Conference 7.286::golf

    You could also play gross and net skins, dividing the pot in half.  A
    handicap, if properly established, measures the potential of the
    player, not his average or usual score.  Since many spend time
    manicuring the handicap, the system is sometimes flawed.  However, the
    low handicapper, because of his/her potential to hit greens in
    regulation should be in position to halve many holes and save a skin. 
    His/her consistancy should pay off and allow for a shot at carry overs.  
    The high handicapper can have one or two great holes, which is rewarded
    in a skins format.  That is the idea.  
    
    SCD

RE: .1

}    								     A
}    handicap, if properly established, measures the potential of the
}    player, not his average or usual score.

	huh..?? ah..er...could you explain this??

	everyone at my club, in the 10-16 handicap range, has the potential
of shooting par but their handicaps don't reflect it...I think their
handicaps reflect their average score....

    So-cal,
    	I am not questioning the handicap itself nor its honest portrayal
    of the person's ability but its use with skins itself or (not my
    purpose here) its applicability to other non straight match play like
    scotch or scramble (I see problems there too) but in the straight
    observation that it just doesn't work for skins.
    	The main reason for that in skins is the one tie all tie scenario
    and my observation that the main difference between the single digit
    and double digit handicapper is in the number of double bogeys (and up)
    the latter gets.  But with three double digits and a single playing
    skins invariably one of the three can net par for every par of the
    single and same for net birdie.
    	Also, in skins tie is the rule and it usually all comes down to the
    handicap holes where a stroke is simply too large an advantage.  The
    only way I could see it is if the difference was 9 then a stroke per
    hole would be okay.
    	What I would really like to see is a formula for using existing
    handicaps with skins and support for my own policy of not getting or
    giving strokes period when playing skins with people within 2 or 3 of
    my handicap.

    re:.2
    
    The handicap is based on the "best" 10 of your last 20 rounds, thereby
    reflecting the lower scores in your universe.  This means that a really
    bad score will never count, but it may push a good score out of the set
    of 20.  All really good scores count and push out a bad score from the
    set of 20.  Thus, the player that shoots a 76 when his/her handicap is
    high should see a dramatic effect on the handicap for 20 rounds. At an
    average of 5 rounds per month, a good score should impact for 4 months.
    Afew good rounds in a row, a hot streak, will hammer you for months,
    but a bad streak has to last twice as long to return you to your
    "average".
    
    Some golfers do not post good scores, or don't adjust out the double
    and triple bogies, thereby inflating the handicap.  Others stop playing
    after 15 holes if they have a good round going, thereby not having to
    post it.
    
    SCD

    re:3
    
    In some scrambles, they limit the differential or total the team can
    have for handicaps.  In a skins, if you don't do net and gross, you may
    try playing at 50% of the differential, thereby givng the strokes on
    the tougher holes and taking the strokes from the middle and lower
    holes.
    
    You are right, many handicaps are earned because of the 8's and 9's,
    but those should not be posted anyway.  The real issue, is that if the
    handicap is because of a few bad holes then the potential for a par or
    natural birdie remains, especially on the middle handicap holes(7-12).
    
    Keep in mind that the perfect handicapping will create a tie or "carry
    over".  This however usually is a point missed by the lower
    handicapers, because they are used to negotiating a winning advantage. 
    Try it a few ways and see, but my experience is that you skins pot will
    be smaller if the high handicappers know they have little chance to
    win, and thus are just subsidzing the low handicappers round.  The
    potential for making a good/great shot must be considered, and the low
    handicapper has a better chance of shooting birdies(natural) than the
    high handicapper.  This is what wins skins.  Also, the low handicapper
    has a better chance of reaching greens in regulation, thus improving
    the chance for birdies.  I think it evens out if played at normal
    handicaps, but try it a few ways and let us know.
    
    SCD
    

    re: .4
    
    so you just contridicted what you said in .1 that I questioned
    in .2....

    Re:
    
    Hate to say I did not contradict myself...it was just clear to me that
    you weren't in the mood for input, just verification of your beliefs. 
    So, I just verified your intelligence and suggested another approach. 
    Good luck.
    
    SCD

    re: .7
    not my beliefs...the slope system says nothing about a persons
    handicap being their potential but it does refer to average scores...
    
    as for suggesting another approach..it's sounds like your just
    throwing more B.S. to me.....
    
    

    Slope does dictate handicaps, it is only a factor in such.  Second, if
    you understand the math involved, it cannot be an average because it is
    not calculated involving all scores.  It is more closely a hybrid of a
    weighted moving average with an emphasis on the higher scores.  This in
    fact reflects the potential because it includes the players best
    scores, not the worst.  The problem is that the lower a handicap goes,
    the harder it is to perform to, and in many cases a handicap reflects a
    recent "hot streak" that is not truly representative of the golfers
    normal round....BUT the handicap does reflect the persons potential for
    shooting a low score....thereby alerting his/her opponents as to the
    likelyhood of such an event.  In many tournaments, the Lowest handicap
    for the last twelve months is used, just for this reason.
    
    As to the B.S., this must be the acronym for your proposed method,
    otherwise known as the "Buddy System", or guess what guys, since your
    all my buddies, I devised a method whereby I can win , trust me you
    will all like it.
    
    SCD

    
        Handicaps are "mean or average" based.
    
        In other words, regardless of medal, match, 2 ball, 4 ball,skins,
    
    points for par, etc after 18 holes , in a perfect model ,
     
    everyone shoots their handicap and the ALL matches are halved.
    
        The handicap IS an average and that's why you have deviations,
      winners and losers. No one shoots their average.
    
        If your deviating down you win
    
        If your deviating up you lose (like me)
    
        Reductions to full handicaps in member guests , is to remove the 
    
    "double sand bag" syndrome. So you play at 80% or 75%.
    
        But a full handicap is the proper way to go in ALL matches.
    
        You will get your clock cleaned in a match where your a 14 playing
    
        in with 8's, 7's and 5's and they say: "skins so... no strokes"!!!
        
        RIGHT !!!!
        
        That's why you have a handicap.
    
        Ang
    
        
    
    

    Ang,
    	Good example.  5,7,8 and a 14.  Yes, the 14 with nothing is likely
    to exercise his ATM card but would have a better chance in skins
    straight up than in any other type of competition.
    	However, if he received 9,7,6 strokes from a,b,c then he would be
    the one cleaning clocks.
    	I suggest taking the 5,7,8 average and rounding to 7 and giving the
    14 1/2 stroke on 7 holes and the other 3 even.  Then if the 14 pars and
    no one is lower then he wins, if one of the three others birdies he/she
    wins.
    	The killer is when the stroke handicap results in ties making the
    opportunity holes for the more skilled scarce or none.
    	Possible the 7 and the 8 in this example would also get the 1/2
    stroke on 1 or 2 of the holes.
    
    	I also realize that this 1/2 stroke concept would get my tunic
    rended in the halls of THE country club in Brookline.
    
    oh well back to my locusts and honey lunch

    re: .10
    
    that's the way I thought it was "not potential" as some would
    have us think...can you imagine the first tee with SCD...
    
    	guy comes up to join us and says handicap is 15 and SCD says
    	what was your lowest score ever???
    
    	guy says hey, I got hot once and shot a 72 but I only took
    	25 putts that day...
    
    	SCD says but you have the "potential" to shoot 72 so your
    	handicap should be a 2 not 15....
    
    	well there goes that match down the drain...
    
    ....{;^)....
    
    

    Ang
    
    Couldn't agree more.  If your handicap is a "fair" representation of
    how you play.  A true average includes all samples (scores) a handicap
    reflects your potential (as told to me by a -1 state champ) because you
    only playy to that score half of the time, the rest of the time you
    play worse.  My problem is my handicap shows up on half of each swing,
    I just can seem to predict which half of the swing it will appear.
    
    SCD
    

    re:
    
    Look up the rules guys, it's not my invention.  Once again for you slow
    of concept folks
    
    A handicap is calculated based on the BEST 10 (not last or some other
    subset) of your LAST 20 scores, actually to be precise, it is
    calculated on the AVERAGE of the DIFFERENTIALS from your BEST 10 of
    your LAST 20 scores.  There fore, the player that shot a 72 and tries
    to convince you he/she is a 25 is not allowing for the impact the 72
    will have on the handicap.  A 25 handicap will drop to a 22.5 the day
    the 72 is posted (actually at the beginning of the next month) if no
    other scores are posted.  Easy to figure:
    
    A 25 handicap has a total differential of 250 for the ten scores used
    to calculate the handicap.  Since the 72 is a "0" differential(assuming
    a 72 rating for this example), the differential for the BEST 10 scores
    now becomes 225, thereby changing the handicap to a 22.5.  Now if this
    player were to have more than one round of this nature in the next 20
    rounds (usually a 6-10 month period) then the handicap would drop
    further.  Once again, the high or bad scores never get factored in
    but the good scores ALWAYS do.  A 72 score would not only add a "0"
    differential to the set, but would push out the highest differential of
    the 10 scores.  Since the average of the ten scores is 25, it stands to
    reason that this score being forced out by the 72 is a high score.
    
    The reason the handicap reflects a persons potential more than the
    average score is because the math does not allow the very bad scores to
    count (Unless you shoot very badly ALL of the time).  The potential is
    then reflected as being that golfers "POTENTIAL" for 1) shooting par on
    the hole (the lower the handicap the higher the POTENTIAL 2) reaching
    the green in regulation, making putts, chipping it close and all of the
    other parts of golf you can name.
    
    The math is simple, but the fact that noone wants to "play to their
    handicap" is one that Ang put to rest.  Just as in golf, you play it as
    it LIES - A high handicapper has the same chance to shoot his/her
    handicap as does a low handicapper, so why penalize the high
    handicapper...both handicaps are calculated the same, there is no
    compensation made for the low handicapper other than the inability to
    post more double bogies than the handicap, and no triple bogies at all.
    But a high handicapper can't take any of the "snowmen" they shoot.
    
    Of course if you are concerned about getting skinned, don't play the
    game.
    
    SCD 

There is a basic (I'll use the term basic loosely here) problem with using
handicaps for skins (or match play) contests.  The problem is that strokes
are usually given the higher handicapper on the more difficult holes. These
are the very holes on which both the low and the high handicapper are
expected to be over par.  Thus the high handicapper is almost guaranteed to
win or tie most of these holes. 

The easier holes are the ones that the low handicapper is expected to par
and the higher handicapper is expected to be over par on thus producing a
tie which is the desired result of a handicapping system. 

What exacerbates the above situation is that the high handicapper is most
likely to be less consistent than the low handicapper.  Where the low
handicapper probably shoots pars and bogies the high handicapper is more
likely to shoot a few pars and bogies and three or four double or tripple
boggiess.  These few double or triple bogies are the ones that raise the
handicap, leaving the high handicapper's pars and bogies to skin the low
handicapper's wallet. 

Handicaps that are computed on the total score work best in stroke play
contests (total score) than on match play (hole scores) contests. 

Perhaps what's needed is a handicap system for match play.

    ADD to .14
    
    I would like to pose a few questions about handicap, just as we have
    about rules.
    
    You are playing on a course where the rating is 72.0
    
    1.You shoot 10 rounds of 97 and 10 rounds of 77.  What is your handicap?
    
    Answer: No it is not a 15(based on the average of the scores) your
    handicap is a 4.75(not adjusting for slope).  
    
    Why:  You take the 10 best rounds, the differential being atotal of 50,
    or 10 x 5, multiply it by 95% = 47.5 and divide by 10 = 4.75.  Now this
    golfer may feel he/she is a 15 but the official handicap would be very
    different. This why the handicap is NOT AN AVERAGE.
    
    2.Question:Same course.  You are a 15 handicap and you shoot a 72.  How many
    rounds do you have to play and what do you need to shoot before your
    handicap returns to a fifteen.
    
    Answer: 20 consecutive rounds at 87+. Some may think that the next
    round of 102 would balance out the 72.  Wrong.  Since the 102 would
    never be counted until it is one of the BEST scores of the last 20.
    This also why the handicap is not an AVERAGE.
    
    3.Question: Same course, what is the worst score a 7 handicapper can
    post?
    How about a 15 handicapper?
    
    Answer: The 7 cannot post (for handicap purposes) a score higher than a
    97. Why: Because he/she can only post 7 double bogies and 11 bogies or
    25 over par.  The 15 handicapper can post a 105 (15 doubles and 3
    bogies)
    
    While it is true that based on the alignment of planets and sun spots,
    a 25 handicapper can shoot a very low round, maybe even a 72, he/she is
    no longer a 25 handicapper...in fact he/she cannot post a score high
    enough to get back to a true 97 average.   Why.  To have a 25 handicap
    the posted scores" differential would indicate a 97.  A 72 would
    therefore need a 122 to reach the "average of 97" (194/2 = 97)  The
    highest score a 25 handicapper can post is a 115.(7 triple bogies, 11
    double bogies).  Add to this the facts stated in the questions above
    and you can see that a handicap is not a "mean" or "true Average", it
    does not reflect your last several rounds unless they were very good
    rounds and a 25 who shoots a 72 is at worst a 21.(72 + 115=187/2 = 93.5
    or roughly a 21 handicap, 72+21=93) Meaning you have already given him/her
    4 strokes.  Can't get there from here folks. 
    
    
    So, you either believe that your opponent shot a 72 over 6 months ago,
    (but I have not met a golfer that brags much about a round shot that
    long in the past) or you can pay him/her now and just have fun.
    
    
    SCD
    
    Que

    re:15
    
    You are soo right.  Funny thing, even high handicappers are low
    handicappers to somone.  I can remember when I was a 19 (oh to be there
    again) getting two pops on the longest par 5's on most courses.  Of
    course, lentgh was not my problem.  My companions would almost concede
    this hole to me and figure to hammer me on the par threes, since they
    knew I could not hit it straight, putt it straight or chip it straight. 
    I had a hot streak once and hammered my handicap( down to an 7.6), and
    am still paying $$$ for the streak.  I was no more a 7.6 than I was a
    rocket scientist, but the way handicaps are figured, I was labeled.  
    
    all of a sudden I was "one of them".  Once when I was a 17 I played
    with a group of buddies, and in an effort to make things interesting ,
    they bet some money and assigned handicaps to those in the group that
    had no official handicap.  One fellow was most eloquent and campaigned
    for a 23, based on a normal round of 92-98.  He shot a 74, took all of
    our money.  Even then at a 17 I was a low handicapper being taken
    advantage of by a "High Handicapper".  
    
    Golf is the only sport (oh, maybe drag racing) that tries to balance
    the event to allow different levels to compete.  Can you imagine having
    Roger CLements back up to second or have to throw easy because the
    batter is not as good?
    
    I can guarantee that most 7's would want a few strokes from the club
    pro.  If the spread of talent is large, then group the golfers in
    flights and let them play at handicaps in there range, but use the
    handicaps....everyone will eventually have the chance to be a "low
    handicapper" someday.
    
    SCD
    
    Ever wonder why they call it "Skins"?  

This discussion has been interesting, but I've been too busy with work to pitch
in before now.

>    2.Question:Same course.  You are a 15 handicap and you shoot a 72.  How many
>    rounds do you have to play and what do you need to shoot before your
>    handicap returns to a fifteen.

Actually if you shoot 11 consecutive rounds > 87 you will start to see the
handicap rise!  Because that's the point where you are starting to push the
87's out of the last 20 scores.

Re: A couple back about a 7 and a 14 in match play saying that the 7 had to
give strokes on the toughest holes & it would be unfair because that's where
the 7 needed the strokes the most.  Monday I played just such a match.  I am 
the 14 and played a 7.  It was more likely that the 7 would par the high stroke
holes than I would.  Getting the stroke kept me in the match, not gave me a
competitive advantage.

Skins is not a fair game & the problem isn't with the handicap, it's with the
format.  You can be playing aboslutely lousy but as long as two or more are 
halving each hole the skins keep carrying over.  You just have to have your one
good hole when no one else has one to clean up!  That applies to a match where
everyone is of even ability!  The reason that skins are fun is because it helps
disassociate skill from the potential to clean up! 

Larry
    

    re: SCD...
    
    	I think you've taken enough ribbing and that was not my original
    intent...I just wanted to start the discussion that has been going on
    
    	I have known from when slope first started that what you basically
    said is true but need some more ways to try and get it across to people
    at my club who think it is unfair....
    
    	I've tried to explain dozens of times how "your last two bad scores
    don't even get counted" and get looks like I'm nuts...but all you've
    said is the way the system works...and seeing's how it's the best
    system we presently have...well...
    
    	I agree completly with one of your earlier statements that we 
    should just use the handicaps across the board..i.e. always play
    net is what I'd feel was best..the reason is handicaps are there
    for a reason, just like bowling...o why not use them as such...
    
    	picking on your "potential" statement seemed like a good way
    to get things started....
    
    	I liked your examples and explaniations....!!
    
    dick
    

    re: SCD
    
    also what a lot of people don't seem to realize is that under the
    slope system all you have to do is shoot to your handicap about
    once every five time out and your total handicap index is only
    going to change a few tenths, therefore your home course handicap
    will stay almost the same...!!!!

    re:18-20
    
    Especially Larry, you are right about the change in handicap at 11
    rounds, but the 72 will still affect the handicap for a total of twenty
    rounds.  It is interesting, as Dick said, that there is so little
    understanding about a handicap and its use.  Skins is probably a bad
    example, but I don't think it is any more unfair for the low or high
    handicapper, un less one or both have been "manicuring" the handicap.
    
    Most club players get real smart about the nuances of "handicap
    manicuring" and many publinks folks don't that involved. Most try to
    keep the handicap artificially high prior to certain events, which is
    why many clubs now have invoked "tourney handicaps" based on tournament
    rounds and many use the Low Handicap for the last 12 months.
    
    I've felt both ends of the whip, and have settled at a 12 for now, and
    I find myself pumped up when shooting a 79-80 on my home course and
    then realize that it is rated 68, so I have shot my handicap...Is that
    good or is that bad???  The answer is...Depends!!  It seems now that I
    get equally excited about a sub 80 round or a low 90 round...one means
    my game is coming together and the other means I can get a few more
    strokes next time out.
    
    SCD

to SCD

I think you did a great job explaining what a Hdcp is and what it is not! My
observations are that many players do not put in all their scores because 
they feel they shot there average or they did bad etc.. Some don't put in there
low scores I suspect but they are probably very few and I say good luck to their
conscience. As you know not putting in your low score has a dramatic impact on 
your Hdcp.

For myself I put in all my scores, regardless, even if it is match play - I'll
keep my score. When we play skins we usually do it by team and match the abilities.
I think the Hdcp system is the best we got to even play although it is not perfect
and can be manipulated. In general it works.