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Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Title:Discussions from a Christian Perspective
Notice:Prostitutes and tax collectors welcome!
Moderator:CSC32::J_CHRISTIE
Created:Mon Sep 17 1990
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1362
Total number of notes:61362

365.0. "Scope of Peter's vision" by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE (On a peaceable crusade) Tue Dec 17 1991 21:30

Does Peter's vision, which appears in Acts 10:9-16, apply only to laws
pertaining to Jewish dietary customs or does it have greater significance?

For those who aren't familiar with this portion of the New Testament, Peter
is sitting on a roof about noon, praying and feeling hungry.  In a vision
he sees something like a sheet lowered by its four corners from heaven
containing all kinds of animals, reptiles and wild birds.  A voice tells Peter
to "kill and eat."  But Peter refuses saying that he's never eaten anything
ritually unclean or defiled.  The voice answers by saying, "Do not consider
anything unclean that God has declared clean."  This occurs three times (It's
seems like Peter always had to experience things in sets of three! ;-}) and
then what he saw was lifted back up into heaven.

Peace,
Richard
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365.1CVG::THOMPSONRadical CentralistTue Dec 17 1991 22:1310
>Does Peter's vision, which appears in Acts 10:9-16, apply only to laws
>pertaining to Jewish dietary customs or does it have greater significance?
    
    Is this a trick question? Peter himself said it had much greater 
    significance. It's part and parcel of his explaination in Acts
    chapter 11 of why he took Jesus to the gentiles. It forms the
    basis of the Apastolic missions to people other than Jews. I thought
    everyone knew this? Not so?
    
    			Alfred
365.2CSC32::J_CHRISTIEOn a peaceable crusadeTue Dec 17 1991 22:4014
Note 365.1

>    Is this a trick question? Peter himself said it had much greater 
>    significance. It's part and parcel of his explaination in Acts
>    chapter 11 of why he took Jesus to the gentiles. It forms the
>    basis of the Apastolic missions to people other than Jews. I thought
>    everyone knew this? Not so?

Alfred (and others),

Are there even broader implications than this?  What are the parameters
of this vision, if any exist?

Richard
365.3Don't get too broad here... CSC32::LECOMPTEI am a new critter!Fri Dec 20 1991 20:538
	The vision absolutely does have broader application then
just jewish dietary laws.  But I think any broader application then
what is presented in the Bible (ie. the gospel was for ALL men not just
the jews) would be stretching it.  I don't believe you can use it
as a platform for justifying what the Bible clearly states is sin
but it is definately an example of Gods acceptance of anyone who REPENTS.

	_ed-
365.4Oh? How come?CSC32::J_CHRISTIEPeace: the Final FrontierFri Dec 20 1991 22:0937
Note 365.3

-ed_,

Thank you for your remarks.  As is often the case, however, they do provoke
even more questions.

>	The vision absolutely does have broader application then
>just jewish dietary laws.  But I think any broader application then
>what is presented in the Bible (ie. the gospel was for ALL men not just
>the jews) would be stretching it.

For what reason(s) do you take this position?

>  	I don't believe you can use it
>as a platform for justifying what the Bible clearly states is sin
>but it is definately an example of Gods acceptance of anyone who REPENTS.

Would it be more credible to use Peter's vision as a platform for justifying
a life lived in accordance with the Spirit and teachings of Christ Jesus, but
which is out of synchronization with much of the Law as prescribed in the
Old Testament?

"Do not consider anything unclean that God has declared clean."  This to me
is a very interesting statement.  How do we know all that God has declared to
be clean?  How do we know what God declared clean had been fully revealed before
the canon was closed?  In other words, how do we know that canonization wasn't
premature?

I noticed your emphasis on the word REPENTS.  Do you mean God accepts
anyone who "has a change of heart?" a "re-thinking?" a "turning to God?"
a "metanoia"?  Or could you possibly mean God accepts anyone who "changes
or swears off their sinful ways?"  If the latter, would you share with us
how you arrived at your understanding of what it means to repent?

Peace,
Richard
365.5repentanceJUPITR::NELSONMon Dec 30 1991 18:5318
    I've always been taught that to Repent, one needs to not only feel
    sorrow or contrition for a current 'way of life', but also be determined
    to make a change so that one does not continue the offense. Therefore,
    Repentance contains both an admittance that what was done (or not done)
    was a sin in God's sight, and also a firm resolve to sin no more. 
    
    Admitting to the sin and even feeling sorry for it yet not deciding to
    made an effort to turn from future temptations is not an act of
    repentance. 
    
    Often as Christians we struggle with our sins - committing them, 
    truely repenting of them, and then falling into them again. What is
    important is to persevere in repenting and to call Christ into the
    battle so that Satan will flee and tempt us no more!
    
    Peace,
    Mary
     
365.6pointerCSC32::J_CHRISTIEPeace: the Final FrontierMon Dec 30 1991 20:383
    On Repentance, also see Note 306 and its replies.
    
    Richard Jones-Christie
365.7ramblingTFH::KIRKa simple songThu Jun 04 1992 10:0170
Hi, Richard, thanks for the tickle in 91.*.

After re-reading this note and the replies, I'm strongly reminded of a line 
from a book, _The Once and Future King_ by E. H. White (I think) that goes 
something like this:

		"Everything not prohibited is mandatory.
		 Everything not mandatory is prohibited."

As I recall from old, vague memories, the young Arthur (as in Camelot and all 
that) has been turned into an ant by his magician/teacher Merlin (no 
rat-holes, please .-) in order to learn lessons about Life.  The above two
rules dictate how ants are to live their lives.  "Don't think, just do what
you're told, and don't do what you're not told..." 

In a similar vein, I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who was vehemently 
opposed to the creation of the Bill of Rights.  His reasoning was that if one
was too specific in spelling out what rights a person has, then there was a
good chance that people would work to limit a person's right to what was
specifically spelled out and no more.  Instead of being liberated, people
would be enslaved by the letter of the law. 

Legal documents and such are usually though of as being very clear and 
precise, but for them to be of any use over time, there are many fuzzy areas 
subject to interpretation.  

For example, treason has been explicitly spelled out as to what constitutes
it and what the penalties are, yet what is meant by "cruel and unusual
punishment"?  That was purposely left vague, so that it might be interpreted
by a changing society. 

I suppose there are circumstances where strict obedience to the letter of the 
law is necessary.  The military, for example.  While I have certain 
reservations about it, I can see the necessity for having strict rules about 
what is permissible and what isn't, and that what is is mandatory and what 
isn't is forbidden.

However, as regards Christianity, Christ Jesus came to free us of the Law in a 
profound and transcending way.

The Fall in the Garden of Eden gave us the knowledge of Good and Evil.  I have 
occasionally heard that fall described as a fall *up*.  We are more in the 
image of God because of that, yet we ignore or abuse that knowledge.

In God's evolving covenant with us we were given the Law.  "Do this, don't do 
that."  It is very easy to become responsible soley to the Law.  Who has not 
heard of someone who followed procedure to the letter, while having no regard 
for the people they were dealing with?  Legally they might have been clean as
a whistle, but did they do the right thing? 

Jesus freed us from the bondage of the Law, yet gave no license for anarchy.
The Law is written in our hearts.  We have the knowledge of Good and Evil, 
even if it was stolen from the Garden.  That theft might be some way redeemed 
by our remembering in Whose image we are created and living our lives 
accordingly.  "Love others as I have loved you." 

It's much more difficult than living by the written Law.  Mistakes will be 
made, you will find yourself in new and uncharted territories that the written 
Law might not even cover.�  Jesus gave us new freedom, and the responsibility 
that goes with it.  He also gave us the support we need whenever we are 
willing to accept it.

Peace,

Jim

�  I'm reminded of the controversy that arose in certain areas when space 
   flight was new.  There was quite a debate in some Jewish circles concerning
   the definition of sundown when one was orbiting the Earth and the problem 
   of exactly when one was to pray.
365.8CARTUN::BERGGRENheart full of songThu Jun 04 1992 12:455
    Thank you Jim, I'm going to be thinking on that for awhile.
    So much of what you wrote rings true.
    
    Peace,
    Karen