Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Article          549
From: [email protected] (ROB STEIN, UPI Science Editor)
Newsgroups: clari.tw.science,clari.news.religion,clari.news.top
Subject: 'Near-death experiences' probed
Date: 9 Nov 90 00:04:42 GMT
 
 
	WASHINGTON (UPI) -- A study of people who underwent ``near-death
experiences'' suggests many of the events are psychological, but the
findings also could be used to argue some really have glimpsed an
afterlife, researchers said Thursday.
	On one hand, the study published in the British medical journal The
Lancet found many people who said they had near-death experiences
actually were never really in danger of dying.
	But the study also found most of those who did almost die reported
increased mental power at a time when their brain function would be
expected to have been diminished, providing support for those who
believe the events may be ``transcendental,'' the researchers said.
	While the study neither proves or disproves proposed explanations of
such experiences, the findings provide further support for the existence
of the events and the need for more study, the researchers said.
	``There is something very interesting going on here,'' said Justine
Owens, an assistant research professor at the University of Virginia in
Charlottesville, who led the analysis.
	John Sappington, a psychology professor at Augusta College in
Augusta, Ga., said the study is ``a clue to the puzzle'' of such
phenomena.
	``The public wants to know, 'Is there an afterlife or is there not?
Is there a soul or is there not?' I'm afraid there are certain questions
science can't answer fully,'' he said.
	Near-death experiences have been reported ``at least since the time
of Plato'' and have been described increasingly in modern times as
medical advances allow more people to survive close encounters with
death, the researchers said.
	The experiences include a variety of sensations, such as moving down
a long tunnel, sensing a strong light, leaving the body, feeling strong
emotions, reliving past memories and seeming to think and perceive much
more clearly.
	``Some commentators have claimed that these reports provide a glimpse
of the existence awaiting us after death, whereas others have suggested
that the experiences are the result of physiological or pharmacological
states accompanying the process of dying,'' Owens and her colleagues
wrote.
	Regardless, psychologists are especially interested in the phenomenon
because the experiences appear to have a powerful beneficial effect on
patients, giving most a much better outlook on their lives, Owens said.
	To investigate the reports, the researchers studied 58 patients who
reported having near-death experiences by examining their medical
records, interviewing them and having them complete written
questionaires.
	Medical records showed only 28 of the patients actually were near
death and ``would have died without medical intervention.'' The
remaining 30 patients ``were not in danger of dying although most of
them thought they were.''
	However, patients from both groups reported having ``closely similar
experiences,'' bolstering the view that such events stem from
psychological, not physical or transcendental factors, the researchers
said.
	Nearly equal numbers of patients from both groups, for example, said
they felt like they had left their bodies and were seeing it from above
and relived memories from earlier in their lives.
	But many more of the patients who had actually been near death -- 88
percent -- reported having experienced increased mental powers and
perceptions, compared to only 50 percent of the not near-death group.
	In addition, 21 of the 28 patients who had been near death -- 75
percent -- reported experiencing enhanced light, compared to only 12 of
the 30 -- or 40 percent -- who had not been near death, the researchers
said.
	The widely reported sense of being in a tunnel, was actually
relatively rare, the researchers said. Only 12 of the patients who had
been near death and nine who had not been near death had such an
experience.
	The Virginia team said its results do not refute any of the three
principal interpretations of near-death experiences -- transcendental,
physical and psychological. Instead, the findings ``offer, in different
ways, some support for each of them,'' the researchers said.

Paul,

	I'll attend your questions here.

	My recollection of the details of my own near death experience
has faded somewhat over the years.

	Knowing I was dying, the doctor tried something very radical at
the time: a megadose of antibiotics.  There was a risk that the injection
would kill me, but at that point, it didn't matter.

	As I said before, I recall a benign light bidding me towards it.
I recall a sense of profound well-being.  I think I remember being able
to walk.  I saw no other human beings.  I didn't see Jesus.

	I'll share with you what *did* seem utterly weird to me after
that experience though.  The portrayal of death as The Grim Reaper; a
terrifyingly heartless skeleton in a hooded robe wielding a sickle.  Such
an image has seemed so contrary and diabolical to me.

	I remember feeling a sense of disappointment upon my return to
consciousness.

Peace,
Richard

    This is my first time with the network and I'm very greatful to have
    found it.  Hello and peace to all!
    
    I've very recently lost my mother (as well as my best friend).  I've
    happened to pick up a book of hers called Life After Life which
    basically is a collection and study of cases of these near death
    experiences.....Although not totally scientific, which the author is
    very upfront about, it is quite intesting.  If anyone's interested the 
    authors last name is Moody and the book's title is Life After Life.
    
    Glad I found You!  A.Z.
    

    Over the years I have followed the research of experiences various 
    people have had after being declared clinically dead, which are 
    referred to as "Near Death Experiences."  Moody documented much of 
    this research in a few books, most notably _Life After Life_.
    
    The people who have been subjects of this research now number in the 
    thousands, and they represent quite a wide variety of people from 
    various religious and non-religious backgrounds.  Some are active 
    church goers, others are agnostics and atheists.
    
    One of the experiences commonly reported in the NDE is being greeted 
    and embraced by a "light".  A light that seems to exude compassion 
    and unconditional, (non-judgemental) love.  Some people refered to 
    this presence as Jesus, others have called it God, others have said 
    it feels to be their higher self or soul.
    
    The one thing that strikes me the most is that an exceptionally high 
    percentage of these cases (I think over 90%) report a common aspect 
    in a near death experience:  A review of their entire life from birth 
    to death, and most importantly of NOT BEING JUDGED one way or the 
    other by another being, whether it be God or Jesus Christ, *no matter 
    what they've done in their lives.*
    
    Subjects of this research commonly report that this review is done by 
    themselves, sometimes in the company of a being generally described 
    as a helper or guide.  This helper may be someone they recognize, or 
    it may not be.  Some of these people also report being presented with 
    a choice as to whether or not they wish to return to the physical 
    world or stay in the spirit world.
    
    But in very few cases (none that I recall in fact), do people, 
    *regardless of religious or non-religious persuasion*, report being 
    judged harshly as a result of what they've done in their lives.
    
    Have you ever had a near death experience, or do you know anyone who 
    has?  What was it like?  How did it change your/their life?
    
    Are you familiar with any of the research cited above;  and if so, 
    what are your comments/theories?
    
    What are the implications of the experience of *not* being judged in 
    these experiences, versus what Christian theology would have us 
    believe - that we will receive judgement upon death?
    
    Thoughts/opinions?
    
    Thanks very much,
    
    Karen
    

    I read a book on this subject a long time after I read Moody's
    book. Unfortunately, I can no longer remember the name of either
    the book or the author. I'm hoping it will come back to me if I
    write about it here, and if it does I will include it later.
    
    The author was a doctor who had an NDE immediately before entering
    medical school. His experience was very interesting in itself,
    but what I found most interesting was that he eventually forgot about
    it and went on to live a conventional life. It was only when he worked
    with a very spiritual person (a person who seemed to live the
    principles of Christianity in his everyday life) that he was 
    reminded of his NDE experience. It was at this point that he
    decided to write the book. I think it was in the introduction to
    his book that I read that it was this book that inspired Moody
    to write his book. This man's experience is apparently the first
    recorded NDE experience.
    
    Eileen

    Didn't an association just recently issue a report on this ? It 
    was either the American Medical, or Psychiatric Assoc. After
    the studies they conducted, they found no evidence of out of body
    experiences as being true. They said something to the effect that
    large amounts of adrenalin most likely caused the experience.

     Of course there was plenty  of experts who did not agree with them
    either.

    Peace
    Jim

    Thanks for the reference to the book Eileen.  (It's nice to see you here
    by the way!)  If you come across the title or author in the future, 
    please let me know as I'd love to pick it up.
    
    Jim,
    
    I did not see the report you mention.  Needless to say the NDE is a
    phenomenon that defies many rational explanations.  I myself have
    doubts that NDE's can be easily dismissed as not being real and merely 
    a result of a large rush of adrenalin.  If so, then how could they 
    then explain that many people who've experienced NDE's have also been 
    able to relate what was going on in their immediate surroundings right 
    before and/or right after they "died".  Many have been able to describe, 
    with exceptionally accurate detail, the efforts of the medical team to 
    revive them for example...after being declared clinically dead...
    
    Just fascinating things to consider about human beings and the spirit 
    that dwells within us...and us within It.
    
    Karen
    
    p.s.  Thanks for the pointer Mike! :-) I moved the notes accordingly.

    I stand corrected.  The report I read was the same one Mike pointed
    to in 108.1.

    Either way, I don't buy the report. 

     I do believe the NDE's that I have read about.

    Peace
    Jim

    Hello,
    
     Here are a couple of other books on NDE's:
           
         Title                      Author              Copyright 
         
    The Light Beyond		Raymond A. Moody 	Sep 1989   
    Closer to the Light 	Melvin Morse		1990      
    
    I haven't finished reading these yet, but one of my concerns
    has to do with a feeling expressed of not being judged. The
    Bible says that we are all to be judged. Now, some may tend
    to place more credence to the reported NDE's than the Bible.
    Christians should be aware, and point out that the Judgement
    is to take place at some time in the future, and not necessarily
    at the time of death. So, perhaps, at the time of death, everyone
    goes to Heaven (to be absent from the body is to be present
    with the Lord). Then after the Judgement, those who are not saved
    are "separated". Hell being separated from the Lord after knowing
    His love. I'd really like to hear CRI's comments on this subject.
    
    				Mel Andres

    re:  .9  Absence of judgement
    
    I believe your interpretation misses the mark.  Reports of NDEs have it
    that every detail of the life just lived is viewed in utter honesty, in
    the presence of ONE who loves us in spite of and because of all the
    hope and horror we have lived.  
    
    I believe this is the fundamental difference between me and those who
    would emphasize the judgement above all else.  In John, Jesus describes
    clearly his twin roles as Son of Man and Son of God.  As Son of Man, He
    is Judge; as Son of God, He is Love.
    
    DR

    re: .10
    
    Yes, I do understand what the NDE experience describes, but my
    question is should we determine from these, that it is the "final"
    experience? It would seem to me, that what they have observed is
    only the begining of eternity. The question I raise, is how is the
    NDE justified or compared to scripture from the fundamentalist
    point of view? I listen to a lot of Christian radio, and haven't
    ever heard this topic brought up. If I can get through to CRI's
    "Bible Answer Man" program, the next time they have an open forum,
    I'll ask. The Bible says to test all things by the scriptures. But,
    I try to keep an open mind. Another question, some cults, (or occult)
    organizations teach astral projection, or out of body experience.
    How do what they claim, compare to the NDE? What I like about one
    of the books I mentioned, is that Melvin Morse's "Closer to the
    Light" deals exclusively with children's NDE's. Even thougth they
    are less likely to have preconcieved notions, all their NDE's
    still have strikingly similar patterns.
    
    				Mel

    Mel,
    
    You raise some very interesting questions.  Though I spontaneously 
    had an experience years ago commonly referred to as an out-of-body
    experience, or astral projection, I've never had an NDE, so what I'm
    going to say is just an intuitive sense I have about your questions.
    
    I don't feel that NDE's are the "final" experience, like you, I sense
    they are only "the beginning of eternity," or actually the beginning of
    'something else'.  What that something else is, I cannot say.  Though 
    I guess we could say the same thing about this very moment - it is a 
    glimpse of eternity, the beginning of something else...if our eyes and
    hearts see it as such.
    
    I'd also be very interested in hearing anything the Bible has to say 
    about such experiences.  Or perhaps if I'm readin you correctly, there's 
    little if anything said about them.  If not, then what?  How does a 
    Christian reconcile such an experience that the Bible does not address?  
    Ignore it, or perhaps toss it into a bucket called "satan's work"?  
               
    wondering out loud,
    
    Karen

    There are, of course, instances of people raised from the dead that are
    recorded in the Bible.  Elisha and the Shumanite woman's child (do I
    have that right?), Jesus and Jairus's daughter (who walked around and
    needed food), Jesus and Peter's Mother-in-law (who got up and served?),
    and most celebrated, Jesus and Lazarus (who should have stank but
    didn't).  Jesus's resurrection, I believe, is not the same kind of
    experience.
    
    It was enough, it seems, for those people to have returned; the
    ancients did not record their experiences.  Jesus's story of Dives and
    (interestingly) Lazarus is illustrative.  You will recall that Dives,
    burning in hell, begged to be allowed to return to his family, to tell
    them what was in store if they did not repent.  Jesus said that they
    had the scriptures; if they didn't believe them, why should they
    believe someone come back from the dead?
    
    In the 20th century, very few of us "have" the scriptures in the sense
    that they are so real and overwhelming to our fundamentalist brethren. 
    As T. S. Eliot has written, we have replaced our god with no god, and
    THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE.  Moreover, we are not satisfied with
    just the fact of return as the ancients were.  Our inquiring minds,
    our bane and blessing, must know more.  And many of those who have
    returned must tell their stories.
    
    Thus, if you have the scriptures, perhaps you do not need the accounts
    of the NDEs.  But if God granted you your own NDE, would you reject it
    as unscriptural, or accept it as a glorious gift from the ONE who has
    never stopped giving?
    
    DR

    I had a near death experience, matter of fact 2, and one vision, the
    First one was: when I was having problems with my husband, and I was
    very depressed, well we lived near the ocean, and I got in the car and
    drove to it, and just left the car running and started to walk, into
    the water(I don't know how to swim) and I was up to the waist in the
    water, when I seen a person walking on the water, pusing me back, as
    you can see I am here.
    2 I was hospitalized after a stomac surgery, and I was in intensive
    care, and there was an older man they brought in, I heard the doctor
    say that he was not going to make the night, well I rested then they
    brought a man that had been in a car accident, this man was in pain and
    screeming, and the nurses had to tie this man down, well about 1 I
    heard this Gasp, from the old man's bed and looked over to see a smoke
    type (whitish) leave the old mans bed, and go over 3 beds and land on
    this other man that was wrentching, and as soon as the smoke settled he
    was quiet, spookey, still don't understand this.
    3. I was very ill after a Gallbladder operation, and my temperature was
    high, my doctor called my priest, and he came to give me the last
    rights, that is how ill I was, well while he was there I saw someone
    standing at the foot of my bed, cloudy, but an outline with hands out
    to me, in the come to me pattern, and I said yes, take me, then all of
    a sudden the hands with holes in them, turned and to stop me, I cried
    why I don't want to be here, and his hands moved and I seen His 4
    fingers, with thumb hidden, I stated my children then He nodded yes, I
    could barely see the face because of the enormouse lighting around Him,
    and I had no pain, He took it away with Him, I do believe that it was
    Christ, my priest asked who I was talking to and I said who was there,
    well he said no-one has been here all the time I have been here, and
    you were speaking to someone out loud, so he heard me and told me that
    I was very lucky to see what I seen, and I was near death as my doctor
    told me so, I do believe that there are things that I am here for.
    
    God bless sorry that I was talking so long.
    
    Barb.G  

    Barb,
    Your third experience gave me goosebumps!  
    
    Karen

A recently repeated report on the television program "20/20" dealt with
children who had had a near death experience.

Two characteristics (which I, too, experienced) almost invariably resulted
in the lives of these children:

	1. An increased respect for life.

	2. A diminished fear of death.

Peace,
Richard