Conference 7.286::golf

     Unless you can give us some guidelines on what you want to spend for
    annual dues and (if required) initiation, it's kinda like asking "what
    color is the sky ? Unless you play a LOT, there aren't many places you
    can play that are cheaper to join than just pay per round greens fees.
    I suspect people probably join for other reasons than amortizing the
    per round course. However, if that is their prime raison d'etre, it's
    o.k. with me. For example, I belong to a semi-private course, but I
    wouldn't join Worcester C.C. for free, because I've never liked the
    atmosphere or the pro. There are other private courses though which are
    fine in every respect...
    
    --Jack

    Sky Medow rates:
    
      $2400.00 - single
      $3000.00 - couple
      $3300.00 - family
    
    Gives you prepaid greens fees and perfered tee times, and you can walk
    after 12 any day, otherwise it's a public course. I was a member last
    year but at those prices ($850 increase for a couple from last year),
    I may not join.
    
    peter

    Nashua CC rates:
    
     $2546.00 - Couple, less $315.00 for a single
    
    Need to spend $40.00 per month on food plus it's $2000.00 init fee,
    it's a private course.
    
    peter

    Amherst CC rates:
    
    $950 - Single
    $1400 - Couple
    
    Public course with no priv's, it's just prepaid green fees
    
    peter

    Overlook is not going private this year, they had a very poor response
    to their initial membership driver last fall, they said maybe next
    year.
    
    peter

    Manchester CC rates:
    
    500 - init fee
    2090 - dues
    100 - food and bev. per month
    25 - capital fund per month
    630 - additional golfer
    
    total for a couple comes to about $4200, now if dec stock would only go
    up 100 points i could afford it
    
    peter

Peter,

That was some great info on the various greater Nashua courses.  Do you happen
to know anything about the length of the waiting lists?

Larry

    Larry,
    
    2 - 3 years ago the waiting list at the private courses was 50-70
    people, or about 2 years, now there is no waiting list, very
    interesting what the economy is doing to golf here in southern nh.
    
    i'm still very interested in the costs of other courses in other area's,
    eastern mass, western mass, calf., europe, down south, etc..
    
    peter

     I think that at some of the private courses you have to be introduced
    and sponsored by a member or members. If you don't know anyone who is a
    member, or don't want to impose on a distant acquaintance who is a
    member, you could still have problems. Generally, the better (or more
    traditional) the course, the tougher the intro. Today's crummy economy
    may have put some of these places in a financial plight where they'll
    relax restrictions, however.
     If you can tell me your geographic areas of interests more
    specifically, I can tell you what the best private courses are. Some of
    them (like a Vesper or Salem, for example) are gonna be tough, though.
    
    --Jack
    
    
    
    
    
    --Jack

    Peter,
    
    Membership costs at my club: West Berks, Chaddleworth (20 miles from
    Reading UK).
    
    Joining fee:         180 pounds
    5-day membership:    300 pounds  (available now)
    7-day membership:    400 pounds  (1-2 year waiting list)
    
    
    
    Membership about 1000, very active club with competitions every week.
    
    Cheers
    
    John
    

    john,
    
    how many dollors = 1 pound? wow, 1000 members, that seams like a lot,
    is it only 18 holes, is the course open all year long.
    
    jack,
    
    i'm not looking for specific courses, just trying to get an idea on
    what people around the world pay for golf memberships at both private
    and public courses.
    
    peter

     As a point of interest, the going initiation rate for premier courses
    on Chicago's North shore when I was there a few years back was $ 40k.
    The best deal among the great courses was Olympia Fields (with 36
    holes) at $ 17k.
     There are places around the country where $ 100k is "the nut," and
    others where the initiation is mild, but the blood test is unreal. In
    Japan, there are several courses where corporate memberships are
    required in order to afford the initiation of - $ 1 million !
     I think you'll find that after initiation and yearly dues, the
    "hidden" fees are:
    Dining room minimum - normally under $ 100 per month, but some places
    don't include booze and many charge for all 12 months.
    Locker fee.
    Club Storage (generally optional) - $ 50 per year or so in New England.
    Carts, lessons, tournament entry fees and handicap fees are extra.
    
    --Jack

    Current exchange rate is about $1.95= one pound.  
    
    The West Berks course is open all year round, unless frozen/soaked 
    which happens 2-3 times a year.
    
    1000 members is a lot but only causes problems at weekends when to get
    a game you either have to enter the competitions or book tee-times, 
    the rest of the week is fairly easy to play.  During the longer 
    daylight days in the summer, you can get a game most times even 
    at weekends.  
    
    Another good byproduct of the number is that you get to meet and play 
    with a lot of different people as the pro normally makes all games up 
    to 4-balls during the weekends. This leads to a very sociable, thriving 
    club atmosphere.
    
    Reading the notes has shattered my fond impression that golf was
    inexpensive to play in the US. The fees being posted seem colossal !
    (However, you are able to buy kit at about half the price of the
    selfsame kit in the UK !).
    
    Cheers
    
    John
    

    FERNCROFT in Danvers, Massachusetts membership rates are:
    
    		Regular		All Inclusive
    Single	$2800		$4000
    Family	$3500		$5000
    
    		Regular membership include unlimited golf.
    
    		All inclusive membership includes unlimited golf, 
    		unlimited cart, club storage (and I think, health club 
    		privileges).
    
    There is no waiting list to get in at this time.
    
    The problem with Ferncroft is that they have many days when it's 
    tough to play....tournaments, outings, hotel quests, etc.
    
    Excellent course and conditions...

    Rich,
    
    all time favorite course for me would be Ferncroft..
    and I'm a die hard Stow Acres type..speaking of which..
    
            * 400 bucks to join "Gold Card" includes practise area
              for some wedge shots, sand, putting and general
               short play practise(all year, which may be the best
                    part of the deal)
              same rate for third year in a row.
            * This ENTITLES you to get early tee times on week-ends
                      and holidays, and any other time(9-12)
                      Non Gold Card holders must call after 12 noon.
            * Greens fees : 30 for North 28 for South on week ends
                           and holidays( 
                          : Mon thru Fri: ? 26 North  24 South
            * Gold card gives you discount at Pro shop 5%
                  $2 off on week end greens fees
                  $3 off on daily green fees
         They also have monthly rates 120 to 150 a month , all the
                   golf you want on week days. ?
    
    IMPROVEMENTS:
                    New grass on greens, faster,truer.
                      All holes will have graphics as to hole lay out
                      and distance from REDS, WHITES, and BLUES.
                      Ball washer on EVERY hole.
                      Every hole will have 250, 200, 150 and 100
                       yard stones in fairway
                      Every par three will have sand buckets for 
                                 divot repair.
                          (they don't know Walt uses a deuce on two North!)
    Sounds like their trying to get back in the "top fifty"
    after 3 years of absence.
                             Total costs for me run :
                                     400 + (40x30) + 200 + ? =2000
                             Plus DEC league 180+beer        = 300
                                                             -----
                                                             2,300
    
    Play fell off last year due to "economics" and expect the same
    this year. That's why they are up on improvements. The greens
    last year, except for Friday mornings were ragged but at least
    they almost never lose any during the winter.
                          Ang
                             
                           
    
                                                           
               

    Just a reminder to our overseas friends, the prices you see here
    are for private club or special membership packages. We have
    thousands of public courses that you can callup every week and
    make (or try to make) a tee time. The prices can range from
     $5 to $200 for a round of golf depending on the stature of the
    course. Also, many puplic courses offer monthly tickets that allow
    you to play all the golf you can for a set fee. In my area, most of
    the muni's charge $50-$60 for a monthly pass. Golf can be very costly
    here but it can also be pretty inexpensive.
    
    Mad Hacker

Jack,

I know there are a lot of courses both public and private in the Phoenix area,
but what are the premier clubs?

Rick

    I'm not real strong on SW courses, but here are a couple in no
    particular order:
    
    Desert Highlands
    Troon
    Troon North 
    Orange Tree (public, but real nice)
    Camelback
    Arizona Biltmore
    The Wigwam.
    
     From what I've heard, Desert Highlands and "The Troons" are the best.
    
    --Jack

    To give you some ideas for the west coast of scotland.
    
    I pay $285 for unlimited annual golf on 8 different courses,
    all within 15 miles of home.
    
    This is a special season ticket for residents of the area.
    All areas in scotland have similar deals.
    
    7 of the 8 are 18 hole.All are well kept.
    
    All the courses are public but holders of these tickets have every
    second tee-off time reserved.
    
    The courses are open all year.
    
    There is a mixture of links and parkland courses.
    
    It would cost me in excess of $2000 per year if I paid per round
    rather than taking advantage of this deal.
    
    I have access to approx 30 private clubs ,including Royal Troon,
    Portland,Old Prestwick,Turnberry ,all within 1hours drive.
    These cost on average $30-40/day ticket and supplement my competition
    golf.
    
    p.s. There was an uproar by the golfing fraternity when the annual
         ticket increased by 20% for this year.But after seeing some
         of the costs in other places then I don't think we can complain.
    
    regards
    
    Ken

    
    
    	Hey Ken,
    
    		Could you please send directions to Scotland from Mass? :)
    
    	Sounds like you are in golf heaven...  I pay $650 for an annual
    family membership for unlimited golf on one 9 hole course! And I'm
    getting a bargain?  In the US I am...
    
    Here in the US, if one person wants to do something, it'll be cheap,
    if two want it, double the cost, three... triple it  etc. 
    
    
    	walta   waiting for the snow to melt ;(

         Was reading an article last night in a local newspaper written
    by their golf writer. He was talking about the same thing we are !!
    How much cheaper it is to play golf outside America and how a lot of
    private courses block out a certain amount of time for public play
    so that everyone has the opportunity to experience playing on some
    classy courses. He was saying how nice it would be if certain U.S.
    courses would adopt policies like that. You know, Augusta, Cypress
    Point, Butler, etc. (FAT CHANCE !!!)
    
    Mad Hacker

    re: .21
    
    most likley based on supply and demand economics?
    
    If everyone wants to play the better courses the price goes up...
    If not that many want to play the better courses different arrangements
    are made to keep people comming ala the system used overseas at many
    courses....
    
    just a guess..

    I think the mindset of people at many of our historic private courses
    is that they don't have ANY obligation to the golfing public, nor do
    they want one. They figure that they spent their whole life (and a lot
    of cash) getting into Cypress Point, etc. and the last thing they want
    to see is Butch, Bert and Ernie on x days of the year. Plus, they don't
    need the revenue.
     I like the attitude in the U.K. where, if you have credentials and are
    properly introduced, you can play the great courses. It seems to me
    that this gives something back to golf, and that to me is something
    everyone should do.
    
    --Jack

    We have our own version of what the rest of the world does. It's called
    RESORT GOLF. You get to play a nice course by paying $100+ plus the
    cart, and 6 hours later you have a scorecard and matchbook to leave
    "around" the guest bathroom.
    
    Ken

    Here's a couple from the Augusta Area..
    
    
    PRIVATE
    
    	Augusta Country Club 
    
    		Unlimited - Single	$850
    			    Family 	$1,400
    
    		Plus - One time initiation fee @ $500
    		       Restaraunt commitment     $ 30/month (9 months)
    
    		They have a pool, tennis courts, resturaunt, locker rooms
    		and club storage. Carts are $25 for 18.
    
    	Waterville Country Club
    
    		Unlimted	Single	$550
    				Family	$800
    
    		Rest. Commitment - $30/month (9 months)
    
    		They have locker rooms, rest. and bar. No pool yet.
    
    		Carts are $25 for 18.
    
    PUBLIC
    
    	Natanis   (27 hole course)
    
    		Unlimited 	Single	$400
    				Family  $525 (2 people)
    
    		18 hole fee		$18
    
    		Carts		$18 for 18
    
    	Westernview    (9 holes)
    
    		Unlimited	Single $245
    				Family $300 (2 people)
    
    		9 hole fee		$10
    		18 hole fee		$12
    
    		Carts		$7 for 9, $14 for 18
    	
    	Greenmeadow
    
    		About the same as Natanis.
    

         I like the idea of public courses offering membership
    packages. I wish the courses here in my area would do some-
    thing like that. Our only break comes in the form of monthly
    passes.
    
    Mad Hacker

    
    	Ever inquire about memberships down the Cape? (Cape Code, Ma.)
    
    	Plush courses like Cranberry Valley run about $300.00 IF you
    	live in Harwichport. Same for the Captains... etc.
    
    	Public pays about $35.00 18 holes, PLUS cart fees.
    
    	These are two of the finest courses in Mass. Too bad more courses
    	are minicipal....
    
    		Smitty

If I were the president of Augusta, Pine Valley, or similarly 
exclusive, historic club, I would make one day a week open to public 
play--but under my rules.

Anyone could get on ("proper introductions" not required)

Only single or twosome reservations accepted (reducing the likelihood 
that four jackasses don't end up in the same foursome).

The price would be $10 -- so you don't have to be rich, either.

Members are encouraged to play with public guests, to show them the 
ropes and to share the history of the club.

------

It would still be tough to get on these courses, given the supply and 
demand, but at least it would be equally tough for everyone, 
regardless of race, religion, or social strata.

     Re: .28 - Nice idea, but the members at those clubs aren't that
    enlightened. As well, most of those clubs have (despite the existence
    of various committees) a resident despot like Hord Hardin, Ernie
    Ransome, John Arthur Brown or Chris Dunphy that just flat won't let
    something like that happen.
    
     The clubs don't have to give the place away, nor should they. If
    anyone can play Pebble Beach for $ 150 or so, then the tariff to play a
    shrine should be fairly high. That way, only someone who really wants
    to play will fork over the cash - especially if he/she has a limited
    entertainment budget (what the hell, I'll just skip "jello wrestling" at
    Pudgie's for a few weeks...).
    
     I like some kind of introduction (including a handicap card) to make
    sure that the folks are golfers and not just thrill seekers. Also,
    foursomes would be o.k., because good guys don't always travel in
    two's... You've also got to think about whether to restrict the
    clubhouse (which is half the experience at Pine Valley, for example -
    weak burgers, though...), because these places have priceless (to
    golfers at least) memorabilia. Ekwanok has an original Norman Rockwell
    that is HUGE just hanging over the fireplace in the locker room, but
    even little things are precious. I bet the pro shops would love to see
    the public - everyone would buy something. Sixteen of us were at
    Shinnecock years back on a rainy monday with no one else around, and
    Don McDougall, the pro, said he did $ 1500.00 in business.
    
     If you want to concentrate on rare places, try to get on some of the
    all male clubs. There aren't many, and the ones that exist can be sure
    that their days are numbered...
    
     Sometime when I'm in Golf remission, I'll enter a few reminiscences
    from some of these places. they're all unique, and some are (IMO)
    overrated, but they're all fun. Now if that guy I met steelhead fishing
    can only come through with a day at Wannamoisett...
    
    
    --Jack

re: .28

On a variation of your idea I've wished that some of the "exclusive" clubs, 
Cypress Point, Pine Valley, Agusta National, etc. held a lottery to raise cash 
for some charitable cause.  For a few $ you could win one of 40-60 slots in a 
select group to play one these shrines.  I think most of the readers of this
notes file would gladly sacrifice a few bucks for the opportunity.

They would raise a mint for a worthy cause, get a lot of positive press, and I 
bet a couple of their best tax lawyers could figure how it could be a great tax 
write off.

Larry

    Larry, I LOVE (!!) your idea. It's so good that not even those tight
    asses could refute it. Think about it - they do a lot of good for a
    worthy cause, they do it under conditions they control, and they only
    have to rub shoulders with regular people once a year !
    
     One more thought - for you guys that like to play shrines, have you
    ever considered joining the Francis Ouimet Caddie Scholarship Fund ?
    You have to apply, and I think it now is $ 150-200, but it gets you a
    day of golf, lunch, dinner, drinks and the chance to make contacts with
    members of other clubs. You choose from 3 clubs which change every year
    (you can only pick one). One year it was Brookline, Hyannisport and
    Pleasant Valley or Myopia Hunt (I think). They generally always have a
    good rota of courses, plus - it's tax deductible and for a good cause.
    
    --Jack

    RE: .31
    Can you give more information on this Scholarship Fund.  Sounds like a
    worthy cause and some decent bennies.

     It's called the Par Club, and I think the Mass. Golf Association,
    which has an office at Leo J. Martin golf course can tell you who to
    contact.

    I would like to know if anyone out there can give me any data on
    Nabnasset Lake Golf Club in westford mass? How much to join any waiting
    list? Do they run alot of tournaments????
    
    thanks
    charlie demers
    

    re .34
    
    Charlie,
    
    	I talked with a friend of mine who is a member at Nabnasset GC. He
    says he believes it is atleast a 2 year waiting list. They do run alot
    of tournaments, I believe every weekend.
    
    
    						-Paul
    

Anyone still considering membership to a private course in the greater 
Maynard area should consider Sterling CC. It's a beautiful layout (by 
the same guy who designed willow Bend), bent grass tee to green, no 
mandatory spending in a dining room, and a reasonable annual dues 
($1250). It's drawbacks are: it's open to the public for down-time 
play; the bond to get in is steep ($7500). Personally, I don't mind 
the public access. The cost, difficulty of the course, and the
abundant opportunities for lost balls will limit interest mostly to
serious golfers. Maybe Mr. Varley can shed some light on the
compromises of belonging to a semi-public course. The bond--or at
least its a bond until May 1, after which only half of it is 
recoverable when you resign--will be a problem for some, but the
owner's bank will finance the money, if you can't come up with the
cash. You can also pay part now and part next January. 

If you're interested, drop me a note on MR4DEC::. I'll tell you more
about it and, if you're still interested, I'll introduce you to the
right people. 

Tom 

    I'll try to shed some light on belonging to a semi-private course vs
    belonging to a private course. Our Pro put together a list of all the
    extras members of Crumpin-Fox get as opposed to the public - things
    like range membership, no time limit reserving starting times, charge
    privileges at the shop, being able to have lockers and bag storage,
    tournament programs, clinics, etc. There were quite a few more which
    escape me.
     I chose a semi-private course because I LOVE the area and the people,
    and the course happened to be semi-private. The course isn't one of my
    real favorites - just hard - but I like it quite a bit. To me, the key
    factor is, can you play it when you want to, and how are the people ?
    also, the course should be interesting, scenic, have a good Pro and be
    in very good shape. Most semi - private courses have too damn much
    public play to defray the cost of operation. Hence, if they are real
    expensive to begin with, I'd try to be sure I had plenty of times
    available to me as a member. I'd also want to know if I could get my
    bond back. $7500.00 is more than many private courses charge, but then
    again, the only requirement for membership at Sterling is "Do you have
    the cash ?" That's o.k. with me - some private clubs have tons of nice
    folks, some don't (regardless of how they screen). For example, Merion
    is very warm and pleasant; Worcester stinks.
     I never try to divide the number of rounds into the cost of
    membership, I just figure out what I can afford. BUT - to me $7500 for
    a membership in a semi-private club, along with yearly fees of over a
    grand is INSANE! This is no knock on Sterling or any members, but I
    don't think that it makes the club look like it is very solvent. If it
    folds, where is your $ 7500 ?
     Bottom line is, if the place meets your requirements, and you can
    afford it - go for it ! Just don't try to convince me that it makes as
    much sense as a private club for the same money. If there are no
    private clubs in the area to join in a reasonable time - it still
    doesn't make sense. Once again, this is purely my opinion.
    
    --Jack

    I'm a member of the White Mountain Country Club, early bird coast $450
    dollars, good course, well taken care of and getting better every year,
    members get first shot for tee time, they can call in Tuesdays and Wed.
    then it's open to anyone that calls.....located off of I293 Exit 24, 
    you take a left off the exit ramp, go under I293, continue for appx.
    1000 yards, yield left (sign on the road to WMCC) down that road appx.
    2 to 3 miles and it's on you left.....I believe early bird entry closed
    on March 1, today but it you call the Pro I'm think money speaks for 
    itself.....
    
    Roger