Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

re note 72.0 by CSC32::LECOMPTE:

>     Re. 34.15
>     
>     �if someone comes to the Father they came to the Father by Jesus's
>     �intervention, even if they didn't realize that at the time. An
>     �example of this is found in Lewis's Narnia books in "The Last Battle"
  ...  
>     Is it possible to get to heaven by mistake?

        To be fair to Bonnie (and to me, since I've expressed a
        similar opinion):

        1) She said "come to the Father" rather than "get to heaven".
        While it is reasonable to assume that one who is "with the
        Father" will ultimately "get to heaven", she (and I) would
        say that "get to heaven" is putting the cart before the
        horse.  A relationship with the Father (or as I would have
        expressed it, the one true living God) is really the goal. 
        Heaven would be just a nice side effect.

        2) Scripture is replete with examples of people who have
        relationships with the one true living God but who know
        little or nothing of the historical Jesus.  If Scripture is
        true, then they, even though they didn't know it, benefited
        from the intervention of Jesus.

        Bob

    I think you may have skipped a few preliminary questions:
    
    What do you mean by heaven?
    
    Is heaven a place?  Is it the same place for everybody?  If it is,
    what makes you think that it's "heaven"?
    
    Does "being in heaven" occur only after death?
    
    What is the principle benefit offered by heaven?
    
    Is "Life eternal" the same thing as immortality?

    
    "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness..."
    
    A relationship with the Father and finding the kingdom of God go
    hand-in-hand, you can't get to the kingdom without having a
    relationship with God.  In Proverbs 2:1-5 is given the formula for
    finding the kingdom of God...and I don't believe it can be stumbled
    upon by accident.  But, that's the Old Testament.
    
    In the New Testament, it discusses something about the Gentile who does
    by nature the things of God, who may very while wind up in heaven
    unawares, and I believe the problem with that is also stated, as such a
    person upon realizing that "this is heaven" and "that is God", may not
    want to be there.  It seems, therefore, that the Old Testament method
    is the way one would want to get there, but that's not the only way.
    
    What or where is heaven?
     
    I'm somewhat unsure, but it seems that there's a difference between
    "heaven" and the "kingdom of God".  
    
    Three "heavens" are defined in scripture, if kingdom and heaven are the
    same.  1)In Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and
    the earth," which seems to be a "universal" heaven.  2)In Genesis 1:9,
    "And God called the firmament heaven," which definitely states that
    this atmosphere, surrounding the earth, is heaven.  And 3)In Luke
    17:(?) Jesus states, "...for the kingdom of God is within you," which
    says that heaven is inside of us, in our hearts.  Thus, three domains
    of heaven are described in the Bible.
    
    I would say, further, what this means is this.  Heaven is anywhere the
    "Spirit of God" moves within.  After Genesis 1:1, it says "And the
    Spirit of God moved upon the face of the deep."  After, Genesis 1:9, we
    find the "Spirit of God" moving as God creates all life in the earth. 
    And we know the "Spirit of God" moves within our hearts.  
    
    I've heard it said that, "Paradise is a place where heavenly people
    congregate".  "Paradise" and "kingdom" seem to be synonymous.  Heaven,
    has been said to be a "condition or state of mind/being".  Which is to
    say that, the universe, has a condition or state of mind/being of its
    own.  The earth/atmosphere, has a condition or state of mind/being of
    its own.  And Man, has a condition or state of mind/being of its own. 
    Of course, each of which the "Spirit of God" moves within creating
    life.  General life in the Universe differs from general life on Earth
    differs from the general life that the Word creates in Man (John 1:5,
    "And in him (Word) was life and the life was the light of all men").
    
    So, it is, IMHO, possible that one might find heaven (on earth or in
    themselves) without actually having a conscious knowledge and
    relationship with the Father; merely doing the things of God could gain
    one heaven.  But the "Kingdom of God" or "Paradise", or the place where
    heavenly hearted people congregate, in the sight of God, in the
    knowledge of truth, praising the Father, etc., must be attained by
    conscious effort and knowledge of God.  In other words, you can get to
    heaven, but in order to stay there you've got to know Him, be able to
    communicate with the others who are there.  Of course, if you can't
    communicate with the divine beings in the kingdom you probably wouldn't
    want to stay there anyway, such is the Gentile!
    
    Praise God and add a blessing to the reading, hearing and discussion of
    His Word, may the Lord be magnified in the hearts and minds of men.

        Tony Barbieri, in Note 178.13 in the GOLF::CHRISTIAN
        conference, addresses the issue of whether a "'man of the
        Himalayas' has faith in Christ and yet may have never heard
        that this Christ died on the cross to redeem him."

        Bob

    How would I recognize heaven?
    
    Richard

    
    
    You will recognize all of the people from CHRISTIAN  ;)
    
    Jamey

    re .6
    
    That's your idea of heaven??

    Man, that ain't any place I wanna spend eternity! :)
    ================================================    
    Peace,
    Richard

    re:  .6 and .7
    
    Maybe the key word in .6 is recognize.  
    
    DR

	There are some disadvantages to working only 3 days a week.
    My noting time is seriously affected.  Richard(?) brought up some
    valid questions in .2   Here are my answers.
    
    =================================================================
    
    What do you mean by heaven?
    
    The eternal city wherein God dwells with those that have been
    redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb and whose names are written 
    in the Book of Life.
    
    Is heaven a place?  Is it the same place for everybody?  If it is,
    what makes you think that it's "heaven"?
    
    Heaven is an actual (physical? I guess at that point it will all 
    be relative) place.  It is the same for everyone because God will
    only create ONE new heaven.  Since that is the case what makes you
    think it won't be heaven?
    
    Does "being in heaven" occur only after death?
    
    Absolutely; the same goes for Hell.
    
    What is the principle benefit offered by heaven?
    
    Eternity spent with God.
    
    
    Is "Life eternal" the same thing as immortality?
    
	NO, life eternal is not the same as immortality.  Immortality
    implies living for ever in the same body.  Life eternal is beyond
    anything we could ask for or even imagine.  (Eye has not seen, and
    ear has not heard, neither has it entered into the imagination of
    man what God has prepared for those that love Him.
    
    

    
    RE. .5
    
    	If Gods not there when you get there; it's not heaven.

   
>    	If Gods not there when you get there; it's not heaven.

How will I recognize her? ;-)


Seriously, I know God to be present here (in this life).  Is this then
also heaven?

Peace,
Richard

Richard,

Now you see but in a mirror dimly.

In heaven, all see God face to face.

Note 72.10

>    The eternal city wherein God dwells with those that have been
>    redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb and whose names are written 
>    in the Book of Life.

This sounds more like speculation based on the apocalyptic writing of
St. John the Divine, rather than actual teachings about the Kingdom
of God from Jesus, the Christ.

>    Heaven is an actual (physical? I guess at that point it will all 
>    be relative) place.  It is the same for everyone because God will
>    only create ONE new heaven.  Since that is the case what makes you
>    think it won't be heaven?

What would be heaven for me would likely be very different from someone
who lived in the 6th century Europe or a Native American or an Eskimo.

>    Eternity spent with God.
 
So, what *else* is there to do?  Many of the devout have difficultly
with even one hour per week in worship.  Are you saying that that's
*all* there'll be to do in heaven? :-(

Peace,
Richard

    Reminds me of an old song by the Talking Heads:
    
    	Heaven is a place
    	Where nothing ever happens.
    
    :-)
    
    -- Mike

    Re: Heaven
    
    We are in heaven now!  (Refer Gen. 1:9)  However, because of our
    "foolish and vain imaginations" (Refer Romans 1:25 or so) our hearts
    are darkened and we do not recognize this earth for what it truly is. 
    Unless we be "renewed in our minds" (refer "it's in there somewhere")
    and come to "know the truth and dwell therein" (also in there) we will
    never see heaven, though it be right in front of our faces!  
    
    We have to develop/cultivate (the ground from which we were taken) that
    which is within, to be atoned with that which is without (thy will be
    done in earth (remember the ground from which we are taken) as it is in
    heaven"  Remember the Lord's Prayer?  
    
    The Bible is written "allegorically", and it reveals in a very
    mysterious way "truth".  "Hidden from the wise, but revealed unto
    babes" refers to the childlike receptivity with which we must receive
    the Word of God, and write it on the tables of our hearts.  We don't
    have to worry about "synthesizing" the knowledge or "comprehending" the
    knowledge, because the "Holy Spirit" will guide us INTO all truth.  In
    other words, don't try to "intellectualize the Word of God (like you
    are WISE), you just receive it (like a BABE), and "by grace we are
    saved".
    
    Consider this, when you read a book, any book, all you do is
    concentrate of pronouncing the words as you read.  After you've done
    reading, concepts automatically form, comprehension and understanding
    of the text happens automatically, you don't have to put forth any
    effort for this to happen.  
    
    But, in the case of the Bible, we want to argue and debate those
    natural/graceful conceptions, because the disagree (pooh-pooh) with our
    current "life-style" or the "popular" opinion.  We seek to change the
    meaning of God's Word to fit OUR current condition, and not allow His
    Word to change our minds about our perception of our current condition,
    which if we did would "save" us.  But, (see Romans 1:25 again)....
    
    This is why Paul says, "We are WITHOUT EXCUSE", because when you knew
    God, you worshipped him not as God, but made the things of God like
    unto creeping things (materialistic causes) and their foolish hearts
    was darkened".   So, we are truly without excuse, because God has
    revealed himself unto every man, even his eternal Godhead and
    power"...but the wise man intellectualized himself right into HELL. 
    Hell is a state of total chaos and confusion of the MIND, just like
    heaven is a state of peace and harmony and atonement of the MIND, but
    the mind in juxtaposition to what?  In juxtaposition to life!

    Actually I like �C.S. Lewis's version of heaven... sort of a Narnia
    made large..
    
    I honestly don't see how the person/soul I am could be anything
    but bored by eternity doing nothing but sitting around God's 
    throne signing psalms or some such..
    
    But then perhaps after death  things look very different.
    
    Bonnie

    When I was a little girl, I thought I'd like to ride a zebra when I get
    to heaven.

    re.14
           
    Richard:
    
    
          Could you use the name Inuit, rather than "Eskimo" ?
       Thanks, I knew you'd be agreeable to it. ;-)
          Anyway, having spent a fair amount of time in Greenland
       and Alaska I can absolutely assure you that the Arctic peoples
       idea of heaven is pretty far removed from what most of us would
       consider heavenly. Although some sportsman might consider it
       heaven if hunting and fishing are high up on your list of
       pleasures. On the other hand a vegetarian would probably consider
       it hell. 
           Your remarks about peoples attitudes towards worship remind
       of Mark Twain's, "Letters From Earth". Have you read it ?
      
    
                                                       Mike
                                                       
                                                

>    The eternal city wherein God dwells with those that have been
>    redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb and whose names are written 
>    in the Book of Life.

�This sounds more like speculation based on the apocalyptic writing of
�St. John the Divine, rather than actual teachings about the Kingdom
�of God from Jesus, the Christ.

    Sounds like you are saying that Revelation is speculation???
    Surely thats' not what you mean?
    
    
    
>    Heaven is an actual (physical? I guess at that point it will all 
>    be relative) place.  It is the same for everyone because God will
>    only create ONE new heaven.  Since that is the case what makes you
>    think it won't be heaven?

�What would be heaven for me would likely be very different from someone
�who lived in the 6th century Europe or a Native American or an Eskimo.

    
    I think the problem that most people are running into, is that heaven
    is not relative.  There is a definate heaven it is NOT going to be 
    what we make it but rather what God makes it.  Even if you thing heaven
    will be hunting & fishing or a beautiful world like Narnia you would be
    limiting God.  The Bible clearly says that we can't even imagine what 
    heaven will be like.
    
    
    
>    Eternity spent with God.
 
�So, what *else* is there to do?  Many of the devout have difficultly
�with even one hour per week in worship.  Are you saying that that's
�*all* there'll be to do in heaven? :-(

    	If the 'devout' are so devout then they derive great pleasure from
    being in the presense of God.  Anyone who has a REAL relationship with
    God that is ALIVE will tell you that time spent in fellowship with God
    is better then ANYTHING else you can do here on earth.
    
    
    
 	If you think that heaven is just sitting around on a cloud playing
    a harp; you neither know God or have any concept of the REAL heaven.
    
    	_ed-

    I agree with Playtoe:  Heaven is here and now, we just do not 
    recognize it, and perhaps some simply refuse to believe it. 
    
    	The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither
    	shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the 
    	kingdom of God is within you.
    
    Karen

Re:  .20

Right on, Ed!

Worshipping God is a *privilege* and a *blessing*.  (Prayer, however...)

Well, I do struggle with my prayer life.  If I would only pray more often,
I would ask God to help me with my prayer life!  :-)

On the way to work this morning, I listened to Sandy Patti's song "The
Gift Goes On".  It gives me *such* an appreciation for who God is and
what He has done for me.  It doesn't take much for me to really want to
praise God for who He is.  To *worship* Him.

Consider being away from your spouse from the day you were married until
you died.  You could write letters.  You could talk on the phone.  But
you never got a chance to *see* or *touch* your spouse, the one who you
are supposed to be the most intimate with.

That's what it is like here on earth with God in heaven.  Imagine the
*joy* when we can finally *see* God face to face!  And enjoy Him forever!
Because we ARE His bride.  And He is coming back for us.

Collis

Note 72.19

>          Could you use the name Inuit, rather than "Eskimo" ?
>       Thanks, I knew you'd be agreeable to it. ;-)

I *knew* there was a name of preference, but Inuit just wouldn't come to me.
Thanks!

>           Your remarks about peoples attitudes towards worship remind
>       of Mark Twain's, "Letters From Earth". Have you read it ?

I have.  What was your impression of this work of Twain's, Mike?
                                                
Peace,
Richard

Re: .24 Richard

>>          Could you use the name Inuit, rather than "Eskimo" ?
>>       Thanks, I knew you'd be agreeable to it. ;-)
>
>I *knew* there was a name of preference, but Inuit just wouldn't come to me.
>Thanks!

I've just looked up the word "Eskimo" in my American Heritage Dictionary, and I
found that the definition doesn't include the word "Inuit".  I suggest that
everyone do what I've just done: take out a pencil, turn to the page containing
the definition for "Eskimo" and write "Inuit = preferred term for Eskimo".

				-- Bob

Note 72.22

    -- Mike

	I, too, am so not concerned about the hereafter.  This is partly
due to a near death experience I had when I was about 9 years old.

	I also believe that when Christ spoke of eternal life and the
kingdom of God, he was not excluding our present lives, nor was he
advocating privatized religiousity.

					Peace,
					Richard

    I'm not particularly worried about the existence of an afterlife, but
    if there is life after death I suspect that *everyone* will be
    surprised to find that what they experience doesn't meet their
    preconceptions.  I am much more concerned about how we can work to
    establish peace and justice in the current life than in speculating
    about what happens in the next one.

    -- Mike

    Re. 24 & 26

   Bob & Richard:
        
        Thanks, you guys are very accommodating. Just one final thing,
      Inuit is the Inuit's preferred term, not mine. But you knew that
      didn't you ? 
    
     Re.24 (Letters From The Earth)
    
             
     Richard:
    
         It has been many years since I read this so my conclusions
     might be as fuzzy as my memory
         Perhaps the single thing that stands out is how ultimately foolish
     it is to try to compartment things up into "sacred" and "secular".
     Or should I say how foolishly people can behave when they try to
     do this.                      
         
                                                       Mike

    Re: .27  Mike
    
    Yes, I knew that Inuit is the term preferred by Inuits, but I also
    think it's a term that would be easy to forget; that's why I wrote it
    into my dictionary.  It's hard to change old habits.  It would be like
    asking you to say "fooglebratz" instead of "blue" from now on.
    
    				-- Bob

    This is drifting a bit, but while you're at it:
    
    Dine (pronounced din-nay') is what the Dine people prefer instead
    of Navajo.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    Bob .28,
    
    re the difficulty of changing old habits.
    
    > It would be like asking you to say "foogelbratz" instead of
    > "blue" from now on.
    
    Difficult perhaps, but there are WAYS us noters can help each other
    out...
    
    :-)
    
    Karen
    
    p.s. sorry, just couldn't resist.
    
    

Well, I've altered my office dictionary now, thank you for the edification.

Some of the discussion reminds me of a line in a song by Laurie Anderson:

"Paradise, is exactly like where you are *right now*, only much, MUCH better."

In her book _The Hope of Heaven_, Helen Oppenheim introduces what I think are
some excellent scriptural perspectives on heaven, and indeed her view is that
it is like where you are *right now*, only much, MUCH better.  (That's a 
tickler to entice people to read her book.  I won't say more, other than it's 
not an easy book to read.  She's an Oxford, England educated theologian, and 
the syntactical structure of her sentences are oftimes daunting.)

And more back to the topic, I'm reminded of the true story of a Christian 
missionary (I forget where, North America, I think), who after living with a
group of people, and finding that though they had no knowledge of Jesus or
Christianity, they none the less knew that they were called by their Higher
Power to be loving to their neighbors as to themselves, to be stewards of the 
earth, that those who work for the causes of peace are blessed, et cetera. 
The point being that they had a loving, familial relationship with their God
very similar to, but in no way connected with Christianity. 

Now when the missionary shared with them his knowledge and relationship with 
Jesus, he was rather taken aback when their reply was something like, "Yes,
okay, that's True, tell us something we didn't know."

The missionary (a loving and wise person) came to realize that he could not in 
good conscious try to replace their "heathen" views with Christianity.  He 
could only work to expand their views, and only be allowing his own view to be 
expanded as well.

Peace,

Jim, who thinks there'll be a lot of SURPRISES in Heaven...

p.s.

Bob, 

'Red roses, for a foogelbratz lady...', sorry, Bobby Vinton will never be the 
same.  (not that he ever was)   .-)

    Jim
    
    > 'Red roses, for a foogelbratz lady...', sorry, Bobby Vinton will
    > never be the same. (not that he ever was)
    
    Neither will Elvis...
    
    'I... I'll have a foogelbratz Christmas without you.  I'll be so
     foogelbratz just thinkin' about you...'
    
     8-)
    
     Kb
    

Re:  72.31

  >they none the less knew that they were called by their Higher Power 
  >to be loving to their neighbors as to themselves, to be stewards of the 
  >earth, that those who work for the causes of peace are blessed, et cetera. 

I call this a conscience, which God has given everyone.  Is there
something beyond a conscience that you were referring to here?

Collis

    Re. 33
    
    The conscience usually lets you know when you're about to do
    something wrong, or lets you know you've done something wrong
    after you've done it.  I believe God can and does affect the
    conscience of people, though.
    
    What I'm trying to point out here is that the conscience is a
    reactive mechanism.  It takes more than a conscience to inspire,
    to fuel and to fire.  It takes the Divine and it takes passion.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    Inner Light--This refers to the presence of God in our hearts and
    lives, a reality which guides and directs us, which gives us strength
    to act on this guidance, and thus brings us into unity with the spirit
    of God.  This presence of God within us is different from conscience,
    which is developed awareness of the merits or faults of our conduct,
    intentions, or character.  Conscience is the sense of obligation to do
    right.  Though both conscience and the Inner Light arise from within,
    they are not alternatives or nor substitutes for each other.  The
    "Inner Light" is also called the "Inward Light," the "Light Within,"
    the "Christ Within," the "Light of Christ," or the "Holy Spirit."

    	From the Glossary, "Faith and Practice", Pacific Yearly Meeting of
    	the Religious Society of Friends

From "Situation Ethics" by Joseph Fletcher:

				CONSCIENCE 

Situation ethics is interested in conscience (moral consciousness) as a
function, not as a faculty....

The traditional error likes in thinking about conscience as a noun instead of
as a verb.  The reflects the fixity and establishment-mindedness of law ethics
as contrasted to love ethics.  There _is_ no conscience; "conscience" is merely
a word for out attempts to make decisions creatively, constructively,
fittingly....

re: Note 72.33 by Collis Jackson

Hi Collis,

> I call this a conscience, which God has given everyone.  Is there
> something beyond a conscience that you were referring to here?

I guess this was already answered by others (thanks), but my answer is "yes".
I was refering to that which you and I know as God.  "Higher Power", as used 
by various "12-Step" anonymous fellowships, is my term of choice when refering
to another's deity or "power greater than oneself".  I consider it respectful
and inclusive. 

Sorry if this terminology got in the way.

Peace,

Jim

p.s.

Sometimes I abbreviate it HP (not to be confused with Messrs. Hewlett and 
Packard) when I am feeling particularly intimate. .-)

Re:  .38

Jim,

How does an awareness of the responsibility to love and respect others
go beyond what a conscious does?

Collis

re: Note 72.39 by Collis Jackson

> How does an awareness of the responsibility to love and respect others
> go beyond what a conscious does?

Hi Collis,

(Do you mean "conscious: having an awareness of one's existence" or 
"conscience: the faculty of recognizing the distinction between right and 
wrong"?  I think you mean the latter (I know I often mix 'em up.))

Mind if I answer your question with another question?  .-)

As a Christian, do you see any difference between doing a Good Thing because 
it is a good thing to do and doing a Good Thing because God calls you to do 
it?

Perhaps this will help you in understanding the point of my original note in 
this string.

Peace,

Jim

Yes, Jim, I understand.  Thanks.  I disagree, I think, but I understand.

Collis