Conference 7.286::golf

    I don't agree. Yes The best players are coming from out of the states
    but we have the depth. Olazabla had a tremendoes tournament but
    can he sustain this. I doubt it not in this golf world today where
    there really is no dominant player. Forget freddy Couples( a good
    player) Payne stewart is the us man RIGHT NOW. But the future holds
    promising players like Robert Gamez Who may be the player of the
    nineties To challenge olazbal and Faldo and woosnam.Also don't overlook
    Phil Mickelson this kid may become the best lefty golfer ever he
    has all the tools.Also Chris Patton he lost out in the early rounds
    of the US ametuer but remember he did win it last year and was
    respectable in the majors a player to remember.So I don't throw
    US golf into the garbage heap yet besides we seem to develop golfers
    better than most country with the possible exeption of england.
    In the other countries it is still a rich man's game for now.
    
    JMHO
    
    Ted

    I think Ted's right.  With so many great players out there, it's hard
    for anyone to dominate the game anymore like say a Nicklaus did.  Take
    Wayne Levi.  He won, what 3 times in 4 or 5 weeks??  Is he a (THE) dominant
    player?  I think not. Jose Maria OhIlostmyball is another fine player who 
    will win many more times.  But he has to contend with the likes of Faldo, 
    Norman, Gamez, Couples, Calcavechia (sp), Stewart, McKinnon (ha ha, maybe 
    on the Senior tour 10 or 15 years from now), and on and on and on.  And I 
    don't think it matters which side of the pond you grew up on or play on, 
    there are just SO many good players now that no one will step forward and
    dominate for many years.
         
    JMO
    
    Len

    
    I have to disagree with .1 and .2 and agree with the base note. We
    (USA) are dead in the water. Look at the Majors, look at the Ryder Cup.
    We are developing a style of play the is unique in the world. Hit 'em
    high and land 'em soft. The game was originally designed to have many
    different options on each hole. We are giving these new courses one,
    maybe two options. When it comes to being creative on the course, the
    Americans (as a whole) don't have a clue. What's a bump and run??
    What's a knock-down?? These are shots that are hardly ever used over
    here.
    The commentators this week made a big deal out of this "embarrasment"
    and rightfully so. The non-Americans are a smaller group, granted, but
    they have all the tools to win. Domination on the US tour?? Maybe not.
    Head to head against the Americans?? We don't stand a chance!! These
    guys overseas are tasting victory alot more than our average tour
    player, and as they said this weekend, "they like it", and they know
    what it takes to win.
        What will it take to balance the scale??? Who knows. I think maybe
    playing alot more courses like Shinnicock would help. Maybe pass up the
    big buck in America and go play overseas for a while. Grind it out on a
    "cow pasture". GET RID OF STADIUM COURSES!!!!!
    
    JMHO
    
    Joe

    tis true, the US has not developed any dominating golfers recently.
    It does seem as if we play without a lot of imagination and creativity.
    Blast it off the tee, aim at the stick, get up and down if you miss!
    
    J-M Olazabal's performance was a truly impressive first US win!
    Keep in mind he didn't just break the tournament record of -13,
    he wiped it out (-18)! And he is just in his mid-twenties! Imagine
    what he'll be like when he reached Payne Stewart's age ... Let's
    hope he doesn't burn out.
    
    Eric

    
    
    Well, I did not see this weekends play. But I have watched Olazabal for
    some time now and have been waiting for him to explode into the winners
    circle. He had a great tournament.
    
    But I do not feel that the european players are superior, nor do I feel
    that they are inferior.  While the PGA has tended towards the stadium
    style golf courses and the inherent target golf, the players still
    must make the shots. And as we all know, golf is a day to day game.
    I don't see the run away tournament as an every week occurance either.
    
    It is by far better to be lucky then good.
    
    Dave

         Well, I watched both days over the weekend and I didn't
    see Jose using some strange techniques to destroy the course !
    He played the same game that the Americans use. He hit his
    drives straight down the middle, Flew his irons high and soft
    to every green, and made about every putt he tried !! The ones
    that missed were only by inches. He could have shot 25 under !!
    He beat our players at their own game. I don't ever remember
    seeing such a display of accuracy and distance control. Maybe
    the last time was when Johhny Miller destroyed the field at the
    Desert Classic back in the early seventies. I think he was something
    like -24 or -25.
    
    Mad Hacker

    .6 is correct, he beat the americans at their own style of play...
    
    I think the difference is like the base note said...he's hungry...
    
    American professional sports, since the introduction of player
    agents, has taken a down turn because there is no need for a
    baseball/basketball/football/golf/etc. player in the U.S. system
    of pro sports to improve and get better than the next guy. Hey
    like couples says I make a good living at what I do, to me
    translates to "why work my butt off to become the best at what
    I do, I'm gonna make good money without all that extra hard work..."
    
    GO BACK TO THE SYSTEM WHERE YOUR PAID FOR HOW YOU PERFORM ....THEN
    THE BEST PLAYERS WILL AGAIN RISE TO THE TOP AND BE HUNGRY TO GET
    BETTER AND WIN MORE.....
    
    A baseball player years ago worked hard as they could all year to
    get to the world series because that meant extra money in their pockets
    and they NEEDED it...today they are paid so well any money made in
    playoffs is nothing more than pocket change...WHERE's THE INCENTIVE..??
    
    

    I don't think the American's are losing due to motivation due to too
    much money and the like but rather it is a temporary phenomena and it
    will play itself out and return to normal.

    I watched the tournament on Screen Sport starting slightly after 22:00
    our time (in Geneva). We get the picture feed from the USA but there
    are a couple of Brits sitting someplace doing the commentary and
    believe me they are convienced that the US players are second rate at
    best. Sometimes I get so angry I have to turn the sound off and just
    watch the picture. Anyway, enough of that. 
    
    I have been fortunate enough in the past to play in several pro-ams in
    the states. I have also been fortunate enough to play a number of the
    courses over here where tournaments are held, sometimes slightly
    before, sometimes after. There is just no comparison between a US
    course set up for a PGA event and the courses in Europe. The players
    have to develop the ability to "manfacture" shots because they can get
    into the darnest messes even when they hit a "good shot". Last year I
    spent some time talking to a young American pro playing over here and
    asked him why. He responded that he wanted to improve his shot making
    before going on the US tour. 
    
    Have you ever seen the "Belfrey" where we TIED the Ryder Cup (not lost
    it as the Europeans would have us believe). It reminds me of Stow about
    12/15 years ago when they sometimes forgot to do the maintenance on the
    course. Piece of crap, which even the announcers state from time to
    time. And yes, the European players are "hungry" when they play in the
    USA. After all, in the USA they don't get appearance money that is
    often as much or more than the first prize money in a tournament over
    here. There they have to actually score to get paid. 
    
    Sorry, I will now shut up. It's just that my "flame" got turned on by
    all this crap of the Europeans being better. Mabey three or four of
    them are as good today but then you don't see to much of them on the US
    PGA tour. If they were that good why don't they just move to the USA
    for a couple of years collect their 10 million or so and return. The
    answer is pretty simple, they can't. 
    
    Regards, Haskell.

    It's in danger of getting a bit partisan in here again isn't it!
    
    All I can say is that there are great players all over the world. As
    someone else said, which side of the pond is irrelevant. Olazabal had a
    great tournament, and he's been a great player in Europe now for 3-4
    years, so victory was no great surprise to us.
    
    The margin of victory was outstanding, but I wouldn't use it to
    generalise on the abilities of one tour against others. 
    
    I don't think any tour is 'second rate' - fortunately that means we can
    all watch top players around the world now, rather than having to read
    about it in the newspapers, and the top golfers can play all around the
    world instead of having to go to the US to 'make it'. 
    
    It seems that many european noters feel that the US hasn't come to
    terms with not being the b all end all of professional golf anymore
    and even that they don't even count any more. These people IMO are
    being as short sighted as the people they are trying to criticise! By
    my reckoning, the last 8 majors are split 50-50 - that demonstrates
    world equality to me, not any second rate tours. There are definately
    relative merits to different styles of courses (and I'd rather not have
    stadium stuff personally), but second rate?
            
    Paul

RE -.1
	Well said.  I congratulate Olazabel for his great play in last weeks 
tourny, and it was also, no surprise to me, for him to win, but the margin he 
won by was a big surprise!!!  He played extremely well.  His approach shots 
were nothing short of incredible, and he putted extremely well too.  But to 
say that his performance prooves that non-US tour players are much better and 
more dominant than US tour players, is rediculous.  There are many great 
golfers, throughout the world: Norman, Olazabel, Woosnam, Faldo, Stewart.  How 
many nations were represented their?  Let's see, Australia, Spain, Scotland, 
England and USA.  Why must we always lump them all against USA?  Is that 
really a fair judgement?  They are all great golfers and we should appreciate 
their talents without judging any of them by their nationality.

Beak

    re: .11
    
    I couldn't agree more.  Olazabal has been prime to win a US tournament
    for some time and is going to be a force to contend with, but so will
    many others. What I have a problem with is how the Brits keep talking
    about the "European" superiority as if they were one great big happy
    family.  The British have never regarded the rest of Europe as being on
    the same level as themselves in anything. Just look at the "nice"
    things they have to say about that tunnel being built to France.  Most
    of the British interviewed for a special recently wanted nothing to do
    with it because they did not want to be "connected" to the continent
    and all kinds of undesireables would be able to easily gain entry.
    
    I find it very interesting that they embrace a Spaniard so warmly when
    it comes to golf.
    
    JMHO
    
    Hal

    re. -11 & -12
         Isn't it amazing that after any win by a non-American all
    this stuff starts up !! There are many tourneys every year here
    where the foriegn players never show up on the leader board but
    you don't here us cackling about their failure to produce ! Golf
    is a funny game and anything can happen any week. I agree that 
    there are a lot of good players around the globe now and just
    wish that we could get away from this "our guys are better than-
    your guys crap !!" Is everyone jealous of us or something ???
    
    MAD HACKER 

    I agree with what Paul said in .10 in that it's no great surprise to
    see 'Ole' winning in the U.S. He's developed into a world class golfer
    who will surely win a major or two in his time. 
    
    I also agree that one of two of 'our' Euro-noters are a little
    short-sighted when it comes to assessing the game on both sides of the
    Atlantic. Personally, I think it's just great for the game that the
    game has really opened up to be one where a player from any continent
    can win. 
    
    However, I do feel that it's equally wrong to 'tar everyone with the
    same brush'. Not all of us slam the US players when a European wins.
    It's bit like soccer hooligans giving the game a bad name, yet it's
    only the tiny minority who are actually involved. Then before you know
    it everyone's cast in the same mould.
    
    There's also an issue about Europeans being able to play in the US.
    There's a minimum number of tournaments which must be played I believe
    to gain entry. The European Ryder Cup players are not all invited to
    play in the majors....seems a bit strange to me!
    
    MH.... of course I'm jealous...all I can do is write about the game. I
    wish I could play like those suckers, no matter where they're from.
    
    
    
    Phil.
    

	I always thought that stroke play tournaments were every man/woman
	for themselves!  How many players have their country's flag on
	their bag?  It's too early for these type arguements in New England
	we still have at least 6 weeks of GOOD golfing weather left.
	This stuff should be left for the cold, dark winter months when
	we can't get out to play.  (Or was this discussion started by
	those frozen soles south of the equator?)

	Larry

    Re. -14
        Phil,
       I agree that the PGA has restrictive rules that prevent many
    of the European players from competing in the US. About allowing
    the Ryder cup team to play in our majors, the only major that I
    know of that gave the US ryder cup team a berth was the Masters.
    Last month, Hord Hardin decided that the US ryder cup team would
    no longer be invited to play as there weren't enough slots to also
    include the European team. I think we need a World Tour with
    enough money to lure all the great players and maybe played at
    only one course in each participating country. That way we could
    see how everyone fares on all types of courses. As to the hooligan
    mentalities, Yank-bashing is a favorite pastime just about anywhere
    you go in the world. I spent 10 years traveling this globe so maybe
    I am a little sensitive about being bashed.
    
    Mad Hacker

    
    
    Timeout;
    
    
    
    
    This isn't fair...  Jose' Maria shoots 61,67,67,67 winning the
    	world series of golf by 12 strokes, never gave up the lead
    	start to finish, gets his own topic in the notesfile, and
    	we talk about USA vs Europe ! This IS a golf notesfile...
    
    	So, was that one of THE most awesome displays of golf or what?
    	He broke the 18,36,54,72 hole records in one tourny !! Or
    	did he miss one ? I think they said three ?? Maybe it was
    	four...   anyway , he made the game seem sooooo easy. Like
    	when you watch any great athlete, they make their sport
    	look simple. I only wish we could see him play more, too
    	bad he won't join the US tour ;( .
    
    	Walta

    "One win does not a great golfer make"
    
    This is a qoute from the many so called champions who win for the first
    time anywhere. Just ask Kenny Knox, Robert Wrenn (who won by some
    outragious amount of strokes at the Buick and hasn't figured of late)
    Jay Don Blake, etc. This is not to say that Ollie falls in this
    catagory. He is a fine player and will win his share. He may prove to
    be a dominant player. I hope he does. It's just good for the game and
    golf fans everywhere. It's just a shame we the American Public may not
    get to see the greats play due to Deane Bemons short-sightedness. I
    have harped on this before and it seems to resurface every time one of
    the great Europeans wins. Faldo, Ollie, Woosie, may not come to the
    Bank of Boston, or the Colonial. Unless we get to a major, we are being
    cheated as fans.
    
    The problem I think the tour has today and the American players
    attitude is due to the all exempt tour. When it was a requirement to
    qualify on Monday (for most players) it bred the "will to win" not just
    make the cut and get a check. Players worked harder for the rewards
    available. The prize money has grown steadily over the years. It's that
    the means to get some of that prize money has been easier on the
    American Tour since the all exempt status of players. The only example
    of what I'm talking about today comes at the end of the year when Billy
    Joe Bob Buttscratch is on the bubble of the top 125 money winners and
    needs a check to remain exempt for the next year.
    
    It's ironic how the Americans started slipping about the time Bemon
    changed the tour.
    
    
    Enough editorializing for one day
    Ken  

>	This stuff should be left for the cold, dark winter months when
>	we can't get out to play.  (Or was this discussion started by
>	those frozen soles south of the equator?)

>	Larry

Sorry Larry, but we don't break for winter in Australia (or New Zealand). We're
currently enjoying the best golfing weather and conditions all year, 65F - 75F
temperatures, lot's of run on the fairways, and greens that you can only stop
a balata ball on. It's a whole heap better than our horrendously wet summer
this year where I got wet/muddy feet almost every weekend when the courses 
weren't closed.

On the Europe/USA subject. Everyone likes to support the local team, and when
Europe gets grouped together for the Ryder Cup, then British and Spanish etc
golfers are going to support anyone from Europe. Add to that the fact that
you play the "European" Tour in Britain, Ireland, Spain, Germany etc, then
it's understandable that the Poms are going to support anyone from Europe. Even
though I'm a New Zealander I'll support Australian sport (I live in Australia)
as long as they're not playing New Zealand. Then I'm a New Zealand supporter
(Go Bob Charles and Frank Nobilo!). Americans support their tour and it's
players, Europeans support their players. 

The point I want to make is that if you accept that where you come from and
where you live affects who you're likely to support, and if everyone stops
the "you started it first" bit, then we can all get back to some good natured
repartee, and enjoy the golf!

Lindsay

     Re: .19 - good comment. Ever play Royal Melbourne, The Australian or
    New South Wales ? Someday I gotta get "Down Under" because I'm a trout
    fisherman too.
    
    --Jack