Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Nancy
    
    I feel that we have three parts, a body, a mind (our rational
    thinking part) and our soul (our undying part). I believe
    that the soul comes from God and lives both before and after
    the physical body. 
    
    Is that okay for a start?
    
    Bonnie

    Bonnie,
    
    Does that mean:
    (1) That the soul has no self-consciousness? 
    and (2) That you believe in reincarnation?

    Yes the soul has self consciousness. That is why I can't believe
    that it can exist in a vessel that lacks the ability to express
    that self-consciousness.

    and no, I don't believe in reincarnation.... it is logically
    impossible, since there are more people alive on the earth
    today than have lived in all of past history. So for people
    to have had multiple past lives (unless one postulates that
    one person/soul can be reborn in more than one body - which
    I have trouble with), is impossible. What I speculate is that
    we inherit memory RNA through the egg from our mothers, and that
    explains past life 'memories'. (and besides, reincarnation isn't
    'scriptural' :-) ! 

    Do you think, given the large number of fertilized eggs that
    fail to implant or embryos that fail to come to term that each
    has a unique soul, i.e. a conscious undying part that exists with
    God before incarnation, and lives on after death, that lives
    only a few hours or weeks and has no other earthly existence?

    Maybe they do, but I can't logically accept it. 

    I do believe that the soul exists in God's presence both
    before and after incarnation, or being clothed in flesh.
    I also am beginning to come to accept Don's idea that in
    some way a soul is attracted to or in some other way
    choses the person/family it joins....but this is still
    something I still only poorly understand.
    
    May I say here that people who ask me 'just to have faith' don't
    begin to understand where I'm coming from. (and I am not saying
    you are telling me this). Once I encountered the discrepancies
    between what is known to science (in biology anyway, but also
    paleontology, geology, and anthropology) and traditional, conservative
    Christianity, how *else* could I have remained a Christian except
    by trying to find an accommodation between the facts of science
    and the different interpretations based on writings over 2,000
    years old. Had I not some small kernel of faith I'd have given
    up on Christianity long ago.

    I have to have faith that the two are reconcilable, I can't just
    dismiss the evidence of my eyes and ears and mind because it
    doesn't fit someone's version of what 'Scripture' says.

    I believe that God is much greater than all of us, and that he
    doesn't expect us to deny the evidence that He lays before us
    in the world He created. I don't think He plays tricks. But
    to ignore the evidence of embryology or genetics or anthropology
    or evolution because they don't fit a particular theological
    interpretation, implies that God is deliberately tricking us.

    and I don't believe that...

    but I haven't found many Christians who are interested in talking
    about this with me.

    I guess this needs a separate note, sorry folks. You just got
    a late at night out pouring of my heart.

    Bonnie

    Bonnie, thanks for sharing that.  Do you believe that the non-human
    animals with a given degree of intelligence also have souls?

    -- Mike

    >     -< How much fun could an afterlife be without cats? :-) >-

    
    Mike...this is so true!  What would we do without those furfaces....and
    the puppies too!
    
    Carole

I've had a few thoughts recently along these lines, thinking about when 
"personhood" occurs in the development stages following conception.

Some definitions of "person" I've heard seem to not pan out when taken to 
(logical?) extremes.  Fer instance "it has human DNA", well, so does my 
cuticle, but I don't consider that a person, or even a potential person.  Or 
"it is self-sustaining, given proper nutrients", well, cancerous tumors have
been kept alive and growing in vitro for decades when fed properly, and they
aren't people. 

Then there are definitions that depend on observable properties of humans, 
like culture, or use of grammar, yet there are people, handicapped for various
reasons, and they are certainly people.  (Similar arguments have been used as
justifications for slavery and genocide.) 

I guess my problem is how do you come up with a definition that includes all 
instances of "person", yet excludes all instances of "non-person".

(I know, I know, I even entered a note about the impossibility of proving all 
truth true and all falsity false, but it is interesting and useful to think 
about, I think .-)

The lines along which I've been thinking are "it is a person if another person 
has a personal relationship with it"  (for those offended by the pronoun "it" 
I apologize.)

What do I mean by that?  I think I can best illustrate it by example.
 
Is a fetus a person?  Depends.  I've known people who as soon as they found 
out they were pregnant developed a relationship with their child.  For them, 
that fetus was a person.  I've known other people who for a while had no 
relationship with the fetus, but in the later stages of development began a 
relationship with it.  I've known people who have had abortions with the same 
relationship to the fetus as one might have with a ruptured appendix.  I've 
known others who've had an abortion, who sadly and tragically felt they were 
killing someone, because they had begin a personal relationship with their 
fetus/child.

Same variety of scenarios goes with family and friends of people in
"persistent vegetative state". I know some people who lovingly try to maintain
a relationship with such people, I know other people who have lovingly grieved
their death, even while the heart kept pumping and the IV nutrients and oxygen
kept flowing, though the brain was dead.

Now please nobody misunderstand, these were loving people, and in each
catagory, some were Christians, some were not. 

And yes, even cats...to the degree one has a personal relationship with them, 
they are a person, by this definition.

I still have questions, like how about defining person as anyone with whom God 
has a personal relationship?  Hmmm, does that mean EVERYBODY and EVERYTHING?  
(not one bird falls from the sky but our Father is aware of it)

Or as the psalmist says to God, "you knew me when I was in my mother's womb", 
yes, but when was that really?  Conception?  Second trimester?  Third?  Or 
perhaps before conception (since God transcends time) and thus there is the 
problem of unfertilized egg cells...

I hope this fits the topic, I think it does.  And I ask if others have ever 
thought along these lines, my understanding is yet incomplete.

Peace,

Jim

p.s.  Helen Oppenheimer's book _The Hope of Heaven_ goes far in exploring the 
nature of soul, spirit, and heaven.  She makes a strong point for the 
"recognizability of spirit", we will all be able to uniquely recognize others.
This seems similar to the notion of having relationships...

    --Mike 
    
    I can't presume to even begin to guess about animals... tho I think
    that heaven would be a pretty empty place without pets..
    
    and thanks
    
    Bonnie

                      
    Do animals have souls? In reponse I think the bible covers this nicely.
    At Gen 1:20,21,24 and 25 living souls are talked about being created...
    these are animal souls (in the water, winged creatures, wild and
    domestic beasts). Lev 24:17,18 talks about human and animal souls and
    their being fatally struck. Rev. 16:3 says every living soul died yes
    the things in the sea. From this the bible shows both animals and 
    humans have souls and that animal souls are not immortal. The issue 
    of human souls not being immortal I'll leave for another note. But 
    those curious might want to look at Matt 10:28 and Acts 3:23
    
                                       Robin    
    If this looks familiar to some I copied it from a reply I made a long
    time ago in the SMURF::RELIGION conference.. note 322.17

    To me, the soul is what's left after I dismiss everything that is
    not me.  The soul is the irreducible essence.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    Bonnie, why do you believe that the soul -- or the "person" as I would
    call it -- pre-exists with God?  I think each person is created (at
    some point in that biological process that is being debated in other
    strings :-) )  I do not understand the basis for your belief or its
    necessity.  
    
    If souls (persons) preexist with God, does that mean there is a limited
    number of them?  When did God create them?  Why would God have created
    them all at once?
    
    Hope my questions aren't as confusing as I am confused!
    Nancy

Is "ensoulment" an event or a process?

I see it more as a process.  As I grow more loving and Christ-like, my soul 
grows and matures.

Peace,

Jim

    Re:  .11 How do _you_ perceive ensoulment?
    
    For me, "ensoulment" is the incarnation of a soul into a body.  For
    techies, you might relate it to "loading the software".    It's my
    understanding that complete incarnation or ensoulment usually happens
    around birth, but that's not always the case.  
    
    In the case of our son Steven, for example, I'm quite convinced that
    his was a case of delayed incarnation.  In the months after birth, he
    just wasn't there, to the point where he was diagnosed as totally blind
    an totally deaf, 'though he's neither at this time (age almost 16).
    
    DR

    To answer Nancy's earlier question, I don't know why I believe that
    a soul perexists with God before it becomes part of a person. It may
    be that I've always thought so or it maybe one of the 'crazy ideas'
    I've acquired from living with Don for 23 years.
    
    Bonnie

    RE: .13
    >To answer Nancy's earlier question, I don't know why I believe that
    >a soul perexists with God before it becomes part of a person. It may
    >be that I've always thought so or it maybe one of the 'crazy ideas'
    >I've acquired from living with Don for 23 years.
    
    Then could Don answer .11?  Especially as to why that belief is more
    compelling to you than the idea that each person is created during
    physical creation.  
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy
    
    
    

    re: .14
    
    Not meaning to answer for Don, but there are scriptures that indicate
    that the spirits of individuals preexisted their physical beings.
    
    Charlie

    Charlie,
    
    There is one, that Don mentioned to me when we were driving home
    last night. This is the story of the man born blind. The disciples
    asked who sinned the man or his parents that he was born blind.
    Jesus answered that the man's blindness was not the result of
    sins by either. This can be taken to mean that the soul existed
    before this incarnation, i.e. he had sinned and was thus born
    a blind baby.
    
    Bonnie

    
    Hmmm. I don't know if I'd read 'pre-incarnation sin' into it.
    
    The Jews were quick to equate physical deformities with sin as in the
    account in John 9 which you mention. Jesus' response was that this
    man's blindness was allowed simply to be able to demonstrate the
    power of God, through Jesus.
    
    Yet there are more direct scriptures that show that our 'spirits'
    have always been and that our physical bodies are simply shells
    of our spirit selves. Here's one to start out:
    
          "Then shall the dust (body) return to the earth
           as it was: and the spirit shall return to God
           who gave it."   Eccesiates 12:7
    
    Charlie
    

    I thought that Jesus' comment about the man born blind simply points
    out that sin is not the cause of every physical ailment.  (In fact, it
    is probably the cause of only a few.)
    
    As for Ecclesiates 12:7, "the spirit shall return to God who gave it,"
    this does not (IMO) indicate *when* God gave it or necessitate a
    belief in its preexistence.  Seems to me God gave it when the person's
    life began!
    
    Nancy

    Nancy, do you believe that sin is the cause of *any* physical ailment?
    
    -- Mike

    Well... it *could* be, though I don't usually think of it that way (I
    don't try to make judgments about it).  However, one example might be
    the baby with fetal alcohol syndrome.  Does that mean I consider its
    mother to have sinned in her treatment of herself and her unborn? 
    Again, I try not to make that kind of judgment, as to where the sin
    lies, maybe it originates with someone or something in her environment
    that contributed to her alcohol dependency.
    
    I do not believe that most birth defects (as we presently understand
    them) are caused by sin.
    
    Did I answer your question?  Or do we need a different string on this?
    
    -- Back to your regularly scheduled program (I always wanted a chance to
    write that phrase in a notes string! :-) )
    
    Nancy 

>
>    RE: .13
>    >To answer Nancy's earlier question, I don't know why I believe that
>    >a soul perexists with God before it becomes part of a person. It may
>    >be that I've always thought so or it maybe one of the 'crazy ideas'
>    >I've acquired from living with Don for 23 years.
>    
>    Then could Don answer .11?  Especially as to why that belief is more
>    compelling to you than the idea that each person is created during
>    physical creation.  
    
    Sorry, Don, the question I have is in .10, not .11!
    
    Nancy

    Nancy
    
    I forwarded your note to Don and he wrote back to me that he tought
    he had answered .11
    
    Bonnie

    re:  .10  "Why do I believe that the soul -- or the "person" as I would
    call it -- pre-exists with God?
    
    Well, my answer to the� question, "Why" in this case is no more nor
    less defensible than my answer to "Why do you believe?"  I have little
    Biblical reasoning, but I'll give you my thoughts on the soul and
    ensoulment.  (I call them "mine", but of course, there isn't much
    herein that I haven't heard from someone else!)
    
    For me, as for you, the soul is the true me or the true you.  The soul
    inhabits, or more precisely projects into the body.  The body, then, is
    a physical reflection of a much larger entity.  It is analogous to the
    shadow of the soul.  The shadow is a 2-dimensional projection of a
    3-dimensional body.  The body is a 4-dimensional projection of a
    god-knows-how-many-dimensional soul.  When I  try to imagine what a
    soul is, I think of vortices within a stream.  Little centers of energy
    within a larger whole, yet never separate.
    
    It is as if one used a diving bell to seek treasure on the ocean floor,
    and after a while, got so used to being in the bell that one forgot
    about the existence, the much free-er existence one had on the surface.  
    
    To continue the analogy, the diver does not enter the bell until it can
    protect him/her from the rigors of oceanic life.  At some point, the
    be�bell wears out, and the diver returns to the surface.  The diver that's
    forgotten his/her origins will fear the inevitable destruction of the
    bell; the one who remembers or learns again will treasure the time on
    the ocean floor, but also look forward to flying once again.
    
    Someone mentioned the soul  pre-existing with God.  Ultimately, of
    course, we are always with God, in or out of the body.  Yet, it seems
    clear to me that there are realms outside the body wherein God may seem
    distant.  Not for nothing, did the myth of Hades grow up.  
    
    I want to emphasize that while I'm unaware of strong Biblical evidence
    for the soul pre-existing, other than the reference to John as Elijah,
    and the reference to the man born blind (disputed herein), there is
    other evidence that I find believable.  For example, many people
    including one or two in the file have had dreams or so-called "far
    memories" of previous lives.  In another instance, �a friend of ours
    had a vision as her third daughter was being born of the convergence of
    arrows or rays of light, which one could interpret as ensoulment.  
    
    Finally, there is the evidence of relativity, which shows that time and
    space are really one and inter-related.  The presumption of linear time
    is a concept that we find useful, but not always accurate.  There are
    theoretical holes in space-time, such that if one were infinitesimally
    small, one could travel in time.   In particle physics, the concept of
    particles moving backwards in time is not merely theoretically
    possible, but necessary to the whole theory.  Who's to say that
    conception is not a quantum-level incident, in which time�has no
    meaning?  If such is the case, then to ask whether God created the soul
    there and then would be absurd, for the questions of where and when are
    themselves incomprehensible.
    
    DR

    DR, maybe you already answered this question, and if so I apologize for
    asking this.  If the soul pre-exists before birth, then do you believe
    that it had ever been created, or has it always existed?
    
    -- Mike

    RE: .23
    Thanks, Don, for your explanation.  There's a lot to think about,
    especially in the last part of your writing.
    
    Nancy

    Re:  .24 - Mike
    
    Creation of souls -- You got me.  Something inside of me says that God
    created our souls.  Another thing tells me that anything that is not
    eternal is temporal, and that anything with a beginning has an ending.
    
    I have enough trouble dealing with this breath I call life.  For now,
    my soul will have to deal with longer breaths.
    
    DR

    RE: "the Dr." .26
    
                       Very well put....I agree!
    
    Dave

    If I am an idea in the Mind of God, I wonder when He thought me up!
    

    Nancy -
    
    If time , to God, is not linear as we see it, then either the question
    of "when" is irrelevant or you are an eternal idea in the Mind of God.
    I kind of like the sound of the latter.  :-)
    
    Nanci
           

    And it's great to know He won't "forget" me!

    ;-)
    
    Nanci

    both Nanc(y/i)s are unforgettable to me, and also precious...
    
    hugs
    
    bj

Hi Ray,

I found mine near death, burned and buried in the cold, cold clay.
Jesus conquered death in a very real way for me.

((hugs))

Jim