Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    RE: .0  Base note   Richard,
    
                    Do you really want to know?  I believe that the biggest
    problem all of us face today is our inability to say "I'm wrong". 
    Everyone believes that they are right, which means that someone has to
    be wrong but unwilling to admit it.  
    
                    If we could just think about the statement "everyone
    is always right"  and then take a good look around.  *THAT* will humble
    you if nothing else will.
    
    
    Dave

    .0
    
    When Gandhi said "and that he would probably have been a Christian
    were it not for the Christiana he'd known." Christians are not
    perfect, but was Gandhi using this as a reason or an excuess for
    not becoming a Christian? If one is realy interested in accepting
    Christ and trying to follow Christ they would not be looking at
    an other man and following them. What I'm trying to say is if one
    follows man they will be let down for man is not perfect.
    If we follows Christ and put our faith in Him they will never
    be disapointed or let down.
    
    Christian, but not perfect.
    Bill
    

    in re .2
    
    Many Christian missionaries were very racist. They had no understanding
    of native culture and were extremely condescending. It is my
    understanding that this was the type of Christian that so repelled
    Ghandi.
    
    Bonnie

    Rre;3
    
    Yes some people were racist. But even Ghandi's religion had racist.
    Was he interested in following people or Christ? Ghandi was a great
    man, he must of know people are not perfect. Knowing people are not
    perfect, is that a reason for not becoming a Christian? If Ghandi read
    the bible he would had know that people were not perfect and do things
    that are not always right.
    
    Peace,
    Bill

    Bill
    
    the Christian church has a *lot* to answer for in re their racism
    and culturism in third world countries... it is a case of the
    message being destroyed by the messenger.
    
    Think of what the missionaries did in Hawaii to the native peoples
    for example. Insisting that they wear Western dress because their
    sensibilities were offended by the native costume and as a result
    people dying because of giving up native, healthful practices.
    
    Or condoning slavery in America because African blacks were 'savages'.
    
    I can well understand why someone could read the Bible and beieve
    in Christ but totally reject becoming a member of the Christian
    church.
    
    Bonnie

Yes, Bonnie, but Gandhi rejected Christ as well as Christians.  He
clearly indicated that he knew what we required for salvation and
clearly said that he was not willing to do it.  Very sad - but that's
what free choice (that gift that God has given us) is all about.

Much of Gandhi's life is to be admired.  Unfortunately, his choice
to reject God's free gift is not one those admirable characteristics.

Collis

    I don't agree that Gandhi rejected Christ.  He lived his life more in
    accordance with Christ's teachings than most Christians do.  What he
    did reject was a particular doctrine concerning Christ, which he was
    perfectly entitled to do; I certainly don't condemn him for that, nor
    do I consider it "sad" that he did so.

    -- Mike

    -- Mike,
    
    I agree.
    
    If I chose to reject a particular interpretation of Christ's message
    because - in part at least - of the messenger, but I still hold
    Christ to be God's son, who died for my sins and rose from the
    dead, then I'm still a Christian I'm just not a "xxxxxx"ian.
    
    Bonnie

	Gandhi started his work in South Africa. That is a country where
	religion has unfortuanatly and unreasonably be used to justify
	racism. If that was his example of "Christians", and for a very 
	importent part of his life I believe it was, then it's no wonder
	Christians got a bad rep.

	Rejecting much of Christs message is not a big deal to me. If people
	want to that's fine. However, if the part they reject is that Jesus
	is the one and only way to Heaven then I must, if I have love, feel
	sad. Now others I know believe there are other ways to God and to
	heaven. I think they are wrong. I don't condem them for believing what
	they do but it does break my heart.

			Alfred

    RE: .7 & .8
    
                   I believe, and I think Collis does to, that there is a
    requirement to "accept" Christ and what he has done.  If Gandhi did
    not, then in my belief structure, he won't be in heaven and have eternal
    life.  Under that belief....it would be sad if Gandhi was not there and
    I think thats what Collis meant by "sad"....and I agree.
    
    Dave

    Alfred,
    
    Do you remember what Alsan said to the Tarkanian in the "Last Battle"
    about ways to heaven and God?
    
    Bonnie

    If we as human messengers, cannot tell the story of Christ and his
    redemption, then, is Christ unable to reach that person directly?
    Just because a person rejects the external trappings of Christianity
    does not mean that they rejected Christ in their heart. It is not
    for us to judge if they did so or not.
    
    Bonnie

Bonnie,

Gandhi specifically rejected the claim that Jesus Christ died for his
sins.  I wish it wasn't so, but he did.  :-(

Collis

    It doesn't bother me a bit that Gandhi rejected that claim.   :-)
    
    -- Mike

	RE: .11 Bonnie, it's been over 15 years since I read that book. So
	no I don't remember what he said.

	RE: .14 Maybe it doesn't bother you but because I admire and respect
	Gandhi and because I love people. It does bother me.

			Alfred

    I also admire and respect Gandhi, and I also love people.  It doesn't
    follow from those premises alone that one should be bothered by the
    fact that Gandhi was not a Christian.  I don't expect everyone to be a
    Christian, and I don't consider it a tragedy if individuals are not
    Christians, because I believe that there are many paths to God.

    -- Mike

    Aslan (the Christ figure in the book) is talking to the young man
    who had been searching for 'Tash' (who it turns out is a devil
    figure). But young man had always done good, by any standards and
    his image of Tash was really of God. Aslan told him, essentially,
    'he' (meaning Tash) is of such a nature that no good that is
    done in his name is accepted by him or truely by or for him, but
    is really done for Aslan (Christ) while in return Aslan says
    any evil done in my name is note accepted by me, or done for me
    but is really done for Tash.
    
    This book was written btw by C.S.Lewis a major 20th century
    Chrisian writer.
    
    Bonnie

    I admire Gandhi, but he did have some of his own flaws.
    
    Gandhi  believed in the caste system of his time. He also had a
    practice of sleeping naked with woman other than his wife, to test
    his strength  against lustful temptation. He never reported whether
    he was successful or not.-:)

    So should we judge Hinduism by the same standard that He judged
    Christianity.

    BTW Bonnie, your comment on Christian approval of slavery ? It was also
    Christianity that fought to free the slaves. This is rarely mentioned 
    when the "Christian approval" line is used.


    Peace
    Jim

    Jim
    
    The Christians that fought against slavery, were not the main stream
    churches at first. At first it was the result of individual acts
    of conscience, and one of those 'odd ball' sects the Quakers (Hi
    Mike and E).
    
    So Christians did fight and have continued to fight against all
    sorts of evils in the world. In so far as I am worthy to be
    called a Christian and a fighter against evil, I'm proud to be
    considered a minor member of that great army.
    
    The 'official' church line, has, however, not always been on the
    'side of the angels' IMHO.
    
    Bonnie

| Gandhi started his work in South Africa. That is a country where
| religion has unfortuanatly and unreasonably be used to justify
| racism. If that was his example of "Christians", and for a very
| importent part of his life I believe it was, then it's no wonder
| Christians got a bad rep.

	You don't need to go to Africa to find racism in religion. We could
start with our own contry with how the KKK view the Bible. There are many
people that are still racist and consider themselves Christians.

Glen

| I also admire and respect Gandhi, and I also love people.  It doesn't
| follow from those premises alone that one should be bothered by the
| fact that Gandhi was not a Christian.  I don't expect everyone to be a
| Christian, and I don't consider it a tragedy if individuals are not
| Christians, because I believe that there are many paths to God.

	Mike, very nicely put! :-)


Glen

| BTW Bonnie, your comment on Christian approval of slavery ? It was also
| Christianity that fought to free the slaves. This is rarely mentioned
| when the "Christian approval" line is used.

	As Bonnie mentioned, it wasn't the mainstream Christians who started
it. In fact, has it ever been the mainstream Christians who tried to change
what some felt the Bible was saying? (ie Spanish inquisition, women being 2nd
class citizens, etc...)

	I wonder how many other things that the mainstream Christians feel are
correct now, will actually be changed?


Glen

    It's true that things have been done in the name of Christanity 
    but that does not mean that they where Christian. There is a
    differance between those who claim to be and realy are. I think it
    needs to be pointed out here that it was just not some Christians who
    did things that were not right, but every nation in the world has,
    with no exception. For all have sined and fallen short of the glory
    of God. Sorry I can't remenber the verse number.
    
    Christ the light and only path.
    Peace,
    Bill  

    RE Bonnie and Glenn,
    			if I recall the recent PBS series on the Civil War,
    they quoted several ministers who spoke out against slavery, which help
    trigger the abolitionist movement. Also, I seem to recall an encyclical
    written by Pope Pius XI condemning slavery. I'm not exactly sure of the 
    date however. Either way, the mainstream churches had a major impact on
    ending slavery. OH yeah, the Catholic Church just beautified a former slave
    of that time.(Thrudeau or something like that ) I seem to recall when
    reading about him, that the Church had a big part in helping runaway slaves.
    BTW,  beatification is the first step in canonizing a person
    to the level of Saint.

     So the point I'm making here is that it is not a fair judgment to say that
     Christianity mainstream or other, approved slavery.

     Peace
    Jim

I do know that in England, it was a Christian with the support of the
Church of England that outlawed the slave trade.

I do know the exact role of churches in America (other than being aware
that there were churches and Christians on both sides).

| if I recall the recent PBS series on the Civil War,
| they quoted several ministers who spoke out against slavery, which help
| trigger the abolitionist movement. Also, I seem to recall an encyclical
| written by Pope Pius XI condemning slavery. I'm not exactly sure of the
| date however. Either way, the mainstream churches had a major impact on
| ending slavery. 

	The northern churches, right? Aren't the southern churches part of the
christian make-up in the world? Also, think around the time we started
importing slaves, and when it was stopped. A lot of years went by where no one
did anything. If people started to realize that they were wrong with slavery,
that's great. Then they did something about it. But let us not forget the years
that went by.....

	You have talked about slavery, what about the burning of whitches, the
Spanish Inquisitions and the treating women as 2nd class citizens? How many
years went by before anyone decided that what was being done is actually wrong?

	Like I said, once they figured out it was wrong, then they made the
changes that were needed. But up until that point, wouldn't you say that the
majority of christians (regardless of the level in the church they held) went 
along with this?

	Again, who knows what other areas people have/are or will find that
were wrongly interpretated in the future? 



Glen

    Glenn,
    	you've seem to have missed something here. Bonnie brought up a point
    that it  was Christianity that approved slavery, I merely pointed
    out that it was also Christianity that fought for it's abolition.

    I don't live in a world  wearing rose colored glasses! I know the evils
    that Christians have done in the name of Christ, but I also know that there
    were many Christian people including their religions, that did good.
    These alomost never get mentioned when someone is in the finger
    pointing mode.
 
    Regardless of the evils Christians have commited, it doesn't change
    the message of Jesus Christ. 
    
    Peace
    Jim

    Richard,
    
    
    My point was essentially the same as Glenn's, and I also am in
    agreement with you.
    
    Bonnie

    
    
    I like to think that someday peace and kindness and honor and truth
    and brother or sister and friend and promise and love and joy 
    would not be mere words, but our very breath.
    
    
    
    -mark
    
    

Note 257.13

>Gandhi specifically rejected the claim that Jesus Christ died for his
>sins.  I wish it wasn't so, but he did.  :-(

Collis,

	To me, Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of all humankind is
all too frequently exhalted as Christ's exclusive purpose and mission in
the world.

Peace,
Richard

    RE:-1 
    Richard,
          without Good-Friday there would be no Easter.
     The good news is that we sinners have an Easter.


    Peace
    Jim

    Re: .31
    
    Jim,
    
    	Yes....and more.  Much more.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    Re: .29
    
    Amen.  Me, too.
    
    Richard

| you've seem to have missed something here. Bonnie brought up a point
| that it  was Christianity that approved slavery, I merely pointed
| out that it was also Christianity that fought for it's abolition.

	I agreed with that 100%. What I was mealy pointing out though is that
Christians have wrongly used the Bible to persicute others. Sure, they
recognized their mistakes, but it doesn't keep them from still happening. It
happened with slavery, the Spanish Inquistions, treating of women as 2nd class
citizens. All which in time were found to be wrong. They were found to be wrong
by a small majority first, and eventually the majority saw it. But not until
many years had passed. This next part is just *my* opinion, but I feel that in
time Christians will also find that what some have been doing, how some have
been treating lesbigays is wrong. Look at the whole picture. Just like all of
the other things Christians have done, a small majority has risen and are
starting to question the aspects of homosexuality and the church. Again, this
is just my opinion, and now back to the topic at hand.

| I don't live in a world  wearing rose colored glasses! I know the evils
| that Christians have done in the name of Christ, but I also know that there
| were many Christian people including their religions, that did good.
| These alomost never get mentioned when someone is in the finger
| pointing mode.

	I believe they call it politics? ;-) Try to remember something. I have
been told over and over again about how wonderful the christians are in this
world (which some really are! :), how so and so did this good deed and so and
so did that. What you never hear all that often are the things that Christians
have done to hurt others. This is something that I feel should be brought up
and taught. Why? So history doesn't repeat itself. I can remember that it
wasn't until last year that there were any real mention of anything the
Christians have done in the past. I was always told of the good, not the bad.
This is where I feel that blinders can be found. You have built quite a name
for yourselves. If a report on the news states how someone is a Christian
person people's first impression is that they are always good. This isn't
always the case. If it were said that this Christian person did wrong, you
would instantly pray for God to be with them. What if the person who did the
same crime weren't Christian? Would you still ask God to be with them? I know I
do. Can you? I'm not saying one should just stick with the negatives, but
they shouldn't gloss over them or sugar coat them either. If we are to truely
learn from our mistakes, then we have to first hear about them. Yes, Christians
helped end the misery that they started for many different subjects, but let's
learn from this and not hide the bad things under the carpet because they will
at times make us look bad, or even human.

| Regardless of the evils Christians have commited, it doesn't change
| the message of Jesus Christ.

	From the evils that Christians have committed, while these evils were
going on anyway, yes, the message of Jesus Christ was changed. A wrong message
was given out to the masses. A human interpretation with all of the human
predjudges. This is the message that got out to everyone. The sad part is at
the time they (the people) thought it was the correct view to have. Lucky for
everyone involved that Christ's REAL message ultimatly won out. :-)



Glen

    Glen, I don't think Christians are tying to hide any wrong doing that
    theve done, for no one is perfect. We should always try and learn form
    our mistakes and look to Christ. But in this file you all most always
    see a finger pointing at Christians. Who is being edified here by
    pointing fingers. It sure is not God. As for woman being second class
    not in my church thats for sure nor do I know of any Christian woman
    who have been treaded that way let alone feels that way.
    
    Again I say it was not always Christians who did anything wrong the
    world is full of people who have done things that are were wrong.
    
    The time to stop pointing fingers is now and look to God and Christ for
    direction. God is not edified when people point fingers at each other.
    
    Christ is the light of the world and our way of salvation, may everyone
    here get to know Him in a special way.
    
    Christ is like a cool breze, eternal.
    
    Peace,
    Bill
    

    RE: .17 After I read that note I remembered the exchange. It was
    in fact one of the really disquieting things about the book for
    me. I'm still not sure quite why.

    In any case even if that's the way God feels, which would be nice,
    I don't believe that good works are themselves a sufficient way to
    God and to heaven. John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way,
    the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
    The context is one in which Jesus is explaining His preparation of
    heaven and of the plan for His followers to follow.


    		Alfred

| Glen, I don't think Christians are tying to hide any wrong doing that
| theve done, for no one is perfect. We should always try and learn form
| our mistakes and look to Christ. But in this file you all most always
| see a finger pointing at Christians. 

	In the GOLF::CHRISTIAN notefile you would see them talk about the
sinners of the world. Past and present. You would never see a Christian
included with those sinners. That could be why so many people point the fingers
at the Christians as they never do. It's almost like they don't acknowledge the
things they have done wrong in the past. But they will be the first ones to
stand up and tell you what so and so did in the past or what they are doing in
the present is wrong. You see, when I talk to a lot of people who aren't
Christians, and we either see one coming that they know, or just one off the
street, or if we're just talking about them, the same thing comes up. Just in
the people that I have talked to in my life, both straight and gay, many
various degrees of religion and some without they all feel that someone who is
deeply into God will or has come up to them and given them the same gloom story
at how they will go to hell if they don't repent and in Christ you will find
the way, and Christianity will show you the way. Then they go off and tell of a
wonderful world that the christians have helped keep in tact as they are
closest to God. In other words, some chirstians feel that they are ABOVE others
who aren't saved. This is one reason why people point fingers at Christians.
Another is the Christians love to bring up other peoples pasts, but not their
own.

| Who is being edified here by
| pointing fingers. It sure is not God. 

	Who is being edified? We humans for one. We are being enlightened to
the fact that we are human, regardless of whether we're christians or not. That
we can make mistakes and we should learn from those mistakes. Once we learn
from these mistakes, then we get back on track with God, who, at this point, is
being edified.

| As for woman being second class
| not in my church thats for sure nor do I know of any Christian woman
| who have been treaded that way let alone feels that way.

	Talking past tense here. 

| Again I say it was not always Christians who did anything wrong the
| world is full of people who have done things that are were wrong.

	I agree. And when others do stuff wrong, the christians are usually
there reminding people of it. But when it's in their own backyard, it's hush
hush! Think about it. How many comedies have done skits involving a Christian 
mother using guilt to get the child to do their will? They have to get this 
stuff from somewhere. 

	One thing I like to say is that what I have said doesn't go for ALL
Christians. there are some who don't fit this mode. 


Glen

    Bill,
    
    in re women, the church for thousands of years made women second
    class citizens, it is only *very* recently that they've been
    allowed true equality with men within the church, many churches
    still do not accept women ministers even today.
    
    Bonnie

    RE:37
    Gee Glenn, I think your doing a great job judging people here
    yourself.

    Even though I'm on the out's with the Golf conference right now, 
    I don't feel they deserve the chastisement your giving them. 
    There are a lot of very GOOD people in that conference, and I think
    your sweep of the paint brush is unjust.

    Peace
    Jim

| RE:37
| Gee Glenn, I think your doing a great job judging people here
| yourself.

	Hmmm.... you make a good point Jim. A REAL good point. I guess that's 
just what I was doing and didn't even realize it. I apoligize. done. I guess 
this is one of those things where we can learn from our mistakes. How we 
shouldn't judge others, regardless of who they are. White, black, male, female, 
straight or lesbigay, we're all the same and should be treated as so, wouldn't 
you agree?

| Even though I'm on the out's with the Golf conference right now,
| I don't feel they deserve the chastisement your giving them.
| There are a lot of very GOOD people in that conference, and I think
| your sweep of the paint brush is unjust.

	Jim, that's why my last line in my note said that not ALL people fall
into the catagorys that I had listed. There are several people who fit into
either some or all of what I said and there were several people in that
notesfile that were really great people. I had hoped that my last disclaimer
would have prevented people from thinking what you did. I'm sorry it didn't.


Glen

Re:  257.37

  >In the GOLF::CHRISTIAN notefile you would see them talk about the
  >sinners of the world. Past and present. You would never see a Christian
  >included with those sinners.

I'm truly surprised to hear you say this, Glen.  Particularly right
after a topic is started to confess a sin with lust - and many join
in admitting their own sin.  My personal experience (and Scriptural
understanding) is that the more devoted to God the Christian is, the more 
that person is aware of his/her sin.  

Collis

Re:  .30

Richard,

I agree with you that Jesus did much more than simply die for our
sins.  It's just that this one act is so important, that at times
everything else pales in comparison.  (If Jesus never died for our
sins, there would be no salvation.  However, if Jesus never healed
a leper or taught the Word or gave us an example to follow but *did*
die for our sins, there would be salvation.)

Collis

	Funny.  When I wrote .0 I really didn't intend this note to deal
so much with Gandhi.

	To me, one of the areas where Christians need strengthening is
in the area of integrity:

	The Christian faith seems to be integrated into our lives only to
the degree that we are materially and socially comfortable.  Some Christians
rationalize away the shallowness of their faith by indicating that theirs
is a more "balanced" approach.  Others say it is not necessary to live
Christ's commandments to any extreme, that only if God lays it on our hearts
to do so is it required.  Others think that as long as you're saved that
that's all that really matters.

	Most Christians seldom question the morality of their occupations
or other sources of income.

	Most Christians seldom question the morality of land ownership.

	Most Christians sweep militarism, materialism, and other social
ills under the carpet.

	Most Christians are more into giving lip service than Christian
service.

Peace,
Richard

re.42

Hi Collis

Hope that you dont mind me commenting, but I thought that the following 
was worth mentioning. 

;I agree with you that Jesus did much more than simply die for our
;sins.  It's just that this one act is so important, that at times
;everything else pales in comparison.

I would agree with you, apart from the santification of God's name.
The sanctifying of God's name is more important than the redemption
of imperfect mankind. 

Ezekiel 38:23 NWT reads "I shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself
and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to 
know that I am Jehovah." God's name will be cleansed of all reproach; it
will be treated as holy and deserving of respect, and all who live will be
persons who willingly uphold Jehovah's sovereignty, delighting to do his will. 
Upon such sanctification of God's name the peace and well-being of all the 
universe depend.

The sanctification of God's name is closely associated with the coming of his 
Kingdom, Matthew 6:9,10.

Phil.

Phil,

Sounds reasonable to me.

Collis

Another area where Christians could stand improvement is in the area of
credibility.

Jesus stated that a tree can be judged by the fruit it bears, and so it
is with people.  Therefore, as Christ's followers, we are the fruit-producing
branches of the vine, which is Christ. (John 15.1-10)  It is reasonable to
believe that if the branches of Christianity produce less than desirable
fruit (sour grapes?) then something is less than right in the connection
with the vine.

Some who insist they are among the saved will say, "Pay no attention to the
fruit!  Keep your eye on the vine.  The fruit will always be less than
perfect.  The fruit will always disappoint you.  But, the vine will never
disappoint you."

Certainly, to some degree, this is true.  At the same time, this way of
thinking has become just another poor excuse, just another rationalization,
just another way to explain away problematic symptoms, rather than dealing
with them.

Peace,
Richard

Richard,

Well said.