| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 152.1 | It gets caught in the sheets ... | WMOIS::REINKE | Hello, I'm the Dr! | Mon Jan 21 1991 14:44 | 5 |
| Who was it whose counsel on a disciple's wedding night was ...
"Don't take your Bible to bed with you."
DR
|
| 152.2 | | XLIB::JACKSON | Collis Jackson | Mon Jan 21 1991 15:28 | 6 |
| There is a little of wisdom in that story and advice.
What a difference to worship God because of who *He* is, not because
of who *we* are or wish to be.
Collis
|
| 152.3 | What's the treatment for religious addiction? | CARTUN::BERGGREN | Caretaker of Wonder | Mon Jan 21 1991 16:44 | 23 |
| Ro,
I agree with Bradshaw intellectually and from personal experience.
For some time I have been planning to write an article/journal entry
entitled something like "The Addiction of Spirituality".
In hindsight, I would say several years ago I developed an addiction
to spirituality, to The Light, with symptoms similar to what Bradshaw
describes. And then oneday I "hit the skids." I pretty much dropped
it all and began to see how I was using it as a quick fix to the pain
in my life which was largely a product of dysfunctional behavior
patterns. I was using it primarily as a "self-image-enhancer".
I was worshipping first and foremost its potential restorative powers,
and secondly or probably thirdly, worshipping God. But I understand
it now as an experience of growth and development that is far more
common to people, in general, than I once had thought. And as Bradshaw
implies, I feel it is much more insidious to detect and therefore
treat than other addictions.
Thanks for an excellent article. It's very timely, imho.
Karen
|
| 152.4 | Detection Depends on Point of View | WMOIS::REINKE | Hello, I'm the Dr! | Mon Jan 21 1991 17:02 | 4 |
| It might be hard to detect in ones self, but it's not hard to spot in
others. Over-zealous religious folks give me the willies.
DR
|
| 152.5 | | CARTUN::BERGGREN | Caretaker of Wonder | Mon Jan 21 1991 17:13 | 5 |
| I agree DR (.4) with a slight caveat: Over-zealousness is one, but
not necessarily the exclusive or primary "symptom" displayed by
religious/spiritual addicts.
Karen
|
| 152.6 | My observations differ slightly | LJOHUB::NSMITH | Passionate committment/reasoned faith | Mon Jan 21 1991 20:12 | 40 |
| Interesting article. I agree in part, but he sounds rather judgmental
of those who get caught up in it.
My own "addiction" occurred during my teenage years. I think of it
more as obsessive/compulsive behavior, but perhaps that is the same
thing. For me:
- Ritual prayers, etc., were necessary to alleviate my sense of guilt
and enable me to get through the day. The article almost makes
the mood-altering aspect sound like a party, when, for me, it was
a means of coping and emotional survival.
- I was not so conscious of a "feeling of righteousness, the feeling of
being pure and blessed" as of being a worthless sinner loved by God
in spite of myself. (I don't recall feeling that God's righteousness
had somehow "rubbed off" on me!)
- The coercive aspect, in my opinion, is based on the feeling that if
others don't need my particular belief or "religious addiction," then
their ability to get along nicely without it threatens it for me by
calling it into question. It was my *security blanket* and I feared
for the present and furture happiness of anyone who did not have the
same security blanket!
Education and emotional growth enabled me to give up the more neurotic
aspects of my faith when I was in college. I look kindly on my
teen-aged needs, however -- if it had not been for my religious
"addiction" I might well have turned to drugs, promiscuous sex, or
alcoholism!! At least the religious addiction had no lasting harmful
effects -- and, in fact, caused me to learn a lot of Scripture!
Understanding that God loves me because He created me and called His
creation good and that God does not condemn me for my sins ("Who
condemns thee? Neither do I condemn thee -- go and sin no more") and
that God gives me the freedom to live my life joyfully -- well, these
views are certainly an "about-face" from what I used to believe.
But the Person of God, my Friend and Companion is the same!
Nancy
|
| 152.7 | | DEBNT::MEYER | Dave Meyer | Mon Jan 21 1991 20:48 | 18 |
| Ro,
thanks for inputing that long essay. I don't know if I liked it
more because it suggested that certain people are overly religious
(though I must admit that I don't really know any like that PERSONALLY)
or because it seems, at the end, to support my life-view.
Come to think of it, there may be a few that I know who are
"problem religious", but they are not zealots in the usual sense. My
reaction to zealots is to avoid them, thus I would never really get to
know them.
Nancy, perhaps you are being a little defensive/sensitive in
calling it "judgemental"? It did not say "these people are bad", but
"this is a problem and it can be bad". Or at least limiting. The people
with the problem were having their lives impoverished, not enriched, by
their religious experience. (Lives, not bank accounts) Saying that they
need help is not the same as saying they are bad, or wrong, any more
than saying that a smoker needs help. (who, me ? prejudiced ?) OK,
maybe a LITTLE judgemental.
|
| 152.8 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Hair peace | Mon Jan 21 1991 23:46 | 16 |
| There is an element that can be found in every religion which is
termed by sociologists as "ecstacy;" which means "to be transported."
It is called Nirvana by Eastern religions. But similar experiences have
also been reported by a number of Christians, particularly mystics. In
his book, _The Varieties of Religious Experience_, Williams James describes
some who become incapable of carrying out routine tasks and functions because
they are so filled with spiritual ecstacy. Love and adoration becomes
something of an intoxicant, a religious "high."
I propose that to the degree that religion is used as an escape response, or
used to dull the senses, religion might be considered an addiction; something
akin to the addictive use of TV (only not quite as passive /;-}).
Peace,
Richard
|
| 152.9 | Relgious Behavior, Not Necessarily Faith | PCCAD1::RICHARDJ | Bluegrass,Music Aged to Perfection | Tue Jan 22 1991 08:14 | 25 |
| Well, I think Bradshaw's experience with religion, although others may
experience similar, is his experience and is not a good standard to
judge religious experiences of others from.
First, he mentions having a conversion, but doesn't tell us what that
conversion was about. Did God talk to Him, or was his conversion
a result of his own intellectual decision ? For many religious people,
including my own, conversion was the result of an experience with the
personal being of Jesus Christ.
I've read Bradshaw's book, "The Family", and I've watched him on T.V.
Much of what he says is true, about our shame based identity of
ourselves, but I think he leans to heavily on this as being the reason
for our own failures. It's almost like the new age concept that sin
doesn't exist, only his reasoning is that it exist, but it isn't your
fault, it was your parents fault and their sins where their parents
fault. This to me is what original sin is all about, but once we are
baptized and come into the age of reason, we alone are responsible for
our sins. Of course this is just my own opinion for whatever it's
worth. -:)
Peace
Jim
|
| 152.10 | Further thoughts | WMOIS::REINKE | Hello, I'm the Dr! | Tue Jan 22 1991 09:53 | 13 |
| As I thought about this string last night, it occurred to me that as
addictive behavior goes, this seems particularly benign. For Karen and
Nancy, did you observe any "withdrawal symptoms" upon leaving this
phase of your lives?
Also, Nancy mentions tremendous guilt (perhaps not derived from this
life) and Karen echoes some of Bradshaw's prior experiences. Does
anyone know of St. Francis's or St. Augustine's early experiences after
conversion? Can this phenomenon be more easily classified as a simple
bounce-back -- that which inevitably follows a particular extreme in
one direction?
DR
|
| 152.11 | Apples And Oranges | PCCAD1::RICHARDJ | Bluegrass,Music Aged to Perfection | Tue Jan 22 1991 11:25 | 17 |
| RE-1
Well, St. Francis and Agustine never had a feeling of self righteousness
after their conversion as Bradshaw did. Their conversion caused
humility in themselves rather than self righteous elation. They also
didn't feel guilt, but rather forgiveness. To me, the feeling of guilt
is only there when you don't feel forgiven.
Like I said before, Bradshaw's experience was his own, and it cannot
be compared to all others, especially St. Francis and St. Agustine.
I think it is his error to do so,- if that is in fact what he is doing?
Religious addiction is when you seek to be consoled rather than to
console which is the opposite of what St. Francis was seeking when
he wrote his prayer.
Peace
Jim
|
| 152.12 | | CARTUN::BERGGREN | Caretaker of Wonder | Tue Jan 22 1991 12:41 | 19 |
| Hi Dr,
re .10
Did I experience any "withdrawal symptoms" upon leaving that phase of
my life? Hmmm, perhaps. I did experience many feelings, (anger,
frustration, disorientation) that I would say could be associated with
withdrawal...but I would also clarify it as withdrawal from my previous
"expectations" the spiritual path was going to offer me -- not the
path itself.
As you know, I did re-focus on spiritual awareness. It happened a
couple of years later rather gradually and spontaneously after I had
initiated and completed certain phases of self-work that needed to be
done all along. I've returned with a deeper understanding of my
relationship with God, and as a result, a growing awareness of the
promises and pitfalls of the spiritual path.
Karen
|
| 152.13 | Well, you asked for it! | LJOHUB::NSMITH | Passionate committment/reasoned faith | Tue Jan 22 1991 20:57 | 60 |
|
Withdrawal symptoms? No, none that I know of -- not sure what you
mean. Basically this is what happened: I wanted to go to a very
conservative religious college, but it cost too much, and my liberal
youth director saw to it that I got into a more liberal religious
college. My first year or two I was unhappy there. I said
I would rather be "prayed for" at the conservative school for being too
liberal for them than be "laughed at" at the liberal school for being
too conservative for them!
Then, at some point -- I don't know why, other than gradually maturing,
etc. -- I decided that it was ok for me to believe the way I did and it
didn't matter what others thought. As soon as my defensiveness dropped
away, I became open to more liberal points of view!
Contrary to "withdrawal symptoms" I was amazed and in awe of the sense
of relief (acceptance) and the greater freedom and joy. (At least
that's the way I remember it these many years later -- but reaching
that point of view probably happened over time!)
I really suspect that my experience is not dissimilar to the emotional
upheavals and growth of many -- by no means all -- adolescents, except
that religion was my focus.
On the other hand:
>Also, Nancy mentions tremendous guilt (perhaps not derived from this
>life)
Huh? Since I don't believe in reincarnation, I do not attribute my
guilt to any previous life. I believe it originated as follows: At
the age of 12 months, on Christmas morning, I got out of my playpen
(which was broken somehow) and fell against the heating stove,
receiving 1st, 2nd, and 3rd-degree burns on my hands, requiring
numerous operations and skin grafts over the years. I was an only
child, and I believe I picked up on my mother's guilt feelings (partly
her own personality and greatly, I'm sure, due to my accident) and
added some guilt/sense-of-responsibility of my own, namely: *I*
went exploring outside the playpen, hurt myself, caused all this
trouble and grief to my parents, etc., etc. Add to all of this the
fact that at about age 15 months I was sent to a hospital -- without
my parents -- and promptly and abruptly weaned from the bottle --
something no respectable hospital would *ever* do today!
Well, all that happened over 50 years ago, and if a period of a few
years of religious addiction is the worst psychological result, I
can sure live with that! (Actually it *wasn't* the "worst" -- there
was other compulsive behavior during my elementary years -- getting up
numerous times at night to be sure the gas water heater was turned off
and the doors were locked. *That* was much worse -- and turning to
religion eased it somewhat!)
Don't why I'm sharing all this very personal stuff here. But you asked
-- soft of, anyway!
I am sympathetic to the child I was and to the obsessively-religious
adolescent I used to be. I think that's why I often *defend* people
who seem to be like I used to be...
Nancy
|
| 152.14 | May be hazardous to your marriage | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | El Gallo de Paz | Mon Jul 01 1991 16:17 | 12 |
| On her program Thursday, 6/27, Sally Jesse Raphael, TV talk hostess,
interviewed three couples who had all experienced marital difficulties
resulting from one partner's (the husband in the case of each couple on
this particular program) religious zealousness.
According to the author of the book, _Toxic Faith_, who was also
on the show, this syndrome manifests itself in one marriage partner's time being
swallowed up by fellowship activities, meetings, errands for church members,
and a corresponding decrease in communication and involvement with the spouse.
Peace,
Richard
|
| 152.15 | beware of trial by media | ILLUSN::SORNSON | Are all your pets called 'Eric'? | Mon Jul 01 1991 16:57 | 44 |
| re .14 (CSC32::J_CHRISTIE)
> On her program Thursday, 6/27, Sally Jesse Raphael, TV talk hostess,
>interviewed three couples who had all experienced marital difficulties
>resulting from one partner's (the husband in the case of each couple on
>this particular program) religious zealousness.
>
> According to the author of the book, _Toxic Faith_, who was also
>on the show, this syndrome manifests itself in one marriage partner's time bein
>swallowed up by fellowship activities, meetings, errands for church members,
>and a corresponding decrease in communication and involvement with the spouse.
Not that this applies in all cases, but, to be fair, one has to
consider that it takes two to make a marriage work, but only one to
make it fail, and when religion is involved, sometimes it's the failure
of the 'unbelieving spouse' to see things as the 'believing spouse'
does -- or at least to respect the reasonable (though different) views
of the 'believing spouse' -- that causes the problems. Because
marriage is often involved, the separation between religious
differences and personal differences is often blurred, and thus purely
personal matters are sometimes used to color the picture differently
than it really appears.
The ex-wife of someone in my congregation (which is of Jehovah's
Witnesses, for those of you who don't know me) left our religion about
the same time that she left her husband, and became bitterly opposed to
both her husband and her former religion. She also appeared on a talk
show about 'toxic faith' to air her complaints (about her husband and
his allegedly poisonous religion, which she, at one-time, espoused just
as vocally); and from what I hear, she did her best to hatchet both.
But since I, personally, am familiar with the basic elements of her
situation, I know that in her case, her claims, where they aren't
strictly personal, are greatly exagerated or distorted versions of the
truth -- where they aren't blatantly false -- about how we practice our
faith.
There's a Bible tenet which says that a person should not be
convicted on the testimony of less than two people, and in modern
countries it's a rule to at least let the defendant have a fair
opportunity to present his side of the story. Talk shows and 'tell
all' books rarely, if ever, present the other side of the story, since
the other side usually doesn't have the same 'tabloid' sort of appeal.
-mark.
|
| 152.16 | blaming the effect for the cause? | CVG::THOMPSON | Semper Gumby | Mon Jul 01 1991 17:10 | 8 |
| Almost any outside involvement can get in the way of a communication
between a couple. Work, for one. That's a very common one. I don't
think that the religion is really at fault as often as it's blamed.
It's a matter of two people growing apart and one filling the void
with religion as often as not. The lack of communication is the
problem not what is filling the time.
Alfred
|
| 152.17 | | BCSE::SUEIZZ::GENTILE | Kama, the Urban Shaman | Thu Dec 12 1991 13:02 | 23 |
| I just entered this notes conference for the first time yesterday and I can
really relate to this topic. If there ever was a case of religious
addiction, my parents are it. They are and have been always addicted to the
Catholic church. They spend most of their time going to prayer meetings,
rosaries, shrines, masses, etc... It occupies most of their time. And it it
is mood alteration. They use it rather than facing their shame. They feel
that we are "not good enough" to deserve things. They were always told by
their parents that they did everything wrong and that they were no good. So
rather then face it all like I have done they turn to their addiction. The
whole house is filled with religious pamphlets and that's all they talk
about it.
They said that they were religious their whole life and doing things
the "only right way" and at the same time they were hitting me with pieces
of 2 by 4's and hitting me with the belt and constantly emotionally abusing
me. I don't understand it.
I just know that it wasn't going to be the life for me. I grew up
with all this. I came to Nashua 3 years ago and immedietly went to the
Catholic church and tried hard to make all the church elders see how holy
and good I was by signing up for everything in sight and spending all of my
free time down there.
I don't buy into this crap anymore. I worked on myself thru 12-step
programs, grew to love myself and God and shed many of my addictions. I now
have a great spirtual connection to God thru my Native American prata
|
| 152.18 | When God becomes a drug | AKOCOA::FLANAGAN | waiting for the snow | Tue Jan 05 1993 14:12 | 23 |
| I found this very thought prevocing article that I wanted to share and discuss
"When God Becomes A Drug" By Father Leo Booth.
About the Author.
Father Leo Booth: Author, lecturer, Episcopal priest and recovering
alcoholic, Leo Booth has recently turned his energy towards dragging yet
another dysfunctional secret out of society's closet-religious addiction.
He should know, "I was a victim, not only of religious abuse but also of
religious addiction," Booth states.
Already well known to the recovering community as Father Leo, for his
experience and wisdom on recovering from substance abuse, he has brought a new
level of healing to his flock by addrssing this controversial topic in his
latest book, When God Becomes a Drug: Breaking the Chains of Religious
Addiction and Abuse.
The article follows
|
| 152.19 | | AKOCOA::FLANAGAN | waiting for the snow | Tue Jan 05 1993 14:13 | 51 |
| When God Becomes A drug Part 1.
"Religious Addiction" is not being talked about. If you talk abut sexual
addiction as being the hidden addiction, I believe religious addiction is the
hidden hidden addiction. Many of us were brought up with the idea that whend
it comes to religion, you don't really talk abut it or criticize it, because
if you criticize religion or some of the abuses of the church or even priests
and ministers-indirectly you're criticizing God. Nobody wants to appear to be
criticizing God.
So many people in the 12-Step recovery programs really have a problem with the
God bit. One of the reasons why I wrote the book was that I was hearing from
recovering people their problems not only with God but with their church...
Rigid, shaming, condemning, judgmental messages-those messages kept people not
only from church but also from God. It was my experience working as a
therapist and mixing with recovering people that created the background to the
book.
Then when I was listening to tehm, guess who I heard? I heard me. And I
reflected that I too was a victim, not only of religious abuse but also of
religious addiction. U used the church for a fix. I used religion and ritual
too as a means of excape.
Religious addiction is when you use religion as a fix; when you use religion
to excape from responsibilities. If you keep waiting for the miracle to
happen from "out there" to change you life, religon becomes the fix, the means
of the escape.
Religious addiction is progressive. Most people who are religiously addicted
have already been religiously abused. They already have low self-esteem, low
self-worth. Many of them don't like themselves. Many have been told by their
parents not to like themselves. And then somebody says, "There's a God up in
heaven who loves you. Jesus is just waiting to embrace you." Originally
people out ot their lonliness and shame start to move toward Jesus.
What happens then is they start doing more things that progress into
addiction. They start reading the Bible, then they start quoting the Bibe,
then stey start emphasizing texts that demonstrate their exclusivity. "If you
don't believe what we believe then I'm afraid you're going to hell becasue the
Bible says so. Some of them get into ritual, black and white thinking,
excessive judgmentalism.
The fundamentalists will say, "we believe in the literal word of God." No,
they don't! None of them do
It's ludicrous, for example , to expet St Paul to understand alcoholism. So
when he says all the drunkards are going to hell, that's because he had no
understanding of alcoholism, any more than he had an understanding of
homsexuality. Two thousand years agod, St. Paul also thoust the world was
flat. He thought slaves should be obedient to theri masters. To follow
exactly what St Paul said would be a menu for suicide.
|
| 152.20 | | AKOCOA::FLANAGAN | waiting for the snow | Tue Jan 05 1993 14:13 | 48 |
| "When God becomes a Drug" part 2.
I am not saying that the Bible is not inspired. I believe that it is very
inspirational. But I think if you take it as a literal textbook, a
how-to-book for every aspect of your life, that's an abuse of the Bible.
I think that religion is very often man-made. I believe that spirituality is
God-given. Spirituality is a jouney within ourselves. Religion is a
manifestation of our actions toward othe people. Spirituality emphasizes what
you and I have in common. Religon often emphasizes what separates us. I'm a
Jew, you're a Musim. Spirituality also works through art, theater, dance.
But religon confines itself to holy books and rituals. One's an organization.
the other is free-flowing spirit.
Some people say "religion caused a lot of wars. I say "Caused? is causing in
the present!"
I think there's a danger with the teaching of original sin, because it keeps
emphasizing our weaknesses, our unworthiness, the idea that we are born bad.
And if you have an unbalanced emphasis upon our badness, then I believe you
create people of low self-esteem and low self-worth.
What you need to do is emphaize the fact that we are not God; we are
imperfect. We all make mistakes, but we are not a mistake. The reason that
we're not a mistake is that we are all children of God. All with the ability
to create, with the ability to do wonderful things.
And that's the message of the 12-step program. Not only that man is good, but
that man is capable of change.
When you talkabout discovering God as you understand God, that means that
you're involved in the relationship you have with God. God is going to be
your friend, your lover, not just the person who's condemning you.
You don't need to be afraid of God. God is a positive, loving, creative
source of life. We are in a relationship with God when we are positive, when
we are loving. God is the Creator. When we are creative, we are in a
relationship with God; we are in tune with God.
I think that for many people the agnostic position is the spiritually honest
position. To say I don't know. You need to believe in a Higher Power that
you can understand. That may be a God in the sky, a Roman Catholic God or
Episcopal God, or it may be a God who is very much at work in or through human
beings. Your perception of God is very lmuch based on your understanding of
creation. It may not be a God in the sky. There are many people who are able
to discover God in their relationship with creation, but who never, never have
an understanding of God as presented in St. Paul's Cathedral
|
| 152.21 | | AKOCOA::FLANAGAN | waiting for the snow | Tue Jan 05 1993 14:32 | 27 |
| "When God becomes a Drug" part 3
The new age movement concerns me because sometimes I think that people have
transferred their crucifixes to crystals. They're expecting the crystals to
do magic. Basically you've got the same scope of stuff in new age as you have
in religion. You've got people who are into the rituals, the instuments of
spirituality. They use the new age clapptrap to hide behind, instead of
taking responsibility for their lives. Just like people use religious
clap-trap. But you've also got a healthy group of new age people who are
talking about the need for us to be involved in choices, in our healing, in
our lives.
Any system that is created by imperfect people is bound to be imperfect. And
I think that there's a sick part of us that wants always to create
dGod(perfection) on earth. That's when you get into becoming a slave to the
thing you've created. Eventually you create a monster for yourself and the
monster ends up destroying you. You have to be very careful with systems,
philosophical systems, recovery systems-that you don't create for yourself
monsters by placing expectations on them that they can never fulfill.
I'll give you a little story. A child comes home to her mother and says that
she's scared; there are ghosts out there. And the mother gives her a little
melalion and says. "if you wear this, it will keep the ghosts away. Unhelathy
religion gives you a medallion. Healthy religion tells you there are no
ghosts.
What I'm trying to do is get rid of the ghosts
|
| 152.22 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Peace Warrior | Thu Jan 07 1993 15:47 | 14 |
| I've never experienced a religious addiction - at least, I don't think so.
I suspect that a former participant, Mikie Morgan, might have categorized a
part of his past as under a religious addiction.
I saw a man interviewed by Sally Jessy Raphael whom I'd classify as addicted.
He wore an oversized tie clasp with the name "Jesus" written in cursive with
rhinestones. Everything he said was either a religious cliche or a Bible
verse or a combination thereof. His wife said he was like that at home,
that he had a different evangelististic and church activity every night
of the week, all day Sunday and 7 out of 8 Saturdays.
Richard
|