Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Perhaps Paul was an equal opportunity source of condemnation ?  Perhaps
    he felt that everything that was not supernatural, and only a narrow
    range of supernatural need apply, was unworthy and despicable. Perhaps
    he simply hated himself or mistrusted his own impulses and was so much
    of a perfectionist that nothing satisfied him ?
    	Any of the above would suggest that Paul might have put a serious
    personal negative slant on all he wrote. Unless, of course, his
    writtings were intended to reach a specific audience in need of a
    specific message - a message not intended for general distribution or
    attribution. In which case its inclusion as Gospel is questionable.

    RE: 0
    
    The thought that Paul condemns things natural, and that "human nature"
    falls into this category reflects an understanding of the "Fall of Man"
    into this crystalized/fleshly/earthly body.  There is no conflict in my
    perception, once you understand that we are not of this world but
    merely in it, as the scriptures say.
    
    The elements are "natural", and the body is made of elements.  Human
    nature, is a term that addresses our tendency to view or perceive life
    with our natural eyes and hears and touch and smell and taste, but the
    spiritual, which Paul uses in opposition to natural, is the unseen
    foundation of things that do appear.  The concept, "man is more an idea
    than an aggregation of elements", as stated by Plato, reflects the
    intent with which "natural" and "spiritual" are best understood. 
    
    Natural vs Unnatural, if unnatural means spiritual, is the appropriate
    idea.  But, some think unnatural represents a deformity or incongruent
    manifestation of things natural...a freak thing.  
    
    Please post the scriptures, and maybe we can look into it more deeper. 
    I don't have a bible at work.
    
    Playtoe

Sounds like we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't.  :-)

Fortunately, God has the grace to undamn us. 

Collis

	One of the things that bothers me about Paul is that he seemed
to be more concerned with the expansion and the reputation of the fledgling
church than spreading the Gospel message.  [Note: This is not to say that
the Gospel message is missing from Paul's correspondence.]

	It seems that a lot of early Christians looked to Paul for guidance
when difficulties arose, which is understandable considering Paul's
relationship to them.  It would be interesting indeed to know the specifics
of the situations Paul addressed in each letter.

	Consider the following passages concerning authority.

	In Romans 13, Paul writes:

        "Let everyone obey the authorities that are over him, for
        there is no authority except from God, and all authority that
        exists is established by God.  As a consequence, the man who
        opposes authority rebels against the ordinance of God;  those
        who resist thus shall draw condemnation down upon themselves. 
    
	However, in Ephesians 6:12, Paul says:

       "For our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,
       against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and
       against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

Peace,
Richard

    RE: 4
    
    What I see is two realms, one on earth, the other in heaven. 
    Apparently, there are some bad elements in heaven.  In one of the
    gospels it is said, "the violent take heaven by force".  Perhaps, Paul
    is trying to organize us in this realm to prepare for the battle to be
    waged in the other realm.  The earth being a spawning ground for spirit
    warriors to this end...Paul seems to imply cosmic ramifications
    throughout his writings.
    
    

    re:.5
    Playtoe,
    	did you somehow fail to see the direct contradiction in the
    writings of Paul taken from two different letters ?  The second most
    directly contradicted the first regarding our obligation to obey
    temporal authority. Directly and specificly. Perhaps Paul was but
    trying to provide customized guidance to those in two disparate
    situations. Or perhaps the "word of God" is self contradictory. Or
    perhaps one or both translations are wrong. Both refer directly to the
    realm on earth.
    	BTW: if "the violent take heaven by force", what will become of
    those who got there by virtue of their love ?  How can Heaven be taken
    lest God be overthrown ?  Perhaps you could expand a little on this
    quote to shed a little light on what was really intended.