Conference 7.286::golf

    your swing plane must be outside/in.  do you turn when you swing?
    if not try it.  with a turn your swing plane should tend to be a 
    little inside out (provided your hands are in the right spot).
    
    one other thing.  do you hit the ball first before hitting the 
    ground.  trying to hit the ball on the upswing often causes a 
    slice.  One symptom of this problem is the reverse pivot.  Reverse
    pivot is when your weight ends up on your back foot vs the front
    foot.  If this is the case try hitting down through the ball (with 
    irons) and get your weight over to the front side on follow-through.
    
    The longer the shaft, the further you will need to play the ball up in
    your stance.  Now, you should place the ball in your stance where you 
    will be able to strike the ball in the descend but still finish the 
    swing on your swing plane.  Reducing head movement will allow you 
    to play the ball as far back in your stance as possible.	

    It is my belief that swingpath determines where the ball starts, not
    the trajectory of the ball in flight.  Draws and fades are a result of the
    clubhead position at contact.  Open = fade or slice, closed = draw or
    hooks.  I'd argue the fact that "your swing must be outside/in.  I've
    hit many a pull hook with an outside/in swingpath.  I also think that
    there is no "correct" ball position.  It depends too much on the rest
    of your swing.  Nicklaus plays almost every shot inside his left heel,
    Hogan says to vary your right foot at address.  Experiment and see what
    works.  Turn your grip a little stronger to help close the clubface at
    impact or roll your forearms a little more or seek professional help.
    
    						JT

Most instructional books/videos will tell you to play every shot with the ball
in the same spot (in relation to your left foot). With the exceptions being down
hill lies (more back) and uphill lies (more forward).

Most slices are created by an outside to in swing (generally coupled with an
open clubface). Most hooks are created by the exact opposite forces. If you
generally slice or fade, but do hit the occasional whot to the left, it's more
than likely that you have an outside to in swing, and occasionally hit the ball
with the club face closed, which will make the ball travel straight in relation
to your swing.

Myself, I just aim straight, and hope whatever swing I end up with doesn't push
the ball into whatever danger is waiting!!

Lindsay

    If you've got a GOOD (!!) lateral move, you can play everything inside
    the left heel. Otherwise, start there with the driver, and move back as
    the clubs get shorter. It makes positioning the ball a little
    subjective, but hell - we ain't pro's or skinny college kids, and it
    works.
    
    --Jack

    FWIW.
    
    Leadbetter suggests everything inside the left heel. Including the
    wedge. He also suggests a modification to weight distribution. More
    weight on the left side for the shorter irons. Weight even for the mid
    irons and the weight more on the right side for the long irons and
    woods. 
    
    Watch Faldo, Clarr and Price. They are students of Leadbetter.
    
    Ken

Stick with it.  There is nothing wrong with a fade.  Nick Faldo 
deliberately plays for the fade with his irons, claiming that he 
can land the ball more softly and with greater control.  Freddie 
moves the ball a long way from left to right with every club.  I 
suppose the difference is that they know how they're doing it, 
while most of us hit and hope.

The modern school of teaching is to play the ball from the same 
position, approx a club head-length inside the left heel.  I've 
been using this for the last two years, and it certainly works 
for me.  Regarding a fade, this is usually caused by the club 
face being fractionally open as it strikes the ball.  As 
mentioned in other replies, this can be caused by wrong weight 
distribution, wrong ball position, an out to in swing etc...  
Check your set-up, especially your feet, hips, shoulders pointing 
along the target line.

I normally fade a ball, when I can't get my hands through fast 
enough.  I cock my wrists on the backswing, and never catch up on 
the downswing.  To overcome this, I make sure I scrape the club 
along the ground on the backswing, bringing it on the inside with 
a full body turn on my right heel.

But as I said before, there's nothing wrong with a predictable 
fade.  Play with it and play for it.

Happy swinging.

Randall

RE: .1

  Your advise sounds best to me considering that it reminds me of how the swing
feels when I'm crushing balls (something that comes and goes almost randomly).

>do you hit the ball first before hitting the ground

  I intentionally divot my low irons (7 and down), but try not to with the
higher irons.  The low irons work very well, giving me good line, loft and
distance.  Getting good contact with the 5 is on-again/off-again, but has
only a slight fade.  The 3 iron, 3 wood and driver have pronounced fade up
to an occasional slice on the driver.  There's definitely a pattern here, but
I don't know the correction.

  I've tried to accelerate my swing at point of ball contact with a more
pronounced wristsnap, but I can't seem to get my hands behind the ball on
contact.  That's implied by a fade no matter how strong the wristsnap is (or
so it seems).

>Now, you should place the ball in your stance where you 
>will be able to strike the ball in the descend but still finish the 
>swing on your swing plane.

  This is news to me.  I would have assumed that if I had the ball too far
to my left, I would draw/hook instead of fade/slice.  What you're suggesting
is that I keep the ball farther to my right and contact it at the bottom of
the downswing - where I think I tend to have the clubface open.  I've been
moving the ball to the left and trying to wristsnap to get the clubface closed.

RE: .3

>Most slices are created by an outside to in swing

  That's something that has been largely removed from my swing.  I've been
emphasizing keeping the downswing inside.  As suggested, I drag my woods very
slightly on the backswing to remind myself.

RE: .6

>Stick with it.  There is nothing wrong with a fade.

  Thanks.  However, I'd like to simply keep each of draw, true and fade as
part of an arsenal, instead of being forced to play a fade that I can't
correct.

RE: All

  It sounds like what's important here is to come through on the ball on the
tail of the downswing.  If you put the ball on the left, you have to have that
lateral movement.  If you move the ball back to the right side, you have to
dampen the lateral movement (or risk putting the ball into the turf :)

  This gives me some things to play with.  Thanks to all.

JB

    I have had the same problem for about a year but mostly with my woods. 
    One way I was able to correct it(somewhat) was to accelerate my hands
    through the ball.  My theory was that my body was going throught the
    swing faster than my hands.  I am now experimenting with a totally new
    grip(stronger right hand) and it seems to be be improving.
    
    Dalipf

  I talked to a friend of mine and he suggested that because I'm getting a
straight flight off the tee that the head is probably square to the ball (not
opened or closed), but that because ball spin eventually kicks in to provide a
fade I probably have an out-to-in swing.  Time to get a sanity check on that.

JB

JB,

Your current problem sounds like the one which drifts back into 
my game.  I normally paly with a draw as I have very fast hands 
through the ball.  However, if I don't start with the correct 
take away, I leave my hands behind and push the ball out to the 
right.  Not too far, only about 10-15 feet.  If I'm playing for 
the draw this causes me a problem.

I spend �10, and visit my pro about twice a month.  He gives me 
two tips which work for me.  Firstly, he lets me address the 
ball, then he stands at about 4 o'clock; given that the ball is 
positioned at 12 o'clock.  He then asks me to place the  club in 
his hand.  The only way I can describe this action is like 
turning round and shaking someones hand as they come up from 
slightly behind you.  What is does for me, is ensure that I take 
the club back on the inside, and get the hands set.  I hope this 
makes sense.

The second thing he does, is make me stand either with my feet 
together, or with my legs crossed.  I then do a half swing until 
my arms are parallel with the deck and then get my right hand 
through the ball as fast as possible.  A bit like applying 
topspin to a ball in table tennis.  This generates that infamous 
"swish", or wrist-snap as you called it, which all pro golfers 
have.

The combination of the "handshake behind" and the swish, gets me 
thinking of taking the club on the inside on the way back, and 
waiting for the hands to take over on the way down and through.

God, isn't golf a simple game.  I'm gald I'm in computers, they 
are so much easier to understand and apply.

    
      Outside-in swings are easy enough to verify.  Check your divots
      to your target.  The divot should be relatively straight.
    
    
               Outside-in               Correct          Inside-out
    
    Target         X                       X                 X
    
    
    Divot         \                        |                  /
                   \                       |                 /
    
    
        I would venture a guess that 90% of the golfers out there have
        an outside-in swing path.  Check divots at the local range and
        notice how many divots  look like the one on the left.
    
    -rick
    

    to add to rick's note.  make sure your square to the target also.
    lay the club down accross the tips of your toes to see if you 
    are square.  otherwise the inside-outside outside-inside gets 
    analysis gets compounded.

    
    Reply -1,
    
    	Hi,
    
    	Proper set up is always a great way to solve swingpath
    	problems...but if you try to setup square by insuring your
    	"feet" are lined up correct, your hips/shoulders can still be
    	open or closed to the line.  One way to make sure is to lay the club
    	across your thighs, then across your shoulders. 
    
    	good luck,
    	
    	Walta
    	

    Re: .12
    
    A better way to check the alignment of your feet is to place the club
    against your heels. Reason is if you employ the Hogan method of right
    foot square, left foot turned out (For RH golfer) the club across your
    toes would align left of target. 
    
    The club on your heels is a more accurate method. 
    
    Ken
    

RE: Proper setup

  I'm also the one who put in the question about lining up a shot.  I'm much
better at getting everything square now.  The act of simply lining up on some-
thing close to the ball and in line with the target has made a huge difference.
I'm getting a feel for it without having to line it up now.

  I think the basic addressing of the ball is correct.  I'm told that I have
a good looking swing, but that may be *the* clich� of golfers.

RE: Divots

  Well, on my 3 iron and my woods, I don't usually have a divot to go by.  But
it's a good idea which I apply to my lower irons.

RE: 4 o'clock

  Well, I'm not sure what effect it will have, but I'll give it a shot.  In
truth, I have this belief that I bring the club back on the inside, but then
get a little wild at the top of the backswing and the head gets outside on me.
I tend to hit strong, true shots with a slow backswing.  To me, that hints at
the clubhead moving around on the faster backswing.

  Now if only the weather would oblige and let me get outside...

JB

  I think I understand the 4 o'clock comments now.  It turns out I simply had
an out-in swing, providing me with the fade.  With the in-out swing, I'm finding
that I tend to position the ball farther to my right to get true shots.  Now I'm
occasionally hooking and drawing the ball (one was a beaut).

  I'm also now working on divoting all irons (with less divoting on the longer
irons).

  Phew.  I'm glad the fade phase is reaching a conclusion...

JB

    the "best" golfers play a fade....!!!
    
    Nicklaus was the most consistant with it over the years....
    
    Hogan never became "great" till he switched from a hook/draw to
    a fade....!!!!
    
    A fade will land and stop fairly close to where it first touches
    down, a draw will land and who knows where it'll end up.....
    
    If you've got a fade be thankful...you have the natural shot
    to place the ball where you want most of the time....!!!!
    
    causes: grip causing slightly open clubface
    	    failing to start the downswing with hips first
    	    ball position too far forward..
    
    to be consistant keep your ball position the same with all clubs...!!!

>    to be consistant keep your ball position the same with all clubs...!!!

  Yes, I'm becoming a believer in this.

>    causes: grip causing slightly open clubface

  Yup.  Apparently, there was a bit of this as well.  Related to my not being
able to line up the ball (my sense of perpendicular was shot to pieces).

>    	    failing to start the downswing with hips first

  I'd say that this is largely a style issue.  The lateral movement gives a
shade more power (how fast can you move your hips?), gives a longer stretch of
ground where the head of the club is square, but also depends on putting the
ball at the right point.  If you put the ball farther away from the target, a
lateral movement will leave you with an open club face.

>    	    ball position too far forward..

  This has been said by others and I still don't understand it.  Assuming
forward means 'too far towards the target', then having the ball too far
forward would seem to result in a hook/draw.  The club head is coming around
from open to closed.  If the ball is positioned too late in the swing, then
the club face will be significantly closed, resulting in a hook, if not
simply topping the ball.

  I love this stuff,

JB

    
    Hi,
    
    >           ball position too far forward..
    
    >>  This has been said by others and I still don't understand it. 
    >>  Assuming forward means 'too far towards the target', then having 
    >>  the ball too far forward would seem to result in a hook/draw.  
    >>  The club head is coming around from open to closed.  If the ball 
    >>  is positioned too late in the swing, then the club face will be 
    >>  significantly closed, resulting in a hook, if not simply topping 
    >>  the ball.
    
    Although the club face is closed, the club path is from square to in
    path which will resemble outside to in swing when the ball gets hit.
    Unless the lateral move is such that the swing path is square at
    impact.
    
    This will put a clockwise spin on the ball causing a fade or slice.
    
    Based on all of the previous theories, looks like ball will start out
    left and fade into the middle.   Right?
    
    Eunhwa
    

Re .18 & .19

It took me a long time to figure out what effect the ball too far 
forward has.  But it is true, too far forward, induces a fade.  
My reasoning is that on set-up when addressing the ball, the ball 
postion is coincident with the bottom of your down swing - fact.

If the ball is too far forward, the tendency is to come from the 
inside on the down swing, and feel for the ball on the follow 
through.  By this, I mean that your hands instinctively follow 
the line of the downswing, your hands get ahead of the ball, and 
don't snap or roll over on the hit.  The face remains open, 
following the in to out swing and either pushes right, or fades 
the ball.

Nick Faldo / David Leadbetter say that the left arm, forearm and 
wrist should fold away, or buckle during the hit.  Putting the 
ball too far forward doesn't allow this.  The technique they use 
to encourage this folding is to swing the club with the left arm 
only.  The right hand clutches the left elbow throughout the 
swing.  What you will see is the left arm remaining straight on 
the backswing, but collapsing at the elbow on the follow through.  
On a two handed shot, think of it as a two-handed backhand at 
tennis, this encourages the snap or swish with the hands.

With the ball too far forward, the left arm remains straight, 
cannot collapse, the swing is in to out, and the club face comes 
across the ball.

Hence the fade - simple really.

Try the ball 1-2 inches inside the left heel.

BTW this is the most fasinating note I have ever been involved 
in.

Thanks
Randall

re .1

Randall,
	You where describing the leadbetter technique. Is there any chance that
you've seen the leadbetter's videos? if so are they any good.

PS: I've started to read this conference a week or so ago, but as i'm a beginner
(and I mean a beginner, I'm a golfer's worst nightmare!!) I find the jargon/term
etc way above my head.

This is perhaps not the right topic so I'll go to the grip topic and ask a few
questions.

Thanks
	Mick.

    re: .18
    
    .20 is the best explanation of why ball too far forward causes a
    slice/fade....
    
    Hogan says..."you must rotate the club with the left arm, most ama.
    and even some pros try to do it with the right arm..."
    
    the face of the golf club should open and close as a door would,
    however this is the result of the swinging of the golf club....
    the most critical time is the first 18" of the backswing...
    the club should be taken straight back for the first 12-18"....
    I like to think I'm a batter in baseball and try to place the
    clubhead into the catchers mit...when I do this I always seem to
    have 1)good tempo and 2) stay on the plane of the swing... 
    
    

    re: .18
    
    failing to start downswing with the hips may be a matter of style but
    it will always produce a swing from the outside in....starting the
    downswing with the hips is critical to keeping the swingpath correct
    i.e. from the inside out....

RE: .19

>    Although the club face is closed, the club path is from square to in
>    path which will resemble outside to in swing when the ball gets hit.
>    Unless the lateral move is such that the swing path is square at
>    impact.

  OK, that makes sense.  I can see how it would generate what is effectively
an outside-in contact.

RE: .20

>By this, I mean that your hands instinctively follow 
>the line of the downswing, your hands get ahead of the ball, and 
>don't snap or roll over on the hit.

  You're talking about a more fundamental problem.  I'm assuming that if I
get good wristsnap and have the clubhead turning as it should (rolling the
wrist), I'm still dead because of what Eunhwa said above.  But your point is
certainly worth remembering - that the swing will try to chase down the ball,
and if it's not in the 'correct' position, the swing can get all bolixed up.

>Nick Faldo / David Leadbetter say that the left arm, forearm and 
>wrist should fold away, or buckle during the hit.

  I find this one of the strangest feelings in a good contact.  The wristsnap,
rollover and this buckling all happening at once is the darndest feeling.  And
then you look up and see the ball sailing away.  Gee this game isn't so hard.
Then you duff the next shot with a divot you could lay pipe in.

RE: .23

>    failing to start downswing with the hips may be a matter of style but
>    it will always produce a swing from the outside in....starting the
>    downswing with the hips is critical to keeping the swingpath correct
>    i.e. from the inside out....

  Sorry, but I still don't buy it.  You're suggesting that if I stand stock
still I can't get an inside-out swing.  In thinking about it more, I think that
the lateral movement is more of a feedback mechanism than anything else.  It
paces the entire swing in a simple fashion.

  The brain is doing something like this:

  - OK, we just started to shift our weight, better get the downswing going
  - Looks good, weight is about evenly distributed.  Where've the arms got
    the club positioned?  OK, looks good there.  Wrists?  Are you guys set
    properly?  No?  Well move your butts! (figuratively speaking, of course)
  - Weight's just shifting left, ball contact coming up.  Everybody check in
    for one last time.
  - OK, and now with the follow-through and the weight's on the left foot.

  I really think that's the more important aspect of the lateral movement.
Timing the swing.

JB

	A few months ago one of the golf mags had an article with Mark McCumber.
	In it he stated that he believed a fade was caused not by the club
	face being open at impact, but by it OPENING at impact.

	That is, it's not its position so much as its motion.

	An entirely new wrinkle!

Mike

I'm desparately trying to finish my work before going on holiday for two 
weeks, but I just can't stop reading this note.

Re .21. I'm more a literary person than a visual person.  I don't even have a 
video recorder, so I can't comment on the Leadbetter video.  But what I would 
say, is that it must be good, because his book talks so much sense.  I would 
recommend you get the video and the one on the short game.  I have a copy of 
the Nick Faldo book, "The Winning Forumla" in which Nick describes his swing 
aka David Leadbetter's swing in infinite detail.  I got it for Xmas in 1989, 
and it took me 9 months to put my game back together again.  But trust me, 
it's certainly worth it.

Re .-2 & .-3.  I think people get confused about start with the hips and 
lateral hips movement.  Lateral movement, may appear to generate power, but 
I'm convinced all it does is move your natural swing path off plane.  Set up 
with the ball inside your right heel, take your backswing, then move your hips 
laterally.  If you could stop the swing, and take your set up again, then you 
would see that you've effectively moved the ball further back in your stance 
because you've moved your body forward.  If you had carried on with your 
swing, with the ball now back in your stance, your hands will never catch up, 
and you're guaranteed to hit the ball with an open club face - hence fade - 
obvious really.

The feeling I am looking for, is more a rotation on the rear leg on the 
backswing.  Almost as if I am trying to screw my right heel into the ground.  
The downswing then starts with a push off the right toes, and a counter 
rotation off the right leg.  As the right heal unscrews out of the ground, 
your weight naturally transfers onto your left side, forcing knees, hips, 
trunk, body, shoulders, arms and hands to generate raw power through the hit.

The worry I have is that people associate "move hips" with a "shift hips left" 
lateral movement, and everything does to pot.  I would suggest that you 
replace "move hips" with "rotate hips", with the pivot being your right heel.  
Another thought I have as I do this, is to keep my point of rotation behind 
the ball.  This stops any lateral movement.  The 7 B's - Bulk Behind Ball, 
Body Behind Belt Bucket.  Lateral movement could cause your body to get ahead 
of the ball.

Randall

    re: .24
    
    read Hogan's article on the swing plane maybe then you'll
    understand...

    re:
    
    The use of the legs, the big muscles in the golf swing, is a difficult
    topic to explain.  As one pro explained to me, if you try to keep the
    legs "quiet" you will get enough power from them to help the swing.  If
    you try to really work them, you will have all kinds of spurious
    outcomes...dipping, popping the ball up, pull hooks, dead lefts,
    outside in swings etc.  
    
    Most of us think the golf swing is an upper body event and this causes
    most of the outside-in swings.  Easy to see the confusion since the
    club is being held in the hands and swung around and above the upper
    body.
    
    I have recently resorted to a set up that has really worked wonders for
    my tee shots.  Some of you may try this and see if it works.  I used it
    as an excercise on the range and decided to use it on the course.  When
    I tee the ball up, I assume a position at address with the club head 6
    inches behind the ball and some times a few inches off the toe.  This
    causes me to shift thru the ball and forces me to swing out to the
    ball.  The result is a more predictable ball flight, excellent distance
    and a reasonably straight trajectory.  If I want to fade I move up so
    that I have eliminated the few inches off the toe as described
    previously.
    
                       Straight(or draw)             Fade
                    o(ball)                        o    O
    
                        O(clubhead)  
    
    
    I have seen some others doing this as well.  It seems to make me keep
    my hips and shoulders going "to and thru" the ball instead of turning
    around or over the ball.
    
    It worked at the International (5 over after 12) and again at Poppy Hills
    (Net 74 on a 74.7 rated course).
    
    SCD

    Just make sure that when going for the 'big - one',  you don't stand too
    close to the ball after you've hit it! 
    ;-)