Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    
    Personally, I don't think you should mix the messages of Judgement and
    giving thanks to God.  Judgement is a message for sinners, and
    Thanksgiving is for the saints and those that believe.  It sends a
    distressing message to speak of Judgement on a day when one should be
    giving thanks...just my thought.
    
    Regarding Judgement, however, and this is not a suggestion for your
    sermon, I've always wanted to explore the verse "Unless thy faith
    EXCEED that of the scribes and Pharisees, thou shalt in no wise enter
    into the kingdom of heaven."  What was the level of faith that the
    scribes and Pharisees had?  We need to know that so that we can strive
    to EXCEED that, according to the Holy Spirit.  This seems to be a clear
    criteria upon which Judgement will be based...there is no little
    scriptural reading on the faith of the scribes and Pharisees, so there
    is no reason why such a thing can't be discovered.
    
    A sermon, for Thanksgiving, should evoke feelings and reasons of
    thankfulness, counting one's blessings, rededication.  Save the
    Judgement sermon for New Year's.

    Regarding (.1):
    
    Why does judgment have to be regarded as bad or as a "message for
    sinners?"  Why can't it be a joyous celebration when God's plans, hopes
    for humankind are made so well known to us and through us that we can
    then finally believe?  And wouldn't that be a great time for
    thanksgiving?  
    
    When we focus on God's love for all - sinners and prostitutes - on
    God's continuously loving us regardless of who we are and what we've
    done -- this, when finally understood and felt by us compels us to
    strive for the new life in Christ.  When we know that all humankind are
    set free, our hearts race and we give God thanks.
    
    So often we, who have been given the capability to judge, but who have
    not been given the authority to do so end up erroneously condemning
    people of the world.  We judge the street person as one who is lazy,
    who just cannot take on responsibility for their lives.  The dirty
    wrotten sinner; ha! we say - they deserve what they get!��  So the
    street person robs for food, for booze.  Perhaps we should be judged
    because we continuously endorse systems which create more and more
    reasons for street-people.
    
    I hope my God forgivers them and me for such as the swamp of life in
    which we live.  Thanks be to God!
    
    Regarding the scibes and pharisees:
    
    I think the scripture is simply saying that we must not limit our
    religiosity to fall within the "structure" of the "church".  In other
    words, we are to take Matthew 25:31-46 seriously.  That is, it is those
    who have done the real things like feeding the hungry who have
    thgerefore done them to the master.  It is not by only mouth but also
    by action.  It is word-in-deed that we act out the message of Jesus in
    this world.
    
    

    More of regarding (.1) and judgment vs. thanksgiving:
    
    When I preach I use the lectionary so that I will not be caught up in
    preaching only my "favorite" scriptures.  I ask you to read Zephaniah
    1:7, 12-18 and then to comment on how to treat "thanksgiving."
    
    When I read this part of scripture I really get kind of upset.  The
    imagery of a combative God who is going to bring forth hellfire and
    damnation just isn't the God I can worship.  My God is a loving and
    forgiving God who will triumph in the end time by somehow helping us to
    see God's glory - just a little closer - just a little more.
    
    Yes, we are called to work and pray for a kingdom on earth as it is in
    heaven.  That is, we are not asked to wait for the end time but to help
    build a world of shalom right here, right now.  God is love not
    violence.  
    
    When we focus on the God of the Judgment Day, we focus on things which
    only force us to try to judge others.  If we work toward loving others,
    God's message will be made known throughout the world.
    
    What happens to a sinner (any and all of us) when once we come to
    realize the stuff of God's love for us?  Encourage one another.  Laugh
    and cry for and with one another.
    
    Is Hitler sinner for now and evermore?  What might have happened to
    have made Hitler more compassionate?  Was it possible?  If you say it
    was strictly up to Hitler to decide for it was God's grace which gave
    him that freedom, how could we have loved Hitler into radical
    conversion.  If it was not possible, has God created monsters of us?
    

    re: 2
    
>    Why does judgment have to be regarded as bad or as a "message for
>    sinners?"  Why can't it be a joyous celebration when God's plans, hopes
>    for humankind are made so well known to us and through us that we can
>    then finally believe?  And wouldn't that be a great time for
>    thanksgiving?  
    
    Well, it seems to me that "sinners" need to believe more in the
    "primary" cause, which is "God IS, and is a rewarder of those who
    diligently seek him."  And once that has been firmly established for
    them, then they will discover that "God is a punisher of the sinner,"
    as well.  By this, I mean Judgement is not a primary effect, but coming
    to "thankfulness" is...the two concepts seem contrary.
    
    In Corinthians, I believe it is, where the Lords Supper is discussed, I
    interpret it to say that the Lord's Supper is meant to taken each
    evening at home, and while one does, one should reflect on the life of
    Christ, and examine thyself, "judge" thyself, so that God won't have to
    judge us.  And I see a benefit in this.
    
    If we judge ourselves, and correct ourselves, the affair goes much
    easier on us.  Whereas, if we wait and God and the saints ends up
    judging us, it won't go so easy on us, having others judge us...think
    of how it is in present life, when someone tells another they are
    wrong, as opposed to someone realizing themselves that they are wrong.
    
    Judgement has a certain "finality" about it, that doesn't seem to fit
    well with thanksgiving for blessing...Judgement, IMO, is not a blessing
    we should relish...for we shouldn't be judged if we do well, but
    commended (some may call that a judgement, but I call it mercy/reward).
    
    I understand what you're getting at, I think, I'd like to see an
    outline of how you plan to deliver that message...sounds interesting. 
    I think the obstacle will be to convince the congregation that
    Judgement is not necessarily something to fear.

    Ron,

    I agree with you.  I could never worship a God who condemned people to
    hell.  The very concept of hell is so barbaric to my sense of morality
    that it was a big reason why I became an atheist in my teenage years
    (since my fundamentalist background taught me that the only alternative
    to accepting the standard dogma in its entirety was to reject the faith
    altogether).  I now realize that it is possible to believe in a God
    without accepting the doctrine of hell.

    -- Mike

    And what of the mothers and fathers of children who have commited
    heinous acts of sin and violence, acts that may have caused violent
    deaths, rapes?How are the parents to interpret judgment and/or
    thanksgiving for their children?  How can the end time for the parents,
    the loving parents of those "terrible" children, ever be wrapped up in
    the glory of God when they are sick in their stomachs about the death
    and damnation that will be heaped on their children?
    
    Consider, dear parents, the parable of the lost sheep and the joy og
    God in recovering the one lost sheep out of one hundred.  Pray that God
    remember that parable and that your children are saved from this utter
    destruction.  
    
    If you believe as I do that when we ernestly come before God confessing
    our sins and ask for forgiveness, God will forgive.  So too is my hope
    for that end time when the mysteries of life become known.
    
    One could argue that we should not have to wait for that end time to
    come to know God and I believe we must forever keep trying; but, you
    know, something always seems to get in the way of that clear vision of
    God.  I make promises to God and often within the hour I've gone out
    and done some really stupid and not nice things.  The stuff of life
    seems to have these magnets all around me that latch on to me and there
    I go again.  The magnet of anger sucks me right in and is sure hard to
    pull away from sometimes.  And then there is the magnet of "self" which
    cleverly tricks me into thinking I'm doing things for others when often
    it is my best interest in mind.  
    
    God, how can this be?  Why won't you let me understand once and for
    all, how to be?  - Ohn Ron, you want to be a puppet!  What kind of love
    would I have for you if I controlled everything you did?  Is that the
    kind of life you want?  And, oh, Ron what do you want me to do about
    the choice of the lesser evil?
    
    So, do we give up realizing we just can never make it with God no
    matter how hard we try or do we have hope for the future ��when God's
    way, God's purpose is made known?
    
    	Ron
    

I recall a phrase that Tony Barbeiri (sp?) used in a version of the 
_Christian_ notesfile (version 3, I think).

		      "Justice and Mercy kissed"

I find those four words deeply moving, comforting, and poetic.

I've read reams of notes debating the judgemental role of God versus the
merciful nature of God.  Usually in the form of one side claiming the other 
side is ignoring half of God and the other side responding in kind.

God will judge us, God will be merciful, and those two statements are 
inexplicably entwined.  Justice without mercy *is* to be feared.  Mercy 
without justice is shallow and empty.

I see a court room, the defendant stands, waiting to hear either the phrase 
"guilty" or "not guilty".  Waiting to be sent to jail, or to be sent off out
the door . . . the verdict . . . 

"I love you."  Not off to jail, not out the door, but into open, loving arms.

Peace,

Jim

    Regarding (.7), there is a song that the monks of the Weston Priory sing
    that, I think, echoes the mood of the above response and which will be
    part of my (second) wedding worship service in a few weeks.  The striking
    words for me are "All I ask of you is forever to remember me as loving
    you."  When I fall short during the living of my life, I often come
    back to this song as inspiration; it is God's wish for us - what a 
    powerful and loving message.
    
    You may wish to read the book "Until Justice and Peace Embrace" -
    sorry, but I forget the author's name (the title seems close to
    'Justice and Mercy kissed.'
    
    	Ron
    
    ps: thank you
    

    Ron,
    
    Your note reminded me of a workshop I attended a couple of years ago.
    The participants danced in two circles that intertwined and as we met 
    each person, we looked into their eyes and sang that song.  It was a 
    very *heartwarming* experience to sing "All I ask of you is forever to
    remember me as loving you" to each other and recognize the soul within.
    
    Love to you and your future wife in your upcoming marriage,
    
    Ro
    

    
    Well, it seems to me, that some folks want crops without plowing the
    field.  IMO, "Judgement, is not merely the determination of guilt or
    innocence but also the determination of the punishment after the
    guilty verdict, and if you are found guilty, "every sinner shall be
    punished".
    
    You would feel cheated if God didn't punish us for sins.  Say you do
    good, but I steal you blind, should I feel the wrath of God?  How is it
    that you say you couldn't worship a God that condemns sinners to hell? 
    If a man kills your children, rapes your wife, and burns down your
    house for no reason, what should happen to this man?  How is it that
    you say you couldn't worship a God that condemns sinners to hell?  If
    God didn't send sinners to hell, or punish them, there would be no such
    thing as justice and no need for mercy.
    
    As far as the statement "All I ask of you is forever to remember me as
    loving you", IMO, shouldn't you, as a Christian, growing in the
    knowledge of God, someday come to such a faith and belief in God's
    word, that you learn to think like this before you commit the sin,
    instead of always afterwards when the hammers' about to fall?
    
    I think God wills that we do not sin, and if we were "forever"
    remembering that he loves us, we wouldn't have done the sin in the
    first place...something hypocritical about always remembering after the
    sin...God doesn't love hypocrits does he?  Or, willful sinners?  What
    should be done with such folk?
    
    God is "merciful" indeed, but God also knows the heart, and "as you
    meet so shall it be measured unto you".  You can't fool God, he knows
    when you really repent and when you just say so to avert punishment! 
    God is no FOOL!
    
    Is it FAIR that God judges us and condemns the wicked?  Is it FAIR that
    God have infinite mercy on the righteous?  Ezekiel 33 explains all
    this.  
    
    Some folks speak like no matter what they do God just oughta forgive
    them...I caution you to bear in mind that person in scripture, and I
    forget who it was, "who cried but could not find the tears of
    repentence", something like that, he couldn't earnestly repent, he felt
    soooo guilty and convicted and so wilful, that he couldn't change his
    ways, he had a "reprobate" mind.
    

    What is it this thing called "sin?"  Did the so-called Adam sin when he
    bit into the apple?  Or did Adam sin when he turned away from God? 
    Those that have sinned, namely, all of us, are already being punished
    for we are living the not-so-full life as God intended for us to live. 
    We are already in and/or around the fire and don't need to wait for
    judgment day to be convinced of that.  Thank God that God loves us no
    matter who we are or what we have done!
    
    Asking for forgiveness does not necessarily come from those who are not
    ernestly seeking that forgiveness but comes from us, you know - you and
    me - when we are truly sorry for our errors.  Do we love God to the
    fullest and still sin?  What is fullest given that we are humans?  Did
    Paul love God?  If so, why is he so concerned with his doing things
    that he knows he should not be doing?  If not, why do people take his
    words so (supposedly) literally?
    
    Jesus taught love; Jesus taught that "lo, you shall be with me today in
    Paradise."  On Judgment Day I believe we are opened to all that
    previously was unknown and I can feel the power of the glory of God,
    given to us in a way that we all shall turn toward that light and say
    and feel: "Yes, now I believe."
    
    The power of God is enhanced by God's not needing to weild a slashing
    sword to cut down God's enemies; instead, God is fully capable and
    concerned with loving us now and forever more.  Thanks be to G��od!��
    

    RE: 11
    
    Of course, God loves us no matter who we are or what we have done, but
    that doesnot mean he will not send a sinner to hell, if only for a
    little while...he chastises those he loves!
    
    Personally, I think you don't understand exactly what Christ has done
    for us.  Although we all sin, with Jesus we have an advocate, and Jesus
    has condemned sin in our flesh (which flesh and bone can't go to heaven
    anyway, right!).  So what this means is that "in our spirits" we serve
    the Lord, but in the flesh (which is weak) we serve law of sin.  Now,
    if you are in Christ YOU don't nor can you sin, but your flesh
    sins...you are separated from the flesh, however, while in the Spirit.
    
    I was told once that there are certain "fringe benefits" for having
    faith in Christ, and the more the faith the more the benefits..."To
    whom does God NOT impute sins?"  The Faithful Servent!  READ 1 John 3 &
    4....where it says "[christians] CAN NOT SIN!"  How do you interpret
    that?

    My modified sermon title is "Preparedness in the Face of Uncertainty."
    
    The scripture is as stated above and your previous comments will be used.
    
    Would you like to offer further suggestions based on the new sermon title?
    
    	Regards,
    
    	Ron
    

    
    Sounds like an excellent approach.
    
    What about the scripture that says something about, "When the elements
    part...what state ought you be in."  Is that in the vein of what you
    mean by "Preparedness in the Face of Uncertainty"?

    Actually you just triggerd an image for me to develop.  Imagine being 
    there when the sea was parted for Moses and his community.  Imagine being
    there crossing the ocean floor with huge groaning waves parted about you.
    How would you feel standing there?  What could you do to prepare for
    that trip?  And if you hadn't prepared, then what?
    
    And then there is the image of the door and Jesus by the door.  The 
    question focuses on whether the door is being closed or opened.
    
    	Ron
    

    You have to walk *into*
     the sea (risk, by faith) before it will part for
    you!
    
    (Heard something like this on a religious radio program in the car...)