Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

There may be some items of interest in topic 238 started by Playtoe concerning 
Christianity and UFOs....

Peace,

Jim

    re: .1
    
    Yes, Jim I looked through topic 238.  It seems to concentrate mainly on
    certain metaphors in the Bible that could be construed as UFO's.  I am
    thinking mainly about how theological, religious or philosophical ideas
    would be affected if we were to come in contact with another
    intelligent life form.  I imagine Christianity and other religions
    would be profoundly affected.

>  I imagine Christianity and other religions
>    would be profoundly affected.

	I don't think so. If there is other life than there are two options.

	They are without sin - in which case they'll have a great relationship
		with God and will support Christianity

	They have sinned - in which case there are two options

		Christ went to them as He came to us  or
		Christ came here for them as well as us.

	No profound affects eiter way.

			Alfred

    I think there will be extremely profound effects upon Christianity.
    
    There were when certain scientifically inclined individuals offered
    evidence that the Sun, instead of the Earth, was the center of the 
    universe.  Many of these people were branded as heretics.  In extreme 
    cases when they did not retract their 'findings' they were executed.  
    If I remember correctly, one of these people was Giordano Bruno who 
    was burnt at the stake for his Sun-centered heresy.
    
    Also the Bible presents the viewpoint that Man is given dominion over 
    Woman, Child, and Animal, in that order, (a view I don't support, btw).  
    :-)  Where would extraterrestials "fit" into this hierachy?  And supposing 
    they have, shall we say, a "differing" viewpoint?  
    
    Also, if it was ferverently debated in the early centuries following 
    Jesus Christ's life whether or not women had souls, and was debated 
    as recently as 200 years ago whether blacks or south american Indians 
    had souls, (because if they didn't it was OKAY to kill and/or enslave 
    them);  I can only imagine the "fun" the Christian community would have 
    with other, obviously intelligent yet other-worldly, life forms...   
    
    Oh yes, I see problems.  Very *big* problems.
    
    Karen

   Karen,

   Good point.  It's interesting to see mans centrism over the span
   of recorded history.  As travel and science broke down the barriers
   of time and space on the planet and its surrounding space man has
   still clung fervently to the idea that god only created one planet
   and one race of people.  What if god didn't?  Would the idea of a 
   surpreme being be any less important or the basic intent of religious
   writings encouraging the goodness of mankind be diminished, not in my
   eyes.  It's a big load of space out there and in the apparent disorder
   there is complex order we have yet to understand.  Big bang or not
   it didn't appear by itself.  So by my belief yes extraterestrials
   are out there and they also believe in a surpreme being.

   It isn't fancy scripture stuff just what I believe.

   Allison

    Karen,

    You have written about people I have heard of but do not know who
    have a religion I do not recognize as Christian. Have you spoken of
    your own beliefs? I think not. And if not, with all do respect, you
    know not of what you speak. Do you see problems in *your* religion
    if people from an other planet show up? If so what, if not, why not?

    A debate over blacks have souls is clearly NOT Christian. After all
    why would Philip have baptized the Ethiopian (Acts 8:38) if he had
    no soul?

    Perhaps some religions would have trouble with people from an other
    planet and perhaps some Christians would as well. But Christianity
    would have no trouble at all.

    			Alfred

re Note 331.4 by CARTUN::BERGGREN:

>     Also the Bible presents the viewpoint that Man is given dominion over 
>     Woman, Child, and Animal, in that order, (a view I don't support, btw).  
>     :-)  Where would extraterrestials "fit" into this hierachy?  And supposing 
>     they have, shall we say, a "differing" viewpoint?  
    
        Well, I suppose we'd treat them just the way we treat Woman,
        Child, and Animal, in that order.  :-}

        More seriously, I think Alfred was challenging you on the
        claim that the Bible presents the above viewpoint.

        Bob

    I remember reading an article in the Colorado Springs newspaper a year
    or two ago about an evangelical preacher who came to town and presented
    a sociological-theological (and, he argued, biblically-based) hierarchy
    that proceeded from Christ, to the husband, to the wife, to the
    children.  There was even a diagram that involved a hammer (I don't
    remember the details) that illustrated this hierarchy.  This viewpoint
    is not all that uncommon.

    -- Mike

	The man, woman, child thing is a red herring. Can we get off it.
	So far I appear to be the only one who has talked about how people
	from an other planet would affect their religion.

			Alfred

    The author of the base note suggested that Christianity and other
    religions would be profoundly affected.  While that opens up the
    possibility of discussing this topic from a strictly personal
    perspective, I also think that it can't help but lead to broader
    discussion about the effects on Christianity in general.  I see no
    reaason to restrict the discussion to centering on how it would affect
    the one's own beliefs, and I thought that was the point of Karen's
    note. 
    
    -- Mike

    In principle, I think Christianity would welcome other intelligent life
    forms.  But unfortunately, historically Christian institutions like the
    Church and others practice customs that seem to be at odds with what
    biblical principles teach.  I would think that the changes brought on
    by contact with extraterrestrials would probably be more in the
    traditions, practice and customs of Christianity rather than its
    principles.  
    
    It is my guess that the religions of the west like Christianity,
    Judaism, and Islam would be more affected by extraterrestrial contact
    than the eastern religions.  Western religions seem to look at man as a
    special part of creation whereas eastern religions tend to teach that
    man is just a part of creation who should harmonize with nature and the
    rest of the universe.

    RE: .10 Perhaps you are right on both counts. I do not however
    believe that Karen discussed the Christianity in general. Rather
    she took the beliefs of heretics and called it Christianity in
    general.The tone of it, intentional or not, was insulting and I 
    was quite offended by it.

    I am not surprised that others have been reluctant to discuss the
    implications of this on their own religion. It's much easier to
    analyze and criticize others than to examine oneself. I am however
    quite disappointed. I'd hoped for better.

    			Alfred

   Alfred,

   I thought I was on topic in .5!  (smile please)

   Anyhow, there are things to speculate about. Assuming we don't
   burn them at the stake first.  How the state of our religion(s)
   could be viewed by extraterrestials may be the same one we take
   when looking at so call aborigional cultures as being "primitive"
   (not the best choice of words).  Considering the ETs may have done
   more space travel than us (if met here) they would likely have a
   more expansive view than Christians may now hold.  The reverse might
   be true if we met them on their soil.  Could we become missionaries
   again to the natives?  How about the reverse?  When I ask those 
   questions I am thinking of how religion was propagated to the new
   worlds centuries ago.  

   The nature of their religion is what interests me.  Would they have
   a surpreme being, naturist, or who knows?

   Much to speculate on.
   Allison

    >I am not surprised that others have been reluctant to discuss the
    >implications of this on their own religion. It's much easier to
    >analyze and criticize others than to examine oneself. I am however
    >quite disappointed. I'd hoped for better.
    
    I don't find this statement making any sense.  My intentions in
    starting this topic was to discuss the religious implications of the
    human race encountering intelligent extraterrestrial life.  Whether
    noters talk about their own religion or others shouldn't matter.  I
    think we should look at all opinions and ideas however remote they may
    be since this is a highly speculative subject.
    
    >believe that Karen discussed the Christianity in general. Rather
    >she took the beliefs of heretics and called it Christianity in
    >general.The tone of it, intentional or not, was insulting and I 
    >was quite offended by it.
    
    I would tend to agree with Karen in what she says about Christianity. 
    For many centuries, the institutions of Christianity have taken many
    biblical teachings out of context to justify many injustices and
    wrongs.  Any opposition to them and people were branded as heretics. 
    Look at what happened to people like Galileo Galilei who tried to show
    the truth.  He was tried for heresy.  Even after the Reformation, the
    abuses continued in other denominations.  This is not to say that
    Christianity is bad, just that there are some people in the Christian
    church who are misguided or those who call themselves Christians and
    are really not.  Also Christians aren't the only ones who do this,
    Moslems used their religious teachings to justify political and
    territorial conquests and similar injustices.  
    
    So if we were to encounter extraterrestrial life, it would not surprise
    me if people were profoundly affected.  Because even today, people use
    religion to justify their actions.  
    
    

    Alfred,
    
    I did not intend to offend you and purposely addressed my remarks to
    certain aspects of Chrisitianity I personally object to.  I do disagree 
    with you that there would *not* be profound affects in the scenario 
    the base author has proposed.  (And btw, his assessment of Chrisitianity 
    in .14, is also similar to my own.)  
    
    But I *do* agree with you on a couple of things Alfred.  As you do not 
    recognize the type of beliefs I spoke of in .4 as truly representing 
    Christianity, neither do I.  Or perhaps I should say I do not believe 
    that they reflect what Jesus intended.  I also agree with you that the 
    debate over whether or not certain people have souls is inherently NOT 
    Christian, however historical records clearly show that Christian 
    groups *have* made it a Christian debate.  Very strange.
    
    But getting back to extraterrestials, don't you think it's probable that 
    an intense debate over whether they have souls or not would arise?  I 
    certainly do.  I don't believe that Christianity considers that animals 
    have souls, or am I wrong here?  And if these extraterrestials are not 
    humans, might they be considered animals?  (Personally, I think everything 
    that exists in the universe has a soul, so it would not be an issue 
    for me - they have souls.)  
    
    I see the above question as the one the majority of Christians will first 
    struggle with the most.  And the real issue comes in if we get caught in 
    the blind of measuring everything strictly upon human reference.  And yet 
    that's all we have.  How do you think it would be determined that an  
    extraterrestial has a soul?  Can the Bible provide guidance here? 
    Where would Christians look if the Bible cannot help?
    
    Let's assume the vote comes in that they do have souls, and 
    begin to consider the poignant questions you posed in .3:
    
    	1.  Are they without sin?
    
    Scripture has been the basis that Christians use to determine this in
    their own lives.  How would this question be answered for extraterrestials?
    Through their holy writings, if they have them?  And if they have their 
    own "Bible" it would be awhile before humans could learn their language 
    to read it.  So in the meantime do we take their word for it, one 
    way or the other?
    
    	2.  If they are not without sin, did Christ go to them?
    
    How would we determine this?  It is unlikely that Christ would have 
    appeared to them as a human using the name Jesus Christ.  Suppose 
    they have had their own Savior incarnate amongst them and say similar 
    things as did Jesus.  What criteria do you think Christians would use 
    to determine whether this was Jesus or not?  What criteria would you 
    use?
    
    	3.  If Jesus did not go to them, did He come to us for them as 
    	    well?
    
    Perhaps.  I believe that wherever Christ goes the message of 
    his life is for all sentient beings throughout all time.  However, I 
    feel that Christians would be well-advised to seriously contemplate 
    a variety of evangelistic approaches in sharing the "Good News."  
    After all, if these extraterrestials have the technology to visit 
    and communicate with us, I sure would be reluctant to see what could 
    happen if religious zealots, Christian or otherwise, piss them off.
    
    Karen

    Allison .13,
    
    Great questions.  Suppose we were informed by ET's that *we* are 
    heathens and worship a heathen god.  Suppose they have their 
    own "good news" to share, and it's a lot different than ours?
    
    What an interesting turn of events...  
    
    Karen

             <<< ATSE::DOCDISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]PHILOSOPHY.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Philosophy >-
================================================================================
Note 275.1                   Extraterrestrial life.                       1 of 5
ATSE::WAJENBERG "This area zoned for twilight."      34 lines  28-OCT-1991 11:48
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    As moderator:
    
    To discuss actual and alleged UFOs, please see the conference at
    WIDGET::UFOS.  More abstract aspects of ETs can be discussed here.
    
    As noter:
    
    On the religious side, I know of a few conservative Christians who feel 
    that intelligent life on other planets is theologically impossible.  
    Such folk would be very upset by ET contact, I suppose, and might think 
    it was a diabolical deception, unless they were willing to rearrange
    their assumptions.
    
    On the other hand, other Christians have already speculated much more
    freely about the issue.  I suppose the most well-known and influential
    one is C. S. Lewis.  He wrote a trilogy of fantasy/SF novels based on
    his own speculations (put forward in an essay entitled "Religion and
    Rocketry," available in the anthology "God in the Dock").
    
    In his novels, Lewis envisioned at least four rational species sharing
    the solar system with humans.  (This was written before the chances for
    life on Venus and Mars looked so bleak.)  All four species are
    unfallen and sinless.
    
    More ordinary SF usually depicts aliens as morally imperfect as us, 
    though perhaps in strange ways.  In Christian theology, this would mean
    they were fallen, and the question then arises how and whether they
    should be redeemed.  Several SF stories have depicted alien
    incarnations of Christ, to answer this question.
    
    I do not know how other religions would address the existence of
    aliens.  I'm not sure it would pose a problem for most of them.
    
    Earl Wajenberg
================================================================================
Note 275.2                   Extraterrestrial life.                       2 of 5
ATSE::WAJENBERG "This area zoned for twilight."      46 lines  28-OCT-1991 12:36
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    Re .0 Continued:
    
    On the philosophical side, I think contact with aliens would have two
    general forms of influence.
    
    First, there is whatever interesting ideas the alien philosophers
    themselves might have.  Of course, we'll have to wait until contact to
    react to them.
    
    Second, the aliens may shake up assumptions in human philosophy, just
    by their nature, without our listening to any philosophy they may have. 
    The area I'd expect to see most severely shaken is philosophical
    psychology.
    
    Consider the current discussion about innate ideas going on in the
    Locke seminar topic.  We rather expect all intelligent life to
    appreciate the same laws of logic; in science fiction, any aliens that
    do not obviously do so are generally depicted as too alien to even talk
    with; we are so cut off from them, we cannot determine their opinions
    on formal logic.  That might not be very significant, philosophically;
    we might shrug and say that's just the way the world works, so of
    course all intelligent brains adapt to it.
    
    But suppose all intelligent species share substantial agreement on
    fundamentals of morality or esthetics, too.  (No doubt, there would be
    at least as much variation as we find among humans, but there could
    still be a central area of agreement.)  Would this be empirical
    evidence for innate ideas?
    
    Or suppose they *don't*.  Is that evidence *against* innate ideas?
    
    Other philosophies (e.g. Objectivism) draw a dichotomy between Reason
    and Instinct, coincident with the division of Human and Beast.  But 
    aliens add a new side (or several such).  There are beasts, humans,
    AND...  We might see the relationship of reason and instinct
    differently if the instincts were no our own.
    
    I suppose the philosophies of ethics and politics would be affected
    too.  Suppose the aliens use unthought-of forms of government.  Should
    we adopt them, or would they not be workable for our species?  Are
    aliens proper objects of ethical concern?  If so, how do we love these
    neighbors as ourselves when they are so radically different from
    ourselves?  Is it just the same problem that arises between people of
    different personality, which is to say any two people?
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    If it were really important for us to know about extraterrestrials, God
    would doubtless have told us more. There are a few hints that I can
    think of; in the book of Job, there is a reference to "the Sons of God
    coming together and Satan arriving among them. Adam would doubtless
    have represented planet Earth had he not abdicated that privilege by
    sinning. Satan or Lucifer needed a base of operations after he left
    heaven so he went around to the other planets, trying to get them to
    join him in rebellion. Each planet had something like the tree of the
    knowledge of good and evil to test loyalty. Lucifer was restricted to
    its vicinity and was not allowed to annoy and tempt the unfallen
    beings. The beings of the other planets were well aware of the "war in
     heaven" and were very wary of joining Lucifer. He claimed that God was
     stacking the deck against him by scaring these beings with a similar
    fate  if they didn't obey. He claimed that the only way he could
    get a "fair" hearing was for God to make a completely new planet that
    was innocent to all the previous events connected with the rebellion.
    The result was planet earth. 
    	It appeared that God lost that round of the controversy when adam
    and Eve gave their allegience to Lucifer by eating the forbidden fruit.
    God withdrew the Shekinah presence from Earth, but limited Lucifer's
    control over humans. Lucifer continued to attend gatherings of
    planetary leaders as the ruler of Earth. The contest over Job was
    repeated in a thousand variations throughout the centuries.
    War in heaven is mostly a war of words. If force at issue Satan would
    have lost long ago. The premature destruction of the rebells would have
    made it appear that God broke his own law to punish them. This apparent
    arbitrariness would have planted seeds of doubt about God that would
    have sprouted into renewed disloyalty.
    Occasionally some of the prophets gained the ability to see some of
    what was transpiring. For example, Micah saw a discussion that took
    place about how to get rid of Ahab. A lying spirit(either satan or one
    of his fallen allies) said he would accomplish God's purpose by being a
    lying spirit in the "mouth" of Ahab's prophets. It appears that Satan
    was trying to subtly undermine God's government by accomplishing God's
    purposes without using God's principles; That is by breaking God's
    laws. A careful reading of the old testament reveals that many events
    mistakenly attributed to God or His angels actually were done by Satan.
    Much of the confusion about the character of God resulted from these
    types of events. for example Satan is allowed to destroy Job's
    livestock, but the fire is attributed to God. God takes responsibility
    for what He allows.
    	 Jesus demonstrated to both Angels and unfallen beings what the
    true nature of Lucifers government would be. Satan was cast to earth in
    that he could no longer attend the cousels of heaven as the
    representative of Earth.(God didn't compell the consciences of His
    creation. Remaining in good standing with God was based only upon
    continued obedience, not having doubts and reservations. Satan and 1/3
    of the angels "left their 1st estate", ie quit doing their appointed
    jobs for God. Many others were heavily influenced by Satan's arguments,
    but not enough to quit working for God.) After the crucifixion the
    loyalty of the unfallen worlds was firmly established. A few questions
    remained to be answered if rebellion was to be completely laid to rest.
    Satan argued that God was unfair to save sinful humans and exclude him
    from returning and that God's laws were impossible for humans to keep.
    So far God appears to be losing that argument. Christians keep slipping
    back into sin, making God look arbitrary. Eventually the 144,000 will
    prove that God's redemption is total.(This could get ratholed as their
    are doubtless readers who have different opinions about the 144,000.
    I've met some who believed theyactually were members of that group without
    being very convincing) 
    	I suspect that there is some kind of nightly news service that
    carries information about events here throughout the universe. Perhaps
    the Space around our planet is crowded with alien news teams picking up
    on the significant events. doubtless the really "big events"  are
    completely secondary stories. Jimmy Swaggart getting caught was much
    less of a story than Jimmy Swaggart getting away with it for so long.
    
    	Satan and the other fallen angels have throughout history used
    various means to influence and control humans without revealing their
    true identity. They have gained allegience by appearing as various
    gods. Another way is by masquerading as dead people come back from the
    grave. Now they are taking advantage of modern conditions by appearing
    as aliens. Most aliens reveal their satanic origin by their mode of
    operations. 
    
    	 Just as all trees share certain characteristics, so all beings
    throughout the universe that are made in the image of God share certain
    characteristics. Just as trees are widely adapted to many different
    habitats, beings doubtless are too. Behaviours and thought patterns
    that would appear to violate God's laws as we know them would reveal
    and underlying harmony with the principle of love.
    
     IMHO we are being watched by Angels and alien beings. Our successes
    and failures are intensely interesting to the rest of the universe.
    Many times they turn away in disgust to other more promising subjects.
    Perhaps they are looking at you right now to see how you will react to
    this ;^)
    
    john 

    So, the premise here seems to be that we encounter or are visited
    by ET's of equal or superior intelligence. I think that for some,
    this would in fact present some serious problems with their own
    personal faith. Or at least their understanding of it. Christians
    are taught to test all things by the scriptures. If these ET's had
    encountered Christ on their own planet in any form, then their beliefs
    should parallel ours, thus passing the test of scripture. Even so,
    I'd bet that Christians would be divided in their opinions. 
    
    How about this senario...? The Magellan space probe continues on
    beyond our own solar system and continues to send data and pictures
    from deep space. ( This assumes the antenna problems are resolved :^})
    Then one day, clear photos of a distant planet with intelligent life
    forms are received. They seem to have by our standards, a primative
    form of civilization. Now we know that they are there, but know
    nothing about them other than what can be gleaned from the photos.
    Our own ability for space travel will not permit visitation from
    Earth within the human life-span of one generation. Now, in light
    of this topic, everything would have to be presumed and/or speculated
    by the religions of this world. Science would want more, and better
    probes for learning more. Perhaps an attempt to make our presence
    known would be considered. But if we somehow were able to do so,
    what kind of impact would it have on these presumably inferior
    life forms? Would we be thought of as gods, an invading force? No,
    maybe we better just observe and not interfere in any way. But then,
    perhaps these are "lost souls" and need to receive the Gospel. No,
    we are deceived, and it's all a Satanic hoax! Anyway, it could go
    on and on.
    
    				Mel

        re Note 331.19 by HOTWTR::ANDRES_ME:

>     The Magellan space probe continues on
>     beyond our own solar system and continues to send data and pictures
>     from deep space. ( This assumes the antenna problems are resolved :^})

        Nit: more likely one of the Voyagers (or one of the earlier
        outer-planet missions) -- Magellan is safely in orbit around
        Venus, and the probe with the stuck antenna is Galileo, which
        likewise is designed to orbit and probe Jupiter, not escape.

        Bob

    re: .19
    
    >known would be considered. But if we somehow were able to do so,
    >what kind of impact would it have on these presumably inferior
    >life forms? Would we be thought of as gods, an invading force? No,
    
    If the human race were able to get to a planet with an intelligent life
    form at a lower technological development; I fear the result might be
    the same as what happened to the Indians in America or the Hawaiians
    with the arrival of the Europeans.  All you need is a few unscrupulous
    humans and they may decide to exploit the natives, destroy their
    culture , religion and language to the point where they are only a
    shadow of their former selves.
    

    re: the nit - Sorry about that, I wasn't sure at the time, and
    didn't take the time to look up the correct information. I just
    took a guess as it was getting late into the evening. But, that 
    aside, I'd still like to see further comments reguarding the
    senario. I think that if such a planet were known, that not only
    religions would be divided, but all levels of of society would
    find issues to quibble about. The last reply brings up a valid
    point. But, in my senario, we have only just discovered their
    existance, and do not ourselves have the technological ability
    to impact their lives in any way. For now, we can only observe,
    and know that what we receive is already somewhat old information.
    You can bet, that there would be those that would feel that we
    should develop the technology to communicate, and influence their
    destiny, and others that would be opposed. Still others would
    want to turn it into an experiment, influencing them without
    revealing ourselves to them (playing God). Personally, I don't
    expect that there is any feasibility to my senario. I just put
    it up for an exercise in speculation and thought.
    
    				Mel

    re: .22
    
    Mel,
    
    Let me see if I understand your scenario.  You are saying that if our
    level of technology is at the point where all we can do is for example
    have a satellite send back video pictures of a civilization in progress
    that is technologically less developed than we are on another planet.
    They could be in the Stone Age or still using wooden sailing ships.
    
    From a religious point of view it would definitely change our view of
    ourselves.  Finding another intelligent race in the universe would
    change the Judeo-Christian concept of man being a specially created
    being.  They may be looked upon in two ways.  Some people may see them
    as kindred souls and urge efforts to reach them to give them a message
    of salvation.  This may result in the development of technology to
    reach them.  Others may see them as not being human and not worthy of
    the salvation message that Christianity teaches.  Since the alien
    culture is too far away to be bothered with, this group of people may
    simply ignore them.
    
    Eastern philosophies/religions would simply accept them as part of the
    universe.  Pantheists will look at the religion of the aliens as just
    another incarnation of God.
    
    ktlam...

    Anyone seen the movie "Enemy Mine" with Dennis Quaid and Lou Gossett,
    Jr.?
    
    Foreign and familiar religious and cultural thought is explored to no
    small degree in this film where mortal enemies, both intelligent, one
    human, one reptilian, must become allies in order to survive in a hostile
    environment.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    Richard,
    
    I have and I liked it *a lot*.  The "reptilian" teaches the human much
    more than he ever knew about spirituality and love.
    
    Yeah...it was a *good* movie. :-)
    
    Karen

    Yes, Richard - great movie, one of my favorites...
    
    Ro
    

If we accept God as being limitless, why do we limit God to one
universe? Are we thus saying God has limits. If, pick your creation
theory, God created the universe, how can we say he created only 
one? 

Similarily, I wonder whether wishing Christ to return is perhaps
an exclusive answer. Perhaps I should ask Christ to finish
working the other side of the street a little faster.

If God gave part of himself, Christ, to us, why should we assume God
has only one gift for this universe? Do we assume he has only one 
Christ for the entire universe? What about the universe "next
door" or down the street? 

Is God restricted to patterning Christ's life after one Semetic rite 
of worship & sacrifice exclusively? 

Contrarily, if another society, albeit sexual or asexual in form,
is favored by God and God wishes to ehance its beliefs, is God proscribed 
similar off-spring to work miracles or to teach it of God? 


Best wishes,
Rollyn