Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

     The United States is now the world's leader in imprisonment of its
     citizens.  A decade ago, the Soviet Union and South Africa had more
     people imprisoned per capita than the United States.  But now we are
     number one!
 
     Our crime rates are some of the highest in the world, but the rise in
     imprisonment rates has far outstripped the rise in crime rates over
     the past decade or so.
 
     Rehabilitation of wrongdoers, once an important goal, is no longer
     considered a central aim in most criminal codes or by most
     participants.  The goal of the criminal justice system now appears to
     be mainly punishment.  Our reliance on prisons stems largely from this
     emphasis on punishment.
 
     Building more prisons has not and will not solve our overuse of
     prisons.  Prison populations will not decrease until our purpose
     becomes less punitive, non-prison options become accepted and
     decision-makers are made accountable for their actions.
 
     [From a report in 28 February Mennonite Weekly Review.]

Chuck Colson's organization Prison Fellowship is working within many
prison's to change this discouraging situation.  The hope and changed
lives that result because of an experience with the living Lord are
truly wonderful to behold.  This is one area of social activism
where Christians have made a significant difference in the most
important of ways - by meeting the needs and sharing the gospel.

Collis

I concur with Collis about Prison Fellowship.  Some old friends of
mine were awarded a certificate of recognition by Chuck Colson,
himself, a few years back.  I know they worked their hearts out in
that ministry.  And, I met some of the men they worked with and I witnessed
incredible results.

At the same time, I frequently see the prison system as simply society's
way to warehouse some of its undesirables, to get them safely out of reach,
out of sight, and out of mind.

I've visited prisoners of conscience at the local Criminal Justice
Center (a euphemism for jail) on a number of occasions.  It has served
to reinforce this impression.

Richard

Prisons in America today are indeed in sad shape.  It does appear that
they are used more for controlling the poor than for rehabilitation of
wrongdoers.

Collis

Article 13980 of alt.activism:
Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!decwrl!uunet!midway!arthur!harelb
From: [email protected] (Harel Barzilai)
Newsgroups: alt.activism
Subject: Death Penalty -- Institue for Southern Studies
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 27 Apr 91 07:01:04 GMT
References: <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected] (NewsMistress)
Organization: ACTIV-L (Activists Mailing List)
Lines: 162

In article <[email protected]> [email protected] writes:
>A while back (abolition day, actually) I posted the text of an AIUSA flyer
>about the Death Penalty.  Anyway, since then, my e-file has been lost.  If
>anyone saved it, please e-mail me a copy.  I'll be immensely grateful if I
>can avoid retyping it, as it took quite a while...
>Thanks,
>	Joe

##################################################################


            *********************************************
	      C o m m o n   M i s c o n c e p t i o n s
	    A b o u t   t h e   D e a t h   P e n a l t y
            *********************************************
       --------------------------------------------------------
	From a pamphlet by the Institute for Southern Studies
	   P.O. Box 531, Durham, NC 27702 -- (919) 688-8167
       --------------------------------------------------------

	[Send the 1-line message GET DEATH-P INSTITUT ACTIV-L
	to: [email protected] for a copy of this file]

------------------------------------------------------------------


        send GET ACTIV-L ARCHIVE ACTIV-L for a listing of files
	send to [email protected]

THE DEATH PENALTY IS A DETERRENT

Since about three-fourths of all murders involve family members or
close acquaintances who are killed out of anger or passion, the threat
of the electric chair has little effect on these spontaneous,
unpremeditated acts. On the other hand, premeditated murders are
committed by people who do not expect to be caught: They are no more
deterred by the death penalty than they would be by life imprisonment.

Statistically, it is impossible to prove that capital punishment has
any effect upon violent crime. In 1974, death penalty states had an
average murder rate of 9.3 per 100,000 population, whereas abolition
states had an average rate of 5.8. The states with the six lowest
murder rates are all abolition states [clearly *part* of the reason is
that when crime is low, politicians can't capitalize by proposing more
death penalties, but these stats are still interesting -HB]

EXECUTION IS CHEAPER THAN INCARCERATION.

When a life is at stake, the legal costs are exorbitant. The money
spent on public defenders, district attorneys, judges, court paperwork
and segregation of prisoners on Death Row would easily cover the costs
of life imprisonment. Time magazine in 1971 reported that the
commutation of death sentences of 15 Arkansas prisoners saved the
state an estimated $1.5 million.

THE DEATH PENALTY IS A NECESSARY EVIL, THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE.

America is one of the few industrialized nations of the world to
continue the practice of capital punishment. Great Britain abolished
the death penalty in 1965. Canada abolished capital punishment in
1976. Only a few countries in Latin America and some emerging Third
World nations continue the practice of legal execution.

The alternative to capital punishment is a capital life sentence. A
capital life sentence would require a mandatory *minimum*  sentence
before an individual could even be considered for parole. This does
not mean that a murderer would be released after serving the minimum
time: Dangerous people, such as Charles Manson, could be segregated
from society indefinitely.

ONLY THE GUILTY ARE EXECUTED.

In New Jersey in 1918, George Brandon was executed for a murder which
another man confessed to months later. Frank Smith was executed in
Connecticut in 1949, only to be proven innocent minutes after the
execution took place. In 1963, the state of Florida sentenced two
men, Freddie Pitts and Wilbert Lee, to the electric chair; in 1975
their innocence was proven and Pitts and Lee were released after 12
years in prison. If the death penalty had been legal during that time,
Pitts and Lee would be dead.

These are only a few of the many known instances where the death
penalty was used on an innocent victim. Capital punishment is
irrevocable.

A MURDERER WILL KILL AGAIN

Prison and parole officials generally agree, particularly in
abolitionist states, that people convicted of homicide are typically
more successful parolees and make the "least troublesome, most
helpful" prisoners. This is consistent with the fact that the majority
of murders are "acts of passion" between family members and
acquaintances.

CAPITAL PUNISHMENT IS EQUITABLY ADMINISTERED.

Justice William O. Douglas, of the United States Supreme Court, once
commented, "One searches in vain for the execution of any member of
the affluent strata of our society."

Without exception, those who are on Death Row across the U.S. are the
defendants who were too poor to afford experienced and effective
counsel. Most were represented by court-appointed lawyers who were too
inexperienced, unconcerned or overworked to argue effectively their
client's case. Expensive private lawyers, on the other hand, have the
resources and ability to obtain prison sentence or acquittal for
their equally guilty clients.

Likewise, the death penalty is inequitably administered in relation to
race. In Florida, where John Spenkelink was recently executed, an
individual is seven times more likely to be executed if the victim is
white than if the victim is black.

THE BIBLE SUPPORTS THE DEATH PENALTY.

It is generally recognized that the Bible required the death penalty
for acts of murder. The bible also calls for death in cases of
adultery (Lev. 20:10), blasphemy (Lev. 24:15), working on the sabbath
(Ex. 35:2), refusing to obey a priest or judge (Deut. 17:12),
disobedient children (Deut. 21:18), fornication (Deut. 22:23) and 16
other offenses.

In reality, the Bible when taken as a whole is more concerned with
mercy and forgiveness than with judgment and condemnation. Such a
perspective has led nearly all major religious organizations to adopt
formal statement against capital punishment.

ELECTROCUTION IS QUICK AND HUMANE

One need only read the Associated Press account of John Spenkelink's
execution to realize that electrocution is neither quick nor humane:

"The first surge (which was administered at 10:12) singed the skin off
his right calf, sending smoke into the death chamber. He clenched his
left fist, then his hands began to curl and blacken.

"The doctor unbuttoned his white shirt, pulled up the T-shirt
underneath and placed a stethoscope on his chest. The doctor stepped
back and another surge of electricity was sent through the body by
two anonymous executioners in black hoods. There was another
stethoscope check, another surge, the third, the doctor checked the
pulse and nodded to the warden that Spenkelink was dead. It was 10:18.

"The impact came when the doctor lifted the black death mask: The
lower part of Spenkelink's face was swollen and blackened by the three
2,500 volt surges that ended his life."

It had taken six minutes and three 2,500 volt surges of electricity to
kill John Spenkelink. He was literally cooked alive.

##################################################################

    ##################################################################
   #       Harel Barzilai for Activists Mailing List (AML)          #
  ##################################################################
To join AML, just send the 1-line message "SUB ACTIV-L <your full
name>" to the address: [email protected]; you should receive a
message confirming that you have been added to the list. An alternate
address is: [email protected]

[If you have problems/questions, contact the list Administrator: Rich
Winkel at [email protected] or MATHRICH%UMCVMB.BITNET]

Article 13981 of alt.activism:
Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!decwrl!wuarchive!uunet!midway!arthur!harelb
From: [email protected] (Harel Barzilai)
Newsgroups: alt.activism
Subject: Death Penalty -- FILE (1) -- AMNESTY
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 27 Apr 91 06:59:03 GMT
References: <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected] (NewsMistress)
Organization: ACTIV-L (Activists Mailing List)
Lines: 288

In article <[email protected]> [email protected] writes:
>A while back (abolition day, actually) I posted the text of an AIUSA flyer
>about the Death Penalty.  Anyway, since then, my e-file has been lost.  If
>anyone saved it, please e-mail me a copy.  I'll be immensely grateful if I
>can avoid retyping it, as it took quite a while...
>Thanks,
>	Joe
>-- 
>|----Joe Germuska | [email protected] | ---- (708) 864-5939 ---|
>|-Join the Peter Gabriel Mailing List:[email protected]|
>|- "I look to the times with you to keep me awake and alive" -P. Gabriel -|
>| "You get to know things better when they go by slow" -Poi Dog Pondering |


******************************************************************

Don't know what you posted but ACITv-L has two files, one of them from
AI, which might be the same you had in mind.

Harel


##################################################################

From an Amnesty International pamphlet...

       ========================================================
		 T h e   D e a t h   P e n a l t y :

	  C R U E L   &   I N H U M A N   P U S H I M E N T
       ========================================================

	[Send the 1-line message GET DEATH-P AMNESTY ACTIV-L
	to: [email protected] for a copy of this file]

	send GET ACTIV-L ARCHIVE ACTIV-L for a listing of files

    "I regard the death penalty as a savage and immoral institution
    that undermines the moral and legal foundations of a society. I
    reject the notion that the death penalty has any essential
    deterrent effect on potential offenders. I am convinced that the
    contrary is true -- that savagery begets only savagery."

		 -- Andrei Sakharov


 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Amnesty International works for the abolition of the death penalty as
part of its continuing efforts to protect human rights around the
world... In more than 25 years' experience documenting human rights
abuses, Amnesty International has seen that the death penalty does
nothing to make society safer. A people's security is threatened when
government shows its abhorrence of violence by perpetrating violence.

In recent years many countries have recognized this and abolished the
death penalty. In 1976 Canada outlawed capital punishment. France did
the same in 1981. In 1987 East Germany abolished the death penalty for
all crimes. In fact, the United States is the only western industrial
nation which still practices capital punishment. [..] In the United
States, several people each month are legally killed. Today [1989],
over 2,200 men and women wait for their end on America's death row,
more than the total number of people reportedly executed worldwide
last year.


 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


    "As one whose husband and mother-in-law have both died the victims
    of murder assassination, I stand firmly and unequivocally opposed
    to the death penalty for those convicted of capital offenses. An
    evil deed is not redeemed by an evil deed of retaliation. Justice
    is never advanced in the taking of a human life. Morality is never
    upheld by legalized murder."

		-- Coretta Scott King


	    THE DEATH PENALTY DOES NOT DETER VIOLENT CRIME

People who favor the death penalty often believe it helps reduce
violent crime. This would be true only if the person who considers
homicides makes a rational [!] decision with the expectation of
arrest, conviction, death sentence, and finally execution. In fact,
this is not true. Most people who murder do not see beyond their
action; they kill quickly in moments of great fear or emotional
stress and under the influence of drugs or alcohol. When the crime is
premeditated, the individual rarely believes he or show will be
apprehended or executed.

In the past 25 years dozens of researchers have analyzed crime
statistics for evidence that capital punishment affects the crime
rate. After reviewing these studies in 1976, the United State Supreme
Court found no conclusive evidence that the death penalty deters
violent crime. The United National came to similar conclusions.

The studies show that murder rates in a death penalty state such as
Illinois differ little from another with a similar population density
without the death penalty such as Michigan. In some cases, states and
countries that have abolished the death penalty show a decrease in
homicides.

In 1975, the year before Canada abolished the death penalty, its
homicide rate was 3.09 per 100,000. In 1986 the rate was down to 2.19,
the lowest in fifteen years. Police officers and prison guards are
not murdered more frequently in states without the death penalty than
in states where it exists.[..] The use of the death penalty may in
some cases increase the crime rate. In New York between 1903 and 1963
individual execution were followed by a slight rise in the state's
homicide rate. The punishment of death offers potential murderers
attention and even fame not experienced by those who are sentenced to
life imprisonment. More significant is the possibility that
legal execution may stimulate violent crime by exemplifying society's
approval of killing.


 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


T H E   D E A T H   P E N A L T Y   I S   I R R E V E R S I B L E 

The death penalty is the only fatal and absolutely irreversible
punishment. An innocent person who has been mistakenly executed can
never be brought back to life. As the number of executions increases,
so does the probability of error. Since 1900 in the United States an
average of one convicted murderer per year was later found innocent. A
1987 Stanford Law Review Study showed that in this country, 23
innocent person shave been executed in the past century. [and many
more innocent people who were not executed by came close]

Freddie Pitts and Wilbert Lee were lucky, but not before they had
spent 12 years in jail, most of them [the years] under sentence of
death, for the murder of two white gas station attendants in Florida.
The two black men were accused of committing the murders, but later
the key witnesses against them withdrew their testimony and another
man confessed to the crime.

In 1975 two innocent men were released. They would have been dead
already if their appeals had not by chance run out during a temporary,
court-imposed moratorium on executions.

Frighteningly enough, two more innocent men were released from prison
this year, convicted of murders they did not commit. Randal Dale Adams
spent 12 years in a Texas prison and James Richardson, 25 years in
Florida's jail. Both men were on death row for crimes they did not
commit only, to be spared similarly to Pitts and Lee by the
court-imposed moratorium on executions.

Timothy Evans was not as lucky. The British people's shock at
discovering that the innocent man had been executed was a major reason
for the abolition of capital punishment in Great Britain.

Execution of innocent people is not the only occasion for error in a
capital case. The court must make absolute decisions about
circumstances that may not be so clear-cut: defendants' personal
participation in a murder, their sanity, whether they were provoked
into committing the murder, or whether they pose a further threat to
society. The finality of the death penalty is also significant when a
new court decision invalidates previous death sentences. In 1977, the
United States Supreme Court ruled that the death penalty is
excessively harsh punishment for the crime of rape. This verdict came
too late for the 455 men executed for that crime since 1930.


 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


     T H E   D E A T H   P E N A L T Y   I S   A   L O T T E R Y

Even if one dismisses the risk of executing the innocent as minuscule
or a necessary evil, the death penalty is still administered with
extreme randomness. With roughly 20,000 homicides each year in the
United States, about 4,000 people are convicted or murder and about
250 are sentences to death. Nearly half of these sentences are set
aside in the appeals process. The public often assumes that a small
portion of criminals who are on death row are there because they have
committed the most horrible crimes. [..] but usually their crimes
cannot be distinguished from those of hundreds of others whose lives
have been spared. In some cases two people equally involved in the
same murder are given entirely different punishments: one is sent to
prison, the other to the electric chair.

The system of death sentencing is like a lottery determined by
countless random factors, such as the attitudes of police and
prosecutors, the skill of court-appointed defense counsel, and the
prejudices of judges and juries. Some judges and some states hand out
the death sentences more frequently than others. For example, Florida
has more than 294 people on death row; Connecticut one. A defense
lawyer can lose his client's life simply by neglecting to make a legal
objection at just the right moment.


    "The death penalty is no more effective a deterrent than life
    imprisonment.... While police and law enforcement officials are
    the strongest advocates of capital punishment, the evidence is
    overwhelming that police are no safer in communities that retain
    the sanction than in those that have abolished it. It also is
    evident that the burden of capital punishment falls upon the poor
    the ignorant, and the underprivileged members of society."

	 -- United States Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall


Whether a person convicted of murder will live or die is not merely a
question of chance. Throughout the world capital punishment is usually
applied in a discriminatory way against minorities and the poor. This
is also true in the United States where since 1972, over 65 percent of
the people on death row have been unskilled, service, or domestic
workers and 60 percent where unemployed at the time of their crimes.

A study of the Texas judicial system found that three out of four
convicted murderers with court-appointed lawyers were sentenced to
death, as opposed to one out of three with private attorneys.


==================================================================
	      Arrests and Sentences for Criminal Homicide
		    by Race of Victim and Offender
		Florida, Georgia, and Texas 1976-1978
------------------------------------------------------------------
Race of			Arrested for	Under Sentence of Death
offender/Victim		Crim. Homicide	Number		Percent
Black/Black		   1,099	16		 1.5
White/White		   1,013	125		12.33
Black/White		      92	 82		89
White/Black		      38	  2		 5.25
------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals			   2,242	225
------------------------------------------------------------------
[Center for Applied Social Research, Northeastern University, Boston]
==================================================================


In the United States blacks and other minorities face a much greater
likelihood of execution than whites similarly charged. Since 1930, 90
percent (405) of the men executed for rape were black. The victim's
race still factors heavily in determining the offender's punishment.

* In Texas black who kill white are six times more likely to receive
the death sentence than those with black victims.

* In Florida, black offenders who murder whites are forty times more
likely than whites who kill blacks to end up on death row.


 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


      THE DEATH PENALTY IS NO WAY TO SHOW THAT KILLING IS WRONG

[..] If capital punishment is appropriate because it takes a life for
a life, why doesn't the government also burn the arsonists's home and
rape the rapist? Because *justice* does not mean punishment that
imitates the crime.


	   THE DEATH PENALTY IS A SYMBOL  -- NOT A SOLUTION

Perhaps the most harmful cost of the death penalty results from the
false assumption that it helps to fight crime. Although the death
penalty has no effect on reducing the crime rate, many politicians
advocate execution to show they are taking steps to make America
safer. This empty gesture distracts society's attention from the
difficult challenge of finding effective solutions to the very real
problems of violence.

 ... The death penalty teaches that killing is sometimes acceptable,
while denying the fundamental humanity of all people -- including
those who commit atrocious acts. With each execution, the United
States further numbs itself to the tragedy of states-sanctioned
killing and undermines its ability to address the human rights
violation of other countries and undermines its respectability within
the world community.

##################################################################

    ##################################################################
   #       Harel Barzilai for Activists Mailing List (AML)          #
  ##################################################################
To join AML, just send the 1-line message "SUB ACTIV-L <your full
name>" to the address: [email protected]; you should receive a
message confirming that you have been added to the list. An alternate
address is: [email protected]

[If you have problems/questions, contact the list Administrator: Rich
Winkel at [email protected] or MATHRICH%UMCVMB.BITNET]

Note 271.211
    
>    Prisoners are coddled.

When was the last time you were incarcerated?  Or is this another armchair
critique?

Richard

    What's an armchair critique?

    Most violent crime is committed by repeat offenders.  Obviously prison
    is NOT a deterrant to these individuals and rehabilitation has it's
    limits!!
    
    -Jack

    I'm not sure I could support 100% capital punishment, but I do go along
    with stiffer laws. That would make the would be think twice before 
    committing a crime that could take his own life as well. 
    We do have very lax laws. Like Jeffrey Dahmer he got 16 life sentances
    Give me a break. And they want to give O.J. the death penalty. Our
    Juditial(sp) system doesn't work, and we want them to regulate 
    religion is schools? I don't think so!!!!!!!
    
    Bruce
     

re Note 176.10 by DNEAST::MALCOLM_BRUC:

>     Our
>     Juditial(sp) system doesn't work, 

        To me this is the #1 argument *against* capital punishment --
        you mean you want to give those people the power to execute?


> and we want them to regulate 
>     religion is schools? I don't think so!!!!!!!
  
        I don't want schools to have anything to do with religion,
        much less "regulate" it!  Unfortunately, some powerful forces
        in our country want to have the public schools dabble in
        religion.

        Bob

    .10
    
    Welcome to CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE, Bruce.
    
    I don't know, but I strongly suspect Geoffrey Dahmer would not have
    been deterred by the possibility of *any* imposed punishment.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    
    
    Richard, I agree Jeffrey D. is a case all by himself. It kind of
    reminds me of the two demonacs and Jesus cast the demons out into
    the swine, what a witness that would of been in jeffreys case.
    
    I'm so thankful that God is the Judge!!
    
    
    Thanks for the welcome Richard, I added my intro to the Christian
    Notes thinking it would cover both files.
    
    Bruce
    
     
    Bruce 
    

    I was reading over in Soapbox that Dahmer got saved in prison and was
    baptized before his death.  Good for him...Like Paul, he was
    regenerated...a sinner saved by grace!
    
    -Jack

.14 AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!"

    I was reading over in Soapbox that Dahmer got saved in prison and was
    baptized before his death.  Good for him...Like Paul, he was
    regenerated...a sinner saved by grace!

So Dahmer, Jeffery Dahmer, killer of 17 and part-time cannibal goes straight
into heaven to sit at the right hand of God, while some poor schmuck that
dedicates his life to helping others but does not believe in a God who provides
scanty (if any) evidence of his existence goes to hell and eternal damnation?

What a system :^(

Steve

2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
 the gift of God:

2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Some behave as though their faith was a work, a thing to be honed
    and perfected, though they'll deny it everytime.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

re .16

I think it is important when quoting Ephesians 2:8-9 to always include 10:

 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
      which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Since deliberate failure to do God's will (i.e., such works God has prepared
for us to walk in, different for each person) is rebellious sin against God
which results in separation from God, one would not expect even the strongest
believer in God (e.g. Satan) to be saved if he refuses to do good works.

However, God is infinitely merciful, and may give an opportunity for salvation
both to the person too lazy to do any works during his life and to the person
who never believed in Him until brought face to face with him at death.

The certainty of these opportunities is not revealed to those of us in this
life; thus we can only recommend obedience to the teaching of Jesus and his
Apostles and their successors until the end of time.

/john

re.15 Steve

	If Dahmer can be saved, anyone can. It is testimony to the extensiveness
of God's mercy. In one sense, we are all Dahmer's needing God's mercy. He says
"whomsoever will...". Whomsoever means all can receive God's eternal salvation.
The danger of eternal damnation is with those who think that they through their
own means, efforts, and works will obtain salvation apart from believing in God.

	However, you said "... goes straight into heaven to sit at the right
hand of God".  Believers do not go straight to heaven when they die and
therefore they don't sit at His right hand. They go to Paradise (a somewhat
pleasant part of Hades).

	
Regards,
ace

    It's also important to keep in mind that Paul was a murderer, Moses,
    David...murderers or in conspiracy to murder...and one of my
    favorites...King Nebudchadnezzer, King and ruler of Babylon...one of
    the most hideous kingdoms of history eventually acknowledged the God of
    Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  By human standards, none of these
    individuals were necessarily deserving of eternal life.  Yet God's
    standards are different than ours!
    
    -Jack

    The thing that makes this whole discussion absurd to me is that anyone
    could dare to claim whether Dahmer or anyone else was "saved" or "not
    saved".
    
    Like making the Bible itself a substitute for Divine Wisdom, the
    statement makes the physical act of Baptism a substitute for the
    internal process of regeneration and rebirth.
    
    God only knows are hearts and souls.  The ritual is only a ritual and
    not the Magic itself.
    
                                       Patricia

RE:         <<< Note 176.21 by POWDML::FLANAGAN "I feel therefore I am" >>>

       
   > Like making the Bible itself a substitute for Divine Wisdom, the
   > statement makes the physical act of Baptism a substitute for the
   > internal process of regeneration and rebirth.
    
    

    Who said that?





 Jim

    
    
    I agree with Patricia, There needs to be a transformation in anyones
    life for God to accept them. That is why only God can judge, because
    only He knows our hearts!! We as humans do our best to judge looking 
    on the outside.
    
    Bruce
    

    Patricia/Bruce:
    
    I actually agree with you 100%.  What I meant to communicate is that if
    Dahmers repentence and his invitation to ask Christ to save him is
    genuine, then we are assured according to different texts of scripture
    that we can know we are saved.  Incidently, I reject the teaching of
    baptismal regeneration.  The physical act of baptism does not save.  
    
    -Jack

re Note 176.20 by AIMHI::JMARTIN:

>     It's also important to keep in mind that Paul was a murderer, Moses,
>     David...murderers or in conspiracy to murder...and one of my
  
        What's that -- rehabilitation of murderers?!

        Something good coming from the fact that certain murderers
        are allowed to "roam free"?

        Bob

    Bob:
    
    You nailed me on that one!!!
    
    -Jack

re Note 176.26 by AIMHI::JMARTIN:

        Jack,

        I don't want to come across as defending the status quo,
        because that's the last thing on my mind.

        The justice system needs work -- in every generation it
        demands vigilance to find and fix problems.  Each generation
        encounters different problems.

        The problem I see is that while real life situations require
        individual judgment (it's a *judicial* system, after all)
        and individual handling, that judgment has been poorly
        exercised in recent times.  Part of the blame may lie outside
        of the courtroom per se -- one reason why minor and
        first-time convicts receive little or no prison time is the
        lack of prison space.

        I don't, however, think that the answer is to institute a
        system with no capability of judgment beyond guilt.

        Certainly one of the problems is the likelihood that a
        first-time offender gets little or no punishment.  In another
        note a few months ago I suggested that Singapore-style
        flogging might be preferable to incarceration for less
        serious offenses.  It's easier to administer, costs less,
        does not take up prison space, keeps the offender from
        further indoctrination in crime by being housed with career
        criminals, and gets them back out in the real world to which
        they would eventually return anyway and in which they need to
        be able to function.  I think it may even be more humane.

        Bob

    John,
    
>Since deliberate failure to do God's will (i.e., such works God has prepared
>for us to walk in, different for each person) is rebellious sin against God
>which results in separation from God, one would not expect even the strongest
>believer in God (e.g. Satan) to be saved if he refuses to do good works.

Titus 3:5-7
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy
he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the
hope of eternal life.

>However, God is infinitely merciful, and may give an opportunity for salvation
>both to the person too lazy to do any works during his life and to the person
>who never believed in Him until brought face to face with him at death.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

>The certainty of these opportunities is not revealed to those of us in this
>life; thus we can only recommend obedience to the teaching of Jesus and his
>Apostles and their successors until the end of time.
    
    Every passage in the Bible where the subject of salvation is addressed
    to Christians always uses the term "saved" (i.e., past tense). 
    Believers have complete assurance in their salvation today.  Works are 
    done out of appreciation and gratitude for what God has done for us
    and will earn us heavenly reward.  Salvation and works are separate
    issues.  Salvation comes first.  No unsaved person will perform works
    to serve God because they aren't sealed with the Holy Spirit and have
    no desire to serve God.
    
Romans 10:9-13
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in
thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord
over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    God Bless,
    Mike

Psalms 146:7  Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which
giveth food to the hungry. The LORD looseth the prisoners:

Isaiah 42:7  To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from
the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isaiah 61.1  The LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto
the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim
liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that
are] bound;

Matthew 25:43-44 (Jesus speaking) I was a stranger, and ye took me
not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye
visited me not.  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when
saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or
sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

>So Dahmer, Jeffery Dahmer, killer of 17 and part-time cannibal goes straight
>into heaven to sit at the right hand of God, while some poor schmuck that
>dedicates his life to helping others but does not believe in a God who provides
>scanty (if any) evidence of his existence goes to hell and eternal damnation?

We will disagree on the "scanty evidence" part, but that aside, yes.

>What a system :^(

Yes, it is.  God's grace is awesome.  I pray that you will see your need
for it, even if it takes until the moment before your death.

-Steve

Note 271.208

>    Our current system coddles prisoners.
    
When this assertion was made recently to the head of Colorado's Department
of Corrections, she responded, "If that's the case, let's try an experiment.
Let's unlock all the prison cells and see how many stay."

How vocal are those who've never spent a night in jail or even visited
someone in jail.

Richard

    	That's a nice, flashy sound bite, Richard, but let's be honest
    	here.  The reason that most prisoners would escape if allowed
    	to is because they are forced to give up one very important
    	thing -- their freedom.  That's the whole idea behind prison!
    	It is for that one specific reason that they would leave.
    	Still, the fact that they would not stay if given the choice
    	does not change the fact that they receive many things that
    	those outside the prison system do not, and that many people
    	resent seeing them receive.

    I for one do resent it.  Prison should be a place nobody would ever
    want to consider going back to again.  Our justice system is in such a
    way that prisoners are afforded more rights than the victims.
    
    -Jack

    .34
    
    I know you resent it.  And somehow that doesn't seem to present a problem
    for you as a Christian.
    
    I have in my possession a letter from Phil Berrigan, a man who has
    seen his share of prison and who, I think it would be accurate to say,
    does not relish the thought of going back.  To my knowledge, Berrigan
    has never indicated, as a man of God and an insider, that prison inmates
    are coddled.
    
    I guess the view's different depending on where you're sitting.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

re Note 176.35 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE:

> ...that prison inmates are coddled.

        It seems that some think that if an inmate has something -- a
        TV set, a gymnasium, access to a lawyer -- that some working
        person on the outside doesn't have, then the prisoner is
        coddled.

        Bob

    Bob:
    
    Prisoners come out of prison much larger, better fed, and alot
    stronger.  Why not, I'd spend all day lifting weights too.
    
    I believe prisoner of medium crimes should be fed a staple of jelly
    doughnuts, bacon and sausages, and the like for breakfast.  For lunch
    they should have a small portion of soup...enough to keep them alive
    followed by a large piece of chocolate cake or some such.  or
    dinner....nothing but hamburgers, meatloaf, or something to keep them
    nice and out of shape.  Then take the weights away so they'll come out
    nice and fat...to the point where they cannot do bodily damage to
    anybody.
    
    By the way Bob, there is a man who is being released from prison next
    week.  A cop pulled him over ten years ago and the 19 year old closed
    the window on his arm and drove down the road.  the police officers
    life ended when he caremed a telephone pole.  The kid smirked
    throughout the whole court proceeding.  It is nine years later and he's
    serving half a manslaughter sentence.  He's laughing at us Bob...and he
    looks quite fine to me.  If that isn't coddling, tell me what is.  
    
    -Jack

re Note 176.37 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN:

>     By the way Bob, there is a man who is being released from prison next
>     week.  A cop pulled him over ten years ago and the 19 year old closed
>     the window on his arm and drove down the road.  the police officers
>     life ended when he caremed a telephone pole.  The kid smirked
>     throughout the whole court proceeding.  It is nine years later and he's
>     serving half a manslaughter sentence.  He's laughing at us Bob...and he
>     looks quite fine to me.  If that isn't coddling, tell me what is.  
  
        You are concluding that he's "coddled" in prison on the
        evidence that a) he's healthy and b) he had a bad attitude at
        his trial?!

        Jack, if that's what constitutes evidence of coddling for you,
        there is nothing that anyone could say to convince you
        otherwise.

        I suspect that your lust for justice would settle for nothing
        less than some sort of torture.  How foolish that our
        founders, aided and abetted by the bleeding-heart liberal
        courts, have outlawed cruel punishments!

        Bob

    Didn't say I promoted cruel and unusual punishment.  I stated some
    months back complete exile from the United States...never to return.
    That sounds good to me.  Just like Australia many years ago.
    
    And by the way, this man is being released early because of liberal
    justice policies.  As far as I'm concerned, we failed the victims
    family here.
    
    _Jack

    And where, may I ask, is the spirit of Christ?  Or is your brand
    of Christianity from the same source as the warden in "The Shawshank
    Redemption"?
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    
    I've said it before, and I'll say it again: to site that some prisoners
    receive a higher standard of living than some people in the general
    public is more an indictment of the so-called social "safety net" than
    it is of our penal system. I have seldom been more perplexed with the
    mind set of the self-defined Bible believing Christian than I am when I
    read their ideas on the ideal penal system. 
    
    
    	Eric

    Eric:
    
    Not really sure what you mean.  Maybe if you define safety net I would
    understand it.
    
    Richard, I don't seem to recall Jesus jumping up and down to defend the
    injustice done to the two convicts at his side.  Does this mean he
    didn't have the Christian Spirit in him either?
    
    Let's look at this from a political standpoint Richard.  If somebody
    were to break into your house and kill a family member of yours, why
    should his livelihood be hoisted on the shoulders of the countries
    citizenry?  Why does our penal system not demand justice?
    
    -Jack

    Wasn't there an O. Henry story about a bum who would commit some minor
    crime every fall so that he could go to a nice warm jail for the
    winter?  There are indeed people who are materially worse off than many
    prison inmates.  But I do not think that means that prisons should be
    made as bad as the worst of real life.

    Good point and Glen is a big proponent of fixing things that don't work
    the way they're intended.
    
    Right now there are approximately 150 employment and training programs,
    in 14 separate government departments, costing $24B per year.  There
    are at least 340 separate programs for the well being of children, in
    11 departments and agencies...costing 60B per year.  We also have
    welfare for illegal aliens.  What I'm getting at here is that I believe
    our tax dollars can definitely be utilized at less the cost and at
    twice the efficiency...and guys on the street wouldn't have to commit a
    crime to stay warm.  My scorn isn't directed to individuals who are
    down on their luck.  It is directed to the beurocratic machinery that
    cause people to be dependent and a slave to government programs.  They
    are doing alot of good but I think the sooner we admit there is a ton
    of waste, the better off we'll be.
    
    By the way Glen, my information came from the Heritage Foundation.
    
    -Jack

Note 176.42

>    Richard, I don't seem to recall Jesus jumping up and down to defend the
>    injustice done to the two convicts at his side.  Does this mean he
>    didn't have the Christian Spirit in him either?

You don't see me or anyone else defending injustice, though you obviously
think you do.

And you keep talking about capital punishment in the prison string and
imprisonment in the capital punishment string.
    
Richard

    Bummer, you didn't say Shalom!  :-(
    
    I can always tell when your exasperated with me Richard!
    
    Salaami,
    
    -Jack

o  Blacks are imprisoned at 7 times the rate of whites.

o  The U.S. prison population passed the one million mark for the first
   time as of June 1994.

o  In 1980, fourteen years earlier, the prison population was 329,821 (less
   than half a million).

.47 CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Unquenchable fire"

o  In 1980, fourteen years earlier, the prison population was 329,821 (less
   than half a million).

I think that you'll find that the vast majority of the increase is due to our
governments war on civil liberties, er, I mean drugs.

Steve

.48 Indeed, (see second bulleted item):

o  85% of wardens polled in a study of 157 state prisons said that the
   Republican "Contract on America" does *not* provide effective solutions
   to the nation's crime problems (but what would they know anyway?).

o  The same wardens believe that the U.S. prison population is growing
   because too many minor offenders (mostly drugs) are being sentenced
   under tougher laws that require longer jail stays.

o  Over 60% of all women in prison are women of color.

    Why are their 60% women of color?   

Facts cited in notes:

	271.344

	271.346

	176.47

	176.49

	176.50

are from articles in 1994 and 1995 issues of Jet Magazine, the Washington
Post, New York Times, Philadelphia Inquirer, and _With the Power of Justice
in Our Eyes_ (Rosenblatt, 1994) and _The War Against Children_ (Breggin, 1994).

Caution: Materials available in the public library may cure some degree of
ignorance.

Shalom,
Richard

Note 271.402  Cindy,

>    It's also scary that the term 'life imprisonment without parole' is
>    basically a meaningless statement, if not an outright lie in many
>    cases.  Until watching the show, I did not realize this was the case. 

Nine state have what are called "truth in sentencing" laws.  If you're
interested it pursuing this, I might suggest contacting your state legislators.
The present climate is certainly ripe for it.

I don't favor putting more people in prisons as an across-the-board solution.
Prisons can also be seen as a measurement of a society's failure.

Richard

    
    Re.53
    
    Thanks Richard.  I may do this.  Will give it some consideration.
    
    Cindy

 ZZ   I don't favor putting more people in prisons as an across-the-board
 ZZ   solution.  Prisons can also be seen as a measurement of a society's 
 ZZ   failure.
    
    I'm trying to understand why it would be seen as a measurement of
    societies failure.  Why is society responsible for the actions of an 
    individual?  
    
    Also, I'm trying to understand how not putting one in prison would give
    a would be criminal a deterrant for committing further crime.
    
    -Jack

    Jack,
    
    some of us believe that all people are created in the image of God and
    when any person  falls short of their potentials it is the fault and
    problem of everyone else.  That each of us is connected one to another,
    and when every person on earth recieves all the love they need to grow
    into a healthy happy citizen of the world, they will so grow.   That is
    why, those who end up in prison represent the failure of each one of
    us.
    
                            Patricia

    <--- And there are those of us who...well, don't buy into that one
    iota.  Those of us who believe that each individual is ultimately
    responsible for their own behavior/actions/etc.
    
    
    -steve

    I believe that each individual is responsible for their own actions
    and I believe Patricia believes that, too.
    
    Let me put it mathematically for you.  At what percentage of the
    population imprisoned would you say something is wrong with society?
    10%?  25%?  50%?  90%?
    
    My guess is that *at some point* everyone here would say that the prison
    population is a symptom of a deeper social failure.
    
    Richard
    

        Lets see, Jesus tells us to love God with all our hearts and to love
    our neighbor as ourselves.  Then the disciples ask, "Lord, who is our
    neighbor?"  Then Jesus told them about the good man who fell among
    thieves.  And when a despicable man comes by to help, the Lord's
    message is to leave the good man alone because he is responsible for
    his actions.

    No, wait something isn't right there. (;

    Or was it when Cain said to the Lord, "Am I my brother's keeper?"  And
    the Lord responded, "good point!"

    No, that's not right either.  

    OH, well.  I guess Steve is right, we are each on our own.

    Jay:
    
    I don't see the connection.  I'm asking what practical ideas you might
    have for deterring crime?  
    
    I support various prison ministries.  I don't understand what you are
    saying.
    
    -Jack

    I think Christians should focus more on promoting character and caring
    than on deterring crime.  Of course, character and caring can land you
    in prison, too, as it did Martin Luther King, Jr., Gandhi, Phil
    Berrigan, Dorothy Day, and thousands of others.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    I am responding to you .55 reply.  You asked why society is responsible
    for the actions of an individual.  I was pointing out that God has
    called us to look after each other.  In that regard, we are responsible
    for each other.
    

    God called the Church to exhort one another unto good deeds.  Jesus
    told us that if we be not welcomed into a community to wipe the dust
    from our feet.
    
    But Jay, since you may have a practical idea on how to implement this,
    I would be interested.  I am very much in agreement as to implementing
    programs to drive youth toward profitable pursuits.  I am more
    interested in how you take an 18 year old who has been in and out of
    prison for a few years, and build his character.  Military schools
    perhaps?
    
    -Jack

    	Just to drop a note of positive news, the Colorado Springs
    	Marriage Encounter will be doing weekends for prisoners and
    	their spouses.  Given that it is in the prisons where privacy
    	is not a feature, some of the mechanics of the weekend will
    	be different, but this is an area in society where spousal
    	interaction is generally neglected, and we feel privileged
    	to be able to minister to them in this small way.

I think this is a hopeful step and will pray for its success.

Leslie

.63

>    I am more
>    interested in how you take an 18 year old who has been in and out of
>    prison for a few years, and build his character.  Military schools
>    perhaps?
    
"One size fits all" solutions are seldom satisfactory, I find.

Richard

 ZZ   "One size fits all" solutions are seldom satisfactory, I find.
    
    That may be...however, no solutions have been offered.  Therefore, the
    status quo will continue.
    
    I started a book last night called, "The Absolute Power of Positive 
    Reinforcement."  In the first chapter, the author was discussing Maslow
    and the heirarchy of needs.  As an illustration of social needs, he
    brought up two interesting occurances.  The first was from "My Fair
    Lady", the cockney flower woman who couldn't speak properly was beaten
    mentally into speaking so eloquently, she passed off as royalty.  At
    the end, professor Higgins and the one he made the wager with basically
    snubbed her and rambled on about the experiment.  She yelled loudly, "I
    WILL NOT BE OVERLOOKED!!!" Hence the need to be recognized.
    
    Tying this in with prison life, there used to be what is now considered
    a beautiful Island in the pacific called Norfolk Island.  In the
    1800's, this used to be a penal colony.  It was considered one of the
    most vicious colonies of that time.  The will of prisoners was
    completely destroyed and punishment ensued for the slightest
    infraction.  
    
    A new prison head came in and reformed the prison.  He used techniques
    that helped build the prisoners self esteem, gave them value, and
    prepared them for post prison life.  The response was overwhelmingly 
    successful but unfortuantely the governors of that region pulled him
    out and hence it went back to "Hell in the Pacific".
    
    I believe steps can be heard to bring positive reinforcement and
    prepare them to become model citizens.  I do however, believe
    incarceration is necessary and we should all be held to the same
    standards regardless of color of whatever.  
    
    -Jack

    .67
    
    And that's all grounded in the teachings of Jesus somewhere I'm sure.
    
    Richard
    

    Now...are you serious or is that tongue in cheek.  One of those times I
    can't distinguish!  Sorry.
    
    -Jakck

re .64



congratulations joe! this must have taken some work and planning to 
pull this off. are you going to be doing entire weekends in prisons?
do you expect to be given more privacy for the prisoners and their
spouses eventually?



andreas.

talking of prisons. i have recently applied to be a volunteer 'prison visitor'.

it's a government sponsored program where regular citizens visit inmates
periodically. the volunteers are trained for this and are also accompagnied
throughout the program by professionals and more experienced volunteers and 
all can exchange experiences and hints in group meetings.

apparently the chances of inmates resocialising successfully increase
dramatically if the inmate has regular contact with normal citizens during
the time in prison. this is why the program was started.

unfortunately (for me) but fortunately (for the prisoners) i didn't get
an opportinity in the autumn reqruitment. the reason: they have too many
applicants. but i am told i'll get in by spring.




andreas.

    <<< Note 176.70 by DECALP::GUTZWILLER "happiness- U want what U have" >>>

>congratulations joe! this must have taken some work and planning to 
>pull this off. are you going to be doing entire weekends in prisons?
    
    	The entire weekend must be done in the prisons.  The spouses
    	that are in prison will not be allowed to leave.  Unlike most
    	traditional weekends, the prison weekend will start with a 
    	a dinner to allow the non-prisoner spouses time to spend with
    	their incarcerated half.
    
>do you expect to be given more privacy for the prisoners and their
>spouses eventually?
    
    	Traditioanl weekends are structured such that all attending 
    	people gather in a conference-room setting to hear a presentation
    	about some aspect of marriage.  THe couples then separate --
    	nem to their private rooms (each couple gets their own room,
    	of course) and women stay in the conference room (or vice versa,
    	from presentation-to-presentation.)  While separated, the attendees
    	have time to reflect on the presentation and now it relates to
    	their own relationship.  They write their thoughts and feelings,
    	and after a brief period of time the spouses get together in their
    	private rooms to share each other's thoughts and writings.  There
    	is not sharing except between spouses themselves, and privacy is
    	an important factor in fostering deep and honest sharing.
    
    	The prison weekend will not afford us the luxury of private rooms
    	for many reasons, security and lack of facilities being two major
    	reasons.  So all the writing and sharing will be done in the 
    	conference room -- which will be quite exposed and monitored by
    	armed guards.  Clearly the dynamics of the weekend will not be 
    	the same as a normal weekend.  Then again, the life/relationship
    	dynamics of the couples are also quite different when one is in
    	prison...  
    
    	The first weekend in the prison will surely be a learning
    	experience for our organization!  We really hope that in spite
    	of the difficult environment, it will be a special experience
    	for these couples.  Often the emotional wounds, loss of trust, 
    	shame and embarrassment of a spouse getting incarcerated leads 
    	to divorce.  We hope that through this weekend some of these
    	couples will be able to work through it and hold on so that 
    	there will still be a relationship to patch once the jailed
    	spouse is released.

    Joe,
    
    I think what you are attempting is wonderful and I wish you the best of
    luck with it.
    
                             Patricia

    	Thanks!
    
    	Send money.  :^)

    Joe,
    
    	Will you and your wife be one of the presenting couples?
    
    Richard
    

    	That's not decided yet, Richard.

joe, can you draw on experience of couples who've done this in prisons
already? 

it sounds like you're up against considerable odds.





andreas.

    .76
    
    Well, I think it's extremely commendable.  Marriage Encounter has had
    a powerful influence on our married life, of which we will celebrate 16
    years tomorrow.
    
    God bless your efforts.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

yup, that's quite a task to tackle, given that the most crucial 
part, as i understand, the exchange between the couple, can't 
happen in private.

if they are short of space in prison why don't they allow you
curtains or spanish walls (the sort you have in hospitals)?
i don't understand it. why set the odds so unnecessarily high.
you'd think that any prison governor would have a vested 
interest in providing the most favourable circumstances.
an inmate who finds the way back to his wife and family is
most likely one criminal less for society.

already you're not dealing with your average couple and with 
the additional uncertainties of the prison enviornment that's 
one big task, to create the atmosphere of quiet and peace that 
the event can succeed. you and your wife have my full admiration 
joe (even for just being willing to do it).

also, i hope you don't set the stakes too high. under the 
circumstances the expected success rate can't be anywhere
near to comparable to a normal weekend retreat. so don't be 
disappointed or discouraged from the first tries. i would think, 
given the circumstances, even if just one couple comes out 
stronger in the first encounters you have achieved more than 
you could reasonably expect. at least to me it looks like the 
odds are considerable.




andreas.

    	re .77
    
    	Yes, we are working with other Marriage Encounter areas that
    	have done this sort of thing.  We may even go to the expence
    	of importing a presenting team couple who already has experience
    	with this.  The other two presenting couples (there are three
    	per weekend) can draw from their knowledge.
    
    	BTW, we are doing this for the county prison.

    	re .79
    
    	I believe that the area we have to work in WILL be separated
    	from the rest of the prison population.  Hopefully it will
    	be large enough that couples will be able to spread apart
    	sufficiently during the private sharing times as to not disturb
    	each other.
    
    	One issue that I feel bad for the couples is that on regular
    	Marriage Encounter weekends the privacy of their own rooms not
    	only affords privacy for sharing, but also for intimate physical
    	contact.  Even hospital curtains most likely cannot provide such
    	privacy -- or at least cannot eliminate associated noise
    	distractions...

.80

>    	BTW, we are doing this for the county prison.

The jail on East Las Vegas (Colorado Springs) or another facility?

Please, remind us as the weekend it is scheduled for draws near so that
we may keep the couples and priest in our prayers.

Richard

    	Richard --
    
    	Isn't the prison in Ca�on City a county prison?
    
    	That's the one we're doing it for.

    Feels funny putting this in this topic, but my wife and I celebrated
    our 14th last week.
    
    Mike

    
    re .84
    
    ...As did my wife and I. Fourteen years on Oct. 10.
    
    Eric

best wishes to the both of you and your spouses!



andreas.

Re: .84 Mike

>    Feels funny putting this in this topic, ...

Marriage and other prisons, eh? :-)

				-- Bob

.83

>    	Isn't the prison in Ca�on City a county prison?

I'm not sure.  No matter.  Thanks.

Richard

>    ...As did my wife and I. Fourteen years on Oct. 10.
    
    Stop it, Eric, you're scaring me!  ;-)  Same # and date as my wife and
    I!!
    
    Mike

    
    re: .89
    
    In my best Macauly Caulkin...
    
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!
    
    :^)
    
    OK. What time?
    
    Eric

    I think it was 3 or 4pm MST (in Phoenix).
    
    Mike

    
    Phew! Our wedding was 10 AM EDT. 
    
    So there... we have nothing in common. :^)
    
    Eric

    So you were married about 2 hours before me (with the differential).
    
    Happy Anniversary, Old Timer!
    
    Mike

	"The more we contribute to educating children, the less likely
they will be to rely on government services.  Education is also a
proven deterrent to crime."

				-- Rocky Scott, President
				   Economic Development Corp.
				   of Colorado Springs

    Without a doubt!  	 agree with that 100%.
    
    I do however feel the Federal Government needs to get out of the school
    business.  They may subsidize but they should not dictate what should
    be dictated locally.
    
    -Jack