Conference koolit::disney

    
    A good amount of information regarding Fort wilderness [and maps
    of FW] can be found in the notesfile WORDS::RV
	hit KP7 to add to you list.
        
    ed
    

    Although I go camping  every  now  and  then (tenter, and considering a
    trailer now) I have yet to  stay  at  Fort  Wildernes (I live in NH and
    would rather fly to Fl),  but  have  enjoyed  some of the  benefits  of
    staying  there.   

    On my past trips I've gone swiming at  both  River  Country (soon to be
    surpased by Typhoon Lagoon) and the Beach on Bay  Lake,  rented  boats,
    walked around the gamp ground, ate at Pioneer Hall etc.   and from what
    I've seen and that of one of the other campgrounds in  the area (off of
    I4) this is a real nice place to camp.  There lots  of  shade and thing
    to do, fishing, swiming,  boat  rentals,  trail  rides  etc.  plus like
    staying at the resort you  never  feel  like  you leave the magic.  The
    campsites  are not crowded onto each  other  like  some  of  the  other
    campgrounds, and I would recommend staying here if your into camping.
    
    Claude

    I took my son to WDW last summer, and we drove with my parents in
    their motor home.  We stayed at FW, and it was wonderful!!! The
    camping area, is unbelievably CLEAN, and really nice.  There are
    a lot of things to do, without even going over to Magic Kingdom,
    or Epcot if you didn;t want to.  But of course we did.  This is
    also a much less expensive way to visit the park (rather than staying
    in a hotel room).  I highly recommend it to anyone with a camper.
     If you don't have a camper, they have cabins to rent, that are
    nice and much cheaper than the hotels.  Again, I highly recommend
    it, and as soon as I can, I want to go back and stay there again!

    I was jsut thinking over some of the funney stuff while at the
    campground..  If its your first time, forget the alarm clock, they
    provide one..In the form of a rooster who gets up at the crack of
    dawn, usually under your window.  
    
    I got to know one of the workers,  he realed a story that hda happened,
    a boy runs up to the store and says to come quickly as there was
    a RAT_TURTLE at his sight.  Not knowing what the boy meant, they
    went fully equipped to find something.. and that was an armadillo!
    I guess the discription was kinda right.
    
    The first stay at the campground, each night I would hear this load
    funney music at about the same time. The third night there when
    it started, I ran until I found it. It was the parade on the loogon.
    ed
    

reply to < Note 14.4 by WORDS::BADGER "Follow the Sun Stream" >

>    I was jsut thinking over some of the funney stuff while at the
>    campground..  If its your first time, forget the alarm clock, they
>    provide one..In the form of a rooster who gets up at the crack of
>    dawn, usually under your window.  

    At the  Treehouse  they  provide  you  with  Peacock's instead, and you
    should here the sound they make, kind of like a smoker hacking.
    
    Claude

>================================================================================
>Note 14.3                      WDW Fort Wilderness                        3 of 5
>DPDMAI::MATTSON                                      10 lines  27-FEB-1989 12:20
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                           -< THE ONLY WAY TO GO!! >-
>
>    I took my son to WDW last summer, and we drove with my parents in
>    their motor home.  We stayed at FW, and it was wonderful!!! The
>    camping area, is unbelievably CLEAN, and really nice.  There are
>    a lot of things to do, without even going over to Magic Kingdom,
>    or Epcot if you didn;t want to.  But of course we did.  This is
>    also a much less expensive way to visit the park (rather than staying
>    in a hotel room).  I highly recommend it to anyone with a camper.
>     If you don't have a camper, they have cabins to rent, that are
>    nice and much cheaper than the hotels.  Again, I highly recommend
>    it, and as soon as I can, I want to go back and stay there again!
>


I'm planning on going to WDW the end of April with my pop-up camper so I 

would be interested in costs of FW if you have them. Thanks

    re: .6
    
    Magic Kingdom Club member rates for 1989:
    (subject to change and all that)
    
    
    			Off Season�	Peak Season�	Value Season�
    
    Water & Electrical	   $21		    $31		    $26
    
    Water, Electrical &
       Sewer		   $25		    $36		    $31
    
    Water, Electrical &
       Sewer (loops 100-
              500, 700)	   $29		    $39		    $36
    
    Trailer Homes	  $112		   $160		   $140
                                                             

    These rates do not include tax.  There is an additional charge for
    each adult after the first two per campsite/trailer home.

    � Off Season: Jan. 1, - Feb. 11, 1989
    		  Aug. 13 - Dec. 18, 1989

    � Peak Season: Dec. 18 - Dec. 31, 1988
    		   Feb. 12 - Apr. 15, 1989
    		   June 18 - Aug. 12, 1989
    
    � Value Season: Apr. 16 - June 17, 1989

================================================================================
Note xx.xx                                                              xx of xx
AKOV88::THOMSEN                                      16 lines  10-MAR-1989 12:53
                               -< Ft Wilderness >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  
       
    The last time we went to WDW we stayed at Fort Wilderness, and it
    didn't seem off the beaten path to me.  They have a lot of family
    activities ( like the camp fire, nightly movies, hay rides).  
    We are not really 'camping' people.  But we stayed in one of Disney's
    trailers and it was just like staying in any of the hotels.  In
    fact my wife and I were talking about our next trip and both
    want to stay there again!
    
    I agree  that once you stay on property you are spoiled!  Each of
    the different hotels offer different things, it's just a matter
    or what grabs your personal taste.

    
    Dan
                                                                               

    Ok you  other  Disney-holics,  heres your chance to give me some advice
    for a change ;^).
    
    I'm currently comtemplating a trip to  WDW  this summer and last Friday
    had  made  tentative (can always cancel) reservations for a campsite at
    FW for  ten nights at the end of August (Moderating this conference has
    done me in,  and  I've  got  the urge to go ;^)).  For those of you who
    have been down there  during  that time, I know that August it tends to
    get into the 90's on  occasions  (reading the various guides books) but
    is it a Dry or Humid 90's?    Also  the  books  list  it as part of the
    rainny season, did you find it to rain a lot?
    
    I'd be driving down and using my soon to have tent trailer,  and  since
    it doesn't  have an air conditioner, I was concerned as to just how hot
    it  gets in the summer.  I've been to San German PR on business  during
    that  time  but being a island the trade winds took care of the heat at
    night.
    
    Claude
    
    BTW.  The operator said  they  still  had  some campsites available for
    August, in case others out there are thinking about it.

Personally, we  prefer  August  visits.  The only problem we have is that it is
very crowded.   However, it is so hot that you take it easy, go for a noon time
swim and enjoy the people while in the crowds.  Evenings are comfortable.

When we checked in  at  our  rented "camper" (35' mobile home) in FW, the radio
said it was 125F - a record, but not by much.  Thankfully, the check-in is done
under a carport/tool_booth since we were  in  a drenching downpour (they called
it liquid sunshine).  The rain stopped in a few minutes.

We have found that the  temperature normally is in the upper 90's at midday and
you could/SHOULD plan on at least  1  thunderstorm  a  day lasting about a half
hour.  Of course, it is so  HUMID,  you  need  the  thunder  to  tell you it is
raining :-).  Do not plan on escaping  a  downpour by jumping into a ride - 90K
other people are also trying that.  If rain  bothers  you, BRING YOUR OWN light
rain gear - Disney sells plastic pull-overs (available in almost every shop) at
ridiculously high prices.

Dress  lightly wearing loose fitting cotton shirts and shorts.  Forget  sandals
and cheap "sneakers";  get quality footwear with light cotton socks.   You need
the foot support and the heat will not bother your feet.  First  time  down  in
August, number 1 teenager decided to go with fashion instead of the above (what
does Dad know?); he spent the $$$ and bought the quality footwear the next day.

re air  conditioning.    It  is  all  relative,  I  know  people who can sleep,
comfortably, in a  tropical  rain  forest  at midday in summer;  I cannot.  The
rental campers have airconditioning  and  we cranked them up all night.  I have
talked to campers who could not believe that the temperature and humidity could
stay so high all night long.   At least bring a box fan you can run all night -
the breeze may help.  Sleeping late will not be a problem if you are in a tent,
however, since you will be awakened by the birds on Discovery Island as soon as
the sun shows up (3:30-4:00).

Although FW is  the  only_way_to_go  when  you have a family, next time we will
stay in one of  the  hotels  (on  site) for more convenience in getting around.
Getting from FW to anyplace  using  Disney transportation is time consuming (we
usually drove over to EPCOT).

Enjoy,

Dave

    RE: .9
     Claude,
    
        My wife and I went to FL in August of '86.... Sure, it was Hot
    and Humid, but it wasn't as bad as it was at Logan Airport when we
    left.  I would take it anytime.... just put yourself in the proper
    frame of mind.  Think Disney, Disney, Disney and then think DEC,
    DEC, DEC and the magically the humidity will diappear!!!!!!!
    
    Tony (Whos_also_going_this_summer)

    We've been in August 5 times I think. It's when we usually go.
    The heat doesn't bother us too much and we don't find the humidity
    that bad. In the afternoon after the (almost) daily short downpour
    it cools off a bit as well. I like going in August but than again
    I use a blanket all summer long in NH (two blankets or an electric
    if my wife turns on that air conditioner :-))

    I've found that even in August it has usually cooled down enough
    that sleeping is not a problem. A tent were ventilation is so
    good (read drafty :-)) it should be even less a problem the a
    hotel room would be without air conditioning.

    More people stay on lines during the rain then used to but a lot of 
    people do run for cover. Especially at the Country Bear Jamboree.
    We usually bring a small umbrella that my wife carries in the big
    bag she brings to carry all the stuff she buys. It is usually plenty.
    More people run for cover at EPCOT than at the MK. But there more
    of the lines are undercover already so it's not a big help.

    This year we're going in November. I've only been in August and
    January so I haven't a clue as to what the weather/lines will be
    like then.

    		Alfred

    Thanks for the info, The heat during the day doesn't bother me, it's at
    night, I'm one  of  those people that can't sleep with covers on in the
    summer even when I  have  the air conditioner running, the wife however
    is another story, the warmer the better.

    During the heat of the day I plan to be in a pool 1:00-3:00 ;^)
    
    As I said, this is  a tentative trip, were not sure if we'll be able to
    afford this trip buying the camper,  as  well as another vacation up at
    lake Winnie in July and all (that's one of the reasons we'll be driving
    and  staying  in FW versus our usual fly down and staying in one of the
    Hotels).  However  we  decided to reserve just in case it looks like we
    can swing it.   After  all it's only costing me $27.04 to reserve and I
    can cancell up to 48 hours in advance you can't go wrong.
    
>    This year we're going in November. I've only been in August and
>    January so I haven't a clue as to what the weather/lines will be
>    like then.

    Alfred,
    
    If I could go in  November  (taking  the kid out of school is a no go),
    that is my favorite time of  the year to be at WDW.  We went in '82 the
    first 2 weeks in November, and the  weather was just great, nice enough
    on most days were you could still wear shorts but at night it would get
    a little cool and long pants and a possible  sweatshirt is needed.  The
    rainny season is usually over, and the lines are short.
    
    Claude_who_decided_to_check_in_while_enjoying_his_spring_vacation

    

    
    Well seeing were on the topic of weather conditions.  I will be
    taking my Motorhome down to FW during Thanksgiving '89.  What are
    the conditions like during late November.  
    
    Re:  A few back.....
    
    	Someone mentioned that using the Disney transportation from
    FW is rather slow and that they would drive over to Epcot instead.
    Was this because it was very busy during the month of August and
    they couldn't keep up with the crowds or is it like this all the
    time.   I hadn't planned on towing my car to FW, cause we were going
    to use the disney Transportation system.
    
    Mark

    November is a fairly quiet month at WDW with the exception of
    Thanksgiving weekend, which is very busy.  It then gets quiet again
    until the Christmas holiday vacation.
    
    I'm booked to stay at FW for 5 nights, leaving the Tuesday before
    Thanksgiving, hoping to avoid the crowds.  I hope I'm early enough.

re transportation from FW to wherever...clarification:

First, we  have always rented one of the "campers" - actually, a 35' mobil home
with air and color TV.

On our first two trips, the rental  campers  were  in  a loop very close to the
Pioneer Hall bus stop.  That means we  were  about  a 5 minute saunter from the
bus stop and another couple of minutes to the dock at FW.  Entirely acceptable,
in fact, we turned in our rental car the second  day of the first trip (we flew
down, of course).  The first trip was also before Epcot.

On the second trip (drove down - the only way if you are on a budget), we found
that to get to Epcot from FW, you had to take the  bus  to the TTC then another
bus or monorail to Epcot.  We quickly found out that the best  way  to  get  to
Epcot  was to drive over.  At the time there was a morning "launch"  to  MK  as
well as an earlier launch to the Poly V for breakfast.

The last time there, the rental camper sites  were  far  from  the  bus stop (a
polite nasty-gram from your favorite stockholder to CEO Mike).   We had to take
the "auto train" bus (same as travels around parking lots) to the bus stop, the
bus to the TTC, etc.  It was far easier to  drive  over  to EPCOT - faster, not
crowded and never had to wait because a bus just pulled away.    When  we  were
going  to  the  MK,  we  would  drive over to the CR or Poly  V  and  park  for
breakfast, hop the monorail to the MK.  Whenever it was convenient, we took the
Monorail back to the hotel and drove back to FW.  Much faster.

If we had a RV on a campsite that was near Pioneer Hall end of FW, we would not
use the car.  If we were faced with the option of towing a car down,  we  would
not.  The inconvenience was not all that great.

Dave

    RE: .16
    
    FYI - "auto-train" bus = Tram
          
    Also, the 35' trailers have been obsoleted...and replaced with the
    larger 42' mobile home...at higher $$.
    
    We spent a week at 2326 last October B^), Fleetwood Pass; Shawnee
    Bend...(aka:2300 loop).
    
    We had reserved a 35' model, but were told on arrival that they
    had recently been replaced with the 42' model.  After some talking
    we got the 42' for the 35' price B^)...
    
    Although we had a rental car we used WDW transportation, except
    when we went to the Shopping Village.  I didn't know we could park
    at the other resorts.  Would have made things easier...oh, well...
    I'll keep that in mind for 2 weeks in 1993.  The busses and connections
    get tedious after the 3rd day...but I do LIKE riding the Monorail!
    I won't like the propsed 60% standing, 40% seated version though.
    
    1643 days, but who's counting ? 
    
    Gary

rep to < Note 14.17 by DNEAST::ROBBINS_GARY "Rainy day person..." >
    
>    1643 days, but who's counting ? 

    Gee Gary, it must be tedious counting the days off the calendar? ;^)
    
    Claude whose only  got 100 days and counting for this summer, 1079 days
    and counting April '92

a tip...

An  earlier    reply    commented    about    each    loop    having   its  own
showers/toilets/laundry.  On  our  last day we usually check out early to avoid
the rush.  The  pass to get in to FW is valid all day, however.  We get in that
extra day's worth of sunshine then go back to the showers, clean up, change and
head home.  Much better to  spend  the  next  24  or so hours driving in clean,
comfortables.

Dave

    
   Hello everyone,
    
        Could anyone please post here the Telephone # for reservation
    to WDW Fort Wilderness. 
    
    thanks,
    
    Ricardo
    
 

    We got notice of the price increase for next february, $46/night!
    MKC discount included.  Now thats OUTRAGEOUS.
    esp for a 3/5 rated campground.
    ed
    

    At the rate WDW has been raising prices in the last few years (Greed?),
    as compared to how inflation and raises have been of late, I might just
    have a hard time justifing staying on property next time ('92) ;^(, the
    Disney Magic is starting to run out in this department.
    
    Claude

rep to < Note 14.23 by WORDS::BADGER "One Happy camper ;-)" >

>    esp for a 3/5 rated campground.

    Ed,
    
    Which campground  directory  rated FW 3/5?  

    According to my '89 Trailer  Life  dir.    it  rates  FW 10/10 out of a
    possible 10, and I thought Woodalls rated  it  5/5  out of a possible 5
    when I looked in the local bookstore.
    
    Claude

    I don't think you can go wrong with FW and I don't see why for a
    3/5 rating.  The price is high but the facility list goes on and on:
    
    Level shaded sites w/ Picnic Table, small loops to insure closeness
    to comfort station, comfort station with Washer/Dryer House Phone
    Pay Phone and Restrooms, Each loop (or combo of loops) has a playground,
    Each playground is equiped by FW with basketballs, volleyballs or
    whatever, trams to transport within FW, buses leaving to TTC/MGM/EPCOT,
    boats leaving for TTC/CR/MK, Sandy Beach, 2x Swimming Pool with Game
    Room and Snack Bar, Marina, Restaurant, Buffeteria, Bar, Dinner Shows
    and Character Breakfasts, Nightly Movies, Various Rentals, Horseback
    Riding, 2x Full Store and Gift Shop, Kennel..
    
    ..doesn't sound 3/5 to me!
    
    George
    

    As discussed in the RV notesfile, the 3/5 rateing is mine.  I used
    Woodall's rating system, although Woodall still give FW a 5/5.
    
    What gets me is dirty bathrooms and a swampy campsite.  The sand
    is not real sand [lord only knows what it is], full of ants.  Some
    sites never dry out.  You can't ventry outside of the campsite without
    laying dollar bills in front of you to walk on.  As to the dirty
    bathrooms, we generally avoid them as we have full facilities in
    our motorhome.  However, there is no excuse for the filthy bathrooms
    and there are a lot of other cxampgrounds that seem to be able to
    give their guest a cleaner facility.  How do they do it?  And the
    size of the bathrooms is an issue.  Not big enough for the number
    of folks using them at peak times.
    
    
    What makes it nice, and why I'll still stay there is the convience.
    I just want to turn the motor off and not drive anywhere until its
    time to leave.  There are a lot of off-site campgrounds that are
    better campgronds, don't have the transportation conviences.
    the $46/night approaches the Carribiean resorts $69/hight fee.
    Ya, I'll be there in Feb.  but the outragous fees certainly don't
    make me happy.

    just my opinion, just my rateing,  not an E ticket here.
    your mileage may vary,
    ed
    

    Your comments about FW really amaze me.  As a "first-timer" to 
    WDW, one of the areas that impressed me was ... the cleanliness
    of the bathrooms in MK, Epcot, MGM, especially with the numbers
    of people who frequent them during any given day!!  It sounds
    like FW is not taken care of like the rest of WDW!!
    
    Carla
    

    
    
    	In all the times that I've been to FW, both as a camper
    	and as a visitor, the bathrooms have been very, very clean.
    	Not dirty at all.  Perhaps it's the area of the campground
    	you stayed in.
    
    	We always stay in Creekside Meadow (I used to be in an
    	Explorer post) and the rest rooms were always clean.  What
    	I ask is how they can keep THAT up with hundreds of kids
    	running around all day?!
    
    	Tigga~~~ who suggests maybe Jellystone down on Sand Lake Rd.
    

    I've stayed at FW enough times to know what campground I stayed
    at.  I also do enough camping so that I feel a little confident
    on how to rate campgrounds.  Little things that other campgrounds
    employ are missing at FW, i.e mats outside the shower to step out
    onto.  Without that, dirt, etc build up after many showers.
    And, it is built in a swamp, so what to expect.
    I'm not saying its not nice, but 5/5, no.  We seldom spend time
    on site due to its limitations.  but with the rest of WDW at
    your doorstep, whos complaining [except for the outragoeus price,
    that is].
    BTW, I rate Jellystone up the road that you mention higher than
    FW, except for convience.
    ed
    

    This note could probably go on forever with "I liked it" and "I
    didn't" responses.  Everyone has their own personal preferences,
    and sometimes a minor event is what sticks in your mind out of the
    whole experience.
    
    We've camped at Ft. Wilderness 3 times now, staying close to two
    weeks each time, and so far everything has been great.  However,
    I remember riding around different areas of the campground, saying
    "I'm glad we didn't get a site in this loop" for various reasons.
    
    In order to make this note more informative and helpful to future
    visitors, maybe we can be more specific about what we did or did not
    like about different areas of FW.  How about rating the loops you've
    camped at? (see below).  You can ask to be placed in a certain
    loop/area when making reservations.  Although they say they can't
    guarantee this request, we've had no problems getting the loops we
    wanted. 
    
    For those who haven't been to FW, let me take a shot at describing the
    campsites themselves.  Each site has a paved area, like a driveway, for
    parking your vehicle/camper, plus a smaller "sandy" area of the end of
    your driveway.  Ed is right on key about the "sand", it certainly isn't
    sand.  It looks like a clay absorbant material, commonly known as
    "kitty litter" or "speedi-dri".  One thing's for sure - it's dirty,
    which you will quickly discover if your kids play in it.
    
    Each site has water and electric (50A service, with every type of
    outlet imaginable).  Most loops also have sewer hook-up as well.
    In addition, every site has a BBQ grill on a stand, and the world's
    heaviest picnic table.

    Sites are arranged around roads called "loops", and each loop or set of
    adjoining loops contains at least 1 "comfort station", an air-conditioned 
    building with restrooms, showers, laundry room, ice machine, and pay
    phones.  Most loops also have some type of play area, such as
    basketball, tether(sp?) ball, and/or a full playground. 
    
    As Ed mentioned, FW is built on/in a Florida swamp, and it's pretty
    mushy in some spots.  However, we've always found the sites and
    common-use areas to be built up and very well maintained.  But you
    can't just go hiking thru the woods there (except on marked trails).
    
    Here's what I had in mind for rating the loops:
    
    1000 loop, Racoon Lane:
    
    Description:  Directly across the street from the Meadow Trading
    post.  About 25 campsites, fairly close together.  Sites usually
    occupied by large RV's.

    Advantages:  Convenient location, meadow recreation area with store,
    pools, tennis courts, bike and canoe rentals, arcade, etc., is an
    easy walk.  Bus stop served by brown-flag bus (you stay dry when
    it rains, cool when it's hot, warm when it's cold out as you travel
    within the campground).
    
    Disadvantages:  Lots of noise around 5AM as trucks pull up to the
    Meadow TP.  Not much isolation between sites, you'll see several
    neighbors.  Comfort station usually crowded, since it serves two
    loops.

    
    2000 loop, Spanish Moss Lane:

    Description:  Isolated, located beyond Fleetwood Pass.  69 campsites,
    water and electric hookups only.  Mostly tent trailers and tents
    end up in this area.

    Advantages:  Sites are larger and better seperated than most other
    areas.  Lots of trees.  2 comfort stations on the loop, never crowded,
    always clean. Very quiet area.  Loop road is long, good for kids to
    ride bikes without straying too far from campsite.
    
    Disadvantages:  On silver-flag tram route.  Ride the tram when it's
    40 degs and raining and you'll know why that's a disadvantage.  Long
    ride to Pioneer Hall.  The loop is long, and your campsite may be
    a looong walk from the bus stop.
    
    That's it for my experiences.  Any more?
    
    /Don
    
    

    Thanks Don for the great idea.
    
    100 Loop, Bay Tree Lane
    
    Near Settlement Trading Post, FW boat launch and beach.  Near river
    country, transportation circle.   my favorite loop.
    
    I can't think of any disadvantages other than it being a prime campsite
    for prime prices.
    
    200 loop, Palmetto Path
    
    a little further walk from all of what Bay Tree Lane offers.
    
    500 Loop, Terry Trail
    
    Its charged as a 'prime' site, HOWEVER,   this is one of those swamps.
    If it rains, you will be underwater for the rest of the week.
    It is a LONG walk to anywhere and is not on the bus stops.
    
    1400 loop Little Bear Path & Big bear path.
    
    Its close to the campfire program, bike barn and swimming pool.
    Not to far to the meadow trading post.  right near a tram stop.
    My #2 choice, esp if your with small kidos who like to go to the
    campfire show.
    
    ed
    

When we were first there, I asked  about  the  sand  because  it  did  not look
"right".  I was told that the "sand" is actually crushed and ground sea shells.
It seems WDW felt that the overall feeling of  grit  and grime is less with the
shells than with sand.  

I agree.

    
�   I was told that the "sand" is actually crushed and ground sea shells.
� It seems WDW felt that the overall feeling of  grit  and grime is less with the
� shells than with sand.  

    Yeah, I remember it being like crushed shells.
    
    I'll tell you one thing, though.  It's a bugger to pound tent-pegs 
    into!  :^)

SEAN/BEER=LABATTS_who_has_tents_but_no_campers  

                <<< INDMKT::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DISNEY.NOTE;2 >>>
                                 -< DISNEYANA >-
================================================================================
Note xxx.x                        Camp Wilderness                      2 replies
SCOLOX::GLIDDEN                                       4 lines  26-JUL-1989 16:01
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    Can anyone tell me anything about Camp Wilderness, the campground
    at Disney World?  Is it just for families?  If anyone has stayed 
    there I'd appreciate any information at all.  Thanks.  -Nancy-

                <<< INDMKT::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DISNEY.NOTE;2 >>>
                                 -< DISNEYANA >-
================================================================================
Note xxx.x                       Camp Wilderness                          1 of 1
NITMOI::WITHERS "So shines a good deed in a weary wo" 7 lines  26-JUL-1989 16:41
                           -< DIR/TITLE=WILDERNESS >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The name is Fort Wilderness and there are some other notes dicsussing
    it's merits.. so DIR/TITLE=WILDERNESS should find it for you.  
    
    George
    
    Ps: Sorry I don't know the exact note number.
    

We stayed at FW in the trailers June 29 - July 5.  For our situation it was
the best solution (5 Adults and 4 Kids).  We asked for and got two
side-by-side 6 person trailers.  The 6 person configuration has a pull
down bed in the living room, sofa, and two chairs.  A kitchenette with
stove, oven, microwave, dishwasher, refrig, toaster, and a small set of
dishes and pans.  Full bath.  Bedroom has double bed, bunk beds, and a sink.
There is a grill and picnic table outside. Also phone, color TV, A/C.
This worked great for us; we had breakfast and snacks in the trailer before
leaving.  Put the three teenage girls together with my sister and her
husband.  What a relief!  We were in the 2600 (Moccasin Trail) loop I think.
Short walk to Bus, and a less crowded pool nearby (walk to).

If you stay at FW I recommend taking the launch if going to MK, blue flag
bus to Ticket and Transportation center to get the MR to EPCOT, and the
black/yellow flag to MGM.  The brown flag bus or tram (FW local service)
takes you to the right place to catch the above.

    Hey! We wuz neighbours. We were on the 2600 loop from 30th June
    to 14th July (2648 to be precise). Perhaps you saw us, 2 adults
    2 kids with wide open eyes and mouths, very pale (To start with!),
    filming anything that moved - rabbits, squirrels, golf carts etc.
    
    That was a slick move, getting the girls out of your hair, but how
    did they manage? One (only?) negative with the trailers is the lack
    of storage/hanging space for clothes, especially for extended stays.
    (For reference - Lounge - storage unit about 18 inches wide, three
    drawers at bottom, then cupboard with hanging rail for shirts etc.
    Bedroom - Wardrobe about 5 feet wide, hanging rail, top shelf, small
    rack on one side. Bedside locker. Roll-out drawer under bunk beds.
    Bathroom - Sink base has drawers and a cupboard. Another set of
    cupboards, usually containing spare towels etc. Kitchen - 2 double
    top cupboards, double cupboard in sink base, three drawer unit,
    then single cupboard.) Three teenage girls with their (usually)
    humongous range of clothing must have been cramped!
    
    Mike B. 

I don't know how they managed.  They were all in the bedroom and I was
afraid to look in there.  My sister and Brother-in-law slept on the
pull-down.  Since the girls took over the bathroom he had to take his bath
in a paper cup and I don't think he or my sister slept much.  One thing
about the trailers is that you can make a little more noise without
disturbing the neighbors as would be the case in a hotel.  We saw a lot
of people who looked like your description of yourselves.  The only thing
I would add is how tired they looked.  Especially on the brown flag at 11:30
at night.

Marty

    
    
    Hi - We're planning a trip to Disney World early November/late
         December, 1989.  We want to stay at Fort Wilderness, but have
         never been there.  We will be pulling a pop-up tent trailer,
         and we're a "dual income no kids" family.  That's the background!
    
         My question is this:  Is there a particular loop/lot you would
         recommend to us?  It is more important that we be closer to
         WDW transportation than family activity areas.  Also, I would 
         like to know if we can drive to one of the big hotels and park,
         then take the shuttles to monorail entrances.  Is this allowed
         when staying at FW?
    
         Any other tips for first-timers at Fort Wilderness?  Is there
         something you would do differently the next time?  Thanks for 
         your help, we appreciate it!
    
    								     Nancy
    

    you can find a lot of info re Fort Wilderness in the RV notes file
    WORDS::RV
    
    I consider the 100 loop the best site.  close to all transportation.
    
    site 122 being the very best site at FW
    
    the 1400 loop may be best for kids.
    
    your milage may vary.
    
    You *should* have already made your reservations.  it may be too
    late.  call now.
    
    #ed
    

    RE: 39
           Where to stay at Fort Wilderness all depends on what you
    need the most. If you want to be central to everything (pool,trading
    post,bike barn, ect) you would want to be in or around the 1000
    loop. This is a pretty good area as you have all of the above just
    a short walk away. Pioneer hall and the water launches are not far
    either.
    
        Yes you can drive to the resort Hotels, and park. This is generally
    the way that we do it. We drive to the Grand Floridian,(since it
    is the last monorail stop before Magic Kingdom), hop the monorail
    to the park. When we exit at night we take the motor launch over
    to the GF, it is a nice ride at night and it is not as crowded as
    the monorail.
    
       -Rob
    

     We are staying in a Fort Wilderness trailer home for a week 
     in late April. With four young children, can anyone suggest 
     an area that we might request in order to minimize the 
     distance we have to walk to get transportation to the Magic 
     Kingdom, Epcot, etc.? 

     Thanks. 

     Mark 
     

    We just returned from a five night stay in a trailer home at FW.  From
    what I could see, each trailer loop seemed to be about the same
    distance from a bus stop.  More important, however, is where on the
    loop your trailer is.

    We were in #2658 (Moccasin Trail), which was the third trailer from the
    end of the loop, thus a short walk to the bus.  Similarly, trailers at
    the beginning of the loop were close to the bus.  Those in the middle
    however, had a looong walk.

    Therefore, you should try to get a site at the beginning of the loop, or
    near the end.  See the following diagram:
    
    
                                
                           ||* <--bus stop
                           ||    
                           ||   h_h_h_h______________
           Main Road ----->||  / h h h h             \  <--Typical loop
         (Fleetwood Pass)  ||==                       |
                           ||  \l_l_l_l______________/
                           ||    l l l l
                           ||          
    
                                 h = High Numbered Trailers
                                 l = Low Numbered Trailers
    
    (auto traffic goes one way, counter-clockwise around the loop)

    Re 14.43
    
    Having stayed at Fort Wilderness twice and having numerous friends that
    have done so I second Len's reply. Trailer # 1-15 and 50+ make for a
    lot shorter walks. The other recommendation I would make is to try for 
    either the 2500 or 2600 loop. These are the closest to the FW pool. We
    have stayed in the 2500 loop twice ourselves.
    
    If they give you a choice of a low or high numbered trailer take a high
    because you are less likely to have car headlights shining in your
    windows. I realize that there aren't many car used inside FW but all it
    takes is one just as one of the kids is going to sleep.
    
    Have a graet time. FW is the place to stay (IMHO) with kids.

    
    Could someone provide some information about Fort Wilderness, ie:
    
    - Location
    - Transporation to/from WDW, Epcot, MGM
    - Cost
    - Facilities
    
    Friends and I are planning to drive a Camper down to WDW this March
    and are looking for a convienent place to stay.  I guess the most
    important thing we are looking for is something with transporation
    to WDW, Epcot and MGM without having to drive.
    
    Thanks
    Jon
                                           

Fort Wilderness
    
    >    - Location
 
    right on Disney property, in 'the' world
    
    
>       - Transporation to/from WDW, Epcot, MGM
    
    your choice.  motor launch [boat] to magic kingdom, take monorail
    		to TTC, or BUS to TTC where you can get to any other
		location.
    
    
 >   - Cost
    
    outrageous.  overpriced.  but, and here's where I see value, you
    park the unit and don't have to drive again while you are visiting
    WDW.

  >    - Facilities
    
    all the normal facilities found at campgrounds.  restrooms may be
    dirtier than some campgrounds.  Not enough showers in the morning.
    sewer/water/elect on all rv sites.  very dirty 'sand' on site.
    not a place you'd have young children play in.

    
    other bennies:
    
    o campfire with the chipmonks, nightly sing-alongs, disney movie,
      all 'free'
    
    o trails end entertainment.  just buy the food at outrageous prices,
      or nurse a cup of coffee.    
    
    There are other campgrounds in the area that one can stay at that
    have bus service to WDW.  Fort Wilderness is the most convient.
    For the time we aren't in WDW, we stay at campgrounds outside the
    world.  They are cheaper, cleaner, and as much fun.
    Jelleystone in Orlando is nice.  Fort Summer, also owned by Disney,
    is very nice.  And close to Sea World/Bush Gardens/WDW.
    
    while your in Fort Wilderness, look up the horseshoer, Mr Wade,
    he's a neighbor of ours from Wallingford, Vermont.  He's been down
    there for nearly 20 years.
    
    just my opinion,
    ed
                                           

    I agree with Ed. If you intend to concentrate on Disney, then FW 
    is the place. The site is extensively discussed in WORDS::RV Note 
    17.*, but from a personal viewpoint, we spent 2 weeks there during 
    peak season this year, and could have passed the time without ever 
    leaving the campsite. We rented one of their Fleetwood units, so 
    did not have to use shower/restroom facilities, but the restrooms 
    round the pools were clean, and our loop was regularly maintained 
    by men collecting the small amounts of litter and blowing the pine 
    needles off the drives. Compared with a normal campsite, it is 
    expensive, but when you take into account all the facilities and 
    benefits, it becomes more reasonable. It was for us the cheapest 
    way to stay 'On Property', and we are almost certainly going to 
    stay again on our next trip in 1991 (If I can hold out that 
    long!).
    
    Mike in Warrington UK.

    re:  .46
    
    >  other bennies:
    >
    >  o campfire with the chipmonks, nightly sing-alongs, disney movie,
    >    all 'free'
    >
    >  o trails end entertainment.  just buy the food at outrageous prices,
    >    or nurse a cup of coffee.
    
    
    I will be going to WDW in October '90.   I will NOT be staying at Fort
    Wilderness (will be at another Disney property....Carribean Beach
    Resort).  We will be taking our three children along and would be
    interested in the fun activities available at FW for Kids,   as well 
    as the stuff for just Mom & Dad.
    
    Can anyone give greater detail about the "extra-curricular" activities
    in FW that WDW guests can take advantage of?  What entertainment is
    available at what times of the day?  Is there a charge for the
    entertaiament?  Can anyone from the other Disney properties attend
    these activities?
    
    Thanks
    
    David

    Birnbaum has a good section on FW activities.  Many are open to the
    public, all are open to resort guests.

    Is there room and will WDW supply a crib in the rental motorhomes?
    
    -Ken (Planning a trip with a 25 month old)

    The only units available for rental in FW are Fleetwood Trailers, 
    other than that, they rent out sites for your own motorhomes or 
    tents. If the trailers are what you are asking about, then there 
    should be room for a crib, depending on the size of your party.
    
    The accommodation consists of a bedroom with two bunk beds and a 
    double. There is also a washbasin and hanging space in this room. 
    Next is a bathroom with shower over a 'mini' bath, but with 
    sliding shower screens, so it's fairly watertight. The lounge has 
    a pull-down double, couch, two easy chairs and a TV. The kitchen 
    area is separated from the lounge by a breakfast bar with space 
    for two chairs each side.  
    
    If the pull-down is not being used, then there is plenty of room 
    in the lounge for a crib. If all sleeping accommodation is being 
    used (6 people), then there is probably enough room between the 
    double and the bunks, but care would be needed on a trip to the 
    bathroom in the small wee hours.
    
    I'm pretty sure that there are cribs available, but you would need 
    to phone the CRO to confirm, and check whether there is any 
    additional fee. (The FW Folks have always seemed very helpful, so 
    with enough notice, they would probably borrow one from one of the 
    hotels)
    
    I don't have my 'info pack' to hand, I've just filed it away after 
    making my reservation for 14 nights next June (Yipeeeee!), but if 
    you want any more data, I can quickly dig it out.
    
    Regards,
    
    Mike in Warrington, UK.

    As I mentioned in the previous reply, I've just booked 14 nights 
    in FW for 6th July 1991 (preceded by a week in Downtown Orlando 
    somewhere, to try out Universal Studios etc.). The quoted rate was 
    $175 per night (plus tax, and subject to change). If there is a 
    special running, like the one for Annual Passportholders which is 
    going at the moment, does anyone know how I transfer? I booked 
    through the CRO, since there was no benefit using the MKC, but the 
    girl or her supervisor didn't know what would happen.
    
    Would I keep the reservation, but just change the rate. Would I 
    need to make a fresh reservation, and cancel the old one. Could 
    the deposit be 'swung over' to the new reservation.....How can I 
    get a job in Orlando; How old is Cher; Is Dan Quayle really an 
    audio-animatronic figure; What is the answer to Life, The Universe 
    and Everything.... So Many Questions, I'm relying on you guys to 
    supply some answers.
    
    But Seriously, if you can answer the Disney related question, I 
    will be very grateful.
    
    Mike in Warrington, UK.

    OK here goes...
    #1  don't know
    #2  don't know
    #3  Get a Sunday paper and apply for one ;-)
    #4  Cher is older than 21 and younger than Mickey
    #5  Who is Dan Quayle  ;-)
    #6  The answer to life is to be happy and spend as much time in
    the MK as humanly possible.
    #7  The universe and everything... well what can I say....it's big.
    
    :-)   :-)    :-)    :-)
    
    Have fun and enjoy,
    JP

    If there are any specials it is necessary to make a new reservation. 
    The specials have only a certain number of spaces available.  (Note:
    don't cancel your confirmed reservation until you have rec'd written
    confirmation under the special.)  
    
    Once you receive the confirmation requesting the 1st nights deposit
    call them up and have them transfer your deposit from the old to the
    new.
    
    Good Luck and have fun planning.
    Cheryl

    re: .50 - cribs in FW

    Cribs ARE available in the rental trailers at Ft. Wilderness, at least
    I booked one with no problem.  We'll see if it is there when we arrive
    in November.  There is no additional charge.

    re: .52

�   Would I keep the reservation, but just change the rate?  Would I 
�   need to make a fresh reservation, and cancel the old one? 

    It depends on how the the "special" is structured.  Some times they
    create separate "availability pools" from which they allocate rooms. 
    In that case, they would cancel one reservation, and create another. 
    This should be transparent to you.  Make sure, however, that they
    re-book all your dinner show reservations etc. at the same time.

�   Could  the deposit be 'swung over' to the new reservation?

    Yes.  They usually do this.

�   How can I  get a job in Orlando?

    Not much of a problem if you are willing to make beds or sweep floors.

�   How old is Cher?

    Hard to say, but she does have this portrait that seems to be aging.

�   Is Dan Quayle really an  audio-animatronic figure

    No.  Audioanimatrons are able to repeat the same lines without flubbing
    their words.

�   What is the answer to Life, The Universe  and Everything?

    42.

    Thanks to all for the answers, serious or otherwise, they are a 
    great help.
    
    Rathole Alert!!
    
    Len, your last answer indicates a familiarity with the Hitchhikers 
    Guide to the Galaxy. How widespread is the cult, I thought it was 
    only a UK phenomenon? Perhaps you should answer in my Note 220 - 
    Ask Mr Disney Expert, or by mail to avoid corrupting this (Nearly) 
    pure Notesfile.
    
    Life, Don't Talk To Me About Life!
    
    Mike in Warrington, UK.

During my last stay at Disney my 2 year old used a crib at ft wilderness.
We put it in the bed room at the foot of the bunk beds.  It worked out
really well.

Dan

    
    
    	I am looking for a note pertaining to the Hoop-De-Doo Review.
    	I understand it's at Pioneer Hall at Ft. Wilderness.  Can
    	anyone help me out or guide me in the right direction if
    	help is located elsewhere???  Thanx in advance.  I'll be
    	going down to Disney World in mid October with 6 others...
    
    	Tom

    There is information on the Hoop-Dee-Doo Revue in both of the notes
    listed below.  Also check out the trip report notes.

 Topic  Author               Date         Repl  Title
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    39  FRIEZE::FRATTURELLI   2-MAR-1989   129  Dining around WDW
   116   WAV12::NEWFELL      27-JUN-1989    49  Dinner Shows

    
    	Greetings, Campers !
    
    		I'll be heading down to Disney World during the first
    week of October, where I'll be staying on property at Fort Wilderness.
    After reading all the notes in here about the crack transportation
    system in and around Orlando, I've decided not to rent a car while I'm
    in Florida but to take the shuttle directly from the airport to WDW.
    		After that, my only problem is getting around WDW. I know
    that there's a network of buses that circle through Fort Wilderness,
    taking guests to Pioneer Hall -- where they can catch buses to various
    points around the resort. But how often do these buses run and how can
    I tell one from the other ? I know that there's a color coded system 
    of flags, but which goes where ?
    		Also, how cold does it get at night in Orlando during 
    early October ? 
    
    		I'd apprecaite any info you Florida folks could throw
    my way. Thanks again,
    
    				Robespierre

Ahem,
    
Doing a 
    
     DIR/KEY=WDW_TRANSPORTATION
    
reveals

    26   WORDS::BADGER       25-FEB-1989    39  The Monorail system
    62  GEMVAX::VIENS        23-MAR-1989    26  Shuttle to the World?
    79   DEC25::STANLEY       9-APR-1989    18  Timing airport to hotel
    87  GENRAL::HIMES        25-APR-1989    23  WDW Transportation

Then doing a 
    
     DIR 87.*
    
further reveals

    87  GENRAL::HIMES        25-APR-1989    23  WDW Transportation
                .
                .
                .
        INDMKT::GOLDBERG      8-DEC-1989   87.10  WDW Transportation Routes
        INDMKT::GOLDBERG     12-DEC-1989   87.11  Getting Around WDW
    
so looking at 87.10 and 87.11 should answer your questions.
    
Claude

    To answer the specific question about Ft. Wilderness transportation
    routes:

    There are two routes inside the campground, well really three, but the
    third just runs between the parking lot and River Country.  The Brown
    Flag bus and the Silver Flag bus each serve a different set of campsite
    loops and the transportation circle. The transportation circle is the
    connection point for buses to the rest of the World, and is a short walk
    to Pioneer Hall and the marina where you can catch a launch to the
    Magic Kingdom, Contemporary Resort, or Discovery Island.

    When you check in they will give you a map of the campground that shows
    the bus routes.  All the "Trailer Homes" are on the Brown Flag route. 
    The bus schedule varies at different times of day, but at peak times
    they run every 5-7 minutes.
    
    For more information than you ever wanted to know about getting around
    the World, see the notes Claude mentioned in .-1.

>    When you check in they will give you a map of the campground that shows
>    the bus routes.  All the "Trailer Homes" are on the Brown Flag route. 
>    The bus schedule varies at different times of day, but at peak times
>    they run every 5-7 minutes.
    
    Actually, one of the trailer loops (I think 2200) is on both the Brown
    and Silver bus routes.  This is also the only tailer loop which is
    non-smoking so you will be asigned this loop if you request
    non-smoking.  This has the advantage of reducing your average wait for
    a bus.
    
    /Jim Pappas

    Hi guys!
    
    I am planning a six night stay in one of the Fleetwood trailers next
    summer. There will be 4 adults and 2 small children in our party.
    
    What I would like is all the free advice I can get, as this will be my
    first experience with FW.
    
    What loops do you recomend and why?? ie: close to pool- close to trams
    
    Was DW transportation convenient or did you drive yourself around?
    
    Other than Hoop-Dee-Doo are there any other must sees?
    
    Please help, all advice is greatly appreciated.
    
    Thanks
    
    John

    re:  .66
    
    
    See prior replies to this note; there's some good advice.
    
    The advice that I took was to stay in the 2400 loop.  This was close to
    the pool and entrance.  I recommend that when you reserve the trailer
    that request either a very high number in the loop or a very low number
    in the loop.  This will put you closer to the bus stops.
    
    Definitely see the Hoop de doo Review, and get there about 15 minutes
    early.
    
    The campfire program seems like a good thing to kill an evening.  Due
    to the mosquito propblems, it was cancelled while we were there. 
    Similarly, the Marshmallow Marsh Excursion is supposed to be fun (canoe
    ride, roast marshmallows, etc).
    
    Take the water launch to the Magic Kingdom.  It will save you time.  If
    you drive, you can park at the polynesian (adjacent to the TTC).  This
    will save you time when exiting the park in the evening (no standing in
    the line for the TTC monorail).
    
    The beach at FW was mostly abandoned.  If you want a quiet place to
    sun, I recommend that you do it here.
    
    Hope this helps.

    Apart from the Hoop-de-Doo, most of the activities in FW are 
    pretty low-key, and aimed at families/kids (IMO).
    
    Marshmallow Marsh Excursion - canoe trip (you paddle) through some 
    of the canals up to a beach on the lakeside, roast marshmallows 
    over the firepits, gossip with your neighbours (you get to know 
    them real well by soaking them with your paddle!), campfire 
    sing-along (usually one of the Cast Members has a guitar), watch 
    the Water Pageant, and paddle back (There are less people paddling 
    coming back, and you usually end up carrying the younger kids 
    straight back to the trailer and into bed - great!). Very 
    enjoyable, and a good change of pace from a day in the parks. The 
    only negative is the 'bathroom' facilities on the beach - seat on 
    a bucket type, lit by a storm lantern - not good for the more 
    delicate amongst us!
    
    Campfire Singalong/Movie - Sing along to old 'folksie' favourites 
    until Chip'n'Dale arrive, cuddles, autographs, cookie stealing 
    etc. and then a Disney Classic movie. Saw Cinderella, Sleeping 
    Beauty and Lady and the Tramp. Again, nice change of pace to 
    settle the younger ones down before bed.
    
    Other options are the Petting Farm and Blacksmith's Shop, hire 
    bikes and ride around FW, horseback riding from Tri-Circle-D 
    Ranch, eat at the Trail's End next to Pioneer Hall, shop at the 
    two stores, swim at the two pools or rent boats at the dock. River 
    Country is also within FW (sort of) at the Pioneer Hall end.
    
    As I said, I consider it all low-key, but great for a change of 
    pace for families.
    
    The transportation system is adequate, and to the MK it is 
    excellent, but if time is tight, you can save 15-20 mins per trip 
    by driving, especially if you would need to transfer at the TTC. 
    We spent 14 days in FW Summer '89, without a car, and didn't miss 
    it, but we did arrive with a trunk full of food from Goodings 
    (Food from the stores in FW is pricey!). Having said that, we are 
    booked in for 14 nights Summer '91, and are keeping our car for 
    the duration.
    
    As previous noter suggests, request a very high or very low 
    numbered trailer. The Loops are literally that, a loop off the 
    main route, so high or low numbers are closest to the end, and the 
    bus stops. We've requested 2600 loop for next year.
    
    Mike in Warrington, UK.

    Thanks for the quick replies. My biggest anxiety here is convenience.
    We will have a car with us so maybe getting around won't be a big
    problem. 
    
    Mike, you mention your booked at the 2600 loop, why do you prefer that
    loop? I have a small map that is on the back of the ticket book you
    receive from the Hoop-Dee-Doo and it appears that loop 2100 would be
    good only because it seems closeset to Pioneer Hall and Marina. I need
    more input on the convenience angle.
    
    Thanks again.
    
    John

    John,
    
    	    We were on the 2600 loop last visit, and subjectively felt 
    that 24, 25 and 2600 loops were quieter and more thickly wooded. 
    Also, the 'Ole Swimmin' Hole' was directly across the road from 
    the end of the loop, and we felt comfortable about our kids (aged 
    6 and 10 at that time) taking off on their own for a swim. There 
    ain't much in it though, so it's probably a 'comfortable with the 
    familiar' feeling more than anything. (It's also just about the 
    first on, last off stop for the trams, so you got more of the 
    commentary from the drivers. If the standard is still as high, 
    it's an entertainment in it's own right!)
    
    Note that they are requests only, and it is not guaranteed that 
    you will get where you ask for.
    
    Ask away if you want to know more, it's bringing back the 
    memories!!
    
    Mike in Warrington, UK.

    Forgot to ask, when are you planning for?  We'll be in FW 6th - 
    20th July, and I'm always willing to share my beer.
    
    Mike.

    Mike,
    
    The fact that 2600 is closer to the pool is a good seller. Our kids are
    2 and 7, I don't want to have to drag them great distances for a swim. 
    Also being at the beginning of the tram stops is a good idea. Thanks
    
    Our reservations are a month later than yours 8/4/91 thru 8/9/91 so you
    can just leave the beer at the check-in desk :-)
    
    Thanks again
    
    John

    John,
    
    	    I'd gladly leave you a beer, but it doesn't keep does it? 
    I've always believed that it should be consumed on the day of 
    purchase :-)
    
    I assume that you've read this note from beginning to end (!), but 
    if you want further info, see GENRAL::RV Note 17.* This is a 
    discussion of FW from the RV'ers point of view, including some of 
    my early hesitant questions. There is a reasonable map courtesy of 
    Ed Badger, 17.44, which may give more detail than the one you 
    have. Note that there are two pools, the one close to all the 
    trailer loops which has some services (comfort station, restrooms, 
    soda machine) and the other which is more central, close to the 
    Meadow Trading Post (bike barn, golf buggy rental, canoe rental 
    etc.)
    
    Sorry again about the beer!
    
    Mike.

When we were at WDW this past summer a bus driver told us that FW
was going to be refurbished this past fall.
Does anyone know if it was?

Doug

    We stayed in FW during the last week of November.  River Country was
    closed for refurb, and there was some construction going on at Pioneer
    Hall, but the rest of the campground was just as it was the year
    before.

    Just got back from FW.  No major refurb work going on, but much new
    construction on the FW Lodge (new hotel at FW), and what I think was a
    new golf course behind that area.  FW is still as nice as always, hope
    they never change it.
    
    I'll try to write up a trip report as time permits.  Lots of
    construction going on.
    
    Don

Back in August the comfort station in the 1400 loop was completely refurbed.
It was closed during the day and opened for limited use in the evenings.

When we left on the 23rd they were using metal detector like devices to map
out the underground services.  The guys who were doing it said this loop
was going to be worked on (ie digging, etc) and they needed to know where
everything was.  They also said that each loop was going to get the same
treatment.

	-pb

    Tis' 1991..........found this Conference.  Oh How I Love Walt Disney
    World!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    I've been there twice 4 years ago and 9 years ago.  My first time we
    camped outside the park, in Kissamee'.  The second time, 4 years ago,
    we stayed IN THE PARK!!!!!!!!!!  Oh I always will, if I have to sell
    the silverware (just kidding........).  We stayed at Fort Wilderness. 
    We stayed in one of their mobil homes.  What a place, it's like your
    own private suite.  When you've been out at the park and places all day
    and nite, it's so nice to come back to, quite nobody on the other side
    of the walls to bother you.  It has a bedroom with bunk beds on one
    side and a Queen-size bed on the other side. Has a sink to wash-up in.
    Also off the hall-way is a full-bath.  When you come in the door
    there's a full kitchen.  Combine with a Living Room very roomy.  There
    is a Murphy Bed, in the wall in the Living Room Full size.  Some sleep
    4 others sleep 6.  We had the 6. 
    
    Fort Wilderness has 3 pools, Country Jamboree Show/Dinner and Melvin
    the Moose Breakfast.  We got to sit right down front with Donald Duck!
    
    Right off of Ft. Wilderness is Oh!! I cant' ge the right name, well
    it's there Water Park -- full of slides, rubber tubes, a swiming pool,
    nice beach with umbrellas there and full lawn chairs already there. 
    It's a day's worth of relaxation. 
    
    Also there are buses to take all around.  Buses to the conrail to Epcot
    Center.  A boat to the Majic Kingdom.  All is included, expecially when
    your a MKC Member.
    
    At Ft. Wilderness you can rent bikes, horses, canoes, small motor boats
    and they have a lovely beach right on the lagoon.  We stayed there for
    one week and never left.
    
    Now there will be much more to see, we are going, hopefully, next year
    and I hope we can stay two weeks!!!!!!!!!!
    
    The hotels are lovely, I know, but the quite and peace of Ft.
    Wilderness is something we'll go back too.  If you have children they
    match you in a circle, of people with children if it's just a couple or
    you have older children its with them.  We never heard a peep out of
    anyone at nite.
    
    Can't wait to get back..................I hope the economy let's us,
    it's quite an escape for me!
    
    Carol
    
    

    Carol,
    
    Great note....it's been sorta quiet in here and I could sense the
    excitement in your note regarding the conference.
    
    Glad you discovered us but beware 'cause those who frequent this
    conference soon contract a most infectious disease.
    
    Mike_who's_'itis_is_terminal

    Can anyone give me an approximate location and name of the 900 loop?
    
    Thanks, Terry

    The 900 loop is known as Quail Trail.

    My map shows it off the west side Fort Wilderness Trail, the main road
    between the FW entrance and Pioneer Hall.  The entrance to the loop is
    directly opposite the Meadow Trading Post, home of the swimming pool,
    tennis courts, campfire program, and bike barn.  It looks like a pretty
    convenient place.

    The loop backs up to Creekside Meadow.  I've never figured out what
    goes on at Creekside Meadow.  Does anybody know?  I think it has
    something to do with "group camping".  Sounds kind of '60s to me.

    Just for completeness, here are the names of all the campsite loops in
    Ft. Wilderness.  Those marked with an asterisk (*) are considered
    preferred loops, and cost a bit more.  Those marked with a plus (+) are
    where the "Trailer Homes" are located.

     100* Bay Tree Lane
     200* Palmetto Path
     300* Cypress Knee Circle
     400* Whispering Pine Way
     500* Terry Trail
     600  Sunny Sage Way
     700  Cinnamon Fern Way
     800  Jack Rabbit Run
     900  Quail Trail
    1000  Raccoon Lane
    1100  Possum Path
    1200  Dogwood Drive
    1300  Tumbleweed Turn
    1400  Little Bear Path &
             Big Bear Path
    1500  Cottontail Curl
    1600  Timber Trail
    1700  Hickory Hollow
    1800  Conestoga Trail
    1900  Wagon Wheel Way
    2000  Spanish Moss Lane
    2100  Bobcat Bend
    2200+ Arrowhead Way
    2300+ Shawnee Bend
    2400+ Settler's Bend
    2500+ Cedar Circle
    2600+ Moccasin Trail
    2700+ Heron Hollow
    2800+ Willow Way

    RE:14.81 "Group camping"
    
    Thats exactly what it is, large church and school group with a massive
    amouts of tents only. Also thanks for the location info.
    
    Terry

    
    Not sure if anyone has signed-in with this info., I did try to find it.
    
    We have tentitive plans for a trip to Disney World next year for their
    20th Anniversary.  We were there for their 10th and 15th.
    
    Our last trip we stayed at Ft. Wilderness.  What I'm looking for is
    someone who might have price information on the Majic Kingdom Club
    brochure with the regular club prices to stay there and the GOLD card
    prices too.  We are hoping for a week and a half to two weeks.  
    
    I want to see everything!!!!!!!!!
    
    Things are pretty tight financially, but we are hoping!!!!!!!!
    
    This will help us plan and see what we can do.  
    
    Will the prices go up for next year already?  Or are they all set.
    
    Carol
    
    

    The rates for '92 are probably not set yet.  They typically announce
    them around the end of the summer.  You will find the '91 rates in note
    96.20.

    There is no difference in the discount between the cardboard MKC card,
    and the Gold MKC card.  This year they range from 10-30% depending on
    which part of the off-season you go.  Slightly better discounts are
    available to annual passport holders, and stock holders.

    As strange as this sounds, I'm looking for info and opinions on taking
    a youth group to DW at FW.  My Boy Scouts have actually requested a
    trip to there and my committee is taking it fairly seriously (I'm the
    Scoutmaster).  I sort of like the idea but many questions are up in the
    air like :
    
    	o Fundraising (of course)
    	o How many adults to bring, we have about 24 boys
    	o what is cost of "group area" camping.
    	o How to organize meals in this type of trip
    	o Transportation for this size group.  Bus?  Vans?
    	o Does DW mind brown bagging lunches and dinners in the park so
    	  we can cut down on meals, etc.
    	o How much abuse, I mean fun can a Scoutmaster take?
    
    If anyone has done something like this, I need advise.  Thanks,  John

    Rep to <<< Note 14.87 by PHDVAX::MCGLINCHEY_J "John McGlinchey" >>>
                          -< Group Camping Questions >-

>    As strange as this sounds, I'm looking for info and opinions on taking
>    a youth group to DW at FW.  My Boy Scouts have actually requested a
>    trip to there and my committee is taking it fairly seriously (I'm the
>    Scoutmaster).  I sort of like the idea but many questions are up in the
>    air like :

    As the Committee  Chairman for my son's troop, I'll give it a try.  Gee
    maybe that a good idea for my boy's troop ;^)
        
>    	o Fundraising (of course)

    Gee there Car washes, Tom Watt  etc.  basicly if the committee sponsors
    the  idea,  it's up to them to  plan  the  various  fundraising  events
    that'll support this as well asany contigencies.

>    	o How many adults to bring, we have about 24 boys

    Personaly I'd go with about 1/5 boys, what's National's view on this?
    
>    	o what is cost of "group area" camping.

    Don't know.
    
>    	o How to organize meals in this type of trip

    Similar  to  any  camporee/jamboree  depending on the length  of  stay.
    Actually if you have a kitchen trailer that some  troops bring  to  the
    district camporees, that'l be the way to go.
    
>    	o Transportation for this size group.  Bus?  Vans?

    Assuming your driving down, and enough adults  with vehicles going down
    to  transport  the boy's would be the way to go  for  cost.    Although
    hiring a bus/driver would be less hectic etc.  since you'll  all  be in
    one  vehicle  vs  5  or  more,  don't have to worry if all the  drivers
    insurance are at the recommended levels etc that National wants etc..
    
>    	o Does DW mind brown bagging lunches and dinners in the park so
>    	  we can cut down on meals, etc.

    No bag lunches allowed, however it's been done.  Depending on  the time
    of year, you'd want to go back to the site at lunch  time  (heat of the
    day) to eat, swim, catch your second wind etc.
    
>    	o How much abuse, I mean fun can a Scoutmaster take?

    Actually,  if  you  group the boy/adults and they stay together you can
    probably have  a  good  time.    but  if the boys/adults all want to do
    seperate things Good Luck, trying to keep track of every one etc.
    
    What I'd do is plan a rough iteniery and I mean rough like
    
    Sat Morning  Brkfst at site
                 MK
                 Lunch at site
                 Epcot
                 Supper at ...
    
    Down try to pin  a  large group to exact times it won't work unless you
    plan a lot of slack time.
    
>    If anyone has done something like this, I need advise.  Thanks,  John

    Ideas on traveling  with  large  groups  BS  especialy see the scouting
    conference.
    
    Claude

    Would someone be willing to send me a copy of a map of
    Ft. Wilderness??  I do have the map that was entered in the
    RV notes file but a copy from Disney would be better.
    
    It'll be greatly appreciated!
    
    Thanks,
    Karen

    A few quick questions...
    
    What sort of provisions are provided for making coffee in the rental
    trailers?  Drip coffee makers perhaps?
    
    Are extra towels provided for swimming - either at the trailers or
    at the pools?
    
    Do they have the electrical water pageant in December?
    
    Birnbaum mentions a lawn mower tree which sounds really neat.  What
    did you think of it?

    We stayed in FW the end of January 5 years ago (going back again this
    winter!) and yes they had the electrical water pagent.
    
    	If I remember correctly there are drip coffe makers and plenty of
    towels  - and maid service so used ones are daily replaced with new.
    
    George

    re: .90

    There are percolators in the trailers for coffee.  The also supply pots
    and pans and dishes and stuff for six people, a full size stove, a
    little microwave oven, a full size refrigerator, and a charcoal grill
    outside.  There is a dishwasher and detergent.  The Maid will even run
    the dishwasher when they make up the room.  You do have to bring all
    your own food though.

    It pays to collect some extra sugar, ketchup, salt, pepper, etc.,
    packets from a fast food restaurant in one of the theme parks.  Much
    easier than trying to carry it from home, or buying a whole bottle for
    just a week or two.

    There are lots of towels in the trailer, housekeeping will leave extra
    if you ask.  I'm not sure if there are towels at the pools, but most of
    the resorts have them available there.

    The Electrical Water Pageant runs all year round, except when there is
    high wind, or like last summer, too many mosquitoes.  According to
    Birnbaum it makes the FW beach at 10:05 each night, but check with
    guest services to make sure.

    The lawn mower tree is, well... there.  It might have been neat at one
    time, but now the tree has grown so that only a few pieces of metal
    stick out.  It's on the way to the marina and boat dock, so you'll see
    it when your are going to the MK.  Look on the left side of the path.
    It is marked by a small sign.

    Can you fit and are you allowed to set up 2 two-man tents on one
    campsite?
    
    Kathy
    

    Well, I'm answering my own note.  You can set up two tents on one
    campsite.  
    
    Sooooooooooooo, I have reserved a tent site for July 11th '92 for 
    4 nights! I can't wait - this is great!  It was my husband & son's idea
    to stay at FW.  They are avid campers/hikers every summer/fall and
    thought this would be fun.  I'm not to fond of "communing with nature"
    I like room service, but after reading all there is to do there and how
    nice the place is (and the thought that they have real bathrooms and
    showers) I decided it was a nice and cheap way to go!
    
    QUESTION - Which loop should I request since I'm staying in a tent?
    (not an RV or trailer)
    
    Kathy
    

While we were at Fort Wilderness, we were invited to attend a morning session
with various levels of Fort Wilderness management, for our input on how they
were doing at the site.  Also, we were given a brief presentation about future
developments at the campground.

(1) The Wilderness Lodge.
 There are plans (currently awaiting Eisner's OK) to build a 500 room hotel
about � mile round the lake from Fort Wilderness, going towards the
Contemporary [I figure this puts it just past River Country, facing that little
island that isn't Discovery Island!].  This will be "themed" with an old
West/Frontier motif and will be in the middle price range.
 What sounds especially neat is that there will be no parking near the Lodge;
instead, guests will park elsewhere (? perhaps near the current Lobby building)
and will take an  "Oldfashioned" steam train to the hotel!  Yes, Virginia,
they're talking about resurrecting the old FW Railroad!!!
(1a) "Melvin the Moose" Show
 One side benefit of this new development (which, if Eisner says OK should open
in March of 1994) is that they might bring back the "Melvin the Moose" breakfast
show.  Apparently, there are not enough people currently willing to come to FW
in the mornings to make it profitable to run the show; Frank (the restaurant
manager for the site) explained that their typical attendance at the morning
shows was in the range of 20-40 people!  It was obvious that a _lot_ of people
had expressed the desire to get the "Melvin the Moose" show back; Frank is
trying to figure out how to do it successfully.

(2) Wilderness Junction.
 There are somewhat more ambitious plans (currently on hold) to redo the
whole Pioneer Hall/Settlement Trading Post/Tavern/Marina area of Fort Wilderness
as a Western town called "Wilderness Junction".  This would _not_ be a Western
Pleasure Island (Kevin Myers emphasized this) but would be more of a "resort
area" for the campers and people staying at the Lodge.  There would be some
merchandize stores, a saloon (?serving alcohol????) with the batwing doors so
beloved of TV Westerns, a new and somewhat bigger Pioneer Hall, a new restaurant
to replace the "Trail's End Buffeteria", Crockett's Tavern, a bigger "Guest
Services" building and other odds and ends.
 The boat landing (for the ferry boats) would move to the Lodge area, leaving
the FW beach strictly as a marina for the little rentable boats.

(3) Improvements to Campsites.
 They're working on the vine problem, although as Kevin said "those vines will
probably kill us all!"   The 800 (?and 900?) loops were recently refurbished;
the vines were cut away/irradicated (ha ha) and the campsites now have a
concrete slab base (for the vehicle) and a sand/shell pad behind the slab for
tents, picnics, etc.  The sand/shell pad is boxed in by landscape timbers and
the whole thing looks very nice (we stayed on one of the new sites, and it was
great!). Over the next couple of years, they plan to upgrade all the sites.

 
					Nigel

At the meeting, the main speaker was Kevin Myers, who is the General Manager
of Fort Wilderness, River Country, Typhoon Lagoon and all the marinas.

He introduced Frank ??????? who is the restaurant/food services manager for 
Fort Wilderness and Joyce ????? who is the Resident Manager at Fort Wilderness.

There were a couple of other people there, but I don't remember who.

They also asked for comments/questions/suggestions from the floor. Amongst 
the suggestions noted were:
	a. find some way of speeding up the registration procedure, especially
	   as a lot of the guests are repeat visitors.  [as an aside, there
	   was one man there who had been coming _every year_ since the camp-
	   ground opened].
	b. What about the Trail's End Buffeteria? Frank asked why so few people
	   ate there.  Discussion ensued, but there were no real hot points.
	c. With all these new developments, will the charm and peace of FW
	   be lost?  Emphatically NO, said Kevin. Even if the Wilderness
	   Junction plan goes ahead, it will be bounded in the direction of the
	   campground so that you'll still have the quiet and peace once you
	   get away from (what is now) the Pioneer Hall area.
	d. Fix the damned change machines -- they're always breaking
	e. Why lock the laundry rooms at 11:00 pm? Answer: so people don't rob
   	   the various coin-op machines.
	f. Fix the vines!!!!


 So I was wondering... do we as a community have suggestions for how to improve
Fort Wilderness???  We could collect 'em, and mail the more popular ones down
to Kevin Myers at Fort Wilderness; who knows, they may do something with 'em?

					Nigel

    Nigel,
    
    The plans for FW sounds pretty neat, but did they mention whether or
    not accomodations for the Wilderness Lodge would be priced similarly to
    those of the CBR, Port Orleans and Dixie Landings hotels??
    
    If so, sounds like the Lodge might be a fun place to stay with more
    activites nearby than the other "low-cost" hotels.
    
    - Skip

No, the Lodge accomodations would be in the same price range as the 
Contemporary or Polynesian... damn, I wish I could remember the word he used to
categorize 'em.

They will however be cheaper than the Grand Floridian (-:

    Does anyone have any updated info on prices for the Fort Wilderness
    accomodations for renting a trailer, say for 3 nights in Sept. this
    year? My husband and I are taking our 3 yr. old daughter, and are
    looking for the most economical way to go to WDW, i.e. be able to
    make some of our own meals, and also have piece and quiet...
    
    Also, is it buggy there in Sept.?
    
    Any updated info would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks
    Michelle

I'm currently booked at FW in a "Wilderness Home" (aka trailer) during that
rate period for $119/night + tax = 130.90 after the 35% MKC discount.

Not the cheapest room, but if you cook in you can make up the difference, plus
you have the extra space.  It's nice to be able to stay up and watch TV or
something after the kiddos are asleep in the bedroom.

    Wow,
    
    I just got off the phone with the WDW reservation desk and they
    quoted me a price of $170 night, with MKC discount, for a trailer.
    This must be on the high range.  Did you ask for any particular
    loop #? It just seemed a little pricey (?SP).  The total for
    the Vacation Kingdom pkg. for 2 adults and 1 child for a 4 night/5 day
    stay with passes was $1255, which is the high range.  Can I get a
    better deal at FWR, in the best loops i.e.. 2400-2600 range.  
    
    In your opinion, or anyone elses, are the pkgs. the best way to go?
    I will look for my answer elsewhere in the meantime, but thought I'd
    ask while I was here..!
    
    (I was also quoted $919 for the Festival Fun pkg. for the CBR, DL,
    and PO , which goes with what the brochure says. (high range again)
    
    thanks
    Michelle

I think you were quoted the wrong rate.  Super Club Saver dates this year
are Aug 16, 1992 - Dec 19, 1992.  (Guess why my reservation starts on Aug 16.)
Current regular rate for a FW trailer during that season is $170.  Subtract
the 30% MKC discount (not 35% as I stated in .100) and you get $119.

Did you ask for dates in September?  Did you call the MKC Travel Center number:
(407) 824-2600?  It looks like they didn't give you the discount.

There is lots in the other notes that break down the packages and work out
the financials.  Bottom line is if you use *ALL* the features of the package,
then you might get a better deal, otherwise smart shopping and use of discounts
will be the winner.

    Thanks for the input.  We called last night, twice (!), and got
    two more different rates.  The first time we got $130/night, the
    second call went down to $125.  Maybe if we keep calling the rate
    will go down more!  These people don't have their act together, do
    they...???
    
    The $119 is a great price.  We also got a quote for the CBR, PO, DL
    for $104 night or 2 adults and 1 child.  That was pretty good too. So
    now it's a question of "do we want peace and quiet at night, (which
    we love), or do we want more hussle and bussle"..
    
    Are the resorts not as relaxing as say the FW, in your opinion?
    
    Michelle

    I have been to CBR twice during the off season and it was very quiet. 
    I should clarify this;  the grounds and pool and area around the
    individual buildings were all very quiet.  Once you got to the main
    building then it got a little busier.  Can't compare to FW because I've
    never been there.
    regards,
    JP

    Then again, there's nothing more relaxing then sitting on a rocking
    chair in front of the Trail's End during a soft rain.  
    
    George

    Rep to <<< Note 14.105 by SALEM::PAGLIARULO_G "Reality is a cosmic hunch" >>>

>    Then again, there's nothing more relaxing then sitting on a rocking
>    chair in front of the Trail's End during a soft rain.  

    or better  still  is being with a loved one by yourselves late at night
    in the hut  tub  listening  to jazz music and watching the moon at Port
    Orleans.  Or taking  a  latenight  stroll along the Sassagoula River...
    Or ...
    
    you get the idea
    
    Claude

    	Point made Claude.  Different strokes for different folks.  I've
    got to admit a loved one, hot tub, jazz and the full moon does make my
    idea sound like a hard wooden chair in a cold rain.  Don't know how long 
    the relaxing part would last but it does sound nice.  ;-)
    
    George

    I'm about to (try to ) make reservations for my family and another at
    FW.  I have a few questions for previous noters (if they are still
    around) or anyone else who has .02 cents to spare....
    
    re: .94 (from Kathy Jette) 
    
    Did you end up camping at FW?  What was weather and temps like in July?
    

    Kathy ended up at the CBR instead of FW.
    
    Mike

    
    I did not end up camping at FW.  The weather was very hot.  We only
    have small 3 man tents and we feared they would be too hot at that time
    of year.  If you have a popup camper or something - you should be fine.
      Also, the type of "dirt" they have in the campsites isn't condusive
    to the small tents either.
    
    Kathy
    

    Well, thanks anyway!  ;^)
    
    I do have a popup, with air conditioning!  last time (in '91) we went I
    got a FW trailer for $99 a night, so I didn't pull my own trailer down
    there.  But this time we will have to go a little later to accomodate
    the other family that is going with us.  I don't think we will be able
    to afford 2 weeks at the "normal" rate for the trailers.  In any case I
    am planning on making 2 reservations anyway, one for campsite and
    another for the trailers and decide later which one I'll use.
    
    Now we just have to get my wife and the other family to settle on a
    date for this trip and then it's time to call the CRO.  Hopefully that
    will be sometime this weekend! (I can't wait!)
    
    John_who_has_disney_on_his_customer_list_but_was_already_onsite_
    elsewhere_when_they_called_for_a_consultant!  ;-(
    

    I'm staying at FW in one of there trailers with my wife and 2 sons ages
    2 and 4 August 16-22. My question is do they have shuttles to get to a
    major Food chain store that I can load the trailer up for the week
    instead of buying at the Small stores inside and paying twice the
    price?

    
    Disney allow a shuttle to allow you to buy something outside the park?
    NOT!

    Well do they allow people to bring food into the campers from outside
    if they have a car?? 

    YES, they allow you to bring food into the camper from an outside
    grocery store.  They do not promote this activity so they will not
    provide a shuttle to an outside store.
    
    Kathy
    

    hmmmmm, Well since I'll be taking the shuttle from the airport to FW I
    guess I find a 1/2day rental for a car or hope a "neighbor" who has a
    car is going shopping ah??
    
    	Any ideas out there?

    If you rent a car soley to buy groceries, you might not be saving the 
    money you'd want.  Of course depending on your length of stay.
    renting a car at the airport, going shopping then returning it?
    or keeping it for the trip back.  depending on the number of people
    for the shuttle, it may be a wash.
    
    Then there are those people who think its best to have a car while
    at WDW.  I'm not one.  after driving down, I like to park and not drive
    again for a week or two.
    ed
    

    What about taking a taxi to the grocery store?
    
    -sandy
    

    re: .116
    >	Any ideas out there?
    
    Well, you could always move your reservation to the following week
    (Aug 23 - Aug 29) and get a ride from us.  I suppose that's not an
    option though.
    
    Is it possible to take a shuttle bus to the Village hotels and then
    walk to the Crossroads plaza?  I don't remember the distances
    involved but it looks possible based on the map in the 1989 Birnbaum
    guide.  Do any of you know how much of a walk is involved?
    
    I think I'd call the Disney information number and ask them for
    suggestions.

    Ruth's suggestion sounds plausible but I think it's still quite a walk,
    especially in the August Sun.
    
    Also, you won't get a lot of bargain prices at Goodings.
    
    Why not rent the cheapest car you can and work from there?
    
    Maybe you could buy an assortment of cereal boxes and pack them in with
    your luggage. Then all you'd need would be milk or juice for breakfasts
    and you could always pack juice boxes with your luggage.
    
    Mike

    re: .112 et al
    
    How much is the shuttle to/from the airport costing you for two adults
    and two kids??  And how much would be a cheap rental for the length of
    your stay??  As Ed Badger noted earlier, if you compare the cost of
    these, they could be very close.
    
    As to the walk from the Village to the Crossroads, it's certainly
    doable.  When we stayed at the HoJo's near Lake Buena Vista, we walked
    to the Olive Garden, which I believe is a little further, and it's
    nothing compared to a couple of laps around EPCOT... :-)  But then, we
    weren't carrying groceries either.
    
    Maybe after you check in, you could take the shuttle to the WDW
    Shopping Village (or better yet, the last hotel in the LBV "campus"),
    hoof it over to Crossroads, and take a cab back.
    
    - Skip

    Have we defined "groceries" yet? Are we just talking snacks and drinks?
    
    Mike

    re:.112
    
    I know you've probably done a lot of planning...but here is some
    things hopefully you didn't overlook.
    
    You are going for 6 days, this is a good enough amount of time to buy
    one annual pass for your self and whatever other admission option you
    want for the others....if you buy the annual pass and move the trip 
    4 days 20th, you will save 50% off the price of the trailer.
    
    Having stayed in one three times last year I can tell you it is worth
    it...you can save a lot of money on food (usually eat all except one
    character breakfasts in the trailer, about 1/2 our lunches and most
    of our dinners...nothing like a nice cool beer, steak on the grill and
    relaxation before heading for the fireworks).
    
    I'd recommend getting the rental car, I think it will cost you about
    (there is a note for specifics) 80-100 dollars to shuttle your family
    round trip to/from the airport...and with careful shopping a car will
    only cost you a little more. (I've paid $119/week for a full size
    car...use the rental note in this file for more info).  Besides I can
    honestly tell you that you will not want to use the bus/boat system a 
    number of times.  For instance after that nice steak and beer,
    depending on the fireworks schedule we have actually loaded the car
    gone to Epcot, viewed illuminations, left drove to the Contemporary,
    walked over to the MK rode a few rides and viewed the fireworks
    there.  You would have a hard time doing this or other 'expedited
    adventures' with the WD transportation system, which is still great,
    but geared to the general crowd.
    
    Good luck!
    
    -Jay
    

    Good ideas Jay but why did you have to be so convincing and give me a
    case of the -itis with your "steak on the grill, a nice beer, and off
    to the fireworks" comment?
    
    I think your suggestions are solid.
    
    Mike

    re: annual passholder specials at FW
    
    I called the CRO last week some time to inquire about AP specials
    at FW.  The AP slots were fully booked from 8/20 through 8/28.
    Other than that snag, Jay's idea is a great one.

    re: .112 and following
    
    Another option to consider:  rent from National at the airport for one
    day to be turned in at the car-care center.  While you've got the car,
    get your groceries.  
    
    But try to avoid going to Goodings, it doesn't save you much over the
    FW stores.  There is a Publix in Kissimmee: either follow 192E to the
    intersection with 535 (I think) or from Disney take 536 to 535 to the
    intersection with 192 -- the Publix is in a shopping center at this
    intersection and is much cheaper.
    
    To return to the airport, you can either get another one-day rental
    (from the car-care center, drop off at airport) or take the shuttle. 
    But I would suggest that a weekly rental is not much more expensive and
    gives you a lot greater flexibility.
    
    --Jay
    

    Thanks for all the replies. I tried to get the FW thru the MKC club
    but was told all the dates that I was looking for had no openings. I
    went thru a travel agency that could get me into FW for this week. My
    wife is a school teacher and she starts back to school the week before
    Labor day. 
    
    	I'm planning on doing a MAJOR food purchase the day I get there to
    cut down on $ spent inside. Both kids are good breakfast and supper
    eaters so I'm planning most of those meals will be at the trailer. I
    got the round trip shuttle for the 4 of us for $60.00. The cheapest
    car I could find was $129.00 I was going to splurg for the extra $69 to
    get the car but was then told since my kids are under 5 years of age
    they both will require a car seat. I then found out that EACH car seat
    for kids rent for $25.00. (is this the normal range?)
    
    	I'm still not sure what I'll be doing but I have a printout of this
    notes files so I'll look into things.

    The last hotel on Hotel Plaza Blvd is the Guest Quarters Suites.  Its
    about a 1/4 Mile walk from there to Goodings.  I wouldn't want to walk
    it back carrying more that one bag of groceries.  But, if you were just
    looking for another place to shop for goodies, etc. then this
    bus/walk/buy/walk/bus plan works out pretty good.  I've done it a few
    times when I'm there on business.  DEC doesn't like to pay for rental 
    cars for seminar instructors, so this is very familiar to me.

    re: .128
    Perhaps one of those small, metal luggage carts could make this option
    work.  The store could probably supply a box or two to put the
    groceries in so they can easily be strapped to the cart.  I'd call
    ahead to make sure they'd cooperate.  
    
    Another option would be to have the entire family go shopping.  Each
    person could carry some of the loot home - backpacks would be great
    for carrying the heavier items.  I suppose you could always take a
    cart from the store to the hotel plaza so everyone would only have to
    carry stuff on the buses.  I don't think the store and hotel would
    appreciate this though unless you were kind enough to return the cart.
    
    If it were me though, I'd give heavy consideration to a one day car
    rental.  I think I'd rather spend a few extra dollars for the
    convenience rather than use my precious Disney time riding the buses
    and walking to the store.  Do any of you know how many bus transfers
    are required to get to the hotel plaza?  I suspect it's something like:
    1) trailer loop to FW parking lot, 2) FW parking lot to TTC, 3) TTC to
    hotel plaza.  That could eat up a lot of time - ask Kathy!
    
    Ruth

    If you dialed (407) 824-3360 you'd get the taxi service that serves
    WDW and they might be able to tell you how much taxi fare is to get
    from one part of the resort to another destination.
    
    Mike

		

	I am starting to gather information on WDW to go this coming May 1994.
	I heard a long time ago that you can rent cabins at FW.  Is this true?
	And if it is what would the going rates probably be?  Thanks for any
	info.....

	patty

    Cabins?  Well, not really!  They are more like Trailer homes.  They are
    very nice and even have maid service.  They go for $190+/Night (without
    discounts).
    
    John
    

    I will be traveling to Disney in April with two adults and four
    children ages 9-15.  We have reservations in Fort Wilderness, renting a
    trailer.  When I asked about reserving a certain loop they indicated that
    they would write it down, but couldn't do anything.  They said these are
    assigned at check-in.  Is there anyway to reserve a loop and end trailer
    ahead?  Are loops 2400-2600 still the best?
    
    Also does anyone know if you need a Disney pass to get into Pleasure
    Island or is this a separate admission?
    
    			regards,
    			-Bill-
                                          

    >>>Also does anyone know if you need a Disney pass to get into Pleasure
    >>>Island or is this a separate admission?
    
       Both.
    
       The 5-Day Super Duper Pass covers PI.
    
       One evening's admission is $13.95/$11.85 (MKC) last I knew.
    
       Mike

    .134�       The 5-Day Super Duper Pass covers PI.
    
    	As does the 4-Day Super _PLUS_ Pass.  In addition, I believe that
    if you eat at the FireWorks Factory, there's a reduced priced admission
    available for diners for that night.
    
        Don't forget that the shops are open during the day when no
    admission is needed, so can be visited at the same time as a visit to
    the Village Marketplace.

Now that I know when April vacation in 1995 will be (Merrimack, NH,
April 24-28), I'm starting to plan our vacation at WDW during that 
time.

At this time, a trailer at FW is our top choice.  Can anyone that
has stayed in one over the past 1-2 years give their opinions
on the trailors?   

Can they accomodate 2 couples and a 15 year old boy?

How easy was it to use the internal transportation to get to the 
theme parks? Typhoon Lagoon? Pleasure Island?  was the transportation
crowded? on a regular time schedule?  Did you drive vs use the internal
systems?

How accessable are the swimming pools?  the lake beach area that you 
can swim in?

How far off is River Country?  or does this depend on the trailor loop?

How quiet are the trailors at night?

What other FW activities did folks try and how enjoyable were they?

Which trailor loops would you recommend?  Are the ones mentioned 
in earlier notes still the recommended loops?

When you had stated a preference, was Disney able to meet the preference?

Do they have non-smoking trailors?  

They mention a grill is available for each trailor?  is there one and a 
picnic table outside?

any other information or experiences you would like to share would be 
appreciated.  I hope to make a reservation within the next 2-3 weeks.

thanks - peter

I've used the trailers quite a bit during the past 4 years, both with 
my family and alone.  I personally believe they are the best 
accomodations for the money on the property for families and in my 
case, I've stayed there even when it was just myself...

>Can they accomodate 2 couples and a 15 year old boy?

Yes, you will want to state that you want the accomodations with the 
bunk beds *and* double bed in the bed room.  This will give you a 
double bed and bunk bed in the bedroom [also a closet and seperate 
sink in the bedroom].  In the living room there will be a double bed 
that pulls out of the wall [which is comfortable].  I think they will 
charge you an extra $5.00 per adult over 2 that stay in the trailer.

>How easy was it to use the internal transportation to get to the 
>theme parks?

At the end of each trailer loop there is a bus stop for the internal 
FW bus system.  You can take this to the mariner area and take a boat 
to the MK or the Contemporary [and gain access to the inner monorail 
loop].  You can also take another buss from FW to various places in 
the park.  It is fairly easy to use, but I have always opted to rent a 
car anyways in a nut shell I do this because [in my opinion]:

- I use it 50% of the time to gain access to various 
places...regardless of hotel you stay at this is the easiest and 
quickest mode of transportation to some of the park.

- Staying at FW I save money in one hotel room and for say 75% of the 
meals that we eat.  I want access to grocery stores...

- I visit other Orlando area attractions.

>Typhoon Lagoon? Pleasure Island?
>crowded? on a regular time schedule?  Did you drive vs use the internal
>systems?

You have to use the transporation center bus to get there.  So a few 
buses have to be used to get to either of these places.
was the transportation.  They are usually not that crowded, but I like 
transportation on demand :-)

>How accessable are the swimming pools?  the lake beach area that you 
>can swim in?

I've only used the swimming pool and you can request a trailer that is 
only a few 100 feet from one of the pools...which is basically 
dedicated to the people that are staying in the trailers.  There is 
another main pool in the FW area.  I've never used the beach.

>How far off is River Country?  or does this depend on the trailor loop?

From the trailers you use the FW bus system to get to the River 
Country area.  It is no big deal to get there....

>How quiet are the trailors at night?

I have never had a problem until the last time I stayed there in....

I ended up in a trailer right by the road and noticed the buses 
driving by during the night.  The problem is that I was running in the 
Disney Marathon and went to bed really early [for me...9:00pm], but I 
believe the internal FW bus system runs until 1:00 in the morning.  
Never noticed them until this past trip, but had stayed there I think 
4 other times in the past few years.

>What other FW activities did folks try and how enjoyable were they?

The only thing that I can think of is that the campfire/full length 
disney feature film in the outdoor theater is fun.  We went there a 
couple of times and enjoyed ourselves...even without the kids.

>Which trailor loops would you recommend?  Are the ones mentioned 
>in earlier notes still the recommended loops?

I agree with previous recommendations in the conference...I think it 
is the 2500 loop that I like the best [but I'm not positive] it is 
close to the pool, the bus stop is right there and it does not back up 
to any camping area.

>When you had stated a preference, was Disney able to meet the preference?

Never a problem...I've tried a few different loops for variety but 
I've already stated my opinion above.

>Do they have non-smoking trailors?  

Actually I've never asked for one and never noticed if it was 
smoking/non-smoking [smell wise].

>They mention a grill is available for each trailor?  is there one and a 
>picnic table outside?

Yes, and I use it at least once/twice each trip (even on a 2 night 
stay).  Cooked up a good steak the night after running the marathon 
with a huge baked potato and a few beers...boy my mouth is starting to 
water.

>any other information or experiences you would like to share would be 
>appreciated.  I hope to make a reservation within the next 2-3 weeks.

Check out the annual passport specials, 50% off the $180.00 a night 
price tag is a good chunk of change.  

Even for people not planning on cooking think of all the 'snacks' that 
you might have and prepare for them.  The trailer has a complete 
kitchen with microwave, coffee pot, oven, frig, plates, pans, 
silverware, etc.  They even stock you with liquid soap, dishwasher 
detergent, sponge, etc.  We now don't leave home without little 
tupperware containers with salt, pepper, sugar, coffee....those little things 
that you don't think of as 'food' and cringe at buying in 5 pound 
quantities when you get there.  On the way from the airport we stop 
and complete our food shopping list for the week and arrive fully 
stocked for the week.  Even when I'm staying there for a few days by 
myself and will be eating out quite bit, I stop for the microwave 
popcorn, 6-pack and a few other things that I know I would want when I 
return in the evening.

Have a great time...I know you will.

-Jay
 

>At this time, a trailer at FW is our top choice.  Can anyone that
>has stayed in one over the past 1-2 years give their opinions
>on the trailors?   
    Sure.  For us the main advantages over hotel rooms are:
      - Fully equipped kitchen area - stove, oven, microwave, coffee maker,
        pots, pans, dishes (for 6 or so but I'm sure you can ask for more),
        glasses, utensils, etc. plus a dishwasher.
      - Separate bedroom for the kids with door, parents sleep in living
        room area.  We put the kids to bed and are able to stay up and
        watch tv for a while.  That's almost impossible to do in a regular
        hotel room.
      - Normal bathroom facilities (although the tub/shower is the small
        type - if you're tall, the showerhead is at face level.  I have
        no trouble at 5'2".)
      - Parking for one car available right at trailer door.
    
    Negatives:
      - No parking near the pools and laundry area so must take internal
        transportation.  Beware that some folks try to get away with
        parking at the side of the road which causes some dangerous
        situations.
      - Ticket booth at Pioneer Hall closes early, seemed to correspond
        to River Country closing time.
      - Trailer loops are all at the opposite end of Fort Wilderness
        from Pioneer Hall and River Country.
    
    We still plan to stay in a trailer on future trips.  We eat most of
    our breakfasts in the trailer and many dinners too.  It seems more
    home-like which is nice when you have a longer stay.

>Can they accomodate 2 couples and a 15 year old boy?
    They can but you may feel crowded.  The set up you'd get is a Murphy
    style bed in the living room and a double bed plus a set of bunk beds
    in the bedroom.  Having spent a week in the Contemporary with 2 couples
    and 2 infants, I think the major problems would be with the lack of
    privacy and the amount of time it will take to get ready in the
    morning.
      - You'll be sharing one bathroom although the sink in the bedroom
        helps a bit.  It will take forever to get through 5 showers.
      - The sleeping area for one couple (the living room) is essentially
        a public area.  If they want to go to bed early, they'll be setting
        the sleep schedule for the entire group.  The living room is
        between the kitchen and the bedroom/bathroom area of the trailer.
        If the people sleeping in the bedroom like to get a drink or snack
        in the middle of the night, they'll have to walk through the other
        couple's sleeping area.  Oh, there is only about a foot of space
        between the pulled-down bed and the couch so navigating your way to
        the kitchen can be interesting.
    
>How easy was it to use the internal transportation to get to the 
>theme parks? Typhoon Lagoon? Pleasure Island?  was the transportation
>crowded? on a regular time schedule?  Did you drive vs use the internal
>systems?
    We take our car and drive to the parks.  I have taken the boat launch
    to the MK.  It seems to take a long time but going over the water
    bridge is interesting.  Depending on the time of day, you may have to
    stop at Discovery Island and the Contemporary.
    
    The FW internal bus system is ok.  We didn't have to wait very long
    and the buses didn't get too full except at Hoop-Dee-Doo times -
    generally 1/2 hour to 15 minutes before and after each show.  I never
    took the buses to the other parks, I believe you need to take the
    internal bus to Pioneer Hall and get a connecting bus there.  There is
    also a bus terminal at the parking lot area where you can get a
    connecting bus to Port Orleans and Dixie Landings.  I don't know if
    you can get other buses there.
    
    The buses may be on a regular time schedule but I wasn't able to tell.
    The FW internal buses all run the same route but some run in opposite
    directions so sometimes you can save time by talking to the bus driver.
    Always tell them what stop you are heading to so they will be sure to
    drop you off.  If the driver is on the ball, they may tell you to wait
    for the next bus because it is going in the other direction and will
    get you to your destination quicker.

>How accessable are the swimming pools?  the lake beach area that you 
>can swim in?
    One of the swimming pools is near the trailer loops and is within
    walking distance of most of them.  The other pool is much nicer and
    is a reasonable bus ride away - maybe 15 minutes maximum.  You can
    also rent bicycles and golf carts which can make it much easier to get
    around.

>How far off is River Country?  or does this depend on the trailor loop?
    It doesn't really depend on the trailer loop.  River Country is down
    near Pioneer Hall so it would take about 15-20 minutes maximum by bus.

>How quiet are the trailors at night?
    The trailers are very quiet, even during the day.

>What other FW activities did folks try and how enjoyable were they?
    We watched the MK fireworks and the electrical water pageant from
    the marina but haven't tried anything else.

>Which trailor loops would you recommend?  Are the ones mentioned 
>in earlier notes still the recommended loops?
    I don't know which were mentioned earlier.  We've stayed in Cedar
    Circle and Shawnee Bend.  Cedar Circle is much closer to the
    pool/laundry area so you can walk there.  The trailers on Cedar Circle
    were more beaten up than the ones on Shawnee Bend (which had been
    recently renovated) but were otherwise equal in quality.  Shawnee Bend
    is larger than Cedar Circle so you could have a longer walk to the bus
    depending on which trailer you get.

>When you had stated a preference, was Disney able to meet the preference?
    Yes and no.
    - In 1991 we reserved two trailers and asked to have them be next to
      each other.  They were able to honor that request.
    - In 1993 we requested a trailer with bunk beds - usually reserved for
      parties of 5 or more.  They didn't honor that request but I forgot
      to mention it a check-in.
    - In 1993 we had two separate back-to-back reservations and requested
      to stay in the same trailer if possible.  The CRO said they look for
      that and it would probably be taken care of automatically.  They did
      not note this on my reservation.  I can't remember if I mentioned it
      at check-in or if I went back later but once I mentioned it they
      called someone and had it taken care of.
    
>Do they have non-smoking trailors?  
    I don't know.  Both times we've had ashtrays in the trailers but there
    was no cigarette smell.  The first time (Cedar Circle), the maid smoked
    in the trailer while cleaning (but we weren't there).  We didn't say
    anything about it and the smell didn't last for too long.

>They mention a grill is available for each trailor?  is there one and a 
>picnic table outside?
    There is a metal charcoal grill outside each trailer.  They do not
    provide charcoal or matches.  There is also a picnic table.

>any other information or experiences you would like to share would be 
>appreciated.  I hope to make a reservation within the next 2-3 weeks.
    If you do get a trailer and plan to eat there, be sure to bring as many
    small sizes of condiments and such from home as possible.  We were not
    able to find small containers of many things and ended up wasting a lot
    of money and food.
    
    If it looks like privacy will be an issue you might want to look into
    the rates at the vacation club or the villas.
    
    I'll try to remember to bring in some stuff from home so you can take
    a look at it.
    
    Ruth

Jay and Ruth,

thanks for your quick and thorough responses, a lot of good input 
for me and hopefully others.

We had stayed in a 2 bedroom Villa during our first trip to WDW
in 85, but from the MK guide for 94, it appears that the late 
April time frame only receives a 10% discount over the value season
rate.  In prior years, that time frame received a 30% discount.
With the 10% discount, the villa is out of the price range we
had in mind.  

We definitely will keep track of any specials that may become 
available, through calling every month or two AND, probably 
more importantly, tracking this notes conference.  We 
already have 4 shares of Disney stock, plan on buying Annual
Passes for the trip, have the MK club card and just received our
Disney credit card yesterday.  If there are other potential 
discounts, I'm sure someone will keep us all informed in here.

thanks, 

peter

    We've stayed in the trailers twice, and I think the previous replies
    gave pretty complete info on what to expect.  We'll definitely stay
    there again on the next trip. (...whenever it may be!)
    
    Last time, we were a group of 4 adults and a 5-year-old.  My husband
    and I took the pull-down bed in the living room (comfortable), our
    son had one of the bunks in the bedroom, his aunt took the other bunk,
    and his uncle had the double bed.  Space-wise, the trailer worked out
    fine for us.  The only time we felt crowded was first thing in the 
    morning, when the bed was still down in the living room and it was a
    challenge to maneuver around it!
    
    It was a plus to have that extra sink in the bedroom, so one person
    could be brushing teeth, etc, while someone else was using the bathroom 
    or shower.
    
    The transportation system was also convenient.  We had a rental car for
    trips to the supermarket and excursions to Universal, but Disney's
    transportation worked out well our group who was always park-hopping in
    three or four different directions.
    
    The beach area is good for relaxing.  It's not huge, but is kept up
    very nicely.  Good spot to catch some sun, take a dip in the lake.
    The pool area is also quite nice and conveniently located next to the
    laundry room, so I've managed to combine those activities!
    
    On the last trip, I was determined to take advantage of one of the FW
    activities, so I signed up for a trail ride.  Fun!  A guided, gentle 
    ride thru the FW woods atop a sweet horse named Bridget.
    
    I generally enjoy the atmosphere at Ft. Wilderness.  I like the feeling
    of being off in the woods, getting a break from WDW the crowds and
    bustle, seeing the rabbits, deer, armadillos.
    
    Joanne
    

    Can anyone give me some updated information on F.W.
    I am severely tempted to try it out, although this will
    be my families first trip to Florida, so I am trying
    to weigh up the positives and the negatives of staying
    in a camp site rather than a hotel.
    
    I would also be very grateful if anyone has a spare
    brochure on FW, as, apart from this notes file, I am
    finding it difficult to obtain any other info.
    
        Thanks,
         
        Gordon.
         

    Gee, Gordon, what information do you want?
    
    I've staying in FW a great number of times.  We're talking resort
    camping, not wilderness camping.
    
    o cable tv to most sites,
    o unlevel cement pad
    o site has what must be crushed sea shells.  This gets dirty, and
      tracks into tent/camper.
    o noisey, deisel buses [like camping in NYC] travel in loops around
      campground.
    o transportation to/fro other attractions getting worse.  new WL eating
      up FW bus transportation.
    o nightly 'campfire' with movies and songs.  you are NOT allowed a
      campfire on your site.
    o at times they spray [without warning] for bugs.  This can and does
      enter tents or pop-ups.  This was a big problem 2 years ago.
    o you park your camper, let your kids go, and don't worry about
      traffic.
    o bathrooms are generally dirty, especially after morning rush.  we do
      NOT shower in the bathrooms [too dirty], but in our motorhome.
    o other camping places in area that are cheaper, better maintained. 
      but you have to drive to WDW.
    o If you compare the $60/night camping fee with $69 for hotel....
      you can cook in your camper.
    o little chipmonks that like to eat rubber in hoses in engine.  we were
      parked for a week.  took me months to find the hose that the little
      guy eat.  this could have happen anywhere, but safe to say chip and 
      Dale are not my favorite Disney characters.
    
    those are the pluses and minus we weighed.  perhaps the biggest thing
    that bugs us are those buses within the camp ground.  
    Our next vacation in December, we will NOT be staying in FW.  We will
    stay on property [can't be a Disney vacation without]
    
    
    if you have a specific question, please ask.  ed
    

    
    I stayed there in '87 and Loved it!
    You could eat of the bathroom floors when I was there.
    The Magic Kingdom was a 10 Min boat ride across the Lake.
    The only complaint was you could hear the Illuminations
    music @ 11:00 PM every nite. 
    
    Toby 

              <<< KOOLIT::$41$DUA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DISNEY.NOTE;1 >>>
                       -< The Disneyphile's Disney File >-
================================================================================
Note 116.116                      Dinner Shows                        116 of 116
NOVA::FEENAN "Jay Feenan - Rdb Engineering"          46 lines   4-MAY-1995 14:44
     -< Some recent changes to the last few FW transportation entries... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    RE: the last few...                                              
    
    FW bus transportation has changed a bit.   I think this mainly has to
    do with the addition of the WL and the sharing of transportation
    between FW and WL.  
    
    There are now two buses that run internally [actually there use to be
    two in the prior system but their roles have changed].
    
    Bus one is labeled internal.  It runs from Pioneer Hall through all the
    campsite loops to the front gate area.  This bus is label INTERNAL.
    
    The second bus runs from Pioneer hall - through some of the campsight
    loops [the wilderness homes included] - to the front gate - to the
    transportation center - to WL - to Pioneer hall. (I think I have this
    correctly).  This bus is labeled the "BOONE" bus.
    
    The prior system had one more bus switch from the 'external' to the
    'internal' bus system.
    
    Some additional comments:
    
    - Mike Scopa's suggestion of walking the fitness trail from the WL
    parking lot is a great one. It is a nice easy walk between to two.  It
    has always been a segment of my daily runs at WDW.  The
    only draw back is that for the late show [or the early show in
    fall/winter months] this is not a lighted path.
    
    - The boat system - Remember that the MK/FW connection closes down
    according to the park schedule.  So at this time of year a 6pm closing
    means that the last boat from FW to MK will probably be around 6pm and
    the last boat from MK to FW will be around 7pm.  [at least this has
    been historically true]. Do they run a special run after the HDR?
    
    What is interesting is that WL has been added to the boat loop and there
    is also boat transportation between the contemporary and FW.  In this
    past trip this means the FW/MK boat now goes FW-WL-MK.  The
    FW-contemporary boat provided the Discovery Island transporatation.
    After MK closes down I'm sure FW-WL-contemporary transportation is
    still provided, but I don't know the sequence.
    
    
    Personally I'd combine these two ideas.  A nice pre-dinner walk from WL
    to pioneer hall via the fitness trail to build up an appetite and then
    a nice boat ride between FW and WL after dinner to get a touch of night
    air!

    Does any one have fairly recent prices for renting trailers at Fort
    Wilderness that they would post here?
     
    I'll be going down in Oct 95.

    
    re: .145
    
    I believe the current price is $185/night.  In October, you should be
    able to get a 30% MKC discount - $129.50/night ($143.75 with tax).
    
    --Jay
    

    Thanks Jay!