Conference 7.286::golf

    Consider the investment potential.  Since either is a very good club,
    it is more likely that the Pings will hold value and have resale
    appeal.  The Hogan's will have somewhat less resale value or trade-in
    value.  If you can justify the expenditure, take the Pings.
    
    SCD

    Linda, being the scratch golfer that you are.....not to worry, because
    anything that you put into those hands of yours is sure to be a winner!
    
    Like I said earlier in our conversation, it's whatever works for you,
    but just remember, your my partner in NCC's member/member, so you
    better buy something that works!!
    
    M. Barber

    check the RAM Lazer Fx also....
    
    make sure you try the clubs out if possible as some(ping) are cast
    clubs and some(hogan) are forged clubs....depending on what you
    presently use you may not adjust or clubs simply don't feel right
    to you when going from cast to forged or versa...

    
    I may get hammered here but I would strongly suggest you look into
    the clone market before you go ahead and spend the kind of money
    they are asking for the brands mentioned. Pings have to be the over
    priced golf club ever and the Hogans are no bargain either. I guarentee
    you this much. You put a good swing on a set of clone ping or hogan
    edge clubs and you will get the same result as if you put the same
    swing on the brand name but it is going to cost you about 250 dollars
    less with the clone on the hogan maybe more. I don't know what the
    pings are going for these days but if they are a grand you stand to
    save some major dollars. But i understand wanting the brand name and
    if you decide to go that way I would go with the ping. I had a set 
    of the hogan edge and they just didn't feel real solid to me but then
    again I'm not a cavity back guy.
    
    Have you checked out the taylor made icw11's. It's a blade look but
    it is perimeter weighted.
    
    Pete

    Linda,
    
      If you want quality IMHO it's the Pings. The Pings are heat-treated 
    where the clones are not. Try places like Wayland (MA) CC and Tele Pro 
    (mail order) for discounts. Shop for the lowest price. Make sure you get 
    the right lie (dot color). If they are too expensive have Gene Kelley or 
    one of the other club makers in here make you a set of clones.
    
    Have fun,
    -Steve.

    re: .5
    
    you can get just as good quality in a clone, in fact it may be
    even better because the builder has a personal interest in seeing
    the customer is satisfied....if Linda checks these notes files
    I think she'll find many satisfied customers of some of our club
    builders in here and one that comes to mind is a set of Edge clones
    that were shipped overseas. I'm sure there are other examples...
    
    

     Only the EDGE is forged, but perimeter weighted. Only the EDGE has
    Apex shafts. To me, they feel better. Pings are great quality, although
    I hate the shaft "Feel" and it only comes in stiff.
    
     Ben Hogan could have made a cast club a hell of a lot easier than
    developing the only forged, perimeter weighted club - but he didn't
    think they were as good. Hey, Karsten's a good engineer, but - who're
    you gonna listen to when it comes to how a club feels and plays,
    Karsten, or "The Hawk ?"
    
     Great players can play with a rake, but as far as the rest of us go
    it's strictly personal preference. Clones are o.k., but they have as
    lot less resale. Truthfully, have you looked at "Founders" irons ? Hell
    of a golf club...
    
    --Jack

    Me, I have Pings and I like them and yes I bought  them for the name,
    but got  a  good deal in this conference from an unsual offer of used
    left-handed Pings at  a  good price.  I don't remember exactly but it
    was around $320 for 2 to PW.
    
    I had before Mizuno Altrons' which are a lot like Pings and I  didn't
    notice  any significant difference between  them,  so  I  agree  with
    comments in previous notes, about clones been a good  choice  if  you
    don't want to spend the extra $$.
    
    Also I just spent the holidays back in my home country, Mexico, and I
    wasn't planning on playing since we had a very busy travel and family
    events  schedule,  but  I  ended  up  in  a  resort that had a decent
    nine-holer and  luckily  they  had one set of lefty clubs.  Well, the
    shape they were  in!!!    bent  shafts,  grips that felt like  I  was
    holding cardboard.  Well, I had a decent round with them (for me), so
    it went to show me that clubs are  not  as critical as having a sound
    game.

    If you are going for that class of clubs  and  just    to   put  more
    variables in your search, a lot of people are really high on the Tomy
    Armour 845's.
    
    My 2�
    Tavo
    

    Re: Clones
    
    I agree with the clone concept as well.  Some people just want the name
    and it does add value in terms of trade-in or resale.  I personally
    have found my Prima's to be excellent clubs.  These are Ping copies and
    I saw that they advertised during the Masters last year.  Other top
    perimeter weighted clubs like Cobra's, Ultra's and Callaway's(the
    number 1 seller in Japan).  Even MacGregor has a set of forged
    perimeter weighted irons - Jack Nicklaus irons.
    
    I recommend that you go into a Nevada Bob's, Golf USA type store and
    ask if they any consignment clubs.  These are usually nicer than the
    used clubs, but less expensive than new.  They are clubs left by a
    previous owner for the store to sell (and take a commission).  Got my
    Prima Berylium Coppers for $225 this way.  Many pro shops have a used
    inventory because club members are trading them in every year on the
    new model.  
    
    Shopping for golf clubs is getting to be a lot like shopping for cars. 
    Many options, many styles and wide swing in price.  But the top brands
    hold their value.  I still have a set of Ram Tour Grinds that I got on
    consignment 8 years ago for $175.  Today they are worth about the same.
    I use them every now and then to teach my Prima's a lesson.
    
    Good Luck
    
    SCD
     

    A friend of mine who is an 11 handicapper tried several sets of clubs
    last year (including Pings) & ended up buying Callaways.  He is
    extremely happy with them & swears that they are improving his game.
    
    I bought a set of Tommy Armour clones from Nevada Bob's last year.  I
    really like them, but can't explain exactly why & I have to admit that
    my game is pretty much as bad as ever despite them!
    
    I guess it all boils down to what you expect to get in return for the
    investment.  If dramatic game improvement could be absolutely
    guaranteed with a particular set of clubs I'd spend a lot to get them,
    but I'd want a money back guarantee.  Until someone comes up with that
    I personally am not prepared to spend more than the price of a clone
    set.

    
    If they ever come up with a club that will absolutly, money back
    guarentee improve your game I'm going to call it quits. I think we
    are victims of the greatest marketing job in the history of sporting
    goods sales. This is what I think. There are two types of club heads
    blade and perimiter weighted. Two types of shafts, stiff and regular.
    Two types of balls, two peice solid, three peice balata. Everything
    between has nothing to do with how well you play.
    
    Now there are a billion different swings. That's what makes a
    difference in how well you play.
    
    So find a set of sticks that make you happy. Pings, Clones it really
    doesn't matter. What really matters is you get the correct flex in the
    shaft. A R shaft will typically have a mid flex point and be lighter
    than a stiff shaft. The walls of the shaft will be thinner in a R shaft
    making it lighter. A stiff shaft will have a high bend point towards
    the hands. Bend point towards the hands is supposed to give you more
    control. But if you put a high bend point in the hands of a weaker
    player they will have less control
    
    There are 5 shaft classifications 1. stiffness (flexability)
                                      2. type ( weight)
                                      3. pattern( bend piont)
                                      4. mounting ( installation)
                                      5. frequency
    
    There are 5 different types of shafts  1. x = extra stiff
                                           2. s = stiff   
                                           3. r = regular               
                                           4. a = amateur or flexable
                                           5. l = ladies               
    
    Most players don't fit into a x shaft there just to stiff. The A flex
    and L flex are just to light and you will out grow them very quickly.
    So you have the R and S. You can trim the tips of these two shafts to
    get the desired result. Much to be said no time.
    

    And continuing  the  previous note on club technology, I just watched
    this weekend the  Nov/Dec  tape  of the video magazine "Wide World of
    Golf" with an interview  of  the  technical  head  of  the  R&A Saint
    Andrews Club (I'm  not  sure  of  the  correct  full  name,  but it's
    Europe's cousin of the  USGA)  and when asked about all this new high
    tech equipment, he simply said something like this (paraphrasing):
    
    Most of it is just marketing noise.   There are only two technologies
    that really have make a significant impact in  making  it  easier for
    the average golfer to play better:
    
    PERIMETER WEIGHTED/CAVITY BACK CLUB HEADS
    Then  they  showed how a blade and an  a  PW/CB  clubs  compare  when
    hitting them of center.

    TWO PIECE BALLS
    They go saying that  for  woods  and  long  irons  the  difference in
    distance  with both balls is minimal, but the  difference  is in spin
    rate,  with the wound ball having  a  higher  one  thus  accentuating
    slices and hooks, and longer distance with  medium  and  short  irons
    with the two piece ball.
    
    So their conclusions are:  for the average  golfer  to  play a LITTLE
    better use PW clubs and two piece balls.
    
    FWIW
    Tavo
    
    

    Hi...i bought a set of Ping irons this past summer. I played and hit
    balls with all major brands, narrowed it down to three - Pings,
    845s and Edges - hit a thousand balls with each of those three and 
    finally selected Pings. All three are fabulous clubs and you can't
    go wrong any of them. I won't recommend one over the others except
    to say that my selection criteria was performance; not resale value, 
    quality, price or anything else. If you are in the market for $400+ 
    clubs you will get those additional advantages with all three. 
    
    If you decide on Pings, you won't find many great deals out there.
    Karsten keeps the wholesale prices high and the margin for even
    the biggest dealers is very small. The mailorder houses have no
    better prices than local proshops if you are selective about your
    pro shop. The absolute best deal i found was at the Dennis Pines
    Pro shop in Dennis, Mass (Cape Cod)- $459 3-PW. The next best deal was
    at the Wayland CC, Wayland Ma - $480. The best mailorder deal was
    $489 and up. 845s and Edges are $60 or so less but i didn't do much
    price research on them.
    
    Take your time and have fun; the research is the best part!
    
    	/stan
    
    
    

    
    Dave,
    
     You state in your note that you felt that the ping-eye2 irons
    were a step above the clones in many respects. I would be interested
    to know what differences you noticed. I ask because I am in the process
    of building a set of Taylor Made ICW-11 copies for myself. 
    
    Pete

    
    Just to add another opinion here. I bought new clubs a couple of 
    seasons ago, being a mid handicapper (around 10-12) I tried several
    different name brands, from Pings to 845 and edge's. I then decided
    that for the price I did not play enough golf to justify the expense.
    
    I then went to lower price clubs and settled on the Ram Accubar. 
    These are by far the easiest clubs to hit that I tried, to me they
    felt better than any of the Ping, 845 or edge clubs that I tried, the
    price was around $200 for the irons.
    
    To me they are at least as good, but as others have said, it is what
    feels right to you.
    
    --Bob
    

    
    Hi L,
    
    	Pings vs Hogan EDGE? Which to buy?
    
    	Both are good choices. Both are high quality. You can play any
        level of golf with either club.
    
    	Some technical differences are;
    
    	The PINGS , with the larger flange, are easier to hit
    	straight. The larger flange will help square the clubface
        upon impact with the ground. The larger offset will help
    	get the ball airborn easier also. They are a cast club,
        so they will have less feedback on mishit shots.
    
    	The EDGE's have a more traditional flange and allow you to work
      the ball easier. The EDGE's are more difficult to hit straight,
      and more difficult to hit cleanly. They are a forged iron and
      therefore a softer metal, because of this they will provide
      more feel.. and give you more feedback.
    
    
    	Having played both types of irons, I think if you play a lot
    	of golf , and strike the ball well (consistently)... either iron
    	will make you happy. 
    
    	If you aren't playing a lot I wouldn't buy the EDGEs. The PINGS
    	larger flange will allow you more room for error.
    
    	Walta
    
    	

    RE: .17
    
    The one question I have is this.
    
    Which of these clubs really improve your game ?
    
    My experience is that bladed clubs are significantly more difficult 
    to hit and will penalise any mis-hit shots quite severely. On the other 
    hand, a blade will give much more feedback, which I presume can be used 
    to help produce a more consistent swing/strike.
    
    Perimeter weighted irons (on the other hand) provide little feedback, 
    tend to let mis-hit shots off rather lightly and don't give as much
    accuracy in general.
    
    To sum the whole thing up, I would say blades help build a better swing 
    (better golfer !) and should be used by anyone who has ambitions in the
    longer term to improve their golf/score.
     
    While P.W. help to keep the score down, I disagree when someone says 
    they have all the ingrediants to aid real IMPROVEMENT. In my opinion
    P.W. clubs  mask over problems instead of highlighting them. Poor golf 
    when not highlighted cannot be improved.
    
    Am I right or wrong ?
    
    Regards,
    Pat.
                                 

     
>    While P.W. help to keep the score down, I disagree when someone says 
>    they have all the ingrediants to aid real IMPROVEMENT. In my opinion
>    P.W. clubs  mask over problems instead of highlighting them. Poor golf 
>    when not highlighted cannot be improved.
    
        Bingo!  Although the perimeter weighted clubs are useful for those
      folks who play for enjoyment, play infrequently and want to keep the
      the frustration factor to a minimum.
    
    -rick
    

    re: .18/.19
    
    well all that is true if your a machine....but humans make errors
    especially swing errors...less than perfect contact with the ball
    
    nicklaus once said that he might hit 3-5 perfectly hit shots in a
    round of golf, the rest are all misses of one type or another....
    today even he uses PW clubs because he realizes that those misses
    cost strokes, so if your interested in scoring as well as your
    game allows use PW so that your problems/misses can be minimized...
    
    many professional golfers today realize this fact of life and have
    switched to PW clubs, especially older golfers who like nicklaus
    just don't have the great hand/eye coordination anymore because
    father time is intervening....
    
    swing problems should be addressed on the practice range so that
    when you go out to play you can enjoy the game...

    
     Noters who have stated that the P.W clubs have advantages make a very
    good point. Noters stating the blade also make a very good case for
    the blade. So I guess it boils down to " Gentlemen choose your weapon."
    
    Just an opinion. The clubs on the market today remind me very much of
    the cameras that are on the market today. It used to be that you had to
    understand photography to take a good picture but the cameras to have
    taken all the talent out of it. All you need to do is piont it in the
    right direction press the button. If club and ball manufacturing
    continue to improve the equipment the way we have seen in the past 7 years
    we  only have to point ourselves in right direction and make halfway
    decent contact in general vacintiy of the ground around the ball and
    bingo putting for birdie. 
    
    We are not there yet. If I see a player go out in 72 I certainly don't
    say, " Ya but he had a P.W. club with sqare grooves," because I believe
    he would have shot 72 with a blade. But when I see a player come in 
    with a 105 I do think he might have shot 125 with a blade. So what's
    the point..........Hell, I don't know. 
    
    Pete

    
    
    Reply last couple;
    
    	All things considered relating to PW'd irons vs blades and
    	the feedback benifit... I think the EDGE irons are trying
    	to provide the best of both worlds. Being they are PW'd
    	and forged. 
    	
    	I can attest to the feedback benifits. Last season I played
    	a lot... my handicap dropped from a 4.0 to a 2.4 USGA . When
        I was at my best, which lasted approximately two weeks.. I
    	hit alot of shots flush, and couldn't feel anything through 
    	the stroke ( those of you who have hit a forged iron know
    	the feeling) .  
    	
    	Throughout the rest of the season my swing wasn't as pure...
    	and it was VERY frustrating to "feel" those shots. The
    	bad contacts would radiate up the shaft and feel poor, even
    	though the results may turn out decent... I was still left 
    	feeling I missed the shot, and would then try to fix the
    	problem.
    
    	Prior to the EDGE's I played investment cast PW'd irons and 
    	there's definitely a "feel" advantage with the forged irons.
    	
    
    	So the bottom line is;
    
    	If you want to feel like you are striking the ball pure, and
    	wonder why your yardages may vary, go with the cast irons...
    	You'll feel better about your game, and spend less money
    	at the driving range! :)
    
    	If your aim is to torture yourself trying to perfect your 
    	golf swing, so as to repeat that ever allusive SWEET 
    	feeling that incredible rush of a pure hit, ... 
    	while along the way, twanging your way from shot to shot?
    	Go with forged PW'd :)  And join a driving range that allows
    	unlimited access for a set fee. Then pay that fee. Go there
    	at lunch... everyday.  I'll be the bald guy to your right,
    	the one overswinging :)
    
    	Walta

    Walta...
    
    Great summary.  I recently played a round with two balls and two sets
    of clubs.  Long story, but I ended up with my Ram Tour Blades and my
    Ping copies in the bag on a trip.  Playing alone, with a cart, mid week
    in Florida.....I decided to see what would happen.  Well, end result
    was a 76 with the PW Ping clones, 87 with the tour blades.  Distant was
    the biggest factor.  In order to get the same distance with the Blades
    I had to swing harder (or felt like I did) sacrificing direction.  The
    only club that felt better in the blade set was the pitching
    iron...better feel/balance maybe.
    
    Just had a friend (about a 12-14 hdcp) play a round with a used to be
    touring, now teaching pro.  The pro told my friend to stow the blades
    and by a set of PW's(he recommended Cobras).  The pro told my friend
    that he was not and would probably never be good enough to hit the
    blades.  Not a slam but a realistic perspective based on swing, time to
    practice, desired return on the investment.
    
    SCD            

    
    Feedback and all is great, but I would be the majority of golfers
    wouldn't know what to do with it, or even that they got any.
    You need to play a good amount and understand your swing if you
    want feedback to help.
    
    One other thing I would like to mention, I have talked with people
    who thought PW clubs were a cure all to there slice/hook. If you 
    take a terrible swing with a PW club, you are gonna get terrible
    results. PW clubs help minimize the effects of slight defects in
    the swing, they won't solve major problems.
    
    --Bob
    

    re: .24
    
    reading through these notes I don't think anyone implied
    PW would mask bad swings....I think most of the noters
    are assuming that people who respond here put a reasonable
    pass on the ball. And I'm sure all of us hit a slice/hook/shank(!? that
    word again) once in a while or we wouldn't be noting here...{;^)
    
    the only secret is SOUND FUNDAMENTALS and practice,practice,practice...

    How about practicing with the blades and playing with the PWs?
                           Rich

    re: 24
    
    Just Mark Calchivecchia(sp).  He showed us all how to shanka #4 Ping
    Iron.
    
    The one time I took serious lessons, and maybe this was unusual, I
    learned more about feedback etc. than I did about the swing.  My pro
    explained to me the swing paths and the resulting hits...inside out;
    inside square; inside closed and the same for outside in; outside
    square and outside closed.  Armed with this info, I asked about new
    clubs (I was a 24 hdcp at the time)and he said....Buy a blade for a year
    or two, make it a good blade that you can resell.  You really need a PW 
    club, but it will not give you the feedback to help you understand your
    swings/hits.  He was recommending a set of Hogan PC's.  I loved them,
    but found a set of Ram's.  Net net, I still use this lesson series
    today, and can play doctor on myself.  The PW's I now use only tell me
    when I am real bad, but the feedback and what to do with it is a key to
    improving and enjoying the game.  I have days where I am stiking the
    ball well and just don't score.  Those are the days the feedback is
    real helpful.  Other days when nothing feels right, I can fiddle and
    see if there is something to do to salvage a few holes.
    
    SCD
    teach you much

    
    I was not trying to say the people in here are like that (PW cures
    all). Just mentioning that it is not and people should keep it
    in mind. I have talked with people who believed that PW clubs 
    were a cure to a bad swing.
    
    Also keep in mind that not everyone in here is ready for the tour
    or even practices regularly, there are all different levels in
    here from beginner to scratch golfers.  I was just trying to make
    sure that no one has the wrong impression about PW. If no one does
    then its a few bytes wasted on a disk. If someone is looking for
    a PW club to fix there slice hopefully it will catch there 
    attention.
    
    --Bob
    

    
    Can anybody explain to me the differences between the PING ZZ-lite
    and PING KT shafts ?
    
    Thanks,
    Pat.
    

    re: .29
    
    Pat, 
    
    ZZ lites are older and are considered lower in performance than the
    KTs although both are quite easy to play. KTs are standard in newer Ping
    Eye 2 + sets and were developed for the so called advanced play
    of today's potential Ping customer. Both are rated "stiff" but the KTs 
    are slightly stiffer and have a higher kick point, more conducive for 
    low/boring and knockdown type shots. Both are custom shafts made 
    exclusively for Karsten by True Temper. In comparison, a True Temper 
    Dynamic Gold S shaft is stiffer than the KT and has a higher kick
    point but is more expensive. The KTs are a good quality shaft that
    most players will find acceptable for most shots but if money is
    not an issue there are better shafts that are a good replacement
    for either the ZZs or KTs.
    
    Rgds,
    
    	/stan
    
    
        

    RE: .30
    
    Hi Stan,
    
    Thanks for a very comprehensive explanation.
    
    Best regards,
    Pat.

    
    RE .4
    
    Pete,
    
    PINGS the most overpriced club on the market ??
    
    Sounds like you have a vendetta against Cavity back clubs in general.
    As regard PING Clones, well, you get what you pay for and you'll be
    looking to replace them a darn sight quicker than you would if you'd
    bought PING.
    
    (Why buy two cheepies when you can buy one set of PING !)
    
    "Not a cavity back kind of guy ?" ...why buy Hogan Edge in the first
    place then ?
    
    If they did'nt work for you then that does'nt mean that they won't work
    for anyone else.
    
    As to advice...well, TAYLOR MADE what?? ICW11's .....surely a joke....
    
    ....talking about "most overpriced clubs".........?
    
    
    The Ambassador.
    

re: .32
    
>>    Sounds like you have a vendetta against Cavity back clubs in general.
>>    As regard PING Clones, well, you get what you pay for and you'll be
>>    looking to replace them a darn sight quicker than you would if you'd
>>    bought PING.

    What you pay for is massive hype!  Granted, there are cheap clones on
    the market.  The better clones are every bit as good as the originals
    [and the grooves are legal :^)  ].  You also get a better choice of
    shafts in the clone market.  Although Karsten offers several shaft
    patterns, they are all stiff flex.

	PL