Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Sorry, Glen, I was the one who posted the note and then deleted it. 
    I can repost it if you would like.
    
    -- Mike

| Sorry, Glen, I was the one who posted the note and then deleted it.
| I can repost it if you would like.

	Would you? I think it would make a VERY interesting topic!


Glen

>Note 223.5

>	Where does the belief that world peace will occur only when the
>entire population of the world is evangelized come from?

>	I have heard this before, but I don't know where it comes from.
>Is it based on Scripture?  Or teaching about Scripture?  Is it based upon
>the teachings of Jesus?  The Revelation of St. John the Divine?

	I posed these questions before, but I'm still looking for answers.
I now pose these as "toss-up" questions.

Peace,
Richard

    re:  .3  Richard
    
    Read Matt 24:14 and then Re 21:1-5.  There are many other Scriptures
    that describe the wonderful benefits we can receive under Jehovah's
    Kingdom, through his King, Jesus Christ.  But I think these answer your
    questions without getting too lengthy.
    
    6,000+ years of human history show us that mankind cannot accomplish
    true peace on his own.  God's Kingdom is the only real answer.
    
    Steve

    Hi Richard,
    
    Just to follow on what Steve said in the last reply. Matthew 24:14
    NWT reads "And this good news of the  kingdom will be preached in all
    the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end
    will come." The end of what? Well this verse was an answer by Jesus to
    the question posed by his disciples in verse 3 NWT which was "Tell us,
    When will these be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of
    the conclusion of the system of things?" So the disciples qualified
    their question about the destruction of the temple with another
    question. Which was "what will be the sign of your presence  and of the
    conclusion of the system of things?" So the end will be the end of this
    "system of things", in other words  this world of strife. A new
    government will be ushered in lead by Jesus Christ, who will bring
    about a peaceful world, compare Isaiah 9:6,7.
    
    Part of this preaching work will be teaching people how to be peaceful
    with their neighbour, so that these ones that listen will be well
    prepared for this new system. This is brought out in Isaiah 2:2-4.
    
    Interestingly, part of this sign of the  end of this system of things is
    "while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things
    coming upon the inhabited earth;" Luke 21:26 NWT. This seems to hand in 
    hand with the other note about the future of the earth, men have become 
    faint out of fear of what effect pollution and nuclear weapons will have 
    on the earth.
    
    
    So it's just not that the worldwide preaching will take place before
    peaceful conditions come about. Many other things would have to happen.
    Here are some Bible verses that show what else would be going before
    the end comes, Matthew chapters 24 and 25, Mark 13, Luke 21. Also an
    insight to what people would be like is found in 2 Timothy 3:1-5.
    
    
    Phil.
    

    re:  .5  
    
    Thanks for adding to my reply, Phil.  I would have elaborated more for
    Richard, but I had to do a time consuming reply for tipic 124.  Anyway,
    you detailed it further than I probably would have, given the time.
    
    Steve
    

I state the answer in a different way.  It is true that world peace
will only occur when the whole world is evangalized (where this does
not mean every person, but rather a representative from every tribe/nation).
However, this is not cause/effect.

World peace will occur only when God establishes His kingdom on the
earth and not a moment before.  (I am referring to his final kingdom
on earth; I believe He has already established a kingdom here when
Jesus was born.)  This kingdom will come when Jesus returns and
overthrows Satan (as Revelations describes).

Collis

    re: last 3
    
    Then is it your posture that the Kingdom lies in the future and
    not in the present?
    
    Richard

re:  .8  Richard
   
    
  > Then is it your posture that the Kingdom lies in the future and
  > not in the present?

Daniel 2:44 says that God will set up a kingdom that will never be brought
to ruin, and that it will crush all other kingdoms.  Is it your posture
that this crushing has already occurred?

It is apparant that Rev 12:12 describes where we are in the stream of time.  
Since the beginning of WWI in 1914 the "woes" to the earth have increased
like never before in history.  Since that time we've seen two world wars,
and since the end of WWII, there hasn't been a day of peace on the planet.
About a quarter of the earth's population is suffering from starvation.  There
have been almost as many major earthquakes during this century than in the
last thousand years.  The water and air supply are polluted to the point of
being a serious health risk.  The world continues to careen from one crisis
to another.  Can mankind solve his own problems?  Jer 10:23 (NWT) gives us
the answer:  "I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not
belong.  It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."

At Matt 6:9-13 Jesus gave us a model prayer that showed us the kind of things
we should ask for.  Verse 10 tells us to pray for the Kingdom to come and for
God's will to take place on the earth, as in heaven.  Do you think the things
I described in the paragraph above are God's will?  Do you think they are an
example of what Kingdom rule is like?  Of course not.  Read Rev 21:3, 4 and
see what God's Kingdom promises for the earth.


>                       -< Always waiting, aren't we? >-

Patience, Richard; it won't be long now.

Steve

re.8

Hi Richard,

  > Then is it your posture that the Kingdom lies in the future and
  > not in the present?

Hewbrews 10:12-13 NWT reads "But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins
perpetually and sat down at the righthand of God, from then on waiting until
his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet."

Revelation 12:10 NWT reads "And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now
has come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God
and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has
been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!"

As Steve shows in his last reply .9 , at the birth of this kingdom, it is 
not a good time for the earth but comfort can be drawn from Revelation 12:12
because the Devil only has a short period of time.

As brought out by Psalms 110:2 when enthroned Jehovah's anointed one will be 
told to "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies."

Jehovah has decided a time for when the wicked ones will be cut off, compare
Psalms 37:34. After Armageddon righteous mankind will see the full affects
from this heavenly kingdom.

>                       -< Always waiting, aren't we? >-

It may seem like a long time to us, rather like watching toast brown under the 
grill. But 2 Peter 3:9 NWT reads "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise,
as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does
not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance."

Before the great war of Armageddon a separating work needs to be done as
brought out by Mattthew 25:31,32,46.

But how can we be sure of what God's word says about the end, well in Isaiah 
46:10 NWT we have the assurance from the author "the One telling from the 
beginning the finale".

Phil.

    I have moved .11, .12, and .13 to Note 301 to create a new topic.
    
    Richard Jones-Christie
    CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE/Co-moderator

In the Bible it is apparent, and stated somewhere in the O.T., that 
people could come to know God (before Christ took physical form).  Is 
there a common Christian understanding of how this happens?  In 
pre-Christian times, did this occur through Christ (the Son), or was it 
a direct relationship with God (the Father)?  If it was a direct 
relationship with the Father, then is that still considered possible 
today?  If not, why not?  If so, is it accomplished as stated in the 
O.T., or has some other viewpoint taken precedence over the O.T. 
statements?  (Sorry, I can't provide chapter/verse now as I am out of 
town and have no access to a Bible.  I can provide it next week if 
necessary.)

Thanks,
Jeff

Hmmm... I'm kind of surprised that none of the Christian/biblical 
scholars in here have had any input to the questions in -1.  What sayeth 
you guys? :-)

Jeff

	RE: .16 I missed .15 the first time around. I don't always have
	enough time to read everything so I SET SEEN a lot. I would have
	first asked for an O.T. reference (but you knew that :-) ).

	I've always been fuzzy on the state of things before Christ came.
	And it's seldom addressed in sermons I've heard because it is mostly
	an academic point. After all Christ has come and there is not much
	we can do about the past.

	Of course being perfect was always an option. But noone before Jesus
	was able to pull it off. I don't hnestly know what other options were
	available.

				Alfred

    re. .15-.17
    
    	Enoch walked with God...
    	Abraham was called Gods friend...
    	David was a man after Gods own heart...
    
    There are many examples in the OT of men having special relationship
    with God.  The key word here is 'relationship'.  They entrusted their
    lives their total beings to the total revealation of God in their
    particular lives.
    
    Enoch, placed his trust in the God of creation, the loving God of Eden.
    Abraham, placed his trust in the God of promise, the God that keeps his 
    word.
    David, placed his trust, in the God that accepts all those that would
    repent and come before Him with a broken and contrite spirit.
    
    Christians, place their trust in the God that create the heavens and
    the earth, the God that fulfilled all of His promises in Jesus Christ,
    that will receive all that will come to Him in humility and repentance.
    
    The God of the old testement is the same God of the new testement.  He 
    still desires that all men come to Him.  Only now He has made it
    easier.  We don't have to trust stories of men handed down through
    generations we have 'the man' Christ Jesus, who is the embodiment of
    God, the promise of God and the word of God,  He is God.  
    
    	So yes those in the old testement came to God in the same way we
    do.  Only now we see God a little more clearly in the revealation of 
    Himself in the Son.  Jesus said if you see me you have seen the Father.
    
    _ed-

Re: Alfred and Ed

Thanks for your responses.  I have some comments, but I'll have to save
them for next week.  I'm out of town for a seminar the rest of the week
and will not have access to a system.

Jeff

    Not sure where else to ask this...
    
    Can someone explain the significance of the color purple in
    Christian religious ceremony (or tell me where I can do some
    reading to find out)?
    
    I'm interested in both "official" reasons for the use of the
    color as well as any historical references and/or speculation
    around how it came to be important.  
    
    I'm thinking specifically of the Catholic Mass.  I recall from
    when I attended church that there were specific holy days when
    the priest would wear purple (instead of green or gold or white).
    
    Thanks,
    
    /Greg

The only thing that quickly comes to mind is that purple was a sign
of royalty,..prince of the Church, etc. Purple originally came from
a crushed shell that was difficult to find, I think.

The senators of Rome were distinguished by the purple hem of their 
togas.
Best wishes,
Rollyn

    in the Episcopal church calendar the colors of the vestments
    are linked to the various seasons, feasts, and holy days.
    
    violet is used for the penitential periods of Advent and Lent.
    
    white, red, crimson, green and black are also used.
    
    peter

    I agree with peter.
    
    There are colors which correspond to the liturgical calendar;
    red for the season of Pentecost is all I know by memory.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    Green is for Kingdomtide.
    White is for celebrations (Easter, Christmas)
    Black is Good Friday but I don't know what else...

    Purple is for the lenten season.

    Red is for the time between Easter and Advent I think...
    (I've only been an Episcopalian for 47 years! ;-) )
    and purple is for Advent as well as Lent.
    
    Bonnie

    Gee, we have green then (except for Pentecost, when we have red...)
    
    (I get awfully tired of green -- or maybe we just need new
    whatever-they're-called!)

White:	symbol of purity, joy,and the bright light of truth.
	used for seasons and days of the Church Year relating to our Lord:
	    Christmas, Easter, the Epiphany, Ascension, Trinity Sunday,
	    the Transfiguration
	  for a saint, if not a martyr
	  used at Baptism, Confirmation, Ordination
	  the celebration of a Marriage and the Burial of the Dead
	  services of Thanksgiving:
	    Thanksgiving Day, Independence Day, Anniversary and Dedication 
	    Festivals
	  services celebrating the Blessed Sacrament

Violet:	color of penitence and expectation, traditionally for Lent & Advent
	may also be used at the Burial of the Dead, Ember and Rogation Days
	use of unbleached linen or similar material may also be used for Lent

Red:	symbol of blood
	used for Martyr's days
	symbol of the Holy Spirit, so used on Pentecost
	also becoming popular for Holy Week and Ordinations

Green:	the common color of the Church; symbol of hope, life, & nature
	used for common seasons after Epiphany & Pentecost

Black:	symbol of mourning
	may be used on Good Friday and for Burials

Blue is popularly being used on joyful days of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Dark Blue is an ancient alternative color for Advent

Peace,

Jim  (just call 1-800-LITURGY  (no not really...))

    Nancy I *knew* I was wrong - it's green not red in the summer, thanks..
    
    (blushing)
    
    Bonnie

    Actually, I don't particularly care for following the liturgical year
    with "prescribed" colors!  (That's my Bible-belt preachinf-focused
    upbringing, I guess!)  To me the long Kingdomtide green season gets
    boring -- and I really dislike anything that clashes with red and green
    during Advent -- and both purple and blue *do* seem to clash!
    
    Red cloths can be very nice, at times, but I particularly like the
    white in our church, which is very dark wood.  It livens up the
    sanctuary and *feels* celebratory!  And, if Sunday is to commemorate
    the Resurrection, then every Sunday should be celebratory!
    
    Oh well, just some ramblin's here...carry on!  :-)
    
    Nancy
    
    

    Being curious and a skeptic I tend to question any text out of
   context.  I have the following quote can anyone shed some light
   and to the context and or peripeheral text.


   "Only when male becomes female, and female becomes male, will ye 
    see the Kingdom of God."
                    -- Jesus Christ, according to the Gospel of St. Jude

   Both analysis and speculation welcome as well.

   Peace,
   Allison

    RE: .31  Allison,
    
               I have often wondered why people have such a need to
    establish gender with God.  Though your "Gospel" is one that I haven't
    read.  :-}
    
    Dave

	RE: .31 I can't find it in my copy of Jude. Do you have any more then
	what you entered. Jude has only one chapter of 25 verses BTW. 

			Alfred

	Also as Dave alluded, the Gospels are usually only Matthew, Mark, Luke 
	and John. There is a book of Jude though.

			Alfred

   I think Alfred is close to it.  I have been told it is not in the 
   Bible.  Since I recieved it as you see it it was a curiousity to me.

   I do feel that the quote is more than a comment about male and
   female in the house of God.

   Peace,
   Allison

Maybe before you spend much time worrying about the quote, you ought to
find out who supposedly wrote "The Gospel of St. Jude" and when.

It doesn't even ring a bell as being one of the commonly known heretical
gospels of the first few centuries of the church.

Does it have any historical basis?  Who has a copy of it?

/john

    I'm not reading this at home where I have my texts on the
    pseudepigrapha to know if this so-called Gospel of St. Jude is ancient,
    medieval, modern, or just a Notes hoax.
    
    In any case, the idea that our mortal bodies must be transformed as
    opposed to our spirit as a condition of salvation is absurd.

There is a 2nd century Gnostic Gospel of Judas Iscariot (not Jude).

I doubt the quote is from that, since it is listed as "lost".

I have no references in my material on the pseudoepigraphia to a Gospel of Jude.

/john

<    In any case, the idea that our mortal bodies must be transformed as
<    opposed to our spirit as a condition of salvation is absurd.

   Patrick,

   I am inclined to agree.  My reasons for exploring the quote is
   to validate it if it indeed is from old text, or invalidate it.
   I also wanted to if valid to see the context from which it was
   extracted is possible.  

   Or in plain english, it is an intellectual exercise that is
   a curiousity.  Beyond that it proves/disproves nothing of
   significance beyond a factual answer.

   Allison

    My sources list only a Gospel of James and a Gospel of Thomas as part
    of the pseudepigrapha.  The Gospel of Jude seems to be a very recent
    hoax.

   In text there is rarely are hoaxes.  It is likely incorrect
   transliteration or mis-attribution.  Though if it is a hoax
   then it's origins are of interest.

   Either that or someone was trying to make a point!  ;-)

   Peace,
   Allison

>In text there is rarely are hoaxes.

Huh?  Most hoaxes are text, not pictures.

Allison,

I've found a quote very similar to the one you posted.  It's from
the Gospel of Thomas in the Nag Hammadi collection.  The introduction 
says that:

	"The authorship of the Gospel of Thomas is attributed to 
	Didymos Judas Thomas, that is, Judas 'the Twin'..."

From the text:

	"...when you make the male and the female one and the same, so
	that the male not be male nor the female female...then will you
	enter [the Kingdom]."

and related to it:

	"For every woman who will make herself male will enter the
	Kingdom of Heaven." 

Hope this helps.


Peace,

Joe

   Joe,

   Thankyou.  I wasn't so much looking for the correct quote as I was
   more interested in getting it's pedigree and history.  Your research
   is most helpful in de-mything what I had suspected was more likely
   mis-transcription than a hoax.  Sometimes the mis-transscription has
   an interesting story in itself.

   Peace,
   Allison

        A general question:

        Can anyone tell me at what time and network Ross Perot's
        �(���)� rebroadcast of his 30-minute infomercial will be on
        tonight?

        Can anyone tell me at what time and network (I assume all
        three+) the presidential debate on Sunday night will be held?

        Thanks,
        Bob (who is going away and needs to program his VCR!)

I saw a sign on Route 3 last night that said 9:30.  I forget
the network.

Collis

    I heard the first debate is scheduled for Sunday at 7:00 PM Eastern.
    That's 5:00 PM Mountain.  I'll be in church.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    Anyone out there have a copy of the Koran and a workstation running
    BOOKREADER that they can add books to? I've recently come upon a
    soft copy of the Koran that I intend to make a BOOKREADER version of.
    When I get it done I'd like to have someone look it over for me before
    I make it public. Send mail if you can and are interested in helping.

    	Thanks,
    		Alfred

	Q: does anybody know of a religion or faith that teaches that those
	   taken to heaven will be later returned to the earth?

	Thanks in advance for any pointers that you may have.

	Phil.

    Sort of. In the ancient Norse religion, actually still practiced by
    some in Iceland, heroes who died in battle were taken to the home of
    the Gods. There they trained for the great last battle between good
    and evil which was to be fought on earth. 
    
    			Alfred

    
    	One of the main points of many Eastern religions and beliefs such
    	as Hinduism is that of Reincarnation, which is another way of
    	saying that the real self inside the physical body returns to
    	Earth to occupy another body after spending some time in the
    	"Heaven" world. 
    
    			Juan

    Son-of-a-gun but anybody have a clue where my recently entered basenote
    disappeared to???  I entered it at about 12:15 Central Ststes Time.
    
    	Regards,
    
    	Ron
    

    Don't know for certain, Ron.  Would you be willing to repost it??
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    
    PS  I *did* move your inquiry to this string, rather than creating
    a new basenote from it.  Hope that's okay by you.
    

    Holy Smokes!  I just got a message from a moderator of one of the OSF/1
    notesfiles!  He wondered whether I REALLY meant to put my basenote in
    that notesfile!!!
    
    Groan.
    
    Well; it at least got ONE reply!
    
    	:-)
    
    ps: that is, so far.
    
    		:-)
    

re Note 265.54 by DLO15::FRANCEY:

>     Holy Smokes!  I just got a message from a moderator of one of the OSF/1
>     notesfiles!  He wondered whether I REALLY meant to put my basenote in
>     that notesfile!!!
  
        Well, I am encouraged, and I think that they would be
        encouraged, to find that serious Unix users are not
        one-dimensional nerds!

        Bob

    RE: .54

    You mean I'm not the *only* person to forget where I am
    in cyberville?   :-)

    Tom

    
    >You mean I'm not the *only* person to forget where I am
    >in cyberville?   :-)
    
    You would not believe how often this happens. I've sent quite a few
    "are you sure this is in the right conference?" messages over the last
    several years. 
    
    			Alfred

    I'd like to know what happened to my notes that were posted in here and
    also one of Cindy's in response to my note.
    
    Would anyone care to explain why notes referring to the discussion at
    hand and in response to Patricias .27 were deleted, moved without
    pointer?
    
    I am extracting this note as it posts just in case it gets deleted as
    well.
    
    Nancy

Check under "What is a Christian religion?" entries 22.306 and 22.307.
    
Both entries were moved to the more relevant topic.  I regret that I was
called away after moving the notes and before properly notifying the
participants.

I also moved 265.58 from topic 824.

Richard Jones-Christie
Co-moderator/CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE
    

As far as I'm concerned, any of my notes can be
moved to a more relevant topic at any time.
If I disagree (as I did once), I'll move it back.  :-)

Collis

hi again,
i understand the fruit of the tree with which eve was tempted in the 
garden eden was an apple.

has the meaning/symbolism of the 'apple' been discussed in this conference 
somewhere?

andreas.

re .61

Andreas,

The Bible doesn't say which fruit it was, and it
certainly doesn't comdemn the eating of apples.

Why apple I don't know. My mother mentioned to
me about the apple's core getting stuck in Adam's
throat, hence the 'Adam's apple'. But there is
nothing in the Bible to back this up.

It would be interesting to know were this originated
from.

Phil.

    .61
    
    True, traditional depictions often use an apple.  Genesis records the
    tempting edible as "the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good
    and evil."
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    	Some circles believe that the "fruit" that adam and eve took
    	was sex.

    Yes, that wouldn't make sense considering God told them to be fruitful
    and multiply!
    
    -Jack

    RE .65
    
    I like it!
    
                             Patricia

    What...being fruitful and multiplying...or the statement I made!?  :-)
    
    -Jack

    	Perhaps, Jack, it was a cat-out-of-the-bag issue.  Since they
    	figured it out, he may as well let them use it!  Besides, when
    	they were in the Garden of Eden they were going to live forever.
    	Now that they were banished, "fruitful and multiply" was the
    	only way for the continuation of the species.

would this suggest that adam and eve hadn't been
doing "it" up until eating the fruit, and once eaten
the fruit they were expelled from eden and told to
be "fruitfuil and multiply?"


andreas.

    	That's what that line of thinking would suggest, yes.

    I thought that prior to the fall  "It" was a natural healthy thing to
    do and because of the apple, "It" became surrounded with shame.
    
    Jack,
    
    It was the pun I liked.  
    
    
    One interpretation of the Adam and Eve story is that it tells about the
    dawn of Human consciousness.    The evolution from being an instinctual
    animal to being human.  With being human comes the knowledge of good
    and evil and the knowledge of life and death.
    
    I think of it as the birth of humanity and not as the fall of humanity.
    
                                       Patricia

and i always thought "it" was the natural thing to do up until the time when 
the church began making doctrine of jesus' teachings.




andreas.

re .69

Andreas,

The command to be fruitful was given while they
where in the garden of Eden, Genesis 1:28. It
had been God's purpose that they extend the
boundaries of the garden to cover the whole
earth and was to be inhabited by their offspring.
However, they had rebelled and expelled before 
their first child was conceived.

Phil.

    	re .73
    
    	That's the best reason yet to reject the sex-as-the-fruit idea.

    	Patricia,
    
    	I remember once telling you that you were "full of prunes". Did
    	does that mean that you were "fruit-full".   ;-)
    
    	Greetings, Derek.

    	Re: -1
    
    	Sorry, that firs line sould read: "I remember *someone* once
    	telling..."
    
    	Greetings, Derek.

    Derek:
    
    re  -2
    
    
    Only for a short time!
    
                                Patricia