Conference 7.286::golf

    In my opinion it was a good win for the American's,they were to strong
    on the day.But does anyone know what happened on the 17th green.???
    Does anybody think that the match came down to a mere putting match
    (commentators comments).
    How many adverts do you have in America ????????
    
    Dav.....

    
    
     Congrats to the Americans for winning the cup back after 3 days of
    terrific golf. Langer was very unlucky to come back from 2 down with 3
    to play only to miss that putt at the last to tie the match.
    
     Calcavecchia must be a very relieved man after bottling it against
    Montgomerie. 
    
     Europe's debut men (Gilford apart) showed that they have nothing to
    fear against the best of America. Good performances from the new guys,
    pity Faldo and Woosnam didn't get going. Sevvy and Olly were the best
    players over the 3 days, they certainly don't like to loose to the
    Yanks.
    
     A terrific competition, let's hope it's the same at the Belfry in 2
    years time with the Europeans winning of course.
    
    ps Am I the only one to think the course was a "cow-pasture"? It seemed
    pretty unfair (for both teams) to go off the green or fairway and end
    up in one of those bits of waste land with some quite horrendous lies.
    
      Danny. 

    
    Being an American, I wanted the US to win the cup back. But, I must
    admit that I was almost rooting for Langer to make that last putt.
    I felt bad for him knowing he was under that much pressure. Of course
    you could say the same thing about Irwin missing the putt to win on 17.
    
    Langer did not lose it though, he tied his match. Terrific stuff, to
    come down to the last putt on the last hole of the last match!!!
    
    I didn't get to see as much of it as I wanted to. Didn't get to see
    that much of the course. What do others think of the course? I noted
    the last comment about a 'cow pasture'.  Interesting comment, coming
    from a European, as the course appeared more like a typical European 
    layout to me. Beyond personal views, what were the players comments?
                    -Joe

    
        Great tournament!  Better than any of the majors for sheer drama,
      tension and shot making under the most severe conditions.
    
        Re: a few back.   The Europeans have not "dominated" in their wins
      of previous cups.  All matches were close.  Two years ago US/Europe
      tied at 14 pts. each.  This is a fantastic rivalry now between two
      very closely matched teams.  
    
        Re: "cow pasture"  Have to disagree with this comment.  I believe
      the howling winds and greens that were cut too short were the major
      factors in the severity of play.  The waste areas seemed fair. Most
      of the players seemed to handle those shots with no problems.  They
      could ground their clubs, and most of the time seemed to have decent
      lies.  The 17th ranks right up there as one of the most difficult
      holes in all of golf.  Other than Faldo whining about the course,
      the players avoided critizing it and Pete Dye.
    
    -rick

    It was only natural for me to be sitting in my den, close to Worcester
    CC and watching the later part of this terrific match. In was 1927, at
    Worcester CC, when the first Ryder Cup was awarded. Few of us were even
    around, remember that Willie Ogg was the host pro and we may never see
    more even matching than this 1991 Ryder Cup.
    
    The captains were truely great as mentors, cheer leaders and role
    models. Industry could learn alot from this great match and the
    managing of the two teams. Only Sevie acted republican! The others
    truely won or lost with grace. 
    
    As a second generation German, I hated to see that missed putt on 18.
    As an American, I was very proud to see the cup come back to the
    colonies. Also, isn't it nice to see the nationalistic colors(i.e. red,
    white and blue) and the Desert Storm hats/bands wore by some of our
    team?

    
    Does anybody have a full rundown on the events.. i.e. who won who lost
    and the final points score. Unfortunately I missed the whole event here
    in southern Germany. Sounds like a pretty competitive 3 days worth.
    In anycase.. congrats to the US.
    
    Keith.

    
    I would have rather seen the U.S. win with Hale making his putt than
    Bernard missing his. Langer player a great match as did all the
    European players. I have always had great respect in Seve but now I
    understand why. The man is an unbelievable competitor. He is so
    intence. For some reason the Europeans still have that something
    special. A fire or passion that burns inside I don't see in our
    American team. I know it's there you can just see it in the Europeans eyes.
    Thier emotions are written on thier face.
    
    Pete
    

    Fred Couples, Paul Azinger and Jose O. are the best 3 players in the
    world, Fred I think proved that he can play under presure, I think this
    will help him to be a dominate player in years to come, the Zinger has
    nerves of steel, I can't beleive the putts he was making, I can't
    beleive he beat Jose. Jose is Jose, the guy is awsome.
    
    Jose and Corie Pavin are the slowest players in the world, to play that
    slow is upsurd, they both take 10 pratice swings, I can see it now,
    next Sat. morning all the Jose fans out there, taking 5 minutes to hit
    each shot, we all should be prepaired for some 8 hour rounds.
    
    Also I've never seen Langer play so fast.
    
    p

    re: a few back.  Cow Pasture is an accurate description.  It matters
    not which side of the Pond, a cow pasture is a cow pasture.  Having
    just played the last week of August at Hilton Head (Harbour Town,
    Shipyard, Planters Row etc.) I felt it was a tragedy to play at Kiwah. 
    Remember, Pete Dye with help from Jack N. also did Harbour Town. A
    better choice would have been to play in California as originally
    planned.
    
    Big Mac

    
    Hi Everyone ,
    
    
    	After watching the Ryder Cup and the intense pressure and
    emotions felt by all the players... it seems to me , that golf
    has the four majors but the Ryder Cup is truly THE most pressure
    packed of all!  I rate the Ryder Cup #1, then the majors all 2nd...
    
    	The golf course was awesome.
    	The europeans were awesome... I have never seen such incredible
    	clutch putting! Everyone came through big one time or another,
    	especially Jose'... he left no doubt that he's #1.
    
    	I felt sure Langer would make the putt on #18... it would have
    	been right...  Hale should have closed him out on #17. Just
    	goes to show what pressure can do. Hell even a player with
    	Hale's experience can feel it. Makes me feel better when I choke ;)
    	Nah! Nothing makes me feel better when I choke!
    
    	Congratulations to the American team for getting the Cup back.
    	They fought hard to do it. Azinger played incredible. I'd love
    	to watch the zinger and Jose' play matchplay all the time!
    
    	Walta
    

    I'm glad the USA team won also, but I cannot understand folks
    cutting Mark C. down (or anyone else for that matter) for what
    happened on Sunday. He did account for 2 1/2 points over the three days
    which is a significant contribution.
    I was most pleased with watching guys who earn millions playing the
    game we all love actually go out and play it for pride and for the
    good of the team and country as opposed to for themselves. I'd probably
    join in the slaughter of him if he shrugged it off as no big deal but
    the guy spent an hour in tears away from the course. No one knows how
    much he let folks down more than he does and he showed he was sorry for
    it. I'll take this guy on my team any day. So LIGHTEN UP!
    Irwin said it best at end when he told of how the experience of being
    so close to those you compete against week in/out thru-out the year was
    the most amazing feeling of the whole Ryder Cup experience.
    
    Gary
    

    I second  everything said about the emotion and intensity of the Cup.
    Not being American,  but  living  here,  I  had mixed feelings at the
    beggining of the Cup, but I soon realized I was definitely behind the
    local team (Well, I guess my blood moved me to root for Seve and Jos�
    Maria individually).
    
    I may  be  starting  a  rat  hole outside golf, but I didn't get  the
    significance of  the  Desert  Storm  caps.    Was  that  only to show
    patriotism?  Weren't the Europeans part of the same force?
    
    TD

re:                    <<< Note 1376.11 by SA1794::LONCZAKG >>>
                          -< Mark C deserves respect >-

	Of course he does, they all do.  Any golfer can extrapolate what he/she
	feels and imagine a level of pressure at the Ryder Cup that may in fact
	be insurmountable.

	But the simple fact is he was 4 up with 5 (or 4?) to play, and
	couldn't muster a single par.  Did you see his tee shot on 17?  I 
	was truly sorry for him at that point.  That 1/2 point he gave up 
	should have been the deciding factor, making the Irwin/Langer match 
	moot.  

	Remember '89?  Couples couldn't get down in 3 with a nine iron from
	the fariway on 18, and has been hounded since.  Mark C's 'failure'
	was far greater than Freddy's, so naturally the media and all of us
	will sieze on it.  
	
	In my opinion Fred Couple's play was the most impressive on both
	sides.  He had 89 on his back (and Payne Stewart for about 10 holes ;)
	and was deadly the entire tournament.

	Now if only they'd had ANYONE besides Charlie Jones in the booth...
	Johny Miller actually had to tell him to shut up at a couple different
	points of the broadcast.	

    
               Lanny Wadkins, thank you....the best , when everything is
    on the line, "raging bull" of the PGA , and the "Frank
    Robinson/Yogi Berra" equivilent of the tour.
     
               And joining that level , comes Fred C and Paul Z !!
    
    Yes, finally saw some swings and chips that looked like my mine 
    on a Sundy afternoon. The hooded sand wedge chip, and terrible putt by
    Irwin on 18 must have had  Sevi and the gang "drooling". 
    But hard to keep making those "6 footers" on Pete Dye greens.
    And it looked like Mark C watching Hale was saying:
                     "It's REALLY my fault"
    Awesome coverage by TV. Let's do it EVERY year.
    Ang
      
    

re:         <<< Note 1376.1 by BHUNA::DMILNE "I'm to sexy for the bond" >>>
                        -< "There's alway's next Time" >-

>    In my opinion it was a good win for the American's,they were to strong
>    on the day.But does anyone know what happened on the 17th green.???
>    Does anybody think that the match came down to a mere putting match
>    (commentators comments).
>    How many adverts do you have in America ????????
    
>    Dav.....


	I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but the coverage in the US
	completely screwed up Irwin's tee shot on 17.

	Watching live, I was SURE I saw his ball rolling directly behind the 
	flag (if you recall, where Chip Beck ended up), leaving him about a 
	relatively easy 10 foot putt.  When Langer played from way left by the
	"transition area", Irwin then putted from the same spot!  I was totally
	confused, and mentioned it to a friend of mine who had taped it.

	We reran the tape in slow motion, and here's what happened:

	Irwin hits, commentator says "It's starting left, trying to fade back."
	The camera is following it, looking right over the bunker where
	Langer's ball is.  You can BRIEFLY see another ball hit right next to 
	his, Charlie Jones even says "there it is".  Then the camera swings
	right to follow a THIRD ball that is rolling right behind the pin.
	Camera follows the ball to a stop, Johny Miller says "What a shot!".

	I'm guessing a spectator threw a ball out on the green.  But absolutely 
	NO mention of this was made on US network coverage.  They just showed
	Hale putting from the left.

	Mike

    Well done to the US. Great stuff throughout, I thought it was all over
    Saturday lunchtime, but some brilliant fourballs in the afternoon set
    up the last day. Generally speaking the atmosphere of the match seemed
    good as well.
    
    Faldo might be a great player, but he's an appalling man to have on
    your foursome team. His playing attitude seemed to be all wrong - he
    looked like he was playing on his own rather than with Dave Gilford.  
    
    The course created some great excitement, but surely there must be
    question marks about playing a course that is so new. Even on TV, the
    greens looked awful by Sunday. By Pete Dye's standards this course
    seemed fairly 'normal' - certainly no complaints about fairness. (I do
    think the 'waste areas' are a bit of a stupid idea mind you!) It was
    funny reading some of the press comments as well - one in my local
    paper started with the shock headline "FALDO SLAMS KIAWAH". If you
    actually read the quote below all he really says is that this is a very
    tough course and there will be some high scoring if the wind blows -
    100% true and not exactly controversial. (Of course he might well have
    said some other things too, but don't you think the press blow things
    up sometimes?)
    
    Was the TV coverage really 'awesome'? I thought it was awFUL. All those
    'player profiles' flashing on the screen, flashbacks, etc just getting
    in the way of the action. The ultimate had to be that session we saw on
    Saturday morning with Ben Wright giving the 5 year olds guide to
    matchplay - hilarious stuff.
    
    Paul

     In my previous note, I mentioned people who impressed me during the
    competition. I left out one significant name - Paul Broadhurst ! Think
    about this - the guy comes to the U.S. for the first time a week
    before, tees it up at the B.C. Open and finishes 8th. Then he jumps
    into the pressure cooker of the Ryder Cup and plays superbly. Quite an
    accomplishment.
    
     I got a kick out of watching Ballesteros "Rooting" for Langer to make
    the short putts on 16-18. He's going crazy, but I said at the time to a
    friend "Seve's gotta be thinking this is the LAST guy in the world he
    wants to see putting a short putt for his lungs. You KNOW he wouldn't
    bet a dime of his OWN money that Langer will make a short putt (And
    Seve HAS the cash) !" Truthfully, I thought Langer played great - in
    fact, as Trevino (Naturally) said of himself once, "If he could putt,
    all those cats would be playin' for 2nd place." Pretty tough for even a
    great putter to go to the well 3 times in a row under all that pressure
    and on those slick, windswept greens and hole all 3 putts. If Irwin
    didn't "Lunch" the chip, it might not have been as important.
    
     I also think that, despite his previous success, Calcavecchia choked.
    Hell, we all choke, but in golf, you're only as good as you are right
    now. For one of the 12 best players we have to finish the last 4 holes
    the way he did, when we needed it - well, I think it speaks for itself.
    Hell, if Nicklaus had done the same thing, would we be saying "Aww,
    that's o.k., the guy won 19 Majors" ? I don't think so ("Homey don't
    play that"). We'd be saying "All we needed was a routine finish from him
    to win, and instead he folds up like an accordion." Hey, it's a big,
    cruel, ugly world out there - and the losers have to pay the price. If
    players are willing to make millions in endorsements from sponsors
    because of the adulation we as golfers confer upon them, then they
    ought to step up to the plate and tell it like it is when they fall
    flat on their faces.
    
     Wouldn't you rather have seen Nicklaus or Trevino than Wayne Levi ?
    
    --Jack
    

    Re: #16 - Wasn't The Belfry "New" when they played the Ryder Cup on 
    it ?
    
     I had some concerns too, with all the great courses we have that we
    could have used, but I thought Kiawah was STRONG and o.k. (For the most
    part...). If they ever played at Portmarnock in the wind (And it's
    ALWAYS windy there), you'd see some scary numbers.
    
    --Jack

    Yes,the Belfry was new when they first played there - and that initial
    decision had more to do with Belfry Inc than the merits of staging the
    tournament there.
    
    I agree with you - Kiawah was fine. I just think Kiawah would have been
    even better if they'd waited a couple of years until the greens bedded
    in a bit more and some of the dunes had sprouted some grass.
    
    Paul

    RE:  .15.  I too thought that Irwin's ball came to rest behind the
    pin on 17, like you.  I kept saying to the people I was watching
    with, "Why is Irwin playing from the left, his ball was behind the
    pin".  I haven't heard or read anything explaining the confusion.
     
    
    Chuck

    Re Irwin's ball. I think that what we saw was a quick replay of an
    earlier shot from Irwin, that got in the way of the 'live' play. This
    happened with another player, I think O'meara, where I thought he had
    gone in the water, only to find that he was safely on the green.
    
    Congratulations to the US team on a fine win. This was the most
    exciting Sports event I have ever watched on TV. Three days of mood
    swings from despair to exhiliration and back to despair, left me 
    exhausted at the end. 
    
    I thought Woosie was the biggest let-down for Europe, followed by
    Faldo, who must be a pain to play with. Why did Gallacher not play
    Broadhurst until the 4th session ? Felt sorry for Gilford, who was
    badly treated throughout. 
    
    Kiawah may or may not have been a good choice for a Ryder cup, but it
    certainly was an incredible test of golf. I think the players are 
    to be congratulated on coping with the extremely difficult playing
    conditions. The 17th hole was a 'monster'. 
    
    Thought Azinger was outstanding. What a great competitor he is. It was
    also nice to see Freddy Couples lay to rest the reputation he has been
    saddled with since the 'Belfrey'.
    
    Norman
    
    
    difficult playing conditions raised 

re:                      <<< Note 1376.21 by FLYWAY::BELL >>>
                             -< Kiawah shoot-out. >-

    Re Irwin's ball. I think that what we saw was a quick replay of an
    earlier shot from Irwin, that got in the way of the 'live' play. This
    happened with another player, I think O'meara, where I thought he had
    gone in the water, only to find that he was safely on the green.
    

	No, I have a tape that I can stop and show you three balls near the 
	green.   The camera voilently pans right to pick up the other one 
	that's rolling gently to the back right.

	Something really fishy happened.

    i read in a newspaper (can't recall whether it was globe or not)
    that a fan threw a ball onto the green.  it was mentioned in another
    note.  i am surprised that the announcers didn't mention it.  they
    had to see the ball on their monitors.
    
    

    My perspective on things ...
    
    MArk C. choked, but who doesn't. The pressures are so unique in the
    Ryder Cup and it got to him this time around. The real important point
    is that his teammates picked up the slack and they won regardless. WE
    all know what he's capable of ... his win at the British Open against
    Greg Norman was immense. 
    
    As for Kiawah, I'm more of a purist and don't like courses that are
    gimmicky so to speak. I would have preferred a course that provides the
    ultimate test of golf through traditional shots. With no different
    lenghts of rough and no major trees, I was not happy with the course
    for the Ryder Cup. Was it an intersting course and an exciting event
    ... absolutely.
    
    As for the players, I still would have liked to have seen Nicklaus as
    part of the team. I agree with some previous comments ... the team from
    the US was a great team, but there were weaknesses. Personally
    speaking, I believe that Stockton has some bias toward (or against)
    Jack and that led to his decision on the last two players. 
    
    Re: .6 For Keith's benefit, here are the results of the three days of
    the Ryder Cup.
    
    First Round (Friday)
    ===========
    United States 4 1/2, Europe 3 1/2
    
    Ballesteros/Olazabel 	def. 	Azinger/Beck		2 and 1
    Wadkins/Irwin		def.	Guilford/Montgomerie	4 and 2
    Floyd/Couples		def.	Langer/James		2 and 1
    Stewart/Calcavecchia	def.	Faldo/Woosnam		1-up
    Richardson/James		def.	Pavin/Calcavecchia	5 and 4
    Wadkins/O'Meara			Torrance/Feherty	Halved
    Couples/Floyd		def.	Faldo/Woosnam		5 and 3
    Ballesteros/Olazabel	def.	Azinger/Beck		2 and 1
    
    Saturday - Morning Foursomes
    ============================
    United States 7 1/2, Europe 4 1/2
    
    Azinger/O'Meara		def.	Faldo/Gilford		7 and 6
    Wadkins/Irwin		def.	Torrance/Feherty	4 and 2
    Stewart/Calcavecchia	def. 	Richardson/James	1-up
    Ballesteros/Olazabel	def	Couples/Floyd		3 and 2
    
    Saturday - Afternoon Fourball
    =============================
    United States 8 , Europe 8
    
    Woosnam/Broadhurst		def. 	Azinger/Irwin		2 and 1
    Langer/Montgomerie		def.	Pavin/Pate		2 and 1
    Richardson/James		def.	Wadkins/Levi		3 and 1
    Couples/Stewart			Ballesteros/Olazabel	Halved
    
    Sunday - Individual Matches
    ===========================
    United States 14 1/2 , Europe 13 1/2
    
    Pate				Gilford			Halved
     (by agreement - Match not played)
    Feherty			def.	Stewart			2 and 1
    Faldo 			def.	Floyd			2-up
    Montgomerie				Calcavecchia		Halved
    Pavin			def. 	Richardson		2 and 1
    Ballesteros			def. 	Levi			3 and 2
    Azinger			def.	Olazabel		2-up
    Beck 			def.	Woosnam			3 and 1
    Broadhurst			def.	O'Meara			3 and 1
    Couples			def.	Torrance		3 and 2
    Wadkins			def.	James			3 and 2
    Irwin				Langer			Halved
    
    Ryder Cup Records
    =================
    American Team			European Team
    =============			=============
    Couples		3-1-1		Ballesteros		4-0-1
    Wadkins		3-1-1		Olazabel		3-1-1
    Irwin		2-1-1           Broadhurst		2-0-0
    Stewart		2-1-1           Richardson              2-2-0     	
    Calcavecchia	2-1-1           James                   2-3-0
    Floyd		2-2-0           Langer                  1-1-1
    Azinzer		2-3-0           Feherty                 1-1-1
    O'Meara		1-1-1           Woosnam                 1-3-0
    Beck		1-2-0           Faldo                   1-3-0
    Pavin		1-2-0           Torrance                0-2-1
    Pate		0-1-1           Montgomerie             0-2-1
    Levi		0-2-0           Gilford			0-2-1

    re: 15,20,21
    
    An account in the newspaper explained the "third Ball"  as being one
    rolled by spectator.  The announcers only saw the shot,flight and
    landing as we did so they knew nothing.
    
    re; The course
    
    Could be that the course was tough because of the wind...but I can't
    help thinking that as soon as these guys knew they could hit shots from
    the waste areas with some degree of accuracy and knew also that their
    opponent was likely to be in there as well, they stopped worrying and
    just blasted away.  Keep in mind, you did not see many 1 irons off the
    tees.
    
    re:CHoke
    
    How about O'Meara hitting two or was it three in the water on 17.
    
    Re: New respect
    
    I think I like Corey Pavin.  Seems to thrive on the pressure and not
    afraid to show his emotion.  His shot out of the trap on 17 was one of
    the most exciting views of the tournament..coming out of the trap and
    following his ball..waving it closer to the hole and yelling.  That is
    the type of behavior only the Ryder Cup can bring out.
    
    SCD

    Does anyone out there remember the name of the player who hit a
    three wood off of the infamous 17th green on the final day of the
    match?  
    
    Thanks for the info ...
    

    Know that Hale Irwin hit one and it seems like a few others did also. 
    
    SCD

    
    Hi,
    
    	I'm pretty sure Chip Beck hit a three wood.
    
    	Walta

    .28 is correct...Beck and Irwin both hit 3 woods...
    
    both ended up on the fringe behind and right of flag app. 15-20ft
    
    captain of team when interviewed said Beck was figuring 2 iron
    and decided instead on a faded 3 wood because of wind....
    
    wind was gusting up to 30mph...carry to green was 193 with no wind
    played abot 215-220 with the wind...
    
    not a situation you'd like to face everyday....
    

>    both ended up on the fringe behind and right of flag app. 15-20ft
    
	Actually Irwin ended up far left, just over the bunker.  Within a few
	feet of Langer's ball.  What we saw was a ball thrown by a spectator
	that ended up behind the pin.

	fwiw,
	Mike