Conference 7.286::golf

Walta,

>    	If someone feels they use irons that allow them to pretty much
>    	swing the same from PW - 3 iron I'd like to hear your comments.
    
	I'm not going to be much help because I have 1200GE's and don't
	have to change my swing.  What changes do you have to make?
	What happens if you don't change your swing?

	Do you have the newer radius'ed soled 1200GE's or the older
	ones with the flat sole?  I feel that the 1200's are pretty close
	to the Ping's.  (Ever look at the two side by side?)

	My next set will be a forged perimeter weighted club.  (I used
	to have Wilson Staffs.)  That should offer the best of both
	worlds.  However I think it is too early to change.  In another
	year or two the selection should be better.

	Larry

     The easiest long irons to hit (in my experience) are Hogan Radials.
    Our pro concurs. Pings or Edges would work too, but don't overlook the
    Armour 845's.
    
    --Jack

    Hi Larry,
    
    	Yup, I have the radius design also...  I just got through hitting
    	a Slotline (standard lie) 3 iron at the range. I can get the ball
    	up easier with the Slotline, which may be the lie ? 
    
    	I use a flat lie ... when hitting anything under the 4 iron, I
    	feel the irons have a good vertical path into the ball, which
    	will get the ball up. But when I use the low irons I feel the
    	ball is too far from me, and therefore I seem to loose power
    	vertically. Because of this I tend to sweep the long irons,
    	they fly lower, and roll too much . Makes scoring a nightmare !
    
    	I really like the 1200GE's, and think (after hitting the standard
    	lie irons) it may be the lie, not the irons. Bummer. Now what am
    	I going to do?? 
      
    	Hmmm, seeing as I already got the OK from Eunhwa (she wants new
        irons also, so it was easy).  I think I'll get some new standard
    	lie irons ! 
    
    	Now I'm back to the original question    WHICH ONES ?
    
    	thanks Walta
    
    	So far Hogan forged irons have one vote.
    	 

    Don't overlook the Wilson Staff's, I've been playing them for 5+ years
    now, I think they are excellent, my 1 iron swings as easy as my wedge,
    and when you hit the ball correctly, they go, why do you think the
    likes of Payne Stwert, Faldo and Iwirn play them?
    
    p

    Definately.....The Tommy Armour 845's.
    You should have to accomadate your swing to the club.
    your club should accomadate your swing.
    These clubs feel like one long extension of your arms.
    
                                              Rick

Walta,

>    	I really like the 1200GE's, and think (after hitting the standard
>    	lie irons) it may be the lie, not the irons. Bummer. Now what am
>    	I going to do?? 

	Why don't you see if you can pick up a standard lie 2 iron.  They
	are available as add on clubs.  If that works maybe one of the
	club makers can recommend someone to change the lie on your other
	long irons.  It would be a shame to buy a whole new set of irons
	when 2/3 of the irons are just fine.  I like mine.  Consider this
	a vote for the 1200GE's.

	Larry

	Maybe Eunha can talk to my wife about a Yonex driver I've been
	looking at! ;-)

	This question is very difficult to answer.  There is no right 
answer, and there is no wrong answer.  That is why there are so many 
different types of clubs to choose from.  

	The issue about the different swing for long versus short irons
makes sense to me.  I don't think new clubs are the answer.  I disagree
with those pros that say there should only be one swing for long and short
irons. Those pros that do believe in the same swing also probably believe
in the same ball position at set-up.  I believe Nicklaus is one of those,
if I remember correctly what he wrote in Golf My Way.  There are other pros
that suggest moving the ball forward for long clubs, and middle to back for
shot clubs.  To effectively hit down on a ball, and to sweep a 2 iron, are
two different kinds of shots.  It is the lengh of the shaft that causes a
different swing. 

	I am not an expert.  However, I have spend a great deal of money
trying to find the 'perfect clubs'.  Of course, you don't want to have 
clubs that don't fit your body type, but I guess I've learned the hard way 
that technique is much more important than the specific equipment. I've
been playing for six years, and in that time I've gone through five sets of
irons: 

	MacGregor Tourney (used)
	PowerBuilt Citations
	Ping Eye 2
	MacGregor Muirfields
	Titleist Tour Model

	Yes, I've gone overboard.  This listed doesn't even begin to cover
the sets of woods and putters.  Some of the thought behind the purchases --
at one time I thought I wanted a complete set of clubs by the same
manufacturer.  Consequently, I bought PowerBuild Citation irons AND woods
(1, 3, 4 & 5).  My next move the following year was high tech -- Ping
(1-PW, SW & LW), TaylorMade metals (9.5, 10.5, 13.0, 15.0 21.0) and a
Nicklaus Response putter.  The search for the right clubs ultimately went
back to basics -- tour blades (playing Titleist, still have Muirfields),
persimmon woods and a bullseye putter.  Heck, these clubs are a proven
design.  To me, each has the best feel and looks I need.  If they fail,
which they do quite often, it is me and not the clubs.

Jeff

    
    I have had the same set of clubs for about 15 years (original Pings)
    and have never thought of buying another set. When I'm playing well,
    my 3 iron is as comfortable as my 7 iron. I like Pings, but I think
    it's entirely YOUR choice.
    
    A few suggestions:
    
    1. Stay away from forged clubs. Yes, they have good feel and
       traditionalists will say they're great. But the fact is they
       are no where near as forgiving as an investment cast, perimeter
       weighted club. Forged clubs are much harder to hit.
    
       Interested note on forged clubs: After Bob Tway had the great year
       in which he won the PGA and others, he switched to forged clubs
       because he wanted to get more 'feedback' on a bad swing. Haven't
       heard much from Tway in recent years.....
    
    2. Don't go over board looking for expensive gimmicks like Berilium
       or graphite irons etc. Unless cost is no object, I don't think 
       they are worth the money (double the cost in many cases). Let's
       face it, unless you have a pro swing, you won't notice the 
       subtle differences.
    
    3. ABSOLUTELY make sure you can take the clubs to a driving range
       to try them out. Don't make the mistake of hitting them into
       a net or having some other swing analysis machine determine
       what clubs hit the best. You want to see the trajectory of the
       ball when it's 150 yards off the clubface.
    
    4. Talk to a pro (hopefully one who has given you a lesson, knows your
       swing) about shafts:
    
       Flex: Some companies (like Ping) only make stiff shafts, this may 
             not be right for you.
    
       Lie:  Standard, flat, upright. Not all companies allow you to specify
             this when you buy/order.
    
       Length: For example, I play 1-inch-longer shafts because I'm tall
               with relatively short arms.
    
    If the pro/salesman doesn't talk about any of these things, I'd be
    leery. Don't buy what someone else thinks is a good club just because
    they like them. Maybe they can hit them and you can't. 
    
    Bottom line: HIT THEM BEFORE YOU BUY THEM. And hit the clubs you have
                 NOW just before you hit the clubs you're considering. That
                 way you won't get misled by the fact that you may be
                 swinging better or worse that paticular day.
                                                                        

    
    
    Hi,
    
    	Well... not being one to waste much time. I just bought the
    	Hogan Edge's ;) !!  I hit a large bucket and really liked
    	the feel, I could hit all the irons with more height...
    	the distance was the same as before (with 1200GE's). The 
    	big difference is they are standard lie, I've been playing
    	flat lie for 3 years ! The salesman at Golf Discount sold
    	me the wrong lie,  probably just to get rid of them ...
    	nice guy ?
    
    	Anyway, I hope this is my last set... 
    
    	Boy is it nice out.
    
    	Walta

    Hi,
       Well I bought a set of Tommy Armour 845's about a month ago and love
    em.  I've been hitting my irons futher and higher than ever before.
    
    What ever you decide make sure that you can take them out and try them
    before you buy them.  I got mine at Wayland CC.  They let me borrow a 
    set for a few days.  I went to both a driving range and played 18
    holes with them.   
    
    Let us know what you finally decide on.
    
    							Rich

    
      Does anyone have any information on the Calloway irons?  Or maybe
    is there a note soley on them?  I had a chance to swing em' the
    other day and they really felt good.  You could just feel the 
    extra weight driving through at impact.  I'm currently playing
    Pings and really like em'.  The Calloway's are about the same price
    as a new set of Pings from what I've seen.  The one shop said they
    out of stock on the Calloways and are "back ordered through November".
      Any thoughts, comments?
    
     BP 
    
    

    
    Hi,
    
    	Boy did I go through a rough weekend ! Here I just bought new
    	Hogan Edge irons, and I couldn't hit the ball well... I felt
    	the hogans were too long and too heavy. I kept loosing the
    	club at the top, and was very late bringing the clubhead
    	down... my body was way ahead. After a couple days of working
    	on developing a swing with the Hogans , my wrists were very
    	sore/tired ... I played the front nine at Stow North -1 after 5,
    	then couldn't hold the club. Went to +2 after 9, and +10 after
    	18.
    
    	I was convinced the clubs were too long, and too heavy... so 
    	I went to a friends workshop and cut them down 1/2 " . I 
    	played nine yesterday and was in heaven ;) , and hit a large
    	bucket at lunch going from SW  through to Driver with the
    	same swing ! I have NEVER done that before. I have to admit
    	I was really bummin' thinking I spent the money on clubs that
    	ruined my game ...  by cutting them down the swingweight went
    	from D2-D3 to D0 .  
    
    	Just in time for the Challenge Cup ! :)
    
    	Walta
    

       < more BAD golfers play with PING's than any other clubs! >
    
.8 gave some excellent advice.

I hit the World Class System2 Irons, myself.  3 iron thru the wedge will run
$320.  

Ping is highly over-rated.  Hell, they have to pay for all those advertisements
in Golf Digest and such!

I won't play with Japanese clubs either, like Hogan, Wilson, MacGregor, etc.!

-dwight

    re: .12
    
    	As I recall you were using Wilson clubs...you bought the Hogan
    clubs...but did you check the spec's??? I went through this about
    6 years ago and got information from the manufactures on the clubs
    I was playing(wilsons) and the clubs I was interested in. I put 
    together a chart and to my suprise the WILSONS were 1/2 inch shorter
    than every other manufacture. I have since found out that there
    are two "STANDARDS" for club makers the "old standard" which WILSON
    uses and the "new standard" wich other club makers use...
    
    	The difference...???
    
    		example: old standard 5 iron
    	
    				length = x (some number not sure exact
    specs)
    				loft = y
    
    			new standard 5 iron
    
    				length = x + 1/2 inch
    				loft = y - 1 or 2 degrees
    
    anyway this is why you should have given yourself more time with
    the new sticks to adjust...anytime you go to new sticks reguardless
    of how close or near the specs are to your old set I feel that it
    takes approximatly 3-6 months for the adjustment. If your impatient
    and never give the new ones a chance you'll never be satisfied....
    
    

    
    FYI,
    
    The OLD standard length would have a 3 iron at 38", 4 iron at 37�",
    5 iron at 37", etc... The modern standard is � inch longer than the
    old standard. All manufacturers do not conform to either of these,
    the may vary a �" or so from either of these standards...
    
    Regards
    Gene

    
    
    	Reply .14
    
    	I bought the new irons to better my game... my weakness was my
    	long irons. I definitely didn't want to buy new clubs, with the
    	plan to "learn" a new swing over the next 3-6 months. I wanted
    	to continue with my current swing, and have the new irons 
    	strengthen my long iron play. If it's possible to hit a PW -
    	to a 5 iron with the same swing, it should work for the 4 to 1
    	iron also... the Wilsons were a flat lie, and it seems that was
    	the only reason I couldn't hit the long irons. I think by
    	adjusting the lie to a standard lie, I would have hit the
    	Wilsons also...
    
    	But then I wouldn't have bought new irons ;( . 
    
    
    	Walta

    My "golfer's calendar" has the following as "Hogan's Law":
    
    "The expensive new clubs you bought don't play as well as your
    partner's old rusty ones." I try to keep that in mind every time
    my swing goes "south," and I contemplate trading in on a new set.
    
    	Frank

    Right Frank.  I get a kick out of all the guys I run in to on the
    course and purchased "Pings" and they blow smoke about their equipment
    but they play no better than the average hacker.  Same with graphite
    drivers.

    It's like a guy at my pro shop said, "Most people are just average
    hackers.  And since they can't play well, many of them want to *look*
    like they can, so they buy highly advertised, brand named equipment."

    -dwight

    Re -1: Good clubs will not compensate for a bad swing; a good swing
    can make up, in part, for bad clubs. I bought new irons in June of 87,
    because I (literally) didn't trust my other set (which were only a
    year old then): the head flew off the 4-iron on a tee shot, for no
    apparent reason, so I decided it was time for a new set. I bought
    MacGregor CG1800's, and have discovered that on the rare occasions when
    I swing properly, the clubs will perform as advertised, but that the
    other 90% of the time, no amount of perimeter weighting, kickshaft, etc
    can overcome my swing deficiencies, and I get the result I deserve.
    It's a thought that has probably saved me a lot of bread, since it's
    kept me from springing for Pings, Edges, or whatever.
    
    I confess to having bought a graphite driver, and for a while, I
    thought I'd died and gone to heaven. I've come back to earth since
    then, and am considering going back to the old metal-shafted, wooden
    headed driver. At least I won't feel so bad when I hit a lousy drive
    with an old-fashioned club! No doubt about it: The swing's the thing.
    
    		Frank
    

Frank,  I've heard several guys at the pro shop say that they had tried the
graphite dirvers too, only to go back to the metal-shafted clubs.  Interesting. 
I think that often people get a new club, and play a few shots strokes
better... for a bit... then fall back into their old patterns.  The key here is
confidence.  When ya expect to play good, you often will.
    
I may or may not try a graphite driver next year.  Just so I can become another
one who did and went back to his gold-plus-steel shaft!  
    
    :^)  -dwight

    HI Golfers,
    Stopped in at N.E. golf supply in marlboro yesterday and talked
    to the salesman about the best irons to buy it was no surprise 
    that he had recommended the Tommy Armour 845's.He told me that
    he cannot hold these irons long enough to keep them in stock,as 
    soon as they come in their gone.He also added that these irons
    are blowing the Ping irons away in sales and customer satisfaction.
    Oh,got a real hot deal on the Tommy Armour Metal Woods BTW;20%off
     
                                             Rick

    Hi all of you 845 customers.  I would like to ask a very specific
    question.  I am looking forward to buying the 845's soon but I need
    some recommendations on what lie should I require.  I am 6 feet tall,
    about 215 lbs.  I tend to slice or push the ball to the right.  Should
    I get a standard lie or flat lie?????????
    
    Greg
    

    
    RE: .22
    
    Greg,
    
    The lie you need can not be determined simply by your height and
    weight. To determine the correct lie for you, you need to do the
    following. Hit some balls off of a sheet of plywood, first put
    some masking tape on the sole of your iron (5 iron would be good).
    When you hit the balls swing as you normallyt would do. The tape
    on the sole of the club will get scuffed. If the scuffing is in the
    center of the club then the lie is correct, the scuffing is towards
    the toe then you need an upright lie - flat lie if the scuffing is
    towards the heel...
    
    Regards
    Gene

    By far the easiet long irons that I have hit are the Maxfli Austrailian
    blades.  The two iron looks so clean and small that you feel as if it
    is a mere extension of your arm.
    
    
    If you are looking for a good sand wedge, look at the R90 from Wilson. 
    It is excellent looking and great out of the fairway for the finness
    shots.
    
    Gunga la Gunga

    re:0 
    Another good iron I would like to suggest is the Titleist DTR. Nice
    feeling club, ranks up with the best of them.
    
    Between all the club manufactures they certainly do make some beautiful
    clubs nowadays.
    
    Good Luck

    This is a great note, and don't get me wrong when I say this, but so
    far it's sort of a club popularity contest. What I mean by this is I
    think everyone wants to put in a word for the clubs they bought. It's
    perfectly natural when you make a large or semi-large investment to
    want to convince other people that it was a good one. It helps you
    convince yourself, after all... Mind you, I have no immunity to that
    myself, except that I've come to realize the clubs I bought pretty much
    stink, so I'm not too eager to brag about my brilliant choice-making.
    :-)
    
    Which brings me to my suggestion for where we might want to go with
    this note. So far, the reasons for selecting a club have been something
    like "I used to hit more OBs than Gerald Ford, but now that I bought my
    set of Super-SX 12001 XLT-Xs I break course records and am considering
    which PGA tournaments to enter in". That's all well and good, but there
    has to be more to buying a golf club than "I whacked a ball, and it
    pretty much went where I wanted it to".
    
    In irons there's:
    
    	Cambered and straight soles
    	Offset hossels
    	Cavity backed and blade designs
    	Graphite, metal, etc. shafts
    
    I'm looking at getting a set of irons next year. The one thing that's
    managed to penetrate my hard head is that I should probably get clubs
    that have the correct length, loft and lie for my build. This means
    getting measured and all that. But then what?
    
    Fr'instance, someone explained to me that a cambered sole makes it a
    little easier coming through the shot and taking a divot like you're
    supposed to, because less club area contacts the ground initially. They
    also remarked that cambered soles have a smaller sweet spot, so they're
    less forgiving of toe/heel shots.
    
    What I'm getting at is I'd like to see people discuss in a little more
    detail what it is about certain clubs, or styles of clubs, that makes
    them think they hit better with them...
    
    Thanks,
    Brian
    (who's looking at Pings, but is definitely impressionable)

    -1

    The best thing is to visit pro shops and ask questions of the folks
    that make them.  Also pick up the literature they have.  For my SYSTEM2
    irons, I have a booklet which goes into heavy detail about how they're
    made and what they'll do.  It's too much to list here and I doubt that
    most would be able to follow it all any way.  Getting tailored is fine.
    As for the rest, it won't make a whole lot of difference.  If fact, for
    most golfers, playing with clubs that are tailored won't matter over
    standard won't matter.  Your swing will matter.  But in a nut-shell,
    what really makes the club is the shaft, as I've been taught by the
    fellows in the pro shop.  But among the popular shafts, you won't find
    much REAL difference either.  I hit a GOLD-PLUS shaft which is about as
    light as graphite.... about.  And I ponder more experiencing with
    graphite next year.  But more guys I know that went to them are going
    back to the GOLD-PLUS's that they were hitting before.

    Metal woods are the "in" thing right now.  My club pro predicted that
    in about 3 years that "wood woods" would come back in and people would
    be switching from metal ones.  Yea, we're told that metal gives us more
    control, but is it making a difference?  And it can take some time
    getting used to the "ping" sound that they make as well as the fact
    that they are ugly compared to real woods.  Perhaps metal-woods is a
    fad after all?!?

    Cavity backed irons are designed to give a larger sweet-spot.  Most all
    clubs advertise this and offer explanation as to why/how.  A lot is a
    matter of trust.  That's why I think it's best to talk to the folks
    that make'em.  When I went CD player shopping, I talked to several of
    the folks that repair them before I made my purchase.

    I believe that there are many great clubs available today, including
    PINGS.  I believe that PINGS are good clubs, but not *super* clubs. 
    They just have more advertising.  Their adds show to send in your glove
    size and measure your reach to determine what *color* shaft you'll get,
    but still, the makers of PING aren't going to watch your swing and
    clock you, which I think is important too.  How stiff a shaft do you
    need?

    Summary:

    Don't expect to find out in a notes conference which irons you need to
    buy.  You'll get some ideas of what questions to ask but that's about
    all.  It's like going into the AUDIO conference and asking what pair of
    speakers you need for your receiver!  The more you read, the more
    confused you may become.  They'll tell you to go and *hear* them for
    yourself as only YOU know what sounds good to you!  Perhaps the best
    advice here is to go see your club pro, talk to him and get fitted by
    people that know your swing.  You *swing* the clubs and decide what
    feels good for you.

    Ain't shopping fun!!!

    			-dwight

    Re:.0
    Have you looked into Armour E.Q.L.'s ?  All irons supposedly have same
    shaft length so that you can make same swing for all your iron shots.
    This may help golfers with long-iron phobia.
    
    BTW I don't know how good this concept is...I have been using 845's
    since the beginning of the year and very satisfied with them.(but I
    could use little more comfort-zone with my long irons!!)

    g'day,
    
    I sure you can tell from the accent that I'm from Australia.. and on a
    recent visit to NE, I came across an offer from GolfDay in Nashua of
    $500 for graphite shaft bertha driver, steel shaft 3 wood and
    steel shaft 5 wood .. should have taken up the offer.. 
    
    i was wondering if there are any decent mail-order places, that I can
    get bertha irons and 3/5 woods from in the USA.. who would be able to
    deliver to Australia??  do you know of any?? 
    
    I've check-out the calloway home page on the web, but they don't sell
    via the Internet.. as yet.. 
    
    thanks for your help,
    
    	regards,
    
    	Paul.