| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 304.1 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Watch your peace & cues | Fri Sep 06 1991 23:46 | 9 |
| Re: .0
We're not ignoring you, Mark.
I imagine Robin Russo, Phil Yerkess, or Mark Sornson will be
responding in the near future. (And maybe others!)
Peace,
Richard
|
| 304.2 | | COMET::HAYESJ | Duck and cover! | Sun Sep 08 1991 06:30 | 31 |
| re: .0 Mark
> this is the first instance where they have stated that
> they will return and convince me of this date, 1914.
> I don't believe they can do it.
If you keep an open mind, they may just surprise you when they return.
> Overall, I've found them pleasant and able to cause me to dig
> deep and at times, surprise them (and myself :-).
At Matt 22:39 Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. That is why
Jehovah's Witnesses go from house to house, spreading the good news of
God's Kingdom, discussing Bible subjects, and encouraging people to not
only read, but *study* their Bibles.
> Any thoughts about 1914, the End Times, Satan's Fall, JWs ???
You have a far better way to discuss this than a notes conference. You
can speak with the Witnesses face to face when they return to visit with
you. Speaking for myself, as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I feel that it
wouldn't be very considerate for me to jump into a conversation that has
already been started by one of my brothers, especially since I wouldn't
be able to hear most of it. Anyway, that live conversation is a much more
efficient way to discuss what is a rather deep subject. They'll be saying
the same things that any of Jehovah's Witnesses would tell you in this con-
ference, and you'll be able to cover a lot more in less time.
Steve
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| 304.3 | Keep it in notes. | DNEAST::DIMUZIO_MART | | Mon Sep 09 1991 13:50 | 19 |
|
I would encourage this discussion to continue here and not 'offline'.
I have been looking for sound biblical backing for the 1914 date for
a couple yrs. now. What typically happens is that the 'harder to
understand' doctrines of the watchtower society are quickly moved to
an offline setting for some reason i'm still not sure of. I was taught
by the witnesses that in fact Christ returned in 1914 and not to look
forward to his visible return again. I asked very specific questions
in the old Religion conference a couple years ago about 1914 and unless
I missed something,never really got an answer. I am not anti-witness,
and in fact feel their interpretation of scripture deserves a longer
look than what most main line Christians are willing to give. So, lets
'reason together' on all points and not push into private settings the
less well known, harder to understand,doctrines of the church,group,or
organization we have choosen to attend.
Marty
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| 304.4 | follow-up | POBOX::GAJOWNIK | | Mon Sep 09 1991 15:40 | 24 |
|
What I discovered over the weekend is that the JWs' understanding of
Jesus Christ is different from my own.
They believe that Jesus Christ is the Archangel Michael.
I on the other hand believe in the Holy Trinity.
They don't believe in the Holy Spirit at all.
Of course I was frustrated by the different pictures that were painted
of Jesus Christ.
Some of their reasoning behind 1914 was that supposedly that is the
year Michael (the risen Christ by their definition) fought Satan
in the heavens and, having lost, Satan was casted down to earth.
It was decided that a study of the Bible to defend each other's
characterization of Jesus Christ was needed.
As of yet I have not found any reference in the Bible (NIV) of
Jesus Christ being referred to as an angel, although I have found
a number of references to His deity.
-Mark
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| 304.5 | | CSC32::LECOMPTE | MARANATHA! | Tue Sep 10 1991 08:42 | 6 |
|
Mark,
Just a word of warning. Make sure that you stick to
a translation of the Bible that YOU trust.
_ed-
|
| 304.6 | | YERKLE::YERKESS | bring me sunshine in your smile | Tue Sep 10 1991 09:59 | 30 |
| re .4
Hi Mark,
It is commendable how you are reacting to these Jehovah's Witnesses
that have called and that you have decided to look at the Bible
together. You are encouraged to use your own favoured version of
the Bible this will help you to see that what they are saying is not
just from their own favoured Bible translation.
As you may gather, these ones that are calling on you will do much
research before calling back. May I suggest that you try to do the
same, for example in reply .0 you said that you believe that Satan
was cast down from heavens eons ago, well show them through your
own research of Scripture and how it relates to the portion of
Scripture that they showed you. This will help you to get your
own arguments clear in your own mind, ofcourse with the busy lives
we lead we dont always have the time to do this. Also you might be
suprised by the outcome of your own research.
Please keep an open mind even though you may find the differing
views frustating to begin with.
Phil.
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| 304.7 | | YERKLE::YERKESS | bring me sunshine in your smile | Tue Sep 10 1991 10:55 | 38 |
| re .3
Hi Marty,
I am not sure that this is the right forum for discussing the
Scripture that points chronologically to 1914 as that date that
Jesus was enthroned as king in the heavens , Revelation 12:10.
mainly for the reasons that you give in your reply :
;I am not anti-witness,
;and in fact feel their interpretation of scripture deserves a longer
;look than what most main line Christians are willing to give.
I realise that from your sincere replies that you are not anti-witness.
But for yourself or those who are interested there is a book
"Let Your Kingdom Come" that explains why Jehovah's Witnesses point
to 1914 as the date when Jesus was enthroned. You can asked Jehovah's
Witnesses to obtain you a copy, in the UK it is offered on a
contribution of 70 pence (approx 1 US dollar) but as I understand it,
it is offered on voluntary contributions in the US. If you are not
often contacted by Jehovah's Witnesses then I am willing to forward
a copy via the post for no cost. As long as, if you feel that the book
is worth a contribution that give one the next time A Jehovah's Witness
calls at your door. All contributions go to producing more literature.
This book will explain far better than I can why we intrepret 1914.
Please drop me some email with your address if you would like me to
forward the book onto you.
Perhaps, what could be discussed in this forum is "Do the conditions
of the world point to us being in the last days?" or "Is the sign
of Jesus' presense being fulfilled, Matthew 24:3"
I am away for a few days on business so won't be able to answer any
further questions until I get back.
Phil.
|
| 304.8 | Thanks | DNEAST::DIMUZIO_MART | | Tue Sep 10 1991 12:29 | 31 |
|
Phil
I respect your reasons for not wanting to discuss the 1914 topic
in this forum and will pursue this no further. And thanks for the
generous offer to provide me with a book. I have (i believe) every
book published by the Watchtower Society since the 1940's as well as
every publication of the Awake and Watchtower magazines back to that
same period. After a couple years of extensive 'home' study with quite
a cross section of witnesses as well as reading material and
interfacing with folks having a similar experience as mine,I have
yet to be convinced of the validity of the interpretation of scripture
in the book of Daniel pointing to 1914. There are a some other topics
I just can't see in the scriptures as well,but am still open and
willing to be shown where I have missed something. There sure are
quite an impressive number of folks who seem to agree with you,I
have been known to be 'thick headed' at times! I commend you and all
witnesses for the heart felt effort to spread Christianity throughout
all the world. It is a great work the Watchtower Society is doing and
I for one have over come my tendency to condemn a group just because I
personally do not agree completely with their doctrine. I am currently
not convinced that there is any single religion/sect/group that are
the chosen channel thru which God is working. I see too much of the
presence of the spirit of God working in the lives of many,many people
who belong to many different churches.
God Bless
Marty
|
| 304.9 | | YERKLE::YERKESS | bring me sunshine in your smile | Wed Sep 11 1991 02:20 | 12 |
| re .4
Hi Mark,
You say that the Witnesses don't believe in the holy spirit. Could this
be a misunderstanding, Jehovah's witnesses ask for God's holy spirit
all the time in prayer. Jehovah's Witnesses dont see the holy spirit
being a person rather God's active force, compare Genesis 1:2.
Phil.
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| 304.10 | | POBOX::GAJOWNIK | | Thu Sep 12 1991 15:19 | 18 |
|
Of course the one element that has brought the JWs and myself to a
point of conflict is the different Bible translations we each refer
to.
Wherein my Bible it might read, the Spirit, their version will read,
the spirit.
And so I will say the Holy Spirit is an individual, they will say no,
it is a force or power.
Who's right?
My guess is that wherever I find reference in my Bible to Jesus being
God the Son, it will read different in their's.
-Mark
|
| 304.11 | | ILLUSN::SORNSON | Are all your pets called 'Eric'? | Thu Sep 12 1991 15:49 | 16 |
| re .10 (POBOX::GAJOWNIK)
> My guess is that wherever I find reference in my Bible to Jesus being
> God the Son, it will read different in their's.
If I was a gambling man, I'd put money down that you won't find the
exact phrase "God the Son" in *any* translation of the Bible. It's
certainly not in any of the standard Catholic or Protestant
translations, and isn't in any of the independent translations I've
read, either. (Note that you'll find the phrase "God the Father" quite
often.) The same goes for the expression "God the Holy Spirit." The
"Godship" of the Son and Holy Spirit is a doctrine that is inferred
from a number of scriptures, but isn't found specifically and plainly
in any one place.
-mark.
|
| 304.12 | Most Holy Trinity | SDSVAX::SWEENEY | SOAPBOX: more thought, more talk | Fri Sep 13 1991 21:49 | 16 |
| It would be one thing to say that the Jehovah's Witnesses deny the
Trinity. It's quite another to suggest that the hundreds of millions of
Catholics and Protestants in the world believe in the Trinity without
a foundation for this belief in the Bible:
"Go, therefore, make disciples of all the nations; baptize them in the
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit..." Mt 28:19
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship
of the Holy Spirit be with you all." 2 Co 13:13 these words are in the
Catholic mass
also Jn 14:26, 15:26 (where reference to the person of the Holy Spirit
is unambiguous), 1 Pe 1:2, Rm 1:4, 15:16,30; 1 Co 1:10-16,
6:11,14,15,19 and I have many other references to the identification in
Scriptures of the God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
|