Conference 7.286::golf

    Slow play is a terrible thing on a golf course, it ruins everyones
    enjoyment it has got much worse in the last 5 or 6 years , can
    anyone tell me why it has got worse.
    
    I know people who think 4.5 hrs is ok!!!!!!!
    
    Penalty shots all round 
    
    Joe

    Did anyone catch any of the LPGA yesterday.  Seems they had groups
    playing so slow that the announcers got into a big discussion about it. 
    Suggesting that if they are going to put penalties on the men that they
    surely should do so to the women also.
    
    In fact, they played sooooo slooooow, that not all of the groups could
    finish play and had to complete their rounds early this morning.
    
    has the same ever occured for the men?
    jr

    I thought that they were penalizing the LPGA players.  Didn't Nancy
    Lopez get a 2 stroke penalty several years ago for taking more than 20
    sec. to putt?  I think she ended up winning the tournament by 2 or 3
    shots anyway.

    Bill

    reprinted, without permission from the boston globe.
    
    Golfing dispute leads to gunshots-Honolulu-A golf course dispute
    between two foursomes over alleged delays on the tees escalated
    to gunshots.  Friday's violence at the Koola Golf Course on Oahu
    Island began when members of one foursome began complaining
    that golfers in the group in front of them were moving too
    slowly, hitting three or four balls each off every tee.  Two of
    the men got into a fistfight on the 18th tee.  The confrontations
    then appeared to be over as both groups went to the clubhouse, but
    as everyone left, two men from the first foursome parked their van
    and flagged down two men from the second soursome, police said.
    When one of the men from the second foursome got out of the car,
    the passenger in the van fired several shots from a semiautomatic
    pistol.  No one was wounded.  Police wer looking for the occupants
    of the van. (AP)
    
    
    Well, I suggest carrying copies of this article around with you.
    When you run across slow players ahead of you, hand them the 
    article ;- )
    
    willie
    

    
       Made the mistake of playing Trull Brook (Tewksbury, Ma) this past
       Sunday afternoon.  Just wanted to play nine holes before supper.
       Started at 3:15, 3 hours later I had to call it quits after 8 holes!
       It was hot and humid, and all the water coolers were bone dry.  I
       was wondering why I hadn't played there in a couple of years.  My
       memory has been refreshed.
    
       Golf used to be enjoyable.....
    
    -rick

    3 hours for 8? Yow! Just about on pace with the slowest round I ever
    had - 3.5 to play nine. It happened last summer at the CC of NH in
    Sutton. We had a 12:20 tee time, got there about 12:05 and were told
    "we're running a bit late today...". Finally teed off at 1:00. Finished
    the first hole and noticed 2 foursomes waiting to tee off at #2. Knew
    we were in for a slow one then. Finished the 9th at 4:30 and walked off
    the course, figuring it would be 1995 before we got to 18...

    i have a slow play/arrogance/stupidity story.
    played captain's in brewster in late july.
    it was pretty slow moving.  on about the 14th
    tee, we get there and there are strangers teeing
    off.  we say, 'what's goin' on'.  they reply,
    ' it was backed up so we jumped over to this tee'.
    two of the three had already teed off and the
    third finished his tee shot.  we didn't say
    a word.  we waited until they got to their
    drives and then we teed off.  they were on
    the right of the fairway when the first drive from
    our group rolled by them on the left.  when they
    realized that we weren't going to let them
    'jump ahead', they picked up their shots and left
    our hole and went elsewhere.  we got a good laugh
    out of it.
    
    played 18 at hillview yesterday.  their were four of
    us.  there were nearly three open holes between us and
    the group in front of us.  we caught them on the sixth
    hole.  even with that, we played the front 9 in
    1 hour and 50 minutes.  on the back nine, we got
    behind these two threesomes, each of which had
    a lousy golfer that took 7 or 8 practice swings
    on every shot!  the back nine took 2 hours and 
    40 minutes.  18 holes in 4 and 1/2 hours is not
    bad but we could have easily played in 3 1/2 hours.
    
    they had a ranger riding around but that was the
    extent of his involvement (riding around).
    
    i say golfers should be licensed.
    
    hack nicklaus

    A typical round at either Overlook C.C. or Amherst C.C. takes less than
    4.5 hours.  Amherst encourages 4 hour rounds and likes to place a timer
    on one of the players bags.  The timer notes which hole you should be
    playing within a 4 hour round.  I have yet to finish 18 in under 4
    hours, playing with 4 on foot.  They just politely remove the timer
    after 18 without a single wood.

>They just politely remove the timer after 18 without a single wood.

	Good, as that would be severe over-clubbing.
	I should think a 9-iron is adequate :-)

Mike

    I knew someone was going to jump all over that typo...

I'm not good, but I'm working on it with a high double digit handicap. My
in-laws taught me to play ready ball and we normally can get a 6,400 yard course
done in about 4 hrs 15 minutes.

Last Sunday three of us played over at Ocean Shores GC, and wound up playing
behind a large group of women. When I say large, I mean 6. They were with a
group of 7 men, and the whole lot were divided by three, with all of the women
last in line.

It wasn't bad enough that the women paid for four, took four sets out, but
allowed all six to play... The men were also slowing the game down, by not
playing the next tee when ready. The first group would finish their hole, go to
the next tee, and wait till the second group showed up. Then the first would
play while the second group waited for the women to catch up. One of the women
would spend time about 20-30 yards behind searching for other golfer's lost
balls, standing well within our range (good manners causing us to hesitate). To
top it off, the women were playing like they were professionals and waited
tilleach took their turn no matter if they were already at their ball and able
to hit it. then they would mantain a distance of about 200 yards behind the men
when the best of them could barely make it past 120 yards on a good day with a
strong tailwind.

We finally reached the fifth tee in two hours, and were able to get out to the
fairway. After waiting over five minutes for the women to get out of our way, I
finally said screw it and placed a well aimed ball (I love it when it works that
way) about ten feet behind the slowest of the bunch, giving the cursorey yell of
Fore when the ball was about half way down its flight.

By the time we finished the fifth, everybody was stacked up on the short par
three, and just after the women teed off, the marshall finally shows, and we
placed our complaints with him. He stopped the six women from sharing the four
sets of clubs, and got them to move a little faster... but... they slowed down
again on the approach to the eighth green, so... another well placed shot rolled
the ball past their feet (dang I love that 5 wood) aaaaand cost me a glare into
my smiling face.

We finished the front nine in 2 3/4 hours. Fortunately they did not continue on
through the back nine, and we were able to finish it in 1 3/4 hours, leaving the
people behind us in our dust by the time we got to the 12th hole.

Another thing that drove me up the wall was the women did not place their golf
bags on the side closest to the next tee, and would take turns making each of
their putts instead of holing out, thereby causing more slowdowns waiting for
them to clear so we could make our approach shots.

I'm told a bad day of golf is better than a good day at work, but who needs that
kind of frustration to louse up an otherwise beautiful day? If it wasn't for
those two well placed shots around their feet... and I'm not normally that
aggressive of a player!

Greg

    Greg,
    
    As an avid golfer I can sympathize with your experience at Ocean
    Shores.  As a women golfer I must say a few things.  Yes there are some
    women who play slow but...I have golfed alot and on many different
    courses (both private and public) and must say that I have waited for
    just as many men golfers as women.  I have also seen men doing many of
    the things you described the women doing.  I'm not trying to "start
    something" by speaking up for the women...just trying to get my
    experiences and opinion heard.  If you golf with me or any of my usual
    women golfing friends you will never have to wait.  I'm sorry for your
    bad experience at Ocean Shores but please do not let that experience
    damage your opinion of women golfers in general.
    
    Thank you,
    Linda  

    I believe it is directly related to the amount of experience you have
    playing the game and working towards becomming efficient with your
    play. We would all love to play a round where no one is in front or
    behind and we can take all the time we like.  Typically, that is not
    the case and you may need to find ways to speed up play.  One example
    is to agree not to always adhire to 'honors'.  If you are ready to hit
    and the one who is up is fishing in the bag for something, go ahead and
    play your shot.  I prefer to walk a round and often end up paired with
    players in a cart.  If it's a long walk to the next tee, and we need to
    speed up play, they will arrive first and should play their shots
    first.  When you need to move on quickly, play out your putts. 
    Continually marking putts takes up a good deal of time.  I know this
    sounds strange, but you can actually be too courteous in your play and
    slow up the round.

    Greg,
    
    I agree with Linda. I my experience men are slower players for all the
    reasons that you have described than are women. Women seem to be more
    aware of slow play and do something about it. Once I was in the lead group
    of a tournament. It was raining and we had a couple of high numbers on the
    first two holes. On the third tee, a long par three, I noticed that the
    group in front of us were hitting their second shots and the group
    behind us were just about finished on the green. I then suggested that
    we begin to play ready golf. After the par three none of the players in
    my group were moving any faster. On the fourth tee I said that we
    *have* to play faster and that I was going to lead off and get everone
    moving. There were no voiced objections. I began telling them when to
    hit. I began taking my driver out of my bag as I walked to the next tee
    stepped up, teed up and hit, turned around and asked "who's ready". I
    never marked my ball from that point on and insisted that everyine
    finish holing out once they began putting. After a while they got in
    the swing of things and we finished four or five holes in front of the
    group behind us. 
    I think that all the slow players need is a little example from
    other golfers and maybe a few less invitations to play if they do not
    get the hint.
    One last point: all off us are guilty of playing slow at some time or
    another. We need to resolve to *committ* to do better and to provide
    the example for others. I think that if each of us actually does this
    and can recruit others we can make an impact on slow play.
    
    	Rich (Who's_record_for_18_holes_is_6.5_hours)

    The key is to keep a balance between playing efficiently and still
    enjoy the round.  There are many ways to move play along and not feel
    'rushed' in the process.
    
    My experience with mixed play has always been very positive.  If
    anything, I think women tend to pick up sooner than men if they feel
    that they are slowing up play.

    I was looking through an issue of one of the golf mags in the store
    a few days ago (I forget if it was Golf or Golf Digest). Anyway, 
    there was a small piece about slow play. It had a list of average
    times for 18-hole rounds on public and private courses. I think it
    said the list was compiled by the PGA (or was it USGA?) A few of the
    things I recall are:
    
    Women were, on average, only 4 minutes slower than men.
    
    17-23 year old players were the fastest, followed by 59-64 year olds.
    The slowest players were the 40-49 year olds. They also had it
    broken down by income groups, private vs public courses, etc. Maybe
    somebody who gets the magazine could kindly type it in...

    Ready golf should be the standard applied equally to new, experienced,
    inexperienced, courteous, non courteous, male, female, good, poor or
    average golfers. One pracice swing, max 20 seconds standing over the
    ball, line put in advance of your turn to put and one practice with 20
    second time limit for the real put. If you can't play ready golf then
    you should only be able to have a tee time in the afternoon.
    
    I know must professional golfers do not play ready golf but then again
    if you not on the tour please don't prtend that you are on tour as I
    want to do somthing else that day besides play golf.
    
    							Phil

    i think we all agree it is difficult to get ALL golfers
    to adhere to the generally accepted rules to speed up play.
    
    BUT golf courses bear a big burden here also.  i stood on
    a tee an listedened to a starter bitching about two fivesomes
    who were slowing play.  we said, 'you're the a**hole that let
    two fivesomes out and now YOU're bitchin!'  at first he
    got p.o.'d but then he realized he could control that.
    
    if more courses used the rangers for the intended purpose
    it would be a help.  usually suggesting ways to speed up
    play to those holding you up end up with fights, threats,
    and in some cases, deliberate slower play.
    
    re. the golf mag article about time of play for various ages
    and income brackets, i recall that the higher income levels
    took longer.  i guess because they can spend more on equipment
    and lessons, they feel justified in slow play. 
    
    black nicklaus ;-)  (if you've seen me play, you know what the smile
    			 face is for!)

    This week at the Senior's Open they were supposed to be on a 13
    minute per hole schedule.  We finished our round today in about 3:45.
    The pros weren't totally dogmatic about honors, either, especially on
    the green, where they would continue to put out if less than 3' or so
    out.  On two occasions, when Don Massengale was in a hazard, another
    person hit while he was deciding whether to drop or hit out.  Thigs
    moved along quite nicely.
    

                                Andy Ostrom

    
    
    "The pros weren't totally dogmatic about honors, either, especially on
    the green, where they would continue to put out if less than 3' or so
    out."
    
    This is a misconception that is a major contributor to slow play, IMHO.
    Once a player begins putting, s/he has the option of continuing until
    the ball is holed. It is NOT a violation of honors to do so. The player
    also has the option of marking and waiting until once again away, but
    this typically leads to a much longer process.
    
    It sounds to me like what they were doing was observing the rules, but
    in a way that expedites play.

    Last Sunday, my wife and I played a four hour round at a public course
    and we each played two balls.  Since I have a knee problem and am in
    therapy we used a cart.  We started when the last group was two holes
    ahead of us and just before a tournament was starting - we hurried
    only on the first hole, to get out of the tournament players path.
    
    How can we speed play.  Easy, play Ready Golf.  Use marshalls or
    rangers to suggest improvements in speeding play and see to it that
    groups which slow down, step aside and let the next group through and
    if this must be done twice, ask them to leave the course.  More
    important, start training the young golfers.  In Sacramento, CA my sons
    were required to go to a City and a County clinic for 16 hours of
    instruction in being courteous golfers.  By successfully completing the
    instruction, they recieved a card, that allowed them to play the City
    and County courses for $1.00/day.  Both still play golf, and the one
    plays scratch and can easily walk a round in 3 hours.
    
    Slow play sucks.
    
    Big Mac

Thought I'd add my $.02 to this conversation...just to let off some tension.

My wife and I usually play some very average course late in the day on Sunday.
This used to be an uncrowded time to play and, even when starting close to 
4:00 P.M. (eastern MA/NH) we'd usually finish in July/early-August.  

Well, this year it is decidedly different.  Starting anytime after 3:00 we
are luckly to be able to see our hands in front of our faces when we finish.
Play is VERY slow at that time on these courses.  The rates tend to go down
at that time and all the beginners (those who play even worse than me) go out
then.

"So", we said, "we'll pay the extra bucks, play some nicer places, and start
a bit earlier."  (We still like to play in the P.M. so that we can appease our
guilt by getting something productive done before going to the links.)  So,
our first try is at Stow CC.  Got off just before 3:00, just before the rates
dropped, and still finished about 8:45...  Luckily it was light enough to still
see at that time.

So, this week, we go for a time a bit earlier.  At Overlook in NH we get a
2:08 tee time.   Get there about 1:35 to ensure we are ready to play only to 
find out that they are backed up at the start about 1 hour!  (Hmmm, 1 hour +
2:08 = finishing in the dark!)  I asked if, once started if things were moving
along.  She says, "Well, things backup a bit at the 3rd hole, but move along
after that."  Well she was have right, things backed up at the 3rd hole.

We were only a 2-some so did get out a bit earlier due to a cancellation.  We
started at 2:30, got backed-up at the 3rd hole, and waited for *at least* one
foursome at every tee.  The first 9 took about 3 hours and we finished a bit 
after 8:00 (things always seem to speed up at about the 15th).

----

On the other side of things, just trying to make tee times is also a challenge
if you aren't ready to commit 5-7 days in advance.  All this grieve and
aggrevation is enough to make one think about marrying a course.  But wait,
is that really the solution?

Those of you who are members of a private or semi-private course, is play any
faster there (on average)?  Is it easier to get tee times if you like to 
wait until a day or 2 before your outing?  Or is there really no easy answer?

Getting frustrated with this aspect of the game,
John

    
    Just to interject a happier note... I had a tee time for 7:12am this
    morning...  fresh dew on all the greens, nobody ahead, nobody behind
    except for one fellow playing alone with a cart; we let him play
    through and had the course to ourselves.
    
    that's the way to do it!
    

   Public courses themselves contribute greatly to the increase in slow play.
  Instead of spacing out the groups better, the starters get them teed off
  as fast as they can, which usually translates to a group every 8 minutes.
  Doesn't take long for the course to gum up with an overload of golfers.

   But, this is exactly what the courses want.  More people = more $$$$$.
  And to touch on an earlier note, the courses, seeing that late afternoons
  didn't attract too many golfers, instituted lower rates after a certain time.
  Bingo, it worked!  Word got around, more budget conscious golfers (me!)
  wanted to take advantage of the lower rates, and now the courses are just
  as crowded on late afternoons now!  The next step for the courses will be
  to continually increase the prices on the discount rates until they have
  sucked all the $$$$$ out of it that they can.  Can't blame them, it is a
  business afterall.

   What it means for me is that I will seriously consider joining a private
  course next season, one that can guarantee 4-4.5 hour rounds on weekends
  and relative quiet on afternoons during the week.   I don't know if such
  an animal exists.  It is either that or spend my limited entertainment
  dollars on other less expensive and less frustrating diversions.

   One final note, you can play all the ready golf you want, attempt to go
  through as many groups as you can and do all in your power to speed up
  play, but if the course is overcrowded (2-3 groups on every hole) you
  will be just hurrying up to wait!  

-rick
    
    re. .25    Watch for courses to have a  before 8 am special to attract
               more of the golf before work players!   8^)

    I hate to tell some of you guys this, but...
    
    Played Passaconaway this Sunday with my weekend playing partner.  We
    teed off at 1:04 with no one in front of us and no one behind.  We
    played 14 holes before a two some caught up with us, who we then let
    play through. (two older gentlemen who played golf faster than I have
    ever seen before...).  Once they played through, we continued on with
    no one else in sight for the rest of the round.
    
    Loved it!  Course was in great shape, too.

    
      Ssssshhhhhh!  Keep Passaconaway a secret will ya, otherwise everyone
      will start playing it.  I just wish it wasn't 45 minutes from my 
      home.  It's a gem.
    
    -rick

    Re:  <<< Note 1732.24 by RANGER::GORCZYCA "PATHWORKS/NetWare Product Manager" >>>

    In order to avoid  guilty  feelings  for  not  spending time with the
    family or doing some work  at home, I now have a regular group I play
    with in Stow Acres early on  Sunday  mornings (around 6 AM).  Even at
    that time there is a group out every 8 minutes, but  people  who play
    that  early tend to be average or better golfers that know the rules,
    so we are usually back at the club house around 10:30 and home by 11.
    
    But as mentioned many times before, don't play there after 8:00 AM or
    you'll risk having a 5 �+ round.
    
    Tavo

    Did I say that 'other' place?  I meant The Overlook in Hollis, N.H. 
    I'm always getting them confused.

    re.13
    
    My opinion of women golfers are not limited to one experience, nor is
    this the only opinion. After all, my mother-in-law plays in the same
    range I do, and plays just as fast. I could have just as easily stated
    this to be a bunch of men, and the results and actions would have been
    the same. In fact, their men were just as inconsiderate to the eventual
    players behind them by waiting for each other to catch up at the tee
    box.
    
    My point was the lack of consideration to the other players was very
    evident here, and ready ball was not a point of value amongst them.
    
    Still love the game, just despise the slow play when I know it can be
    quicker. Sometimes slow play can't be helped just to sheer volume of
    people on the course. (Too bad really.)
    
    Here's to a good weekend of low triple digits!  8^)
    
    Greg

    
    	What is it about slow play that it's almost always someone else
    	or a different group?  Who would answer the question "are you
    	a slow golfer?" with a "yes".  Actually, some people have the
    	attitude that they put down good money to play and they're not
    	about to run around the course.  
    
    	And who hasn't been behind the group holding everyone up and been
    	totally frustrated by their complete lack of effort to pick up
    	the pace?  No one in front, foursome waiting on the fairway, and
    	they walk like they're window shopping on Newbury St!!
    
    	You can play ready-golf all you want.  But there's almost always
    	gonna be those people who won't get out of the passing lane, no
    	matter how many cars pass on the right.
    
    	On one course in Myrtle Beach, the marshalls had flags.  If you're
    	behind the pace, you get flagged.  If you don't catch up, you're
    	off the course after the 9th!!  
    
    	Every course should tell every person to play ready-golf when they
    	buy their ticket.  And people should be kicked off the course if
    	they hold up play.  I'd bet that most folks in here would patronize
    	courses that had strict slow play rules.
    
    	Yes?
    
    	Tom
    

    i suggested to my foursome on sunday that i would be
    willing to pay a $5 deposit.  if it was clearly my
    foursome that was slow, keep my $5.  if my foursome
    played in the time limit, i get my $5 back.
    
    it would be hard to lay blame for slow play but it would
    make people aware.
    
    willie

    re .25
    
    7:12AM is *late* where I play. You'd probably get out around 9:00
    to 9:30! We meet at the course at 5:45AM! ANd we are *not* the
    first off!
    
    I sure wish 7:00AM was early enough, but as I've said before,
    two few courses and too many golfers. But... going off that
    early, your done about 10:00-10:30, and have all day to get
    other stuff accomplished... like taking a nap... :^)
    
    	Jerry

    I like the deposit idea except you also get it back if you are right
    behind the foursome ahead of you.

    First hole, 2:03 p.m.: Hi! I'm the guy you love to hate.  You know, the
    guy that turns your four-hour round into a six-hour ordeal.  I think I
    can hear you cursing at me right now.  I know, you're probably
    wondering why I can't leave the green until I write my score down. 
    Well, it's a matter of principle, really.  It just wouldn't feel the
    same if I were just in the cart, en route to the next hole.
    
    Third hole, 3:45 p.m.: You want to what? "Play through"? Play through
    what?
    
    Sixth hole, 5:18 p.m.: So I guess you've never taken a mulligan, huh? 
    This was my 12th on in the last three holes, but I'm improving. Yikes. 
    I think I just lost another ball in that tall grass over there.  And
    wouldn't ya know it, it's a brand-new one.  Wanna help me look for it?
    
    Eight hole, 6:25 p.m.: I suppose now you're wondering why I'm waiting
    for the green to clear on this par five before I hit.  It's true that
    I'm 340 yards out with a 35 mph wind in my face, but you never know
    when you might catch one on the screws.
    
    Ninth hole, 7:58 p.m.:(darkness is falling): Finally made it to the
    green. OK, I've looked at this putt from behind, both sides, and from
    the other side of the hole.  Let me put the ol' plumb-bob on it, and I
    think I'll be all set.  Yessirre, I believe this two-footer is gonna
    drop!
    
    -O.B. Comer
                            

    �think I'll be all set.  Yessirre, I believe this two-footer is gonna
    �drop!
    
    But it won't drop as fast as O. B. Comer will when my 9-iron reaches
    his upper lip from below... ;-)

    At the course i play the slow play is a disgrace, one week in a
    competition i was in the first 3 ball out.
    Behind us were 3 of the slowest players in the club, so
    what we did was play as fast as we could by the end of the round
    we were 5 holes up on them.
    The people behind were going ape, on completion of the round
    we made noises to the people waiting at the first about 5 holes
    behind.
    
    The  result of this was the 3 players holding up the course were
    all sent letters by the commitee warning they would be banned
    from club competitions for a few months if this happened again.
    
    It highlighted slow play and action was taken, however i must admit we
    were quick we were round in 2 hs 35 mins a 3 ball stableford.
    
    We must all try and stamp out this disease.
    
    Incidently the course is 5700yds not a monster but plenty of rough
    and small greens.
    
    FORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    Joe.

    RE: .38
    
    If the 3 slowest players in your club can play a round in about  3.5
    hours....(2 hours 35 minutes for 13 holes).....then you're doing pretty
    well...maybe you shouldn't lean too hard on them!!!!
    
    

    Most players play our course in 3 and a 1/4 , we must keep it
    in control otherwise it gets to the situation where there is no answer.
    
    All the members i spoke to were pleased the 3 ball got letters
    and warnings .
    
    That one incident has made all the players aware of slow play
    so will help all the players in the future enjoy their game.
    
    Too harsh i would not say so.

     I played Crumpin-Fox last Sat. at 9:10 am with a foursome. Took us 5
    1/2 hours - I was going crazy! As yiou know, I've been a member there
    for years, and everything about the place - Pro shop, people, lounge,
    range (now...), course condition etc. is terrific - until you set foot
    on the course!! Play is just getting slower and slower, with no end in
    sight. The amount of play is incredible.
    
     What I would do, would be to look at a couple of operations around the
    country that handle the pace of play extremely well, and use them as
    the starting point for a model. They probably would have a separate
    staff geared to monitor and regulate play(starter, rangers, etc.),
    which would work and communicate with the Pro shop to make slow play a
    thing of the past.
    
     We'd probably end up losing some members (we've got some slow ones,
    too), and some people wouldn't come back, but they're not the ones we
    need anyway. I believe that if folks knew they could play a course like
    the Fox in 4 1/2 hours, even though it costs a bit more, "People would
    come..." As for me, I'll play at 7am or 5pm, or just hit balls and
    fish...
    
    __Jack