Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

	The Pikes Peak Justice and Peace Commission works to promote social
justice and non-violence.

	Within the last year the Commission Board revised the charter to
include the statement that the work of the Commission is grounded in the
principles of Jesus Christ, and that the Commission exists "to facilitate
growth toward justice and peace in ourselves and in our sisters and brothers
of the Pikes Peak community by providing alternate sources of information,
facilitating formative experiences, and encouraging prophetic witness."

	The Commission is constantly seeking dedicated Christians and
others to participate in any of the Commission's efforts and programs.

	I am especially enthusiastic about the Commission's "Arts for Peace"
program which has produced the "First Strike Follies," and is currently in
production of "War, Women & Song," a madcap musical revue of best-loved
maladies.

Peace,
Richard

>program which has produced the "First Strike Follies," and is currently in
>production of "War, Women & Song," a madcap musical revue of best-loved
>maladies.
    
    "Best-loved maladies?"  Like small pox and stuff?

    Re: .2  I forgot the ;-).  It's riotously satirical stuff.
    
    Richard

During the past two days throughout the world:

2,800 children died from whooping cough
8,000 children died from measles
4,300 children died from tetanus
5,500 children died from malaria
22,000 children died from diarrhea
12,000 children died from pnuemonia

This information is overwhelming and deeply disturbing, is it not?

Richard

    ...and 1 out 8 children in the US is hungry

Please, think me not boastful.  The following is simply to encourage ideas for
Christian service.  As you see, I am cross-posting it from another conference.
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In the past 5 years I've served as:

o  Chaplain at a local hospital.  Check with the pastoral care department
   of a nearby hospital, if interested.  Some hospitals even offer courses
   in CPE (Clincal Pastoral Education).  Some won't allow anyone but trained
   clergy to become a part of their pastoral care program.  Such is the case
   with the local jail chaplaincy program.

o  Chair of the Board of the Pikes Peak Justice and Peace Commission.  There's
   probably an ecumenical group of witnesses for peace and social justice in
   your area.  You'll probably be drafted if you just show up at one of their
   meetings.  8-}

o  Guest Speaker for various church and citizens groups.  The local Catholic
   Diocese keeps a profile on me, and they call upon me occasionally.  The
   above mentioned Commission also maintains a speakers bureau.

o  Member of DEC Valuing Difference groups:  The Challenged Awareness Network,
   which promotes the value of differently-abled persons; and DECplus, which
   promotes the value of gay, lesbian, and bi-sexual people.

   I've also maintained ties with the oldest and largest soup kitchen in the
   area.  I eat there occasionally, too.  It's not because I'm cheap, either.
   (I always discreetly put something in the donation can)

Peace,
Richard

                   From All Walks of Life '91 (FAWOL'91)
               A pledge walk to benefit AIDS care and research

               Mark your calendars now for Sunday, June 2nd!


    This is the sixth anniversary of "FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE," and Digital 
    is again proud to be a corporate sponsor, as it has been for the past 
    four years.
    
    Last year, more than 500 Digital walkers brought in more than $40,000, 
    which was matched by the Company's Matching Gift Program, the largest 
    single amount raised and matched by a company, on behalf of the AIDS 
    ACTION Committee (AAC) to that date.

    Please watch for future notes here on FAWOL'91!

    You'll also be seeing more information on FAWOL'91 in your local area 
    newsletters, at your site, in other notesfiles, and in LIVEWIRE.  This 
    is PUBLIC information, so PLEASE feel free to extract it and distribute 
    it to your group, organization, site, friends, family, etc..

    We need YOUR help to make FAWOL'91 even more successful than the previous 
    walks.  You can volunteer to help the Digital FAWOL'91 Steering Committee 
    (Contact Steve Derby at 223-5253 or Pat Dufour at 223-9461); or you can 
    be a Site Coordinator for your facility (Contact Edna Marston at 225-6221 
    or Jeremy Mathews at 291-7569), or you can collect pledges and join the 
    thousands of people walking on June 2nd who belive that AIDS is an issue 
    which touches us all.

    Thank you!

    Steve Derby, Pat Dufour
    Co-Chairs, Digital FAWOL'91 Steering Committee

    I have already pledged to sponsor an FAWOL walker.  I challenge all
    readers to meet or beat my pledge of $30. [Gee, I feel like I'm
    watching a PBS local channel pledge break! 8-}]
    
    And, don't forget to fill out one of those Digital Matching Gift forms!
    
    Peace,
    Richard

Does the AAC (AIDS Action Committee) have any political involvement or take
any stand on gay or lesbian issues?

Collis

| -< I like to know organizations before I support them... >-
| Does the AAC (AIDS Action Committee) have any political involvement or take
| any stand on gay or lesbian issues?

	Collis, if they did, would it mean that you WOULDN'T donate money to
it? Isn't the cure for the disease more important? 


Glen

Glen,

You are quite right in thinking that I would not donate money to an
organization which supports activities that I believe are wrong.  It
is for exactly this reason that I do not give money to the United
Way (some of which would go to clinics supporting and encouraging
abortion).  I give money and time only to organizations which I believe
use all the money wisely and in a morally correct way.

There are many organizations, I believe, that support AIDS research
without taking a political stand on homosexuality.  I wish to know
if this is one of them.

Collis

| You are quite right in thinking that I would not donate money to an
| organization which supports activities that I believe are wrong.  It
| is for exactly this reason that I do not give money to the United
| Way (some of which would go to clinics supporting and encouraging
| abortion).  I give money and time only to organizations which I believe
| use all the money wisely and in a morally correct way.

| There are many organizations, I believe, that support AIDS research
| without taking a political stand on homosexuality.  I wish to know
| if this is one of them.

	This is sad. If you give to the United Way you can send your money
where YOU want to. It doesn't make the whole organization bad. If the AAC
does support lesbigays, what's the problem? You're not giving your money 
to lesbigays, but to help fight a disease that's killing a hell of a lot
of people, both straight and lesbigays. If your money was going to a group
that you feel are wrong (in this case lesbigays), then yes, I can see your
point. The end result should be that if the money can be channeled to a
specific cause, one that you would like to help out with, why does it matter
who you're giving your money to as long as it's going to the right place?


Glen

Note 198.9

<<Does the AAC (AIDS Action Committee) have any political involvement or take
any stand on gay or lesbian issues?>>

The following is in response to my inquiry about AAC.  It represents
an individual opinion and is *not* a policy statement of the AAC.

Richard
========================================================================
Gee, you mean he doesn't need a breakdown of the nationalities and
religious affiliations of all the staff and board of directors, too??

Anyway, I haven't heard of the "AAC" as a whole endorsing any candidate(s).
When I've heard the Director, Larry Kessler, speak out on legislation, it's
always in the context of how it would benefit or hurt people with AIDS/ARC/
HIV.  It was founded by gay men and lesbians, but its current staff and
BoD are composed of both gay and straight people.  Having been a night
manager there, I can say it is definitely a pro-gay ambiance.  And at the
Walk itself, there is a (wonderful, imho) mixture of same-sex and opposite-
sex couples and families.  People really do come "from all walks of life"!

deb

    RE: .12, Glen and Richard,
    
>	This is sad. If you give to the United Way you can send your money
> where YOU want to. It doesn't make the whole organization bad. 
    
    I don't think you are entirely correct here.  I believe budgets are
    devised according to some kind of formula.  The more money given
    specifically to cause A, the more unspecified-giving money is freed up
    to be given to cause B, which the giver may be opposed to.
    
    I consider it valid and moral for Collis to give or withhold his money
    according to the total agenda of an organization.  
    
    (I once objected to giving to United Way because
    it supported the Boy Scouts; I no longer consider that high on my
    "don't want to support" list, but I would prefer to give to specific
    groups that invest all their money in causes *I* agree with.  And I'm
    *not* at all crazy about all the emphasis on United Way fundraising
    within DEC -- but that's for some other note in some other conference,
    probably!)
    
    Collis and I probably support organizations at opposite ends of the
    social/moral/political spectrum.  I would support (if I had
    discretionary funds to give) efforts to transport women who needed 
    and wanted abortions to appropriate clinics; clearly Collis would not.
    Who knows, maybe we "cancel each other out"? :-)
    
    Likewise, the note Richard quoted would likely not sound nearly so
    sarcastic if the questions raised had come from the left end of the
    spectrum rather than from the right...
    
    So please, let's not make an issue out of the question Collis raised. 
    Surely there *are* organizations he can give to that support AIDS
    projects without also supporting gay rights. 
    
    Nancy

Note 198.14

>    I consider it valid and moral for Collis to give or withhold his money
>    according to the total agenda of an organization.  

Agreed. 100%. I do the same thing.

Richard

    	 I also support the concept that it is valid for an individual to
    give or withold his/her money according to the total agenda of the
    organization.
    
        I will NOT support a group that has any "gun control" agenda in
    it's goal.....as an example. I also will not support groups with a
    ~large~ overhead. My favorite places to put my very limited funds,
    are directly into the local church. The money then goes directly
    to the needy people.
    
    Marc H. 

    Re: 198.18
    
    Well...I sure don't want to start a "gun control" string! There sure
    are better places to discuss that.
    
    I quess that my point is that the money should go directly to the end
    user...i.e. the research for AIDS or the homeless shelter,NOT,to 
    endorse the political agenda of the group. When I want to do that,
    I'll donate to the political group....i.e. NRA/ILA or democrats or
    liberals or ACLU,etc.
    
    Marc H.

Re:  198.12

  >If the AAC does support lesbigays, what's the problem? 

Perhaps I didn't speak very clearly.  I have no problem whatsoever in
helping *any* person overcome a disease.  The problem I have is in
supporting an organization which supports (explicit or implied)
a homosexual sexual lifestyle.  

Glen, do you agree that this is an area where I can make a legitimate
distinction?

Collis

    
    Collis,
    
    it would help me understand what you're saying if you could
    perhaps be more specific as to what you mean by "supports
    a sexual lifestyle"....
    
    what constitutes "support"? it's a certainty that AAC gives
    condoms (and dental dams) to most any one who asks for them.
    is that the kind of activity that you consider support?
    
    if you mean some kind of "political" support (eg., lobbying
    legislators), i don't think you'll find that AAC provides
    that kind of support to the Lesbigay community.
    
    /peter

There are several ways an organization could be set up:

  1)  It could be a research organization which had no or little
      contact with individuals with AIDS and had no political position.

  2)  It could be a service organization which dealt with people
      regularly and took a public stand on homosexual sexual activity.
      This stand could be:

         - homosexual sexual activity is wrong
         - homosexual sexual activity is right
         - homosexual sexual activity is none of our business

  3)  Who constitutes the leadership of the organization?  What do they
      believe?  Are they avowed homosexuals who regularly pursue
      sexual activity?  Do they support other homosexuals engaging
      in sexual activity?  Do they take no stand?  If the organization
      as an organization has no explicit policy, the leadership defines
      what the organization believes and will support.

As far as condoms go, this is a very controversial subject.  Personally,
I do not believe that giving away condoms is a godly way to deal with
the AIDS virus.  In terms of finding a cure for AIDS (which I strongly
believe in and for which more money in our country is given than to curing
any other disease), condoms don't do a thing (i.e. a condom never cured
an AIDS victim).  In terms of caring for an AIDS patient, condoms don't
do a thing.  In terms of preventing the spread of AIDS, condoms only help
when the individual chooses to be sexually active (and this sexual
activity is immoral from my understanding of the Bible except with your
spouse) and therefore giving condoms does two things - encourages
immoral sexual behavior and helps prevent the spread of AIDS if the
condom is properly used.  When I weigh the two, I choose not to give
condoms out and do not support those who do.

Collis

    thanks, Collis..
    
    although you didn't speak directly to my question, i can infer
    from what you've written the answer.
    
    i'm having trouble believing though that you base your decisions
    as to what organizations you support on what their adminstrators'
    sexual orientations are. (perhaps i misread this..)
    
    and Collis, don't take this as a flame...however,
    
    gay people really don't like to called Homosexuals...by using the
    word, homosexual, you only distance yourself from gay people. if 
    you truly wish to communicate (and have gay people both take you
    seriously and *listen* to you) i would strongly suggest that you
    use the same word choice (gay) as the people to whom you are 
    speaking. if, of course, it's your purpose to alienate gay people
    then by all means continue...
    
    "avowed homosexual" always manages to make me smile. i have this
    image of someone with one hand on the Bible and the other raised
    in the air....
    
    most sincerely,
    
    peter

| 1)  It could be a research organization which had no or little
| contact with individuals with AIDS and had no political position.

| 2)  It could be a service organization which dealt with people
| regularly and took a public stand on homosexual sexual activity.
| This stand could be:

| - homosexual sexual activity is wrong
| - homosexual sexual activity is right
| - homosexual sexual activity is none of our business

| 3)  Who constitutes the leadership of the organization?  What do they
| believe?  Are they avowed homosexuals who regularly pursue
| sexual activity?  Do they support other homosexuals engaging
| in sexual activity?  Do they take no stand?  If the organization
| as an organization has no explicit policy, the leadership defines
| what the organization believes and will support.

	Thanks for sharing that with us Collis. And no, I have no objection to
what you have said about not giving money to a group that you feel isn't in
your best interest. But what I find curious is that the AAC stands for the AIDS
Action Committee. That means they are taking action to help those infected with
the AIDS virus. Now, you have stated that you're worried that this group might
support a gay lifestyle. Everything you have stated is about gay this and gay
that. What you've seemed to have forgotten is AIDS isn't JUST a disiease
lesbigays get. Heterosexuals get it as well. Babies are being born with this
disease more and more. This is a world wide epidemic, not just a lesbigay one.
This is why it made me wonder why there would be a problem in giving money to
it. The AAC reaches out and helps so MANY people of any sexual orientation.
They don't put blinders on and just choose to help the lesbigays. Can you see
why I would question you on this? 

Glen

Hmmm,

I don't know if this is appropriate here, either in this string or in this 
file, but here goes... this is not specifically "Christian", but it is an 
opportunity for service...and fun, to boot!

(from a flier I got from a friend who works in one of the mentioned clinics)

		About "In the Best Interests of the Children"

			     The Club Tour

"In the Best Interests of the Children", a first in the nation, state-wide
comprehensive Pediatric AIDS Awareness Week will be held in Massachusettes,
April 14-20, 1991.  [this week]  This state-wide effort is designed to raise
money for pediatric clinics in the state which care for children and their
families infected with the AIDS virus. 

There are nearly 400 children and their families currently being cared for at 
the four pediatric AIDS centers in the state.  In Massachusetts, currently 1 
out of 40 babies born carries AIDS virus anitbodies and one-third of these 
babies will be affected.

These pediatric centers need funds to provide case management for these 
families.  Monies are needed for nurses, social workers, transportation and 
sometimes even clothing and food for these children and their families.

Here in Worcester and Central Massachusetts these funds will go to the 
Maternal/Child HIV program at the University of Massachusetts Medical Center, 
one of the four pediatric AIDS centers in the state.

The "Club Tour" is a special "night on the town" designed to:

	offer supporters of the pediatric AIDS programs an opportunity
	to enjoy many of Downtown Worcester's Nightclubs.  Each of the
	Nightclubs listed below will give free admission to patrons
	wearing a "In the Best Interests of the Children" button.

	[Buttons are $5.  I understand that the clubs will offer reduced 
	admission without the button, with all proceeds going to help the 
	program.]

The specifics are as follows:

Date:		April 20, 1991 [tomorrow, Saturday]
Time:		Evening 
		[I understand there's a 'kick-off' at Clubland at 7 p.m.]
Location:	downtown Worcester Clubs

Abbie's				The Mailbox
279-281 Main Street		282 Main Street

Bahama Bob's			Ralph's Chadwick Diner
23 Foster Street		Alley off Grove Street

Cahoot's			Sh Booms
Marriott Hotel			213 Main Street

Club 241			Sir Morgan's Cove
241 Southbridge Street		89-93 Green Street

Clubland			Tammany Hall
261 Main Street			43 Pleasant Street

Firehouse Cafe			Time Out
One Exchange Street		340 Main Street

Gilrein's
802 Main Street

For information call 508/856-6282

[The button also lists 2 phone numbers: 617/536-7050 and 508/856-5520.]

Entered not for debate, but as information only.  If you want to support these 
programs, and enjoy dancing, and are free tomorrow night, 'come on down!'.

Peace,

Jim

Re:  198.24

  >Now, you have stated that you're worried that this group might support 
  >a gay lifestyle. 

Just lookin' for the facts.

  >What you've seemed to have forgotten is AIDS isn't JUST a disease
  >lesbigays get. 

I don't see how you could have gotten that impression, Glen.  I made it
quite clear several times that supporting AIDS research and a cure is
very important to me.  Did you read those sections?  Did you understand
what I was saying?  If you did, why are you saying that I have "forgotten
AIDS isn't JUST a disease lesbigays get"?  Why are you inferring that I
don't have compassion for homosexuals when I do?  I actually resent the
accusations that you are making.

Collis

Re:  198.23

Peter,

  >gay people really don't like to called Homosexuals...

This issue has been raised several times in this conference and the
initial decision was to use the word homosexuals.  Later, some suggested
that "gays" was appropriate and others argued that this did not include
lesbians.  Glen uses "lesbigay", I word I have never heard anyone else
use and which I personally prefer not to us.  I believe the conference
decision is still to use the word homosexual (but I could be wrong).

Collis

| >What you've seemed to have forgotten is AIDS isn't JUST a disease
| >lesbigays get.

| I don't see how you could have gotten that impression, Glen.  

	Very easy Collis. When one asks if the AAC supports gays when AIDS is a
disease anyone can get, one has to wonder why that would even come up? They are
helping everyone. Why would they support one group? If that were the case they
would be helping out that one group and not everyone.

| I made it
| quite clear several times that supporting AIDS research and a cure is
| very important to me.  Did you read those sections?  Did you understand
| what I was saying?  

	Collis, I don't believe that I ever said you didn't care about a cure
for AIDS. If this group can help people out, then where is the problem? They
help ALL people, not just one brand.

| If you did, why are you saying that I have "forgotten
| AIDS isn't JUST a disease lesbigays get"?  

	Read my first paragraph.

| Why are you inferring that I
| don't have compassion for homosexuals when I do?  I actually resent the
| accusations that you are making.

	Collis, you say you will help the AAC with $$$$ as long as they don't
support gays. What else is anyone supposed to think?


Glen

    RE: .28, Glen,
    
>	Very easy Collis. When one asks if the AAC supports gays when AIDS is a
>disease anyone can get, one has to wonder why that would even come up? They are
>helping everyone. Why would they support one group? If that were the case they
>would be helping out that one group and not everyone.
    
    Would *you* support an organization that helps AIDS victims but *also*
    preached to the lesbigay victims that they should repent of their sexual
    ways and stop all sexual activity?  I don't think you would!  I also
    think you perfectly well Collis -- and you know that he
    and I do not usually share the same "social agenda" so you know I am
    not opposed to you or your views.
    
    Frankly, guys, I *do* get tired of this wrangling, especially since
    the debate does not seem to fit the topic of this string.  (Where or
    where is the moderator-who-moves-notes when I need him? :-/ )
    
    Can't you two get into this in the "Christianity and Gays" string?  Or
    start a new string on "Political Agendas of Service Organizations."
    Or, or -- gee, *anything*! Gimme a break!
    
    Nancy

    re: .27
    
    thanks for the reply, Collis...
    
    now if you could point me to where this "initial decision" was
    made, i would be happy to re-visit it.
    
    this "decision" is not something that I remember ever having
    been agreed upon. I distinctly remember discussing this with
    Bonnie Reinke but i don't remember our reaching closure on this.
    
    as I have pointed out, this choice is up to you, or Alfred or
    Bonnie..but believe me (i really trying to be helpful here) if
    you decide to call gay people, "homosexuals" you will most certainly
    have "drawn a line in the sand". many gay people find the word
    pejorative.
    
    why is this such an issue for you? or don't you believe me?
    
    (perhaps we should move this discussion to "Gays and Christianity")
    
    peter

Re:  198.29

  >Frankly, guys, I *do* get tired of this wrangling...

I'm sorry to be involved in this wrangling too.

Collis

    It has been suggested that a new topic might be created on ministry
    to persons with AIDS.  Note 217 was initiated for that purpose.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

	The following is an except from one of the most cleverly written
solicitations I ever read.  The most amazing part to me is that it's
absolutely true.  These people are more into relationship than success,
and success becomes almost an incidental by-product of relationship.

Peace,
Richard

		****************************************

	When we write you only every 8 years the temptation is to get
wordy about what we've "been doing."  But in the interest of brevity
we will trust that our personal relationship with you fills in most of
the details.  Virtually everyone of you who receive this letter have
had personal and immediate involvement with what we do and who we are.
You have kept the Land Trust, Bijou House and Soup Kitchen alive and well
without the need for fund raisers or public relations departments.  For
22 years you have made it possible for us to do "the work" without the
need to worry about "the resources."  Your friendship is expressed in
remarkable generosity of money, time, energy and love.  A happy
circumstance for us: we would not be very good at raffles, bingos,
turkey shoots, car washes, cake sales or 10 kilometer runs.  In every
way you are a vital part of our daily mission.

	Our letter today is to let you know about this new and special
project and invite your participation.  A couple of years ago, we
printed an after-Christmas thought which comes to mind today:

	When the song of the angels is stilled,
	When the star in the sky is gone,
	When the kings and princes are home,
	When the shepherds are back with their flocks,

	The work of Christmas begins:

		To find the lost,
		To heal the broken,
		To feed the hungry,
		To release the prisoner,
		To rebuild the nations,
		To bring peace among people,
		To make music in the heart.

My church is in need of a musician, preferably a pianist, to play
during worship, 5:00 PM to approximately 6:30 PM, Sunday evenings
in Colorado Springs.

Please contact me via E-mail at CSC32::J_CHRISTIE if you or someone
you know in the Pikes Peak region would be available and interested
in serving in this way.

Peace,
Richard

    The poem quoted in .33 is from one written by Howard Thurman,
    a remarkable black preacher who was pastor of 
    Boston University's Marsh Chapel (in the 60's I think).  
    
    I hope they gave him credit.  You can also find the poem
    on Christmas cards sometimes.
    
    Nancy