressed and complimented her on my way
    out.  
    

    RE: .1 I have been in a number of malls that do offer babysitting
    services. It seems like a great idea and I don't know why more
    malls do not do it. Especially those that have empty stores.

    RE: .2 Breast feeding always seemed to me to be one of the more natural
    things in the world. I don't understand objections to it being done
    in public. In fact if it were done in public more often perhaps we'd
    see less of the unhealthy preoccupation with breasts as sex objects
    that we do now.

    RE: .2 & .3 And babies in restaurants. My wife and I often took our
    son (now 13) with us when he was a baby. We did not however allow
    him to be disruptive. At the first sign of disruption he was taken
    away and calmed down (fed, changed, what ever). We had a lot of people
    tell us how quiet he was or express surprise at the end of a meal as
    they hadn't realized he was there. I do not thing the problem is the
    child so much as the parents. I also believe that a large part of the
    problem of older (3 and up) children not behaving well in public is
    that they are not exposed to and trained in proper behavior at an
    earlier age. People who take the time and effort to properly train
    their children early are, in my opinion, lazy and will pay for it in
    the long run.

    RE: .4 Of course children should be allowed to express themselves but
    that does not mean they should be allowed to be disruptive. Children
    have rights to be heard but only in relationship to their contribution
    outweighing their disruption to others. It's never too early to teach
    people that the world does not revolve around them.

    			Alfred

    re: .6
    
    I agree with all you wrote!
    
    When we had children, I felt that we were "inviting them to share our
    lives."  This did not mean that we didn't make the necessary
    modifications to accommodate their special needs or that we did not
    leave them out of situations where they would be bored or incapable of
    appropriate behavior.  It *did* mean that (1) we did not make the
    children the "center" of our lives and give up all our activities to
    cater to their wishes and (2) we expected them to behave appropriately
    and "fit in" -- in other words, "become socialized." 
    

    Jesus said "Let the little children come unto me and don't prevent
    them". Why should I be any less kind? Mine are teenagers now but I
    remember what it was like to try to get any thing done when they were
    little. When little ones are restless or irritable my heart goes out to
    them even if my meal or shopping is disturbed. A very large percentage
    of small children are growing up in poverty with a parent who is
    bearing the burden alone, so banish any personal resentment and summon
    all the patience you can. In the light of eternity you are(should be)
    just as much a child as they.
    
    johN

Thanks John. Finally a sensible reply. This string has infuriated me and 
others (who I have spoken with). To the child's eye, they are the center of 
the universe and that is neccessary for the child's healthy growth. Look at 
the work of John Bradshaw and especially the book Homecoming.
	Today, children are a nussince (sp?) to most. They should be seen and 
not heard. Thay re being neglected. When they express emotion, they are not 
stopped. When they cry, they are told "Stop or I'll give you something to cry 
about!" CHILDREN ARE NEEDY BY NATURE NOT BY CHOICE!! The result of all this 
neglect? The huge codependency problem with divorces, addictions ,etc.
	just my opinions...

Sam

RE: .8              -< Look at little ones with Jesus' Eyes >-

>>						A very large percentage
>>    of small children are growing up in poverty with a parent who is
>>    bearing the burden alone, so banish any personal resentment and summon
>>    all the patience you can. In the light of eternity you are(should be)
>>    just as much a child as they.
    
The better behaved kids I've seen are with single parents....Nancy and Emily
come to mind.  Ones I have in mind have two parents and the parents haven't
disciplined their children from the beginning.  To allow a child to run with
abandon is abuse in itself.  How many children have turned to the wrong side
of the law due to the lack of discipline in the home?  And how many have 
turned to the wrong side of the law due to abuse?  I imagine the numbers are
real close.  I also see `law-breakers' using their earlier life as an excuse
to live the life they do.  I see this as a crock!  How many dysfuntional
children remained straight?  I for one, after being sexually abused by my
father for over 11 years!  

There is a fine line as to what is `correct' discipline.  Too much is some
form of abuse and not enough doesn't give the child proper guidance to be
well behaved in public or in private.  

BTW, lots of people consider me very patient but I lose it when people allow
their kids to disturb the surroundings for others.  This probably stems from
me not being allowed to be a child when I was a kid.  Sounds like a crock,
doesn't it?  :-)

Judy

    Hmmm, this is tough.  I seem to be on both sides of the fence here. 
    I've always taken my children to restaurants with me because I also
    felt that they can't learn how to behave properly if they are never
    exposed to the experience.  They are both teenagers now and I still enjoy
    dining out with them.  However, both Kendra (13) and I will cringe when
    we're seated next to very young children in a restaurant because often
    times they will stand on their chairs or get up and run around or
    otherwise create a disturbance.  Kendra will say, "I never did that,
    did I!?!?!"  And I will honestly say I don't believe she ever did!
    I think it is because I took a lot of time to explain and demonstrate
    how to respect other people's right to enjoy their dinner without being
    disturbed by unruly behavior.  Basically, I think if you treat your
    children with love and respect, they will show love and respect for
    others.
    
    Ro
    
    

    Sam,
    
>>       <<< Note 380.9 by BCSE::SUEIZZ::GENTILE "Kama, the Urban Shaman" >>>
>>
>> Thanks John. Finally a sensible reply. This string has infuriated me and 
>> others (who I have spoken with). 
    
    Your anger concerns me.  I went back and looked at the notes in this
    string and found -- IMO -- only *one* note that *might* be interpreted
    (again, IMO) as being negative toward children and deserving of the
    strength of your anger!  Apparently my own attempts to advocate *for*
    children have not been perceived as such by you.  This truly puzzles
    me!
    
    Most -- if not all -- of the problems that children seem to cause adults
    are problems that are within the power of the parents to prevent or
    cure -- or are due to parents being overwhelmed without needed support 
    systems to help the.!
    
    Somehow you feel that the noters in this string do not like children.
    I feel you are over-reacting -- and I can't even figure out what you
    are responding TO!!
    
    BTW, I have no quarrel with what you are saying about children's needs.
    I believe we would be in agreement on most things.  So what gives here?
    
    Nancy

Nancy,

It's not your notes that anger me. Yours are not a problem. It's certain 
others that do.
	Maybe I should just leave this alone. They are only my opinions. I 
have been a victim of this kind of mentality and all by alledgedly Christian 
parents. I'll just drop it.

Sam

I have so much to say now, I don't know where to begin! 

Why would this topic make anyone furious?  I do not believe anyone who
has noted here dislikes children or neglects children or believes "children
should be seen and not heard," or indulges in any of the anti-child attitudes
that have been implied here.  

Including children in the adult world and talking to them like real
people is something I've always strongly believed in.  I believe in giving
children the same respect as would be given adults;  I've seen the Bradshaw
telecasts about children and dysfunctional families, and I agree with him. 
If you tream 'em like sub-humans, they'll act like sub-humans.  Responsible 
behavior in children is usually breeded correctly when they are given serious
responsibilities, when they feel THEY are responsible and THEIR behavior
affects THEM.

However -- this is a big however -- I get a little bewildered listening to
parents complain about adults who do not wish to be disrupted in 
restaurants or theatres or other public places (like Disneyworld exhibits) by 
small children/babies who scream and cry and raise hell, who are too young 
to benefit from (or even be physically comfortable in) these situations, as 
well as their parents who drag them to these places and incite the 
disruptions via non-discipline.  

In many cases, the parents are doing more of a disservice to their
kids than the adults who object to the disruptions that are caused by said kids.
In SO many cases, I've seen parents make their infants and small two- and
three-year-olds very uncomfortable and stressed-out, in the parental effort to 
"include" them in day-long excursions and trips to busy, noisy public places,
that I feel SORRY for these kids.  Under these circumstrances, they scream 
because they are tired, uncomfortable, irritable, and stressed-out.  

Then  there are kids who raise hell and scream in public places, when they
should be old enough to know better -- and the parents don't lift a finger to
discipline them.  This is ANOTHER form of disservice to their children.  

Example:  Recently, I had lunch with a former co-worker at a local 
sandwich shop.  He and I were trying to catch up on months worth of 
happenings.  However, two girls, aged around 5/6, raised so much hell --
ran around the place, jumping on chairs, screaming at the top of their
lungs (and at one point climing under OUR seats -- that we couldn't carry
on a normal conversation.  We couldn't hear each other.  What were their
mothers doing?  Carrying on THEIR conversation, as if their kids did not
even exist.  Not ONCE did they tell their kids to be quiet.  We merely
watched the spectacle with disbelief.  THIS is what I mean when I say
a lot of adults have not only gotten used to this form of chaos in their
lives, they expect the rest of the world to accept it in THEIR lives as well.
This type of behavior is NOT self-expression.  You wouldn't put up with any
adult "expressing" himself/herself this way, would you?  Then why children,
who are also real people?   As a college-age student in a boisterous group, 
I once got THROWN OUT of a restaurant once for "expressing" myself
this way.

I am a bit confused about this self expression thing anyway.  What exactly
are you saying?  That is OK for children to scream and cause disruptions
in public places like restaurants and theatres?   Again, setting up
adults who complain about such disruptions as "bad guys" completely
misses the mark.  It seems to me that the real "bad guys" in these
cases are the parents who drag their babies around all day to hectic 
places they are too young to benefit from, and who allow their children
to raise hell in public, without proper disciplin.

I love children, and I do not understand implications that I am some
sort of scrooge, whenever I say I do not believe public disruptions, caused
by children, should be tolerated.  I know many parents who do not EVER
allow their children to act wildly and scream in public places.  In fact, I 
am willing to bet that those children who I do see causing disruptions are 
more likely to come from dysfunctional families (and perhaps even abusive 
families) than those children I see who exhibit better manners.   It's not 
too difficult to determine which parents have their act together and which 
ones don't.

Regards,
Paul
                                         

    re  .13  Sam,
    
    Am I one of those "others" whose notes are a problem?  If so, what did
    I say?  I hadn't intended my words to offend.
    
    Paul
    

        Re the above discussion, especially the noise of children in
        otherwise quiet public places:

        Please also keep in mind that, as difficult as this may seem
        to believe, parents are human too and make mistakes from time
        to time.  Occasionally I've taken my children to a place or
        occasion to which I shouldn't have taken them, sometimes
        because I've incorrectly estimated my child's temperament,
        sometimes because I have incorrectly estimated the tone of
        the time or place, and sometimes because I didn't see any
        alternative way to do something I had to do.

        Bob

I've learned that for our race of humans to remain on Mother Earth we must be 
prolific and create miniatures of ourselves.  I have no problem with these 
small people running around, as long as they are disciplined.  There are 
places to run and be free spirited....such as playgrounds and playrooms and
their own backyards (or front yards for that matter).  But please (!) don't
expect me to tolerate them in restaurants, theaters, etc.  

My parents took the time to discipline us in a quiet manner, no beatings,
we did get spankings tho (fine line as to the difference).  We were rarely
yelled at.  You knew you were really in trouble if someone called you by your 
full name and included your middle name.  :-)  We were removed from a 
situation if we became rowdy and disturbed someone.  All it took we for a 
stranger to glimpse our way and whoosh, we were whisked away.  Children
need to be taught to respect others.  Others is open to interpretation.
Other's property, other's peace and quiet, other's lives, etc.  Maybe what
we have been seeing in the restaurants and out shopping (these loud and
rowdy kids) are the exceptions and not the rule.

I applaude those parents that have taken the time to properly discipline their
children.  I thank you, thank you, thank you!  

Judy

    Judy - 
    
    Thank you!  :-)  One of the things I've worked hard on with Emily is
    teaching her what is and is not acceptable behavior and how that
    changes depending on the place and the circumstances.  Since she was a
    baby I've been taking her to movies, plays, concerts, and restaurants. 
    While there were a few times when we had to leave someplace when she
    was 2 or 3, she learned.  Now I rarely have to discipline her at all in
    public situations and even then, a quiet word will usually make enough
    of an impression that the behavior stops.
    
    Paul - I think you have a point although my first response was
    defensiveness.  I think if I hadn't known you so well through notes,
    etc., I probably would have taken offense.  You seemed to come on
    uncharacteristically ba;listically!  :-)  I am sort of aligned with Ro 
    on this.  Having been a single parent since Emily was 10 months old I 
    know how hard it is to have any kind of social life without including your
    children.  On the other hand there are times when I am very
    uncomfortable by other people's children's behavior in public places. 
    When this has happened with Emily I have removed her from the
    situation.  I have a hard time with parents who ignore their children's
    bad behavior.
    
     
    Nanci

    re  .18
    
    Nanci, sorry I sometimes come off balistically to those who don't really 
    know me.  I do have a tendency to get rather passionate when I try to
    make a point regarding something I strongly believe in.  Actually, when
    it comes to children, I am a real marshmallow/pushover.  I spend a lot
    of time with children of friends/family, single-parent kids,
    espeicially.   Though they almost always listen to me and behave in my
    presence (cause I respect them as real people and they respect me and 
    know I mean business) they also know they can play on my sentimental 
    nerves by acting sweet and cute.... you know, saying "Oh Pleeeeeeease 
    will you play with me?" in the cutest way they can conjure up.  Usually, 
    I melt down like a nuclear reactor!   Kids are smart in that way.  They 
    know your weaknesses, strengths, whether or not you are serious, honest, 
    play games, or whatever.
    
    Judy, you're right.  Thank you thank you thank you to so many parents
    out there who do take the time to discipline their kids properly and
    raise them to respect the space of others.
    
    Paul                    

Yesterday was my son's 12th birthday.

To celebrate we went to a nearby rollerskating rink where he had prearranged
to meet a few friends, including Nicole, his current interest.  Ricky's mother
and I were both surprised to discover that Nicole is a least a head taller
than Ricky, that she's much more mature looking than Ricky, and that she's
black.  He'd talked about Nicole, but always did so without mentioning any
of this.  It was a pleasant contrast to feel that perhaps we'd had a positive
influence on his life.

Richard

       "Before I got married I had six theories 
	about bringing up children; now I have
	six children and no theories."
						-- Lord Rochester