Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    When and where I grew up, being born again was just another way of
    saying you were a Christian.  I mean, if you were a Christian you were,
    be definition, born again!  
    
    Nevertheless, there was always a dispute between those who said that if
    you couldn't name and time and place when you were saved, then you
    weren't really born again!  I learned, on the other hand, that it was
    something like taming a colt:  if you worked with a colt from the time
    it was born, it always knew and trusted you and would never remember
    *not* being tame.  Likewise, if you were brought up in Sunday School
    and church, you learned to accept and trust Jesus at such a young age
    that you might *not* be able to pinpoint a time and place -- but you
    were no less saved or born again! 
    
    Then along came Jimmy Carter.  By then I was living in New England,
    where no one seemed to understand what he was talking about when he
    said he was 'born again.'  Somehow it became a big deal and something
    "different."  Since then, being "born again" seems to be equated with
    being a fundamentalist Christian.  The definition seems to be a bit
    different that then I was growing up.
    
    So... I'd like to know what others in the notes file think about it.
    
    Nancy

"The trouble with the people who are Born Again is
                                          they come back as themselves."



More seriously now.....
To me, this means to be born into the Spirit; which means to see with
new eyes and a new heart, to see with the eyes of Christ.  To be born
again, one must shed *everything* as non-essential and to begin living
a spiritually centered life, as fresh and as naked as with physical
birth.

Peace,
Richard

Re: .2  Richard

>To me, this means to be born into the Spirit; which means to see with
>new eyes and a new heart, to see with the eyes of Christ.  To be born
>again, one must shed *everything* as non-essential and to begin living
>a spiritually centered life, as fresh and as naked as with physical
>birth.

I was sort of into this idea when I was 10.  Here is what is written on
the inside cover of the bible I have in my office:

	  On this the 26th day of March 1969, I gave up my
	old way of life.
	  I surrendered myself to Jesus Christ as my Savior
	& Lord.  I am His forever.
	  And by word and by life I will show Him to others.

			Signed,

		Robert Duncan
		  Messenger

	Witnessed,

		E. Stanley Jones

As you can tell, it didn't last. :-)  Which brings up the question, is
being born again really a once-in-a-lifetime experience?  When I was
growing up there were times when I felt "spiritual", a devoted servant
of God, and other times when I didn't feel at all spiritual.  Leaving
home tilted things decisively towards the non-spiritual side.

In retrospect my 1969 experience doesn't seem very significant.  It's
not like I started to prophesy and speak in tongues.  I wonder, though,
if things had gone the other way, if I'd have gone around telling
people "I was born again on March 26th, 1969"?

				-- Bob

    Our Baptist friends claim it's a one time deal.  John Wesley
    (you probably remember hearing about him, Bob ;-]) said it's
    part of spiritual discipline to re-dedicate yourself everyday.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    re: 2., Richard,
    
>To me, this means to be born into the Spirit; which means to see with
>new eyes and a new heart, to see with the eyes of Christ.  To be born
>again, one must shed *everything* as non-essential and to begin living
>a spiritually centered life, as fresh and as naked as with physical
>birth.
    
    Evidently, for you it is more than what I described in .1 as trusting
    and accepting Jesus (as Savior).  Can you say more about how this
    happens and how it is different from .1?  Is it a decision you make,
    or something that you one day realize has happened to you after a long
    time of following Christ, or what? 
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy

    re: Being "Born Again"
    
    "You must be born again of the SPIRIT (OF GOD)"
    
    This is quite a mystery of life, but it is described, though not
    explained, in scripture.  
    
    Being "born again of the spirit" is a natural life process, that SHOULD
    happen to every man/woman, in the course of their life time.  However,
    due to lack of knowledge and morality, we "grieve the spirit", and its
    unfolding development.  The spirit, in us, develops and manifests much
    like a flower from a stem, a blossom from a limb, in its season.
    
    II Corinthian's 15 (?) talks says this, "The first man is born natural,
    and then afterwards that which is spiritual; The first Adam is earthy,
    the second Adam is a "quickening spirit"."  And a few verses later it
    says, "In the twinkling of an eye...."  This chapter, speaks of this
    natural life process.
    
    Ok, now, in most esoteric circles this process of development is called
    "spiritual enlightenment" or "spiritual cultivation".  The Ancients'
    believe that there is a tried, true and tested science to the
    enlightenment or cultivation of the spirit in man.  This "science" has
    been placed in the Bible, as the Word of God.
    
    Now, Jesus was criticized, as were many others who did this, for making
    this knowledge available to the "profaning" masses.  As it is written,
    "Until John the Baptist...now the violent take heaven by force" (I
    don't remember the verse.  But this verse is basically saying that
    ever since John and Jesus brought forth this teaching to the masses,
    the violent (wicked) are gaining entrance to heaven and taken it by
    force.  Which also means, the wicked like "wolves in sheeps (Jesus the
    Lamb of God) clothing" take this planet (heaven) by force.
    
    Anyway, through the Bible we learn the kind of attitude, character,
    behavior, etc. that doesn't "grieve" or inhibit the blossoming or birth
    of the spirit that is naturally going to come forth from within us.
    
    One thing about Bible teachings, that many of us fail to realize, is
    that these teachings are, by and large, naturally occuring events in
    life, which, as we've discussed in other topics, we merely fail to see
    for what they really are, and as a result do not allow to take their
    full and proper course of growth and development or unfoldment.
    
    Being "baptisted in the water" is the first stage of this "Christian"
    method of Initiation.  It is a symbol that we desire to embark upon
    this path.  
    
    The second stage is the "baptism of the holy spirit", and some have
    argued that the first stage doesn't necessarily have to preceed the
    second.  But JESUS, said "I do this to fulfill all righteousness" and
    he was first baptised and THEN the dove of the Holy Spirit descended
    upon him.  
    
    After this, the next stages involve "ever increasing levels of faith",
    that we pass through during "trials and tribulations" or tests, that
    prove/refine us.  
    
    Being "born again", therefore has meant the several different things
    mentioned in previous replies to this topic, but again it is mystery! 

    When I was in grade school and junior high I lived in Northern
    Virginia. Some of the more conservative Prodestant preachers
    and their followers would tell the Episcopal young people that
    they really�weren't 'born again' to try and get them to change
    churches.
    
    Our pastor pointed out that being 'born again' strictly means recieving
    the Holy Spirit, and that each of us did that when the Bishop laid
    hands on us at Confrimation. So ever since then, when I was asked
    if I was 'born again' I'd answer�yes.  Of course there are those
    who feel there are specific signs to being 'born again' such as
    being 'slain in the sprit' or speaking in tongues, which means that
    Confirmation doesn't make the grade.
    
    Bonnie

Re:  Confirmation

I'd be wary about suggesting that *any* ritual is a sign of being born
again, whether it's Confirmation, Baptism or whatever.  But as has already
been pointed out, this is just an alternate way of saying that someone
is a Christian.

Note 84.5

Nancy,

>    Evidently, for you it is more than what I described in .1 as trusting
>    and accepting Jesus (as Savior).  Can you say more about how this
>    happens and how it is different from .1?  Is it a decision you make,
>    or something that you one day realize has happened to you after a long
>    time of following Christ, or what? 

	This may be a dissapointing reply.  I really don't know much
more than what I already said.

	The only gospel that speaks about being "born again" is according
to John (Jn 3:1-21).  I don't think a Christian can _decide_ on this so much
as to be receptive to it.  I believe it has to do with an emmersion or
"drenching" of the Holy Spirit.  I don't believe this is for everyone
*always* perceptible through the physical senses while it is occuring.
Doubtlessly, sometimes it is.  It can be as subtle as a breeze or as
difficult to ignor as chinnook winds. :-)

Peace,
Richard

    Richard, do you believe that someone has to be a Christian to be
    emmersed in the Holy Spirit?
    
    -- Mike

    re .10
    
    I believe the Holy Spirit was around before Jesus was born and
    profoundly affected the lives of people who did not know the name
    Christian.  This is supported by the New and Old Testaments.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    Richard
    
    I believe that this still happens. Somehow I dont think that God
    is depedant on our feeble efforts to evangelize and spread his
    word. I think he is quite capable of bringing souls to him through
    the Holy Spirit.
    
    Bonnie

    I view being born again very similarly to the way Richard describes 
    it.  I believe a certain level of receptivity is helpful, but it 
    doesn't have to necessarily be consciously purposeful.   
    
    Neither is being born again a once-in-a-lifetime experience as I have 
    come to know it.  My first was exactly 13 years ago this month!  
    Although raised as a Protestant, I did not consider myself to be a 
    Christian as I had left the church in my early teens, and I think I 
    had mentally left it long before then.  Neither did I follow Jesus 
    Christ or believe in God, yet I still was born again into God.
    
    It was during the darkest time of my life.  I prefer to keep the 
    details private, but suffice to say for months I had found myself 
    contemplating suicide more and more frequently.  On this particular 
    night my pain and despair was so deep that the idea of suicide took 
    on a certain appeal I hadn't experienced before.  It was the only 
    thought I had had that day that somehow seemed to slow my descent 
    into my own personal hell.
    
    I had spent most of the day crying, and rather than feeling any 
    release I just sank deeper and deeper.  Now there weren't even any 
    tears left and I was almost totally numb and in a state of shock.  
    I was only aware of my desire to end my suffering.  Nothing else.
    
    All of a sudden I found myself picking up a piece of paper and 
    a pencil nearby.  I began to sketch a scene where I used to spend 
    many hours playing as a child.  It was a marshy area with grass humps 
    and cattails.  Without thinking or planning, (for my rational mind 
    was totally out to lunch) I sketched this scene out.   Then I found 
    myself drawing another image slightly above the marsh.  It was an 
    angel floating gently in front of me with its arms by its sides and 
    its palms opened and extended to me.  I found myself immediately 
    drawn into this 'being' for what must've been an hour or so.  My mind 
    seemed to go blank for awhile.  Even the idea of suicide slipped 
    quietly away without my notice.
    
    I slowly came out of this experience.  I remember feeling that my 
    whole self was bathed in a deep feeling of peace, of compassion;  
    that it was inside me and radiating out through my skin.  I was still 
    somewhat numb, but somewhere inside my mind and heart an 
    *incredible* shift had taken place, and the darkness that had consumed 
    me only hours before was somehow very distant.  Little did I know then 
    that it was never to return again, to that level of intensity.
    
    That was the turning point in my life.  It didn't make a sudden, 
    direct 180 degree turn, but I found myself beginning to make healthy 
    choices in my life, cleaning up 'unfinished business', and the 
    thoughts of suicide that had been increasing in frequency, reversed 
    and began to quickly decrease, in frequency and intensity.  It took me 
    some years to realize what had happened to me that night, but I now 
    know it to be the hand of God that reached out and "saved" me and 
    sent an angel to my aide.
    
    This all happened with little belief in God, no appreciation of Jesus 
    Christ, no bible reading, and no church affiliation.  For all intents 
    and purposes God was just a mysterious, untrustworthy blotch in my 
    life.  (Sorry God, but you know I'm just telling it like it 'was'.)
    
    Anyway, I've also had other experiences of being re-born since then 
    where I feel the light of God born in me again.  Given my 
    experience 13 years ago, I won't say that one has to be consciously 
    receptive necessarily to be born again.  Perhaps, somewhere in the 
    sub-conscious or supra-conscious depths of our psyche this 
    receptivity is alive and well, and this is what God draws on to 
    reach us.
    
    Since I wasn't a Christian at the time, I know God doesn't have any 
    requirement around that either.  We are all equal in the eyes of 
    the Divine Father and Mother and Son.  And we are loved for who we 
    are.  Truly. 
    
    Karen                               

    RE: 13 -
    
    Wow, Thanks for sharing that so openly, Karen!
    
    
    RE: .9
    
    That *was* helpful, Richard!
    

Scott Peck, when asked if he been born-again, answered affirmatively
by saying that it had been a difficult birth which had been preceded
by long, hard labor.

Peace,
Richard