Conference koolit::disney

    Disney's strategy is to keep addding attractions to WDW fast enough
    so that Guests will feel that they can never quite catch up, and
    will keep coming back time and again.
    
    It works for me!
    
    Danny W.

It's funny that you should bring this up, because my husband and I
were wondering the same thing when we were there last in January.  We
experienced some things we'd never experienced at the "perfect vaca-
tionland" before.  

1.  The monorails were a mess.  It was off-season, and we still had
    trouble getting a ride on the monorail.  It would take at least
    15 minutes to go from the Grand Floridian to the Kingdom which is
    only the very next stop.  The monorail every single time, had to
    sit on the rail in between the two stations.  You just sat there.
    There were no explanations, no apologies, no nothing.  Every time.

    When you were put into the cars by hotel stop (as they usually do
    at night to speed things along), you'd get to your stop and have
    to bang on the window to get them to let you out because they
    were opening the wrong cars.  

    No less than three times we stood at the Transportation Center
    looking into a completely empty monorail train for 15 min. (average)
    until they finally hauled it off to never-never-land somewhere and
    pulled in another train.

2.  My husband and I toward the end of our vacation were already think-
    ing about our next trip in November, and we wanted to look into the
    Grand Plan.  When we went up to the Concierge desk at the Floridian,
    another concierge woman sat beside the original and they started talk-
    ing to each other about what had transpired during their personal time
    over the past couple of days; playing "catch up" in other words.  We
    just stood there for a minute, not wanting to interrupt.  At the same
    time, they both looked up and said, "Yes?!"  My mouth, I think, 
    dropped a bit at their rudeness, and I asked them if we were inter-
    rupting their shift change or something.  They both said no.  So I 
    told them we were interested in the Grand Plan (not an inexpensive
    package I might add).  To make this story short, they were very rude
    and abrupt, and my husband and I were dumbfounded.  We'd never experi-
    enced that at Disney World before.  As we walked back to our room, we
    both said that things seemed to be changing there.  

Don't get me wrong, I still LOVE WDW, but I too wonder if they aren't out-
doing themselves just a bit.  

    Yeah,  I  fell the Disney Co as a whole with Euro Disneyland slated  to
    open  in  a  couple of years, with whats planed for WDW and Disneyland,
    bit off  a  little  more  than  it  could  chew.  Just look at the plan
    opening dates for  the  stuff  at WDW and when they actually opened and
    you see what I mean (kind of like DEC Eng.  schedule slips ;^)).
    
    Part of  the  problem I had stated elsewhere in here somewhere, is that
    not with just  the  contruction  at  WDW,  but with everything going on
    around the Orlando area  (new Hotels, Universal City Tours schedule for
    this fall time etc) that Disney apears to be having a hard time getting
    the quality type of person they  are  know  to  have  as  Cast Members,
    cheerful and efficient.   I'm  glad  I  had gone last time in '87, when
    they only had the shell  to the Grand Floridian, and just broken ground
    for the Studio Tour and Pleasure Island (Norway and Typhoon Lagoon were
    announced a few months later).  If  I  had  gone  in  the last months I
    would of felt I wasted some of my money, since there would of been very
    little new, and having been there previously on several ocasions.
    
    But if it wasn't for the new construction, I probably wouldn't be going
    again  in  a  few years (I like to visit other places as well and  only
    have  a  limited  budget,  otherwise I be down there each April ;^(  ),
    hopefully Star Tour will be completed by then.
    
    Claude

    Another reason for the WDW building spree is the takeover
    attempt a few years ago. (And the current US takeover fever.)
    Disney must plow profits somewhere that can not be sold off as
    separate entities. 

    mike

    re: .2
    
       Did you bother to either speak to any Disney management about
    this when you were there or at least write a letter to Disney about
    it after your stay?  I know I would've.  And from past experience
    I believe Disney would want to know!!!!  Hell, if you go back,
    especially if on the Grand Plan, and aren't satisfied you'll most
    likely not go back again.  Disney's success is because of the service,
    the Disney difference, that makes it so special.
    
      To quote Gen. Georges F. Doriot.... "Now, success is only good
    if it's accepted with great modesty and if you realize that success
    does not keep on by itself."             
    
    Regards,

    re: .2
    
    Some of the "niceness" is still ther...  I just got off the phone with
    the ordering people to get my 4-day commerative passports and the
    person was excellent.  I forgot to ask about my Magic Kingdom Club
    discount until late in the call and there was no qualm about retyping
    the information in and they even apologized about the delay.
    
    Further, this person even asked about when I was going down and other
    such small comments.  It's the courtesy you get even making an ordering
    phone call that rounds out the Disney courtesy image.  
    
    George
    68 days and counting...
    

    I think if Disney keeps expanding like it is the quality will 
    surely go downhill. It seems to me that they have too many pots
    burning on the stove which could result in a poorer quality and
    atmosphere.  I hope this does not happen.  Who knows they are the
    people who are responsible for making dreams come true. 
                  

Re: .5

You're right, I'm sure they would have appreciated knowing.  In this 
case, I did not say anything - although I had said that I would.  I'm
a firm believer in letting business people know if they've done some-
thing that I (as a customer) consider unacceptable and/or rude (or if
they've done something extremely well ;-> ).  After all, how can you 
fix a problem if you don't know that there is one?  But, I let them
get away this time....

    After the Form Feed is an article from Amusement Business - the
    International Newsweekly for Sports and Mass Entertainment.  The
    paper is also known as AB or AB Weekly.  The article is reprinted
    without permission of AB.  It can be found in the May 20, 1989 edition
    of AB starting on page 1 and continued on page 19.  It is entitled
    "Disney Growth:  Monopoly Bid or Sound Business?" by Tim O'Brien.
    
    
    Disney Growth: Monopoly bid or Sound Business?
    By Tim O'Brien
    
    Walt Disney World's new Disney/MGM Studios theme Park is expected
    to give Central Florida's tourism business a healthy boost, but
    all eyes are not smiling beyond the Disney behemoth.
    
    National and Orlando-area news media have covered the May 1 opening
    of the $400 million Disney addition with wry skepticism.
    
    The overlying theme to many of the reports is that Disney is trying
    to dominate the market and do anything it can do to get people onto
    its property, then do anything it can do to keep them there, even
    longer than before.
    
    Additional Disney-bashing has centered around the company's needs
    for a large work force and the accompanying need to drain the area's
    work pool.  Several businessmen have claimed that Disney officials
    have stolen ideas from other attractions.
    
    Yet amid it all, not one top official of any attraction in Central
    Florida has come out publicly with anything more than a strong concern
    about the future for the area's second tier attractions.
    
    "Sure, Disney's expansion, especially the Pleasure Island complex,
    has the potential to hurt us," said Chad Martin, vice president
    of the marketing for downtown Orlando's Church Street Station. 
    "There's a big black hole over there that we all have to market
    against."
    
    Martin said Church Street Station's business from May 1-8 was "Up
    over last year by about 20 percent.  But this week isn't really
    indicative of what's happening.  It will mainly depend on where
    the major movers (bus tours) head with their crowds in the future."
    
    "They (Disney) have done a lot of good for Central Florida, but
    it's getting a little ridiculous.  They're copying everything. 
    No matter what they say, I don't think all of this was what Walt
    (Disney) had envisioned."
    
    ON THE OTHER HAND
    
    Casey Conerly, director of public relations at Sea World of Florida,
    Orlando, said, "Our feeling is that Disney will bring more people
    into the area and that has to be good for us."  She added that Sea
    World's product is "so unique" that people who come to Disney will
    still find time to visit her attraction.
    
    She saw "no negative effect on business" at Sea World during the
    first week of operation at Disney's new park.
    
    "It would be foolish for any of us to think Disney isn't trying
    to keep people on its property.  We're all business people and would
    probably do the same," said Mark Miller, owner of Orlando's Arabian
    Nights dinner attraction.
    
    "They don't want to be a mecca in the middle of a slum.  They want
    us to prosper.  And I think we will.  Their nighttime entertainment
    complex  is actually going to help other nighttime attractions.
    The more things there are to do at night, the more interest there
    is to do things at night."
    
    It's business as usual at Boardwalk and Baseball, Baseball City,
    where attendance was up the week following the Disney grand opening.
    Whether Disney's expansion will hurt the park's gate remains to
    be seen.
    
    Asked if his gate will suffer, Dick Howard, president of the park
    said, "Two critical factors will determine that -- how much time
    and how much money visitors have."  
    
    He feels that families with limited time and /or money might tend
    to stay on Disney property, but those with more of both will experience
    other attractions.
    
    "The enormous attention Disney is bringing to Central Florida will
    accrue to our benefit because we're here.  We'll get our share if
    we pay attention to our business and our print," Howard said.
    
    He said it would be easy for some to use Disney as an "enormous
    excuse" for not doing their jobs properly.
    
    "We don't get paid to moan and groan about Disney.  It's really
    not a matter of what they are doing, it's a matter of what we're
    doing that's going to count in the long run."
    
    Disney's 56-acre Typhoon Lagoon, which officials are calling the
    "world's largest water thrill park," is set to open in June, about
    10 miles from the established Wet 'n Wild park.
    
    George Millay, president and owner of Wet 'n Wild, told AB that
    he's "Not dancing in the streets(about the opening of Typhoon Lagoon),
    but over the long pull, I don't think we'll take a major hit."
    
    Millay said how much his business will be hurt is still a big question
    mark.  "My belief is that there's plenty of business down here for
    all of us.  I like to say that we cater to the Third World, while
    Disney caters to the WASPs."
    
    His clientele is mostly local, another factor that makes him believe
    he won't be hurt.  "We have a better product and intend to get much
    better over the next three to four years.  We have rides and
    attractions on the drawing board that are five times better than
    anything we now have."
    
    According to Millay, this will be the first time he has had "formidable
    competition" in Orlando.  "We've been well aware of what's about
    to happen for the past two years and have spent a lot of time on
    how we are going to handle the competition.  And it's not just the
    waterpark competition we have to contend with.  Any attraction that
    competes for the tourist's time and dollars is our competition."
    
    Attendance was "a bit soft" during the first week of May at Cypress
    Gardens in Winter Haven, but Ken Smith, president of that 54-year-old
    facility, said he wasn't sure of the exact reason.
    
    "In the long run, Disney's expansion probably won't hurt us, but
    the dilution of the market at the beginning probably will."
    
    The same people who have been "crying wolf" every time Disney does
    something are at it again, Smith said.  "If we had rolled over and
    died every time we were supposed to, we certainly wouldn't have
    lasted 54 years" he told AB.
    
    Lynn Hamilton-Foos, director of marketing at Gatorland Zoo, one
    of the area's oldest attractions, said the gate there was up by
    more that seven percent during Disney's gala opening.  "But I attribute
    that more to improved marketing than to anything else."
    
    
    THE EXTENDED STAY
    
    State officials say the average stay for tourists in the Orlando
    area is five days, while the average in-state visit is 11 days.
    Dick Nunis, president of Walt Disney Attractions, told AB the average
    length of stay at Disney property hotels is a bit more than three
    days.
    
    Nunis is not to concerned about the critics who claim that Disney
    is trying to keep people on its property for a longer time.  "That's
    the name of the game," he said.  "The longer we can keep them here,
    the more business it will bring us."
    
    Is it a monopoly?  "The great thing about the United States is that
    we are allowed to compete.  Competition is great and we love it,
    and think others should, too," Nunis responded.
    
    In essence, Disney is being criticized for seeing a business potential
    and going after it, according to Abe Pizam, directory of the Dick
    Pope Sr. Institute of Tourism at the University of Central Florida,
    Orlando.
    
    "I think what they (Disney) are doing is good business practice,"
    he told AB.  "It;s a legitimate business practice that all businessmen
    would do.  It's a simple case of vertical integration."
    
    Pizam said people should judge Disney's actions on whether they
    are moral, legal and good business practices.  "The answer to all
    three is yes," he said.
    
    "The real concern should be to what extent Disney's aggressive growth
    will hurt the other businesses in the area.  The answer can be seen
    in recent history," he added. 
    
    When Epcot Center opened in 1982, people were just as concerned
    as they are today.  "Look at the results," Pizam said.  "local
    attractions have been doing very well since Epcot opened, riding
    on Disney's coattails."
    
    When Epcot's Living Seas exhibit opened four years ago, people said
    it would hurt Sea World.  The following year, Sea World had its
    best year ever.  "So, you see there is no supporting evidence for
    the complaints we are now hearing," Pizam said.
    
    As for "stealing" ideas, Pizam said that is more a matter of innovation
    than theft.
    
    "Disney wants to grow and is constantly looking for ways to do so.
    When they see another idea, they look at it and decide if it fits
    into their vertical integration.  If it does and they think they
    can do a better job with it, they'll go for it.  Again, that's good
    business practice that most successful businessman follow."
    
    He defends Disney's vertical expansion, but questions the validity
    of its Pleasure Island complex, the proposed Boardwalk attraction
    and the possible regional shopping mail (AB May13).
    
    "That's not vertical," he said. "Sure, they are in the entertainment
    business, but their main thrust in the past has not been nighttime
    club, bar, and lounge business."
    
    The Walt Disney World complex is Central Florida's largest employer
    with 28,600 year-round employees and and additional 6.000 part timers.
    That total of 34.600 is way ahead of the second-place employer,
    with 13,384.
    
    The hottest spot at Disney these days is the employment office.
    The new $10 million "Casting Center" greets about 2,000 prospective
    employees a week (Disney doesn't hire people, it casts them).
    
    Nunis told AB that Walt Disney World doesn't have problems getting
    good help.  He also said his facilities serve as a good training
    ground for the entire area.
    
    "I can't walk into any restaurant or hotel in the Orlando area and
    not see at least one person who have worked for us.  They come to
    us, get experience, and then move on to higher-paying positions
    elsewhere.  Need I say more?"
    
    The major impact of Disney's hotel and hospitality expansion on
    the community is the labor force.  "The small hotels and motels
    can' compete with Disney for employees.  They pay and benefits are
    better and the idea of working for Disney is glamorous for many,"
    said Pat Stolz, director of the Central Florida Hotel/Motel Assn.
    
    "You can't really criticize a business for operating in its own
    best interest, and that's what Disney is doing.  Their new hotels
    are based on business decisions," Stolz said.
    
    "Yes, Disney is quite aggressively building guest rooms, but so
    are many other hotel properties in the area.  But it's Disney that's
    getting the criticism, which I feel is unjust.  The others seem
    to want Disney to quit building hotels while they continue building
    theirs."
    
    Regardless of complaint, Disney continues its construction.  Currently,
    about $1 billion worth of expansion is underway.  Several new
    attractions within the three park complex will be opening soon,
    and by 1993, Disney will have 16,500 guest rooms on its property
    -- about 25 percent of all rooms now in the Central Florida, and
    more than either Baltimore or Seattle now have.
    
    

    
    Joel, that article was thought-provoking to say the least....
    
    It really burns me when corporations/business/whatever employ the
    "Hey, you're too good; how can we make any money if you're making
    better stuff than we are?" type of crying and whining.  It's always
    the people who *know* they don't have (or have the drive to make) a 
    better product that want all the successful people to come down to their
    level.
    
    Nunis was right.  If what WDW's doing is legal and moral, more power
    to them.  Free enterprise is what *gets* us products like WDW - from
    people who decided that if we make the "best," people will buy the
    "best."  Wet 'n Wild's "Third World" analogy rung very true to me -
    that's what I've always thought of *most* (and, of course, this
    is my opinion) other attractions around Orlando - second rate and
    not worth my time.
    
    I do hope WDW does not complacent, though, and that they heed the words
    of the polls hinted at in Newsweek.  The number one reason people
    like WDW and think it's the best never had anything to do with the
    rides - when asked, people always commented on the service and people,
    the attention to detail, the cleanliness, and all the little things
    that most other attractions bypass.  It's not just product - it's
    delivery.

SEAN/BEER=LABATTS

    Gee, just  when  you think construction is winding down at WDW and it's
    time to finally  make  your  trip  preperations  (so as not to feel you
    should of waited) from the USA TODAY article I posted in 155.3
    
    'Not to be outdone, Disney World in Florida has scheduled a Sunday press
    conference to announce a major expansion there, too.'

    I can't wait to see beside the Hotels opening this year early next year
    and the announced dubling of  Disney-MGM  to  include  the Muppets etc.
    what else they want to add.
    
    Claude_will_it_ever_end?

    re: -1
    
    Just a wild guess, but this announcement may have to do with the
    upscale shopping mall that they have been talking about building.
    
    Any other guesses?
    
    Moe

    Rep to <<< Note 77.12 by CHET::BEAUCHESNE >>>

>    Just a wild guess, but this announcement may have to do with the
>    upscale shopping mall that they have been talking about building.

    As if  the  shops  at  the  WDW  Village aren't upscale enough?  Yeah I
    forgot about the  Disney  Boardwalk  shopping  area  planned around the
    Swan/Dolphin hotels.
    
    Claude

    I'm in favor of expansion as long as it doesn't include more hotel
    space. The more things they can build to spread out the crowds is fine
    with me.
    
    Mike

    My parents we're at WDW yesterday (they live in Florida and have a
    season pass), they said in MGM's Back Stage Tour they were showed the
    stage being set for the announcement of Star Tours opening, when Eisner
    would sit etc.  They said they couldn't remember the exact date,
    sometime next week, 16th I think.
    

    Well, The Disney gang is at it again.  
    
    This weekend Michael Eisner announced the plans for a fourth theme
    park, seven new hotels, and a Soviet Union pavilion in Epcot.
    
    I heard it on the radio this morning, so maybe someone else can expand
    on this.
    
    Well, Maybe I'll hold off any future trip for an extra year or more so
    that I can take in all the new sights.
    
    Steve
    

    In addition, to -.1, according to the evening news:
    
    A fourth theme park.  No details.
    
    A Soviet Pavillion in EPCOT which will focus on space exploration.
    
    There will be a total of 29 new attractions.
    
    There will be a Splash Mt. in the Magic Kingdom.
    
    MGM will double in size.
    
    Seven new hotels, including two under construction.
    

    I recieved my Disney annual report yestarday.  The following is a
    sampling of what was in it:
    
    The Port Orleans Resort (1991) and Dixie Landings resort (1992) will
    bring another 3,056 rooms, raising the total to 19,000 rooms at WDW.
    Both will have an oldtime Mississippi River theme and will be
    moderately priced.
    
    They mention a Boardwalk nighttime entertainment faclity and hotel
    along with the Dolphin, Swan, Yacht, and Beach resorts, raising the
    total to 5 hotels there.  The boardwalk may have a large, traditional
    roller coaster (there is a picture of the model).
    
    With the completion of the convention facility, WDW will have 600,000
    sq ft of meeting facilities.
    
    Combined with with Diseyland and Euro Disneyland, there will be a total
    of 30 hotels with 26,000 rooms.
    
    Guests from the Northeast US and Eastern Canada remained the most
    frequent visitors.
    
    Overseas visitors have increased and now account for 9% of attendance.
    Heavy marketing in the UK has incresed atendance at WDW. Following the
    success of the London Sales office, they will open a marketing office
    in Frankfurt early in 1990.
    
    They have a Muppet 3D fims in the works for WDW.
    
    Disney is the world's largest consumer of fireworks (not surprising).

    Well with  all the recent construction coming to completion and the way
    the prices went  up, I can just imagine what the admission will be like
    in a couple of years ($35/day), and what  a  night  in  the Poly (never
    mind the GF/SWAN/DOLPHIN  etc)  will go for ($225 average?) when Disney
    completes the Disney Decade,  (see what Joel put in topic 159).  When I
    went in '87 the Disney Inn most expensive room was $140/night, now that
    doesn't  even  get  you the least  expensive  room  (not  counting  the
    off-season).  CBR here I come in '92.
    
    Claude_821_days_or_so_to_go_saving_those_pennies_now.

    CBS This Morning broadcasted from TMK in Orlando and in between a few
    numbers from the Dapper Dan's right near "The Hub" they talked with
    many people regarding Disney and it's impact on Orlando and FLorida.
    
    I was amazed at all the negative attitudes. People in Orlando complain
    about the congestion, overloaded schools, high real estate prices, etc.
    
    Also some people were saying that they still are trying to recover from
    the last 20 years of WDW and Eisner's 90's plan makes them cringe.
    
    I guess what seems to be happening is that all of what's been going on
    with the construction of all the new WDW attractions and such is
    working towards keeping visitors in the parks as much as possible
    during their stay in Orlando.
    
    Here are two examples of what they mean:
    
    Fact: Boardwalk & Baseball has closed because it cannot compete with
    WDW. I guess I don't understand how anyone could even consider building
    an amusement park so close to WDW. B&B is closed for good. MAybe they 
    should have kept it Circus World.
    
    Fact: Over the last two years the number of Sea World visitors has been
    faltering. The attraction recently changed hands and hopefully new
    management will provide the energy to work towards bringing the numbers
    up to where they were a few years back.
    
    One person from the Orlando Chamber of Commerce said that there is a
    fear that Pleasure Island will do a job on Orlando's night clubs. I
    haven't heard anything about Church Street Station having problems so
    who knows if he is correct in that statement.
    
    In Summary, it is felt that Disney is trying to build up to the point
    where their 4,5,or 7-day visitors will have so much to see that they
    will never get a chance to leave the Disney property and spend their
    money somewhere else in Orlando. I was puzzled by this and said, "Hey
    Mister, I think they've already accomplished that."
    
    I guess I was sort of confused by all the comments I heard and would
    have thought that many people would say good things about Disney and
    how it changed their lives for the better down there. Surely it has
    created jobs and I would think that taxes (never mentioned) paid by WDW
    would have gone towards a lot of needed services.
    
    By the way, it was NEAT to see the camera pan down Main Street, U.S.A.
    LIVE with noone around. They also showed some clips from various
    scenes, one of which disturbed me a bit...I saw a lot of Seagulls in
    TMK. Is this a problem?
    
    Mike

Re: last

>    By the way, it was NEAT to see the camera pan down Main Street, U.S.A.
>    LIVE with noone around. 

I remember seeing it like this *myself*!  Back around the 10th anniversary
year when they would let WDW resort guests in about an hour before anyone
else and we went in early and ate breakfast at the Crystal Palace (most of
the attractions weren't open).  But I have pictures of Main Street from
the dedication plaque to the Castle with barely a sole on it!

George

    ref. .20
    
    Circus World was closed long before it became B&B.  I'm not sure if
    Circus World existed before Disney.  My guess is they didn't and that
    the use of the word WORLD was a copy  on Disney.
    
    Faltering attendance at Sea World doesn't suprise me either,
    considering *CONDITIONS* at the park.
    
    I've never been to either Circus World or B&B but I have been to Sea
    World enough to believe I have an *informed* opinion.
    
    To have a business *GROW* you must invest in the upkeep of the old and
    plan new items of interest.  I think Disney has done this to the nth
    degree.  Sure they raise rates but I believe the vacationing public
    understand value for what they pay.  Trams and vehicles are constantly
    being repaired/replaced.  The bus fleet is less than two years old(as
    told to us by employees), New monirail trains are currently being
    installed.
    
    I mention these things because they are the *FIRST* things you see and
    use at Disney and the serve to form a lsting impression.
    
    The opposite is true at Sea World.  The trams are rusting, noisy,
    unkept.  The odor at the park is offensive.  If I'm asking too much for
    a park with animals, I guess I can be told, "don't go" but I've been to
    Zoo's very large and relatively small, with a larger variety of animals
    and have not see, smelled the same problem.
    
    I may be *partial* to Disney but remember we (DEC) value CUSTOMER
    SATISFACTION to the point that we believe customers will pay a premium
    price to have DEC.  I beleive the same is true for DISNEY.
    

    They also showed a bit of Thunder Mountain, Body Wars, The Indy 500
    cars, and talked about Cinderella Castle.
    
    They kept on showing live shots of people gathering on Main Street. I
    got a bad case of "'itis" every time they showed those people inching
    up to the rope.
    
    Tomorrow they will concentrate on MGM. I heard that Good Morning
    America will be in Fla. next week but heard Tampa, not Orlando.
    
    Mike

>    The opposite is true at Sea World.  The trams are rusting, noisy,
>    unkept.  The odor at the park is offensive.  If I'm asking too much for
>    a park with animals, I guess I can be told, "don't go" but I've been to
>    Zoo's very large and relatively small, with a larger variety of animals
>    and have not see, smelled the same problem.
    
That's not the impression I got in January. When did you last go? Sea World
is a completely different experience to WDW. Where else can you watch penguins
at play for an hour and not notice that the 60 minutes have gone by? The
closest WDW comes is the Living Seas (almost two hours for that one!) but
even that is a very different environment.

Gavin

    I have pictures on no one on Main Street USA and a picture of a
    Disney truck on Main Street.  I'll have to put them on the copier
    and see how they come out.
    
    Joel

    Re: .20
    
      Tell me about the gulls !!!! I just came back from a week in WDW
    and the gull situation was terrible. I thought they were filming a
    remake of the "Birds"!! Both the MK and Epcot had gull problems. As
    would be expected, the area impacted most were at outdoor dining areas.
    On more than one occasion I had birds swoop inches from my head. I 
    was actually more concerned with getting dumped on than anything else.
    
      One thing that puzzled me was the fact that I saw NO gulls at Disney/
    MGM !!! Maybe some of you FLA natives can shed some light on the gull
    situation. Is this something that happens inland during this non-beach
    time of the year in Orlando ??? 
    
    George
    

    RE: the Gulls...
    
      Now that it was mentioned I do remember a number of them when we were
    at the park this past November.  My sister-in-law got dumped on by one
    of them when sitting in Fantasy Land while waiting for us.  Seeing it
    was her not my wife or I, I didn't mind it at all ;-).
    
    Tony
    

    Yes, the gulls were horrible, especially at Fantasy Land right around
    the food court area/Dumbo/20000 Leagues.  I was there in January
    and we literally had to duck to avoid being flown into.  And, yes,
    -1 BomBs AwaY - I got hit while finishing my lunch.  Really grossed
    me out.
    
    The MK was the only place we were really bothered by them.

  My mother always told me that being hit by flying gull s*** is a sure sign 
  of good luck to come.
  
  Robin_30_days_to_go

    Disney is doing a good job of keeping anyone staying on the grounds on
    the grounds. MGM is probably just good enough to get someone to skip
    Universal. Living seas is probably just good enough to get someone to
    say skip Sea World. Pleasure Island just barely good enough to skip
    Church St. But good enough is not enough if you stay outside the
    property. Then you can skip MGM, Living Seas, Pleasure Island Typhoon
    Lagoon and do the better individual parks. Disney seems to be sinking
    to McDonald's level, well known with a so-so product that is consistent
    and brand name recognition that gets people to choose it over other
    choices that may be better. 

    As far as the bad comments by the local residents, many have an axe to
    grind, Disney wants to shut them out of the market for the tourist
    dollar. For those that work for Disney the pay at the parks is rumored
    to be only 10� more than other parks which pay almost minimum wage but
    are less demanding of their employees.  (While Mike Eisner pulls down
    $200,000,000/year in salary and stock bonuses.) And the local towns
    always seem to be fighting with Disney to pay more for the
    infrastructure required to support the tourists.  

    mike

    
    Re:-1
          I don't agree with the opinion of the last noter. I do not
    find  that I skip Sea World due to the presence of The Living Seas.
    I do not think the two even compare as experiances. When I return
    to Disney in the fall, I will no doubt visit Universal Studios,
    the presence of Disney/MGM studios does not even raise a doubt in
    my mind that Universal is a must see attraction. I felt, and still
    feel MGM is an inferior park, as far as doing justice to the movie
    biz, Universal studios in CAL is on a much higher level than Disney/
    MGM, IMO. Pleasure Island maybe considered a substitute for Church
    St but  Disney is not locking the gates at night, If you stay on
    sight all of your stay than that is your choice. 
    Not to be taken in the wrong context I do understand and agree with
    .30 statement in general about Disney sinking,(but mcd's I don't
    know).
    My obersvations over the past nine years of being a frequent Florida
    guest tell me the quality is sinking. I sum it up like this:
    
               1) Magic Kingdom, was a truly wonderful concept and still
          is classic Disney in design and implementation. It is as if
          you can feel the spirit as you enter the park, the monorials,
          ferry boats, that anticipation.......fantastic.
    
               2) EPCOT Center, The first big let down for me about
          EPCOT was the fact that you just walk right in, nothing like
          the MK experience. The park has genius in design all around
          but, it seems out of place, concrete, Glass, and Glitter monoliths
          abound as giant comercials for ATT,EXXON,GM,KRAFT,GE,MET,UT,and
          Kodak,(I may have missed one or two corporate sponsors!!)     
          I never had "the Magic" feeling in EPCOT, and after reading
          about W.Disneys' EPCOT center original concept I was not pleased
          with what was finally put into place. I believe EPCOT center
          to be a great place to visit, but it really sums up what I
          am trying to say in that EPCOT is a marvel of modern technology
          But, at the same time it seemed Disney lost some "magic" and
          came down a notch on the service scale.
    
          3) Disney/MGM studios, Construction and layout are nice (more
          in line with MK) BUT, the place is tiny and totally inadequate
          to handle the Florida crowds, Disney has announced expansion
          plans but my point is these expansion plans should have been
          the original plans. More expensive sitdown(reservations) restau-
          rants are here but, the bottom line is they opened a major
          Theme park with only 6-7 attractions but, with plenty of restuarants
          and gift shops galore. No magic here either, just high prices.
    
          It seems that greed has entered the picture at WDW in a big
          way. 
                                         -Rob
    
    
    
    
    

    Re: Gulls
    
    Does the Gull problem wane during the Summer months?
    
    Mike

    The gulls are a major problem during the winter months.  Many birds
    migrate to the South during the cold northern winter months.  They
    usually disappear during April.  
    
    In order to help control the birds, there are nylon lines strung
    around the food locations.  The birds cannot see them and hit them.
    This confuses them and helps to discourage them from flying in the
    area.
    
    There have been stories of cast members that have gotten so upset
    with the birds that they purchased french fries and got the birds
    into a feeding frenzy (kind of like what happens with sharks)  The
    cast members then threw alka seltzer in the area and the birds ate
    this too.  What is supposed to happen is the solid turns to gas
    in the birds stomach.  The bird cannot burp and as a result, the
    stomach explodes killing the bird.  Custodial then cleans up the
    bird and there is one less bird for the guest to worry about.  I
    don't know just how true this story is, but it is one of the rumors
    that you hear as a cast member working there.
    
    I know that I spent a lot of time cleaning up after the damn things.
    I had friends that had to climb on top of Mr. Toad's Wild Ride and
    scrub down the roof because the unsightly bird residue was visable
    from the Skyway.

    What got me really upset is when I asked guests not to feed the
    birds because of the problems they caused and then they would continue
    to throw food to the birds.  The real satisfaction came when the
    birds either pecked them and drew blood, left a package in their
    food, or dropped a bomb on the person directly.  God, would I liked
    to have said, "Of course, you feed the bird, you get your just deserved
    reward."
    
    Joel

    One of the unfortunate things I discovered is that one of the
    by-products of WDW expanding too fast is the supply of *good* cast
    members.  They don't seem so choosey.
    ed
    

    If it's not too late, I would like to reply to .31.  I agree very
    strongly with you in regards to the disappointment of walking right
    from the parkinglot into the actual park.
      
    First of all, Walt himself, emphasized the importance of removing the
    guests from the distraction of the real world by transporting them some
    distance from their cars before they enter the park.  Appearently,
    someone, somewhere forgot this, or they decided (for the sake of the
    almighty buck) against it.  I have a great book on Epcot (its planning
    and construction) that I noted early, in another topic area.  In the
    original plans for Epcot Center (which, by the way, is call Epcot
    Center, because all of what the tourist call Walt Disney World, is
    known as EPCOT - Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow - to the
    people at WED, and the area Epcot Center occupies is more or less what
    they consider the centeral point of WDW) it was to emphasize education
    and enlightenment. 
     
    The original designs were much more spectacular then the results
    (especially in World Showcase).  However, what Disney soon encountered,
    when they started the construction in 1979, is that money is an object,
    even for Disney.  Of course when Eisner entered the picture, he turned
    Epcot Center into a commercial mecca.  For example, countries help
    support the construction of pavilons because Eisner has guaranteed an
    increase in their tourism as a direct result of their involvement with
    Epcot.
    
    I noticed when I went to the Disney/MGM Studios an even larger
    disappointment in being able to actually see part of the road and the
    incoming traffic during a section of the studio tour!  Walt would have
    flipped.  Walt never liked the idea of the guests seeing the park from
    the parking lot.  Can you imagine what he would have done if he could
    have seen part of the road from inside the park.  Perhaps, the
    executives at WDW need to ask themselves "What would Walt do"
    more often in planning expansion.
    
    John

    re. -1
    
    Eisner didn't come to Disney until 1984 or was it 85.  Anyway, he
    didn't have anything to do with the construction of most of the
    pavillions at EPCOT Center.  The idea of sponsors came from Walt when
    he said that he wanted to showcase technology and business when he
    first decsribed what his idea of EPCOT was all about.  So we can't
    blame everything on Eisner.
    
    I too agree that Walt would have shuffled locations of parks and
    parking lots around in order to create a split between the real world
    and the fantasy that the parks create.  To me the ferry boat ride
    across the 7 Seas Lagoon over to the Kingdom is a real treat,
    especially when I playing tour guide for some friends.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Joel

    
    
    Michael Eisner came to Disney in 1984 as per request of the Bass
    Bothers, who at the time had just saved the Disney Empire for a
    possible buyout and brakeup.  One of Eisner's first moves and this is
    well described in a Business Week issue I have at home (I'll enter the
    issue number and date later) was to "Commercialize Epcot Center."  In
    1985 (perhaps it may have been 1986), Epcot Center was divided as sold
    in limited partnership to raise money for future expansion (including
    the Disney/MGM studios).
    
    	I don't mean to sound to harsh on Eisner.  He did what he felt he
    had to do to keep Disney from falling into economic ruin.  However, I
    think now that Disney is financially sound (that's quite the
    unstatement) they could avoid being overly commercial in Epcot center
    at least.  However, Norway (the most recent addition to World Showcase)
    is the most commercially oriented pavilion yet.  Example, large
    companys in Norway, paid just to post their logos in the waiting area
    for the second half on the Malestorm (please forgive misspellings)
    attraction.  
    	
    	Don't get me wrong.  I love WDW, and respect Eisner for what he has
    done.  I think his greatest success has been in revitalizing the
    Disney studios.  I only hope that Disney doesn't fall pray to over
    commercialism.
    
    John
    

    The Business Week issue I made reference to in reply 77.37, is March 9,
    1987.  The article is titled "Disney's Magic:  A Turnaround Proves
    Wishes Can Come True."   Following comes from the article:

    	"The company is also building new parks and hotels and is on the
    prowl for a major entertainment acquisition.  To help pay for those
    plans, Disney has agreed to sell its Arvida Disney Corp. real estate
    unit to JMB Realty Trust for about $400 million in cash and notes. 
    Disney brought Arvida in 1984 for about $200 million in stock.  And
    later this year, Disney is expected to raise an additional $1.2 billion
    by selling its four-year-old Epcot Center in Orlando to a master
    limited partnership.
    	"Some of that money will finance the continuing development of
    Disney's still-vast Florida holdings, including several new hotels and
    a $300 million combined movie studio and tour attraction.  Roughly $150
    million will buy a 17% stake in the new European Disneyland.  But the
    rest, Disney officials say privately, is earmarked for at least one
    major entertainment investment by 1990.
    	"The new Disney has its critics, of course.  A source who knows the
    company well argues that Eisner and Wells have worked no fancier magic
    than to raise prices at Disney's theme parks.  Admission prices had
    failed to keep pace with inflation, and the new management hiked them
    by 45% over two years.  The higher prices alone accounted for 59% of
    the company's total revenue growth of $455 million last year and fully
    94% of the earnings growth of $158 million.  'It didn't take a take a
    lot of brains,' this source says, 'to see that the company's biggest
    asset was being incredibly underused'"

    The article is quite long and interesting, and, on the whole, very
    favorable towards Disney and Eisner.  If any one knows any more concern
    this "master limited partnership," I would be very interested.  The
    article avoided any details on the matter.

    John 

    It sounds interesting just because it's Disney, but (as my tax return 
    has shown for the past several years) there is no longer any tax advantage  
    in owning a limited partnership. My last one is liquidating next month, 
    and I can hardly wait.  

    If Disneyland had expanded to the extent of WDW, maybe Anaheim would be
    a prettier place. Now it so congested with motels, hotels, fastfood
    places, cars and smog and crime it's incredible. Definitly a fine
    example of what unplanned rapid growth can do to a landscape. Too bad
    they didn't buy up more of those orange groves back in past.
    
    Dave