Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Thank you, Richard, for describing the Quaker viewpoint on Baptism
    better than I was able to do.  What I should have said was that Quakers
    do not carry out any ritual or sacrament of baptism involving water.

    -- Mike

    When my father does a baptism he says something like. "Baptism is
    and outward sign of an internal action." I don't remember if it's
    part of the Methodist ritual or not but it's how I look at it. We
    are baptized to show or affirm what we have decided in ourselves.

    As such I don't see it as necessary mearly helpful, sometimes, to
    our witness.

    			Alfred

    Baptism (and any sacrament) is "an outward, visible sign of an
    inward, invisible grace."  (Don't know where that's said, but in
    some catechetical teaching.)

    
    Well, it is true that Jesus never baptised anyone, but that does not
    negate the fact that Jesus himself was baptised.  Apparently God didn't
    want him to do baptism's, that was John's niche and calling. 
    Nevertheless, what did Jesus say why he was baptised.
    
    Who authorized ANY one to change that?  
    
    Playtoe

    RE: 5
    
    Excuse me, I know that the question "Who authorized..." will incite
    debate, because some don't believe the bible is the Word of God, and
    feel they can interpret or delete or add to God's Word as they will,
    with no problem...but for those who are Christians and Bible believers
    in the Word of God, this is something to grapple with.
    
    Playtoe

    Not to refute what Mike has said elsewhere, but my understanding
    of the Society of Friends is that baptism is an inward sacramental
    experience rather than simply a ceremonial application of water.
    
    You will notice that nowhere in the gospels does Jesus baptize
    anyone.  In fact, in the gospel of John, the author goes out of
    his way to say that Jesus baptized no one.  In that same gospel
    John the Baptist proclaims that he (John) baptizes with water, but
    the one who comes after him baptizes with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
                                                  ===========          ====
    Peace,
    Richard

    RE: all
                 Interesting note and one that can sometimes confuse
    Christians. Water cannot save!  The sacrement of baptism cannot save!
    We Christians follow Jesus into Baptism because Jesus is the ONE that
    we wish to emulate.  It is, in our belief, an act of faith.  I believe
    that we are to be obedient to God's command, that he wants me to follow 
    Jesus and use his life as an example for me.
    
    
    Dave
    

    RE: Baptism
    
    Another thing is this.  Baptism is not something to really be debating
    about, whether we should or shouldn't do it.  I think we need all the
    ways we can find to get into heaven, because it sho ain't easy.
    
    My brother is a Muslim.  The Muslim doesn't get baptised either.  I
    question them.  If you read the Quran it speaks of Jesus as a prophet,
    but the Muslim says they obey the prophets of God.  I ask them "Why
    then don't you baptise, as Jesus the prophet asks us?"  
    
    One of the causes of misinterpretation of scripture is that the Bible
    doesn't really elaborate the purpose of the various rituals, except for
    the Lord's Supper.  Baptism, circumcision, laying on of hands, are all
    requested of us, but not explained as to why we should do them.  Jesus
    says, "because it fulfills all righteousness," how does it do that? 
    What has "being born of WATER and spirit" mean?
    
    If you knew what the "water" represents you'd have no problem
    understanding the need to perform the ritual of baptism or circumcision
    or the Lord's Supper, or other things.  But you couldn't ever know this
    by reading the bible because it's not explained in there.
    
    What happens to people that have lived a "good" life and did not become
    baptized?" this question seems to be answered in the matter of what
    becomes of the Gentiles, who know not God, but do by nature the things
    of God."  Romans answers this, as well as Revelations.
    
    Why leave this easy thing out of your Christian sacrifice?  Is it such
    a hard thing to do to get baptised?  For what reason would one not want
    to be baptised as Jesus was and asks?  
    
    I'm not preaching just asking....
    
    Playtoe

    I have no particular objection to baptism with water.  I believe
    one may experience salvation without the ritual, however.  One may
    be immersed (baptized) with the Holy Spirit and spiritual fire.
    
    Some may be surprised to learn, as I was, that in Roman Catholicism,
    a priest is not required to be present in order to perform a church-
    recognized baptism.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    
    	When I had the pleasure of Baptizing 2 of my sons I let them
    know that Baptism is NOT salvation.  Neither is it just a ritual.
    It is identifying with His death and resurrection.  I have seen
    over & over again and especially in my youngest son a change after
    they were baptized.  I can't explain it but I have seen it.
    
    	_ed-

    Re:  Baptism
    
    (Taken from III Hermas, Similitude IX, verses 150-155)
    
    	"And I said, Sir, shew me this farther.  He answered, What dost thou
    ask?  Why did these stones come out of the deep, and were placed into
    the building of this tower seeing that they long ago carried those holy
    spirits (virtues).
    	It was necessary, said he, for them to ascend by water, that they
    might be at rest.  For they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom
    of God, but laying aside the mortality of their former life.
    	They therefore being dead, were nevertheless sealed with the seal
    of the Son of God, and so entered into the kingdom of God.
    	For before a man receives the name of the Son of God, he is
    ordained unto death, but when he receives that seal, he is freed from
    death, and assigned unto life.
    	Now that seal is the water of baptism, into which men go down under
    the obligation unto death, but come up appointed unto life.
    	Wherefore to those also was this seal preached, and they made use
    of it, that they might enter the kingdom of God."
    
    This passage contains several points about Baptism:
    
    1.	By it we enter into the REST, God has promised us.  I submit that
    this is because we now become of the body of Christ, and receive the
    Grace by which we are saved, we become blameless and totally submitted
    to God/Christ as the head of our lives, thus we find rest from the
    struggles of this world.
    
    2)	By it we "lay aside the mortality of our former lives", which is to
    say that we are no longer "carnally" minded after baptism, but take on
    the new purpose and life of Christ, the Son of God.
    
    3)	By it we receive the "seal" of Christ.  In other words, we have
    joined Christ's club, or those who seek heaven through Christ.
    
    4)	By receiving the "seal" we are in position to receive the "name" of
    the Son of God, and are freed from death and assigned unto life.
    
    5)	By it we meet the obligation that all men have to die, and will
    therefore never see the carnal/physical death, but will live through it
    and have life always.  The carnal/physical/fleshly life we had formerly
    is done away with in baptism.
    
    6)	By it we have a useful tool by which we may enter into the kingdom
    of God.
    
    Some may argue that these books aren't "canonical", but what does that
    mean in the light of this sort of knowledge?  Is it to say that this is
    untruthful knowledge, not the way it is?  Surely there seems to be some
    truth to these verses, as it does not contradict the Bible.
    
    I am not preaching, but like an attorney presenting a case for Baptism.
    
    Playtoe, In the Spirit of Truth

    Re: .11
    
    Playtoe....Can you shed some light on these books? Background,etc.
    
    I am not familar with them at all.
    
    Marc H.

    Re: 12
    
    The Lost Books of the Bible, are a collection of writings alledgedly
    written about the time of Christ, and afterwards.  I believe this book
    is fairly popular and available.  The reader is left to his own faith
    in reading these works, to determine their value.
    
    I have personally found great value in them.
    
    Playtoe

    RE: .13   Playtoe
    
    
                      Does this book also include the so-called "Black
    Gospels?
    
    Dave

    Re: 14
    
    Hummmm...I hadn't heard of the "Black Gospels"...but still I don't
    think this is the book.  Perhaps you're speaking of the "Other Bible",
    which contains the Nag Hamadi manuscripts which includes several
    gospels.
    
    Playtoe

    Don't do much but read-only, so I decided to go for it!  Not really
    bashful either!  Anyway, I am proud to tell anyone out there my two
    sons got baptised this Sunday in Colorado Springs.  Very moving and
    exciting.  Took pictures, and no drownings.  My kids are unbelievable.
    
    Later,
    
    Glenn

    Glenn .16,
    
    	Tell about being "saved in a Jeep on I-25!"  And what ages are your
    sons?
    
    	My son, Ricky, was baptized a couple years ago on New Year's Day.
    Sure makes it easy to remember the date. ;-)
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    'Since I entered Miss Bond's school with my chum, Peggie White, I had
    no sense of strangeness because I was the only Quaker among pupils. 
    Indeed, I doubt whether I was ever conscious of that fact.  I was well
    used to Episcopalians and the Episcopal service, since I often went to
    evensong with Peggie at the parish church in our neighborhood.  I
    enjoyed the singing and the beautiful prayers and collects, some of
    which I learned by heart through constantly repeating them, but the
    service never moved me as did the silence and the simplicity of our
    meeting.  After I had made friends with other girls at school, I
    sometimes went with them to the churches they attended.  I even saw the
    sister of one baptized by immersion inside a hideous dark church.  A
    tank of artificially heated water struck me as a ridiculous substitute
    for the River Jordan and I felt that it was far more in accord with the
    Gospels to omit the outward symbolism of baptism, as Quakers did.  To
    my friend however I made no such comment and the internal sense of
    superiority I surely had was perhaps somewhat mitigated by being
    referred to my parents.

    'Once I did experience a moment of fierce religious antagonism.  I was
    walking peacefully home with a girl whose parents happened to be
    zealous high-church Episcopalians.  Our books under our arms and our
    hair hanging down our backs in near braids, we chattered and laughed as
    we walked, mulling over school gossip.  Suddenly changing the subject,
    Edith broke out:

    '"My mother says no one can go to heaven without being baptized. 
    Everyone who hasn't been baptized goes straight to hell when she
    dies."

    'Edith's tone was triumphant.  It excited in me a violent upsurge of
    anger.  So that was what Edith had been thinking all the time!  How
    about my mother?  Had Edith's mother been talking about my mother?  Was
    she to go to hell?  These questions went through my mind like a flash
    of lightning.  I stopped short where I was on the pavement to confront
    Edith, but instantly the calm, beautiful face of my mother rose up
    before me.  My mother in hell!  Impossible!  Without deigning to answer
    Edith by a single word I walked on again, my head in the air.  With
    angry eyes I scrutinized her pretty round face, her dark hair, the tiny
    pearls in her ears.

    '"How silly Edith looks," I thought to myself, "with holes burned
    through her ear lobes to stick pearls in!  How terribly silly!"'

    	- Helen Thomas Flexner, from her book "A Quaker Childhood"

I've been in touch with former C-P member Ron Francey, now a pastor of a
UCC congregation in Wisconsin.  Ron introduced the following topic on
ECUnet --

Ron:
>>I recently added a new note thread that has to do with a recent request we
>>received to "do" an infant baptism privately.  As this is against our own
>>and our denominational understanding of an infant baptism, we have been
>>wrestling with this and have received many, many replies that have kept
>>focused on the actual topic.  The thread has also helped others see how the
>>medium can be used for such discussions.

Richard:
>Interesting.  You know, I wonder if the parent(s) would consider "doing"
>the infant baptism with you two present as witnesses and guests.  If the
>UCC is like most other churches, clergy is not required for baptism.
>Communion is a whole 'nuther matter. ;-}

Ron:
We finally came to agreement to "do" the baptaism privately on a Saturday
or Sunday afternoon with the full church councel present and participating
and with the whole congregation invited (we hope many come!!!)  In our
denomination clergy IS required to officiate at a baptism as this is one of
the two sacraments we practice.  On exceptional cases baptism can be
accomplished via non-ordained, but ususally only under weird situations.

Richard:
> Mind if I pose this question to the folks in C-P?

Ron:
Please do and give our friends lots of greetings.

Please feel free to communicate any of this to C-P, including my EcuNet
email address:

nm%decpa::"[email protected]"

    Shalom,
    
    Ron and Dot 

    Revs. Ron and Dot Francey; Community UCC/Peace UCC in Heartland of WI