Conference 7.286::golf

    I heard this second hand...
    
    Stewart's ball landed on a road.  He took relief from the road and
    dropped.  His ball came to rest in a place where he had to hit it with
    one foot still on the path.  He hit the ball (must have liked the lie),
    and was assessed a two stroke penalty.  I guess he should have
    re-dropped to get completely away from the object he was taking relief
    from.  (I would have thought it was OK)
    
    Dan

    
    This is where the rules make me crazy.  What advantage did he get 
    by having half of his right foot on pavement.  If anything he was
    at a disadvantage, he could have slipped much easier.
    
    I saw Ray Floyd hit the ball off of a paved cart path in a Sr. event
    and he wasn't penalized.  How are the 2 different?
    
    Confused again by the rules that noone can remember!
    
    Shane
    

    The rules state that if you are going to take relief from something you
    have to take complete relief!  You don't have to take relief, therefore
    Floyd hitting from the path. You have a choice of where you think you
    have the best shot, but if you choose relief you have to drop
    completely away from the cartpath or whatever obstruction. (1
    clublength for a free drop, no closer to the hole.)

>    have the best shot, but if you choose relief you have to drop
>    completely away from the cartpath or whatever obstruction. (1
>    clublength for a free drop, no closer to the hole.)
    
       Don't have the rule book handy and all this snow has crystalized
       my brain cells but now I'm confused.  Wouldn't a one clublength
       drop to the right of the cart path (sorry Bill B, Mike D. and Tavo,
       I'm thinking right handed golfer here) automatically bring your
       stance back onto the cart path?  I thought you could get relief
       to either side of the path?  This rule automatically eliminates
       one of those sides, doesn't it?
    
       This wasn't one of the 'building a stance' rulings because he 
       happened to be standing on an artificial surface, was it?  
    
    -rick

    I believe relief includes stance and swing.  You get one clublength
    away from the nearest point which doesn't impede your stance or swing.
    
    Dan

    Nope 
    
    As stated, since he did not take complete relief from the path, he is
    then improving his lie.  If he takes complete relief, he is then within
    hte rules, still improving his lie.  He is not allowed to redrop on the
    path in a more advantageous spot.  
    
    SCD
    
    

>	Wouldn't a one clublength
>       drop to the right of the cart path (sorry Bill B, Mike D. and Tavo,
>       I'm thinking right handed golfer here) automatically bring your
>       stance back onto the cart path?  I thought you could get relief
>       to either side of the path?  This rule automatically eliminates
>       one of those sides, doesn't it?
    

	I believe when your ball is on a road/cart path you can either

	o play it as it lies

	o take a drop at the *nearest* point of relief that is no closer to
	  the hole.  Having been in this situation several times... and twice
	  had an official make the decision for me, it doesn't have anything
	  to do with 1 club length.  You mark where the ball is, then move out
	  along "perpendicular" directions until you find a spot where complete
	  relief is found.  This includes your feet being off of the road.

	  "Perpendicular" means perpendicular to the direction of the road,
	  unless that would be closer to the hole, in which case you adjust
	  the direction so you're not moving closer.

	Clear as mud? There is usually exactly one closest point of relief,
	and you may not like where it is :-)  So I would guess that ol PAyne
	liked the lie on one side of the road a lot better than the other,
	but that wasn't the closest point of relief (since his feet where on
	the road), hence the penalty.

Mike

    The word complete is the operative.  He failed to take complete relief. 
    Consider this as an example.  He was on the path and to drop would
    allow him relief from the path but put him in a spot that made his
    approach immposible (tree, blind shot whatever).  HE could elect to hit
    off the path.  He could not elect to take a "partial" relief from the
    path that also would allow him relief from the other obstacles.
    
    I played once with a pro fresh from rules school and here is what
    happened... He came to rest behind a large bush.  It impeded his swing
    and line of sight.  But because his stance to take his normal shot had
    him on a path he elected to drop.  In looking for his relief point, he
    went to the nearest point of relief and dropped.  But now, his true
    shot was not into the bush put away from the hole and bush both.  This
    shot would require him to stand on the path again.
    
    
                            o Hole
    
    
    
                          XXXXXX Bush
                        ------------ Path
    
    Since the path was still in his way, he was allowed a drop on the
    opposite side of the path, about three or four feet higher, and was now
    able to take a lofted club out and hit the ball over the bush and onto
    the green.  Here is where knowing the rules and using them actually
    helped.
    
    Long way of saying, Payne messed up by not taking complete relief.  It
    seems that a lot of the new courses involve the golfers in more of the
    rules.  The old "pure" country club courses like Augusta don't seem to
    embroil the players in confusing rule decisions.  More paths, more
    immovable obstructions, less delineation between hazard and not, some
    bunkers that are hazards and some that are waste areas(Kiawah Island).
    
    Now I have never met a hazard that my foot wedge or hand wedge could
    not overcome...I wonder if I only use one foot to kick the ball with
    does that constitute one club or do I automatically have to count both
    feet and only have 12 real clubs in my bag.  This would make my bag
    lighter, but I would have to learn to kick left footed.  At such an
    advanced age this might be difficult.  These dilemmas are just part of
    the musing that we should all consider, especially while the weather
    doesn't cooperate.
    
    SCD
    
    
    

    Unless I'm confused, I think this note is way off track.  They did a
    replay of the shot he was penalized for, and here's what I saw...
    
    Payne's ball came to rest under a branch (or something), and he
    couldn't get a full swing.  He elected not to call it unplayable, but
    to take a swing from his knees.  It was kind of muddy, and to keep
    his pants clean he put down a towel, kneeled on it, and took a swing
    (hit a pretty nice shot, too).  They called him for a penalty for
    building a stance (of course, knowing the PGA, they'd penalize him
    for dirty pants if he didn't use the towel ;-)).  Anyway, that's what
    I saw on the replay...

    
    It sounds like you are referring to an incident that happened to 
    Craig Stadler, 3 or 4 years ago. This was definatly Stewart,
    last Saturday.
    
    
    
    

    RE:.9
    Craig Staddler was disqualified from the tournament in 1987 for signing
    an incorrect scorecard.  This for not taking a 2 stroke penalty for
    building a stance with a towel!  They have since name the said tree the
    "Staddler tree" even though they have pulled its fangs by trimming the
    lower branches.  Craig was leading the tournament at the time (3rd
    round).  Possibly cost him 180K.  -------They do look a lot alike?(;

    
      Nah, they don't look alike at all.  They do dress the same however. 
    
          8^)
    
      -rick   (sorry about bringing up the building the stance comment)

    
    re: .4 & .7
    
    Dropping off a cart path is probably done incorrectly more often than
    not. Let's say your right handed and your ball ends up on a cart path
    that is parallel to the fairway on the left side. If the ball is
    slightly to the right of the middle of the path, most people assume
    that it should be dropped on the right side of the path. NOT true,
    here's the deal:
    
    You mark where the ball currently lies. Then you take a stance on the
    right side of the cart path and mark where the ball would be (note that
    this would put the ball at least 3 feet from the right side of the cart
    path). Now, if you were to take a stance on the left side of the cart
    path and mark where the ball would be, it would be just off the left
    side, say 8 inches. The left side is clearly the closest point of
    relief since the ball would be closer to the original position.
    
    Once this new ball position is determined, then you can drop the ball
    within one club length of where the nearest pont of relief was.
    (note that the one club length is NOT relative to the original
    position.)
    
    Another gotcha: if in this example you are now blocked by trees to
    the left of the fairway, that's too bad. You either play it as it
    lies off the path, or drop it left. Dropping right is NOT an option!
    
                              -Joe

    If being left or right handed is a deciding factor then why when
    determining the need for relief is a golfer allowed to take a right
    handed stance when he is actually left handed (or the reverse) which I
    see all the time on the tour.
    
    So in this example if I was wrong - handed I would take my stance
    left-handed to determine relief position, drop and then hit it R***t
    handed.
    
    Lefty Sprockett

    I believe the ruling is that you are allowed relief for your normal
    shot, toward the hole.
    
    SCD
    

    So, 
    	Why isn't the original ruling as to need for relief judged the same
    way "normal shot".  I have seen pros take a left handed stance with a
    foot on cart path where a "normal" right handed stance would not be
    touching cart path.  Then after taking relief they hit it right handed.
    
    	I never noticed whether after determining need for relief [left
    handed] they find nearest point right handed.
    
    	See my point?
    
    So_NH_snowbound

I think they've fixed this. I too can remember pro's pretending to use a driver
in punching out of trouble - just so they can claim an obstruction and take a
drop.

I don't know if catching them on television (and reacting to the complaints)
had anything to do with it, but it seems as if the PGA enforces more sanity
than before.

Eric_who's_optimistically_started_his_carpet_putting_program!

    Some of you rules buffs need to help on this.  It is my understanding
    that when taking relief...one club length...that you can still use any
    club you want to measure.  This has nothing to do with you normal shot.  
    This is why most use a driver.  I tried to use my ball retriever once
    and since I only had 13 clubs and the ball retreiver in my bag, I
    considered it a club.  My partners whined so much I declined to  pusj
    the issue.  They felt the 18 foot extension was beyond the scope of the
    rule.
    
    SCD
    

    Don't you have to use the 'club'.  If you putted with your
    ball retriever, wouldn't that qualify it as a club.
    
    i'm only half serious here.  :- \
    
    black nicklaus

I don't know about a ball retriever, but I do know that long putters can be used
when measuring relief, and that you do not have to use the club.  I caddied for
my uncle in a round of the NY state amatuer, and the guy he was playing against
had one of these putters for only that reason.  Hardly seems fair, but he did
have to give up another club....

 

    
    You are talking about two things here:
    
    1) The club used for the shot
    2) the club used to take relief
    
    In 1, I believe people are saying in order to judge if you entitled to
    relief, you need to show that you are blocked in the swing you will
    take when you hit the ball, ie use the club you would hit the shot
    with.
    
    Once this is done, you can use any club in teh bag for relief.
    
    A ball retriever is not a club. One of the rules saying what a club
    is is something along the lines of it can't be adjustable during the
    round, or something like that.
    
    --Bob
    

�    A ball retriever is not a club. One of the rules saying what a club
�    is is something along the lines of it can't be adjustable during the
�    round, or something like that.

That's just one part of the club rule the ball retriever breaks!  Don't use
a ball retriever for any shots.  It is not a club and violates many rules
that define what is a club:

- Shaft can't be adjustable.
- Must have a club face with certain specifications.
- Can't have holes in the club face.
- There are rules about the grip on the club.

Mike

    As Tavo says only snow blindness could cause me to carry this on but I
    shall try, try again... to wit my point is still out there.
    
    Is it not still true that a right-handed golfer can determine need for
    relief [from a cart path] by taking a left handed stance?
    
    If so why given earlier replies would he/she not be required to pay
    alimony/  I mean (there's that snow again) to hit it left handed?
    
    I am just having a problem as to where this concept of "normal shot" eg
    right or left handed would apply or not
    
    Lefty Sprockett

    I believe your right. Left handed stance for a righty to determine
    whether there is relief and where to drop is appropriate. Can anyone
    be definitive on this?
    
    							Phil -snobound

Just happen to  have the Rules of Golf for 1992 handy ... the bible says:

	"Exception: A player may not obtain relief under Rule 24-2b if
	(a) it is clearly unreasonable for him to play a stroke because
	of interference by anything other than an immovable obstruction
	or (b) interference by an immovable obstruction would occur only
	through the use of an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing, or
	direction of play."

So unless you can convince the marshall of the merits of your left handed
swing, you're out of luck.

Eric

    Although many consider us lefties abnormal and our swings doubly so I
    suspect that the USGA does not want to unduly offend the LHGA
    (Left-Handers Golf Assoc) - (Not exactly sure of name) by claiming a
    lefty stroke is abnormal.
    
    You could be right that a righty swinging lefty might be abnormal.
    
    But I am not convinced by this rule that the "trick" I have seen the
    pros use is negated by 24-2b unless a ruling to this effect has
    occurred.  In a nutshell is 24-2b new?
    
    LS

    All I know is that I am going to get my ball retriever welded and put a
    new grip on it.  And I am going to carry at least a left handed 1 iron,
    can't hit the thing right handed anyway.  My putter is already
    two-faced (all puns intended).  Do I have to invest in a right handed
    golf glove to carry the charade out?
    
    SCD
    
    PS.  Found a day between rain drops and cruised to an 80...Love my new
    Hi-Lob wedge.  Two faced putter only touched the ball 27 times.
    
    

SCD,
    If you weld the putter head to your ball retriever you could carry
one less club and perhaps use your umbrella as an extra lob wedge !!!

Mad Hacker

    So-Cal,
    	From your many notes I don't think you will have any problems
    making it as a left hander.  Here are 10 hints
    
    1.  Wear a duck hunting hat in your golf league.
    
    2.  Have items scattered around the car which can be clearly identified
    	as being minimum 6 months old.  This should include perishible
    	food.
    
    3.  Get lost on the way to work.  Even better show up at a previous
    	employer having it dawn on you when you can't seem to find your
    	usual parking spot.
    
    4.	Invest in a pull cart that falls apart every third hole.  Don't fix
    	it for a few years then all of a sudden repair it.
    
    5.	Try to turn work conversations around to Mel Parnell.  If no one's 
    	heard of Mel then wonder out loud why Bill Lee was called Spaceman
    	as his theories make perfect sense and in fact are actually your own
    	that he is plagiarizing.
    
    6.	Get a surge of adrenilin when you read that the Sox are looking
    	for a left-handed reliever and wonder aloud whether you should give 
    	Lou a call.

    How many of those 27 were lefty?
    
    Rich

    Breen .29
    
    Nice note.  Tell me you have 10 hints and send six.  Definitely left
    handed.  Interesting enough, I grew up with a left hander(my Bro) and
    do a few things left handed (not golf-but I used to putt left handed) 
    Might call me a wanna-be.  Your reference to lefties made me think of
    all the left handed pitchers I have known....have you ever seen a left
    handed pitcher wear his hat straight?
    
    Remember also that my brother switched from right handed to left handed
    golf after playing to an 8 at one time right handed.  Now that is
    really left handed.
    
    SCD

    So_Cal,
    	I guess I ran out of steam.  I picture Walter Mitty and Stan Laurel
    for example as lefties.  Babe Ruth was fairly typical of the species
    but I don't know what kind of a golfer he was.
    
    	A radio personality in Boston name of Norm Nathan created the
    original Lefty Sprockett, an amalgam of turn of the century baseball
    and all zany left-handers.
    
    	I think I could get both you and Fred Couples into my lefties
    benevelent society: you from your rookie year notes, Fred if he marries
    again only this time to a lady who enjoys Yachts.
    
    	I will mail you a Lefty Sprockett story.
    
    Bill

    Breen Re.32
    
    Better yet, if Freddy narries someone into NASCAR racing, or open ocean
    racing (cigarette boats).  He had better watch out, I hear Betty Daly
    has an older sister.
    
    SCD

     <Better yet, if Freddy narries someone into NASCAR racing, or open
    < ocean
    
    Maybe Jack Clark form. of bosox knows someone - although I think his
    racing was fomula 1.  I guess you know old Jack since his roots are
    So-Cal, that is his racing roots
    
    
    Lefty 

    Jack Clark et al.
    
    Strange you should mention it, but back in 1974 I was at spring
    training with Jacky Clack (not a typo - the sound his glove used to
    make).  We used to clear out the first base stands because Jack ( a 3rd
    baseman in his formative years) would cut loose with a throw and sail
    it into the stands.
    
    SCD
    

    I remember going to Mets games years ago, when I was an Assistant Pro
    on LongGisland, watching Dick Allen (aka Richie Allen) play 3rd base.
    He was usually good for one or two laser throws into the Ist base
    seats. The guy had an absolute CANNON, but he was clueless as to where
    it was going. Maybe one of the most talented athletes I've ever seen...
    
    __Jack

    Interesting Dick Allen story from a fellow I played ball with ...Dirty
    Al Gallagher.  WHile sitting in the dugout after being called on the
    management carpet for being late to Batting practice  (Richie call me
    Dick was famous for not liking BP) Dick says to Al..."I don't get it
    Dirty, they want me to come to the ball park 2 hours early so I can hit
    off of a guy even you can hit."
    
    SCD

    Although I've been near Boston for many years, and love the Sox, I was
    never much of a Yaz fan. I regarded him as a real good player who was
    an overachiever who had one spectacular year. Anyway, I got so fed up
    with the local talk shows years back, I called one up and asked them to
    compare Yaz' stats with Dick Allen. Sorry, Yaz...
    
     It ain't golf talk, but - what the hell, Spring is comin'...
    
    __Jack