Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    
    
    
 Re.23
    
 Dave:
       
       That's a pretty straight forward question and I think I'd
    have to be reading a lot into it to think that it was intended
    to be some kind of put down.
       As you have might have figured out by now I am a Zen Buddhist.
    I have no idea what knowledge you may have about Zen so I'll keep
    this very basic. If you want more information about something I'll
    try to give you as good an explanation as I can. 
       I am somewhat loath to use the term personal beliefs because 
    the whole idea of Zen is to get beyond personal beliefs, but 
    allowing for the limitations of this means of communication it
    will have to do.
       The basic principle of Zen is that it is a transmission of the
    Buddha's teachings that is outside of scripture ( Buddhist Scripture
    that is) and beyond words and abstract concepts. This makes it a bit
    difficult to explain to someone as you might well guess.
       This is not to say that there is no Scripture or there are no
    teachings, but simply that such things have no special place in Zen.
       In Zen, as in all forms of Buddhism, practice takes priority over
    theory. In particular "zazen" or sitting meditation is great importance
    in the practice of Zen. To practice all you have to do is just sit.
    This is actually much harder than it sounds. It is very difficult to
    sit and not think. Zazen must be performed with no goal in mind. It
    should not be viewed as a means to an end.
        So, to answer your question may beliefs are very much based on 
    the result of just sitting. I really don't think it would be true to
    say that it is personal revelation to use one of your choices. Perhaps
    empirical knowledge might be a better description to use.
        They are also a result of what I have read. This would include
    books about Zen, Christianity including the Bible, Philosophy, History,
    Poetry, Science and.... well I think you get the idea.
         What I believe is a composite of wide range of experience and
    reading. Is this sort of what you had in mind for a answer to your
    question ? If not let me know and I'll give it another try or 
    if have any other questions let me know and I'll see what I can do
    to answer them for you.




                                                            Mike
     
    

Since the topic was raised, I'll note that I became a Christian because
I believed the Jesus was indeed God's Son and did rise from the dead - 
essentially because I thought it was true.

Still seeking truth,

Collis

Hi Dave,

Well, the short answer is...4 sources

		Bible
 		 Experience
		  Revelation
		   Tradition

Perhaps a little expansion is in order.  When I read the Bible, I do it 
prayerfully, usually asking what it says and how it applies to me.  I view the 
Bible as the collected work of many people who loved God, and who in that way
were called to share that love. (Not unsimilar to how anybody, anywhere, might 
share of their personal relationship with God, even in a notesfile.-)

I find quite a library in the Bible, there are sections of history, poetry, 
law, radical protest, mythology, folk wisdom, personal correspondence,
eyewitness accounts, and mystical experiences.  Permeating everything,
however, is an awareness of God's presence. 

Experience, well, I have experienced many things in my life.  Some of them 
quite powerful and dramatic, others very quiet and serene, yet still powerful.
As I search for God's presence in my life, I find God's revealing work all 
about me.  So revelation ties in with experience, uniting what might be a 
collection of random incidents into a whole that transcends the mundane.

Tradition I view as sort of the combined experience and revelation of the 
parade of saints that has gone before me.  I worship in the Episcopal church, 
and I find it rich with traditions.  Some I find more useful than others, and 
as they are "second hand", I ask of them the same questions I ask of the 
Bible, "what does it say to me?  in what way does it apply?"

The experiences of saint Francis, or saint Paul, or saint Dave by necessity 
will have different meaning to me, simply because I am not those people, with 
their lifetimes of experience.  Yet they certainly ARE valid experiences, and 
I am richer for having them shared with me.

So all these four sources are inextricably entwined, the Bible is the shared,
revealed experience of people growing out of their tradition.  My experiences 
are certainly molded by the Bible, which helps me sort out my understanding of 
events, and the traditions of believers who have gone before me, but
ultimately, God encompasses them all. 

Hope this helps!

Peace,

Jim

    RE: .26, Jim:
    
>		Bible
> 		 Experience
>		  Revelation
>		   Tradition
    
    Three of your four are the same as United Methodism's four-fold test of
    truth.  Apparently we put Scripture and Revelation together and add
    Reason.
    
    Nancy
    

Note 190.23         Through the eyes of non-Christians (SRO)            23 of 27
DPDMAI::DAWSON "A Different Light"                   11 lines  17-APR-1991 11:54
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    RE: .20,21,22     Mike, Jim, Mike
    
    
                 I would be interested about where you get infomation about
    your different beliefs....ie....the bible or maybe some other book or 
    even personal revelation.  I'm not trying to"put" anyone down...I
    really am interested.
    
    
    
    DAve

    215.1 through 215.5 were originally 190.23 through 190.27.
    
    Richard Jones-Christie
    Co-Moderator/CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE

I would say that my faith is centered in my direct encounter with the
Living Christ through the Holy Spirit.  One might call this either
revelation or experience.

Peace,
Richard

Hi Nancy,

Actually, I think the official Episcopal 4-fold are the same as United 
Methodist's.  Yeah, Reason sure rings a bell.  I'd still say, though, that 
at least for me, they are so intertwined that, would you believe that in order 
to make sense of Experience and Revelation, you must use Reason?  Yeah, that's 
the ticket!  Four out of four!

As Lilly Tomlin said, "My mind get more and more like Teflon� every day, 
			nothing sticks to it..."

Thanks!

Jim

I just noticed this string's been moved.  (I feel like Alice in Wonderland, 
running as fast as I can just to keep still!)

So, I think I'd say the Foundation and Essence of my faith is NOT the Bible,
NOT Revelation, or Reason, NOT Experience or Tradition, but the Love of
Christ. 

BERT helps me grow in my knowledge, understanding, and awareness of that Love 
in my life and in the world.

Peace,

Jim

>I just noticed this string's been moved.  (I feel like Alice in Wonderland, 
>running as fast as I can just to keep still!)
    
    Ain't it the truth?  I'd yank Richard's chain about how he does this to
    us all the time -- but I never know what string I'm in anyhow!!  It's
    just whatever Next Unseen produces, followed by all the remaining notes
    in that string...
    
    Mods *do* make life interesting, don't they?  ;']
    
    Nancy

Hi Nancy,

>    Mods *do* make life interesting, don't they?  ;']
    
Yup, then again, we probably make it interesting for them, too!  .-)

pant, pant, huff & puff....

Jim

    Re: .9, .10, .11
    
    	Okay, okay.  I can take a hint.  I will try not to be so quick
    to move a note in the future. ;-}
    
    Richard Jones-Christie
    Co-moderator/CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE

    Aw, cmon, Richard -- you know that we would do more than mild teasing if
    it *really* bothered us!!  (Have you ever known us to be "meek and
    mild" when it comes to noting???)
    ;}

    My own theological influences include the following:

    1) My Christian upbringing.  Though I have grown in my spiritual
    understanding since that time, and have moved beyond the fundamentalism
    of my youth, my religious outlook has inevitably been molded by
    Christianity, and it will always be a part of me.  That is why my
    Universalist leanings are tempered by the fact that I am more personally
    drawn to Christianity than other faiths, even though I respect and value
    what other faiths bring to other individuals.
    
    2) The Sermon on the Mount.  The ethical teachings of Jesus,
    particularly his pacifism, have bene a strong influence on my own
    beliefs.

    3) Science.  I believe that religion is not incompatible with science
    and reason.  I thus am very interested in the writings of John
    Polkinghorne and Ian Barbour, who have worked at integrating the
    metaphysical implications of the "New Physics" with Christianity.  I am
    intrigued by the ways in which God works through creation.  Such
    concepts as biological evolution, or the Big Bang in cosmology, may not
    necessarily have direct theological implications, but they do contribute
    to an overall metaphysics.

    4) Process Theology.  I am very much interested in the process thought
    of Alfred North Whitehead, Charles Hartshorne, David Ray Griffin, and
    John Cobb.  When I discovered process theology, I found that it resolved
    a lot of questions in my own mind about such issues as Omnipotence and
    the nature of God's relationship to the world.

    5) Theologies of pluralism.  In particular, John Hick has been a major
    influence.  It is here that I have learned to respect other religious
    faiths.

    6) Unitarian Universalism.  It was through the UU church that I
    rediscovered religion after years of atheism; it was through the UU
    faith that I acquired an interest in religion as a process rather than a
    dogma, and through it I also learned that fundamentalism was not the
    sum total of what Christianity has to offer.
    
    6) Quakerism.  This includes the Quaker testimonies of peace,
    simplicity, and equality, and the Quaker belief in that of God in
    everyone.  I also found the Quaker manner of worship allowed me to
    discover my mystical side.  This is something that I am still in the
    process of grappling with.
    
    -- Mike