Conference 7.286::golf

    I would rank the tournaments as follows:-
    
    1) The Open Championship (this is its actual name)
    2) The U.S. Open
    3) The Masters
    4) The U.S.P.G.A. c'ship.
    
    The Open ( British Open ) is number 1 because it contains the strongest
    field in any of the c'ships. It, because of the International field,
    is more of a World C'ship than the US Open which restricts the
    opportunity for foreign tour players participation through a rigid
    exemption scheme. The British Open grants a multitude of exemptions
    to US Tour players usually meaning that around 30-40 of the best
    Americans start the 1st day.
    The US Open ranks above the Masters because there is more tradition
    in the tournament and it is more difficult to win than the Masters
    which has a very restricted field ( 90 or so versus 160 ). Granted,
    the Masters is usually better to watch than either of the major
    Opens.
    
    The PGA must rank lowest because of tradition reasons, and the quality
    of the champions over the years.

    martin o'

    
    
    
       It's got to be the British Open in number one spot followed by
    any of the others. Why, because it's got more tradition than any
    of the others. Ask most pro's world-wide what Major they'd like
    to win and I bet the majority would opt for THE OPEN. Personally
    my two favourites are the British then the Master's. They are the
    only two that I would stay up and watch or record on video.
    
    
               Danny

    	1. U.S. Open
    	2. British Open
    	3. Masters
    	4. PGA/TPC (tie)

    
    Beak

                    <<< USER$1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GOLF.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< The Good Game >-
================================================================================
Note 521.70                   General B/S - players                     70 of 70
MSEE::KELLEY "Golfaholic - Clubmaker"               108 lines  21-MAR-1990 09:31
                   -< Ranking of the MAJORS by the PROS... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	There is an article in this months Golf Digest where 40 pros
    	were surveyed to see which of the 4 majors ranked highest in 
    	prestige and importance (there were three write-in votes for
    	the Players Championship also)...
    
    	Here are the results of the survey.
    
    			first		second		third	 fourth
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Azinger		MASTERS		US OPEN			 PGA
    					BRIT. OPEN
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Finch		BRIT. OPEN	MASTERS		US OPEN	 PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Ballesteros	BRIT. OPEN	MASTERS		US OPEN	 PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	BECK		US OPEN				MASTERS	 PGA
    			BRIT. OPEN
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Calcavecchia	US OPEN		BRIT. OPEN	MASTERS	 PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Crenshaw	MASTERS		US OPEN			 PGA
    					BRIT. OPEN
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Faldo		BRIT. OPEN	MASTERS		US OPEN	 PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Floyd		US OPEN		BRIT. OPEN
    					MASTERS
    					PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Frost		BRIT. OPEN	MASTERS		US OPEN	 PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Graham		US OPEN				MASTERS	 PGA
    			BRIT. OPEN
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	K. Green	US OPEN		MASTERS		BRIT. OPEN PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Hoch		US OPEN				MASTERS
    			BRIT. OPEN			PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Hogan		ALL EQUAL
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Jacklin		BRIT. OPEN	US OPEN		MASTERS  PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Jacobsen	BRIT. OPEN	US OPEN		MASTERS  PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Kite		MASTERS		US OPEN		BRIT. OPEN PLAYERS
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Langer		BRIT. OPEN				 PGA
    			US OPEN
    			MASTERS
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Lyle		BRIT. OPEN			US OPEN
    			MASTERS				PGA
    							PLAYERS
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	J. Miller	BRIT. OPEN	US OPEN		MASTERS	 PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Mize		MASTERS		US OPEN		BRIT. OPEN PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	B. Nelson	US OPEN		MASTERS		BRIT. OPEN PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	L. Nelson	US OPEN		MASTERS		BRIT. OPEN PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Nicklaus	US OPEN		BRIT. OPEN	PGA	 MASTERS
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Norman		ALL EQUAL
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Olazabol	BRIT OPEN	US OPEN			 PGA
    					MASTERS
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Palmer		US OPEN				MASTERS	 PGA
    			BRIT. OPEN
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Player		ALL EQUAL
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Sarazen		US OPEN		BRIT. OPEN	MASTERS	 PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	S. Simpson	US OPEN		MASTERS		BRIT. OPEN PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Sluman		ALL EQUAL
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Snead		US OPEN		PGA		MASTERS	BRIT OPEN
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Stadler		MASTERS		BRIT. OPEN	US OPEN
    							PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	P. Stewart	BRIT. OPEN	US OPEN		MASTERS	 PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Strange		US OPEN		BRIT. OPEN	MASTERS	 PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Trevino		US OPEN		BRIT. OPEN	PGA	PLAYERS
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Tway		MASTERS		US OPEN		BRIT. OPEN
    							PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	L. Wadkins	US OPEN		BRIT. OPEN
    					MASTERS	
    					PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	T. Watson	ALL EQUAL
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Woosnam		BRIT. OPEN	US OPEN		MASTERS	 PGA
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Zoeller		US OPEN				MASTERS  PGA
    			BRIT. OPEN
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    British Open - US Open - Masters - PGA

    1.  TPC (love that exemption)
    2.  U.S. Open
    3.  Masters
    
    Rick

   
    
    1.TPC
    2.British Open
    3.Masters
    4.U.S Open
    
    Ted

    Boy, this is a tough one!  I can really understand why so many of the
    pros would choose the British Open. The tradition, the venues (all
    interesting, all wonderful) the field, etc,. But I have to say the
    masters. Augusta National is the most beautiful spot on earth when the
    azaleas and dogwoods are in bloom. This tournament is the official
    return of spring for me. I love it. Then the Brit, then the U.S. Open
    and then the PGA. I think the PGA lost a little something when it
    dropped the match play format.

    My list goes:
    
    1. The Open Championship
    2. The Masters
    3. U.S. Open
    4. P.G.A. Championship
    5. The weekly fourball.
    
    
    Pity I only qualify for one of these... I wonder!!
    
    Phil. 
    

    
    	I rank them all equal. I did this because of a scientific test
    I performed. I had a friend watch my feet, and then I imagined
    winning each event, against the incredible talent each tourny
    draws. I found I jumped the exact height for all tournaments...;) .
    
    	Walta

    
    
    
    	1. Masters
    	2. British
    	3. Rest equal
    
    	But then again, if Norman's playing i'll watch it no matter
    what tournament it is. Major or not.
               
    John-

    
    
    1. U.S. Open
    
    2. British Open
    
    3. Masters
    
    4. PGA (way less important than the others)
    
    5. TPC (way less important than the PGA)
    
    
    

    re -1
    
    Remember that 10 year exception at the TPC
    
    Ted

    
    	1. Masters
    	2. British Open
    	3. U.S. Open
    	4. T.P.C.
    	5. PGA
    	6. The Canadian Open 
    
    That last one is the only tourney of this caliber that stops where the
    water runs a little cleaner, the air's a little fresher and where they 
    serve real beer. ;^}
    
    great white north golf fanatic

I'm having a hard time choosing my #1. It's a tie between the US Open & the 
with a slight edge to the Open (probably due to the variety of coourses).
So here goes:

	1a. US Open
	 b. The Masters
	2.  British Open - love the courses, but inconsistent conditioning & 
				poor weather can play too big a factor
	3.  PGA Championship

I can't believe that so okmany people consider the TPC a major.  I believe that
it is a very solid tournament in that second tier including other high caliber
tourneys including Memorial, Western Open, Haritage Classic and a couple others.
The 10 year exemption is notable, but I'm sorry you can't buy your way into
being a major.  You have to EARN IT!  

But then again I'm biased.  I think the TPC course reflects a lot about what
it wrong with golf course architecture today.  Unfortunately the green at
17 has spawn so many other horrid look a likes.

Larry	

    1. The Open
    2. The Masters
    3. US Open
    4. USPGA
    
    #1 precisely for the reasons someone else didn't like it - variable
    weather means you could end up playing 4 entirely different rounds of
    golf, making it a real test of a champion. Also the best international
    field of any of them.
    
    #2 even though the entry qualifications are hopelessly biased, it marks
    the start of the season and a good atmosphere to it.
    
    #4 is beginning to fall adrift of the rest.
    
    TPC doesn't even come close. Only the first 3 really get the top names
    around the world booking their airline tickets, regardless of other
    events or appearance money - which is what makes a major. Your PGA is
    in danger of losing it's credibility as a major, IMO, as the number of
    big money tournaments grows around the world. I think we may end up
    with 3 majors.
    
    Paul
    

    
       1  DEC Challenge Cup    (How could you people forget?)
       2  Masters
       3  US. Open
       4  British Open
       5  PGA
    
    -rick

      ps.  I agree with L. Warfield wholeheartedly about the TPC . The
          concept is ok but the course will keep it in the 2nd tier.

    An interesting comment by Scott Hoch on the majors that i read recently
    was that he rated the Memorial very highly as the tournament is
    on a great course and the players are looked after really well.
    He also said that he would love to play in the British Open but
    that his schedule prevented him a lot recently. 
    He won an event played around that time of year on the Tour and
    was pressured to compete year in year out in it.
    
    martin

   1a.) U.S. Open 
    b.) Masters
    c.) British Open
  2.    PGA
  3.    U.S. Amateur (and perhaps the British Amateur)
  4.    TPC (lacks tradition, mistique, but top players usually 
             show up...)

Re: -.1

>  4.    TPC (lacks tradition, mistique, but top players usually 
>             show up...)

	If the TPC wasn't so close to the Masters a lot less top players
	may show up.  It is a good warm up for the Masters.  Look at this
	year with so many European players having to pick & choose their
	slots they pretty much avoided the tournament

	Larry

    
    	1) U. S. Open 
    	2) British Open
    	3) Masters (Only so-called major played on 1 course)
    	4) PGA (If the timing for this event was changed, maybe my vote
    		would too)
    
    

    It's interesting to note that most of the Foreigners chose the British
    Open, while the Americans, with the exception of a few, Payne Stewart,
    Ray Floyd, Chip Beck and Scott Hoch, chose either the US or Masters.
    
    The two highest authorities, Jack and Arnie, pick the US Open as their
    number one (Arnie has it tied with the British).  They rank the Masters
    low on their scale.  Perhaps because it's not a sanctioned tournament.
    
    Anyway, I never really gave it much thought, because I like to watch
    them all, but if I had to rank them I would go with:
    
    	The British Open
    	The Masters
    	The US Open
    	The PGA
    
    My nickles worth.
    
    Len

    I find it hard to believe Hogan when he says he ranks the majors
    equal to each other. It is well known that Hogan put major emphasis
    on the US Open during his career. Who doesn't know of his effort
    to get the magic 5th US Open victory under his belt, failing narrowly
    in 1955 and 1956, firstly to a freak performance by Club pro Jack
    Fleck and then making a bogey on the 72nd hole to miss a playoff
    with Cary Middlecoff.
    
    An interesting aside to this discussion is the fact that although
    Hogan is credited with 4 Opens he actually holds 5 US Open medals,
    which all look the same as each other. The reason is that he won
    an unofficial event in 1942, held during the war to raise funds.
    
    I believe these 5 medals are on view in the Hogan trophy room at
    the Colonial CC in Fort Worth, Texas.
    
Martin o'

    It is  clear  that  people  this  side  of  the pond list an american
    "major" as Numero  Uno,  and from the other side is the British Open,
    so I won't brake that trend.
    
    1) Masters \
    1) US Open / TIE 
    3) British Open
    
    If I was a  pro-golfer I would probably pick the US Open by itself at
    no.  1, but everything the tradition that surrounds the Masters makes
    it tops for me.
    
    Tavo
    

    Which tournament came first?
    
    I don't know but I'd guess the British open. If that's true and
    it still holds aclaim in this day and age then it has to be ranked
    first. I'd then guess that the US amateur was next however it doesn't
    hold the aclaim oweing to the fact it's am amateur. So then we move
    on to the US OPEN. Again it up there in aclaim so it gets second.
    Then there is the Masters. Ya it gets third. Then I'd go with the
    PGA championship.
    
    So My picks are,
    
    			British
    			US
    			Masters
    			PGA
    
    
    
    The players championship is the "US PLayers championship". The only
    reasons it gets participation are;
    
    		1) ten year exemption
    		2) proximity to the masters
    		3) weekly stop on the US tour
    
    It it weren't for any of these three reasons it wouldn't draw.
    
    
    Tom

Two points of view:

If I were competing, my criteria would be: If I could win only one 
tournament, which would it be? If two, which ones? and so forth. And 
my ranking would be:

#1: The Open -- for all the good reasons our friends overseas gave. In 
	particular, I'd want to win at St. Andrews.

#2: The U.S. Open -- The most difficult tournament of the year, 
	therefore the best test.

#3: The Masters -- for the shear prestige of it.

#4: PGA -- Mostly because it's been labeled a "major." 

The TPC isn't a major in any sense that I can think of, but if I were 
making my living at golf, I'd probably be happiear with a win at TPC 
than a win at the PGA; 10 years exemption would buy a lot of my 
respect, I can tell you!

As a spectator, I rank them differently. The question for me is: If I 
could watch only one tournament, which one would it be? My rankings 
then are:

#1: Masters -- incomparible show.

#2: The Open -- Love to watch our boys struggle on the terrain and in 
the climate that gave birth to the game that pays them so well.

#3: The U.S. Open -- just a great championship

#4: PGA -- Better than average tv coverage

But my real #4 would be the Crosby--oops, the AT&T (gag)

    re:.25
    I think the order of appearance of the cahampionships is -
    
    The Open - This year is the 119th
    The British Amateur C'ship
    The US Amateur C'ship - ahead of the US Open by one day!
    The US Open
    The USPGA c'ship - was a Matchplay until 1959
    The Masters
    
    rgds...martin o'

    My picks are:
           U.S. OPEN
           MASTERS
           PGA
    I do not include the British Open, because it is a tournament played
    in cow pastures.  Additionally, the luck of the draw may subject you
    to the fickle finger of fate, that is the weather may be worse for you
    than the other competitors - which I don't find interesting.  Things 
    should be as equal as possible so that the championship is determined
    by the players skills and not the rain, wind, cold, fog or whatever.
    
    I'd put the PGA at the top, if this was prior to 1960.  Match play is
    more exciting.
                          Big Mac

 >    I do not include the British Open, because it is a tournament played
 >    in cow pastures. 


      What garbage some people speak!!! If you have ever played or even been
      round the courses used for THE Open you would realise that they are
      a far better test of golf than the majority of courses in the States.
      Who wants to play pitch and putt on manicured "golf courses". For
      real golf in ALL kinds of weather play over here and not the sunshine
      belt. 

     ps Who are the best players in the world?

        The ones who play in Europe in all kinds of conditions!!!!!!!

               I rest my case
      
                          Danny
 

    Re -.2
    
    Big Mac,
    
    Sounds like you upset Danny a bit there!! But to a certain extent
    I agree with what he says. However, I wouldn't have said that the
    best players are the ones over here necessarily. There are brilliant
    golfers from all round the world, a recent skins game told us that
    with Jumbo Ozaki, Nick Faldo, Curtis Strange and Greg Norman. 
    
    On the course front, I feel you're missing a bit part of what golf
    is all about. Surely, golf is about more than hitting the ball 250-300
    yards off the tee, taking a short iron to the green and hunting
    for birdies! To me it's a test of positioning your shots, looking
    at alternatives, allowing for the conditions and thinking your way
    round. That's the TRUE test of professional golf. The professionals
    are all technically brilliant, so there needs to be something to
    separate them.
    
    The British Open is NOT played on cow pastures! The British courses
    are very different from the US courses. The layouts demand a different
    type of game, but a game that is certainly golf. There are fabulous
    courses in the US, no question. But don't say that there aren't
    equally great ones in Britain too ... ask Tom Watson!!!
    
    
    
    Phil. 
    
    
    
    

    
    
        Guess I flew of the handle a bit with my last reply (I'd just
    finished a BAD nightshift!!!)
    
        Have to agree with what you said Phil. Golf is more than drive,
    short iron and putt as you said. 
    
                  Danny
    

    re last three:
    You missed the point, so I must have said it poorly.  I don't like one
    group teeing off in the cow pasture (in my opinion) in rather still
    conditions and then another group on the same day playing in driving
    rain and wind - it is not a test of golf, but of tee time.  It may be
    that for a given threesome the test if equal, but not if they start
    two hours apart in different groups. What does conquering the weather
    have to do with golf - how rugged a player or how strong a constitution
    or how tolerable of tempature does not equal a good golf course.  
    
    I suggest that Pebble Beach, Spyglass, Edgewood Lake Tahoe, Firestone,
    TPC and many others require more than a drive and a wedge and they are
    beautiful.
    
    As for the greatest players my list would include Hogan, Snead,
    Nicklaus...
    
    Sorry I was a burr in your blanket, but that is how I feel about
    the cow pastures labeled courses and the minature golf obstacles in
    England and Scotland.
    
                               Big Mac
    

    RE:last
>>    You missed the point, so I must have said it poorly.  I don't like one
>>    group teeing off in the cow pasture (in my opinion) in rather still
>>    conditions and then another group on the same day playing in driving
>>    rain and wind - it is not a test of golf, but of tee time.  It may be
>>    that for a given threesome the test if equal, but not if they start
>>    two hours apart in different groups. What does conquering the weather
>>    have to do with golf - how rugged a player or how strong a constitution
>>    or how tolerable of tempature does not equal a good golf course.  

      Do you really know what you are talking about ?
      It sounds to me as if you fall into the category of:-
      1. Fair weather golfer
      2. Thinking that America is bigger therefore better and thus anything else of
      equal or better quality must be discounted without looking at the evidence
      3. A patriotic American who can't live with the fact that Europe has held
      the Ryder cup for the last 6 years..

    
>>    As for the greatest players my list would include Hogan, Snead,
>>    Nicklaus...
    
      Without a doubt these are 3 of the finest players ever to play the game
      BUT also added to the list must be:- Seve,G Norman,H Cotton     



>>    Sorry I was a burr in your blanket, but that is how I feel about
>>    the cow pastures labeled courses and the minature golf obstacles in
>>    England and Scotland.
    
      Demeaning the game played outside the States gives you no credit,if
      you loved the game as most golfers do you would have a bit more feeling 
      for the tradition of the game and that the most important thing in golf
      is the challenge... you versus the course versus the conditions versus
      the opponents.......



     A Few questions:-
     Do you play a lot of golf?
     Have you ever played in Britain if so where...?






    A rather heated Golfer who would rather get back to the topic in hand......
   



   ACE...

    re.32
    
    You obviously know what your talking about when you call courses
    like St Andrews,Turnberry and Royal Troon "cow pastures and mini
    golf obstacles." Next to world famous courses like Spyglass and
    Edgewood Lake Wherever, they just don't compare ?!!?
      If Jack Nicklaus had the choice of winning one more major title
    before he retired what do you think he would choose.......?
    
    THE OPEN at St Andrews or    the us open over Spyglass.(have I spelt
                                                                   it right )
    
    
    It is possibly sour grapes on your part and you obviously feel you
    must condemn the greatest golf courses in the world because American 
    golfers like Strange,Tway,Mize,Sluman and Simpson who have all won majors
    in America in recent years are just not good enough to win the ultimate
    prize in golf i.e THE OPEN.
     European players like Seve,Sandy Lyle and Nick Faldo have all proved
    they can win majors on both sides of the Atlantic.
     To say British courses are "cow pastures and a mini golf obstacle"
    obviously shows a lack of intelligence !!
     
                                           Derek.
    

    I think (hope?) our US colleague has never actually played on one of
    these 'cow-fields'. Until last year I'd always played on parkland
    courses, more akin to the US style when I took a trip to Ayr and played
    Turnberry and Troon. I'd only ever seen them on TV, and I must admit
    I thought they looked pretty flat, dull and not too good condition as
    well
    
    But that's only how they look. When you play them, they are great
    courses in good condition that are fine tests of your game. OK some of
    the 'miniature obstacles' might not look like they're waiting for the
    tide to come in, but believe me they're placed in just the right spots.
    Subtlety is the name of the game. Although there's a bunker at Sandwich
    that should be big enough, if size is important! 
    
    Now you get pretty upset about the influence of the weather, but bad
    weather is just as possible in any of the majors (the masters and your
    open have both had storm interruptions recently - so people are getting
    better conditions depending on their start times there too). As for
    suggesting that conquering weather conditions (wind) isn't important -
    you're not serious are you?
    
    I also played Troon with a couple of US visitors who recognised good
    courses when they played them. I'm sure you would too, if you played
    some of these courses.
    
    Paul

    re:-.1
    Good reply. Could not have put it better myself.
    I felt , on reading the original controversial note, that a strong
    retort was required.
    
    martin

    Twice a week, 50 weeks per year.  More if I could. Mexico, Virgin
    Islands, Canada are the only places I played outside US. Admittedly
    I think little of tradition.  I don't care where my Father came from  
    he gave me the opportunity for life, which was a wonderful gift.
    Sorry you can't accept any view but your own.   Bythe way, I guess its 
    all right to have golfers playing under different conditions and 
    grading their performances equal in the same tournament.

Boy The last few have been really testy.  Early on I said that I thought the
British Open was further down my list due to conditions. I would like to
disassociate myself from those who have been calling the Open rota courses "cow
pastures" and the like. 

I think the courses in Scotland are some of the most interesting around.  I
can't wait to go there on vacation and play them.  They are different from
the typical plush, well watered, tortured dirt, sculpted courses here in the
US.  There are only so many natural sites for golf courses, Scotland just got
more than their fair share.

The conditions I was thinking of were primarily the weather.  A few hours in
variation in tee time could make all the difference between playing in ideal
conditions or weather when most sane individuals are seeking protection indoors.
(Yes I do play in the rain and consider myself sane, but there is weather that
even I won't play in.)

My other undertanding from listening to the TV is that the greens in Scotland
are slower and show more variation between greens on the same course.  This 
doesn't make for a fair test of putting.

But to pick on the caliber of the courses, if you are an American I guess I'll
have to stick by Patrick Henry's(?) words, "I'll fight to the death to defend
your right to be wrong!"

Larry

                            -< The Good Game >-

    
    In my humble opinion:
    
    Golf is a game that attempts to take into account as many factors
    as possible.
    
    Golf does not show discrimination between players.
    
    Courses should be designed to take into account the above
    considerations.
    
    As example:  Consider The Open, often played on courses that punish
    during foul weather, yet yield excellent scores on calm days. But
    consider that during a single round the weather may change more
    than once. 
    
    As example: Consider the player who is in the groove one day, yet
    the next can do no better than scramble for par.
    
       Courses are designed to the local environment, hence courses
    on the coast then to be different from those inland, courses in
    areas of inclement weather will play differently from those in areas
    that have a relatively mild climate.
    
    As far as where the best golfers come from, this side of the pond
    or that, it matters little. What matters is the competition, and
    as long as there are men in different locals, there will be
    competitions and groupings.
    
    May the best player on a given day win, and when it is not ones
    turn to win, may one except it gracefully.
    
    Dave
    
    PS  I like the Masters, just my opinion.
    

    I'm sure the European courses are not cow pastures.  At least they
    don't look like it on T.V.  I will however take exception to comments
    made that American golfers can't win on the other side of the pond.
    I personally feel Curtis Strange is as fine a golfer as ANY european
    player, and if he plied his trade the majority of time on the other
    side of the atlantic would still win his share.  You can fuss as much
    as you want about which tour has better courses or better players, but
    don't tell me Curtis isn't good enough to win the British Open.  I 
    would never say Norman isn't good enough to win the "big" ones. 
    Don't insult me by saying there aren't americans good enough to win on
    European tracks.
    
    Definately jacked...
    
    Rick

    I used to watch the British Open, so I have seen the cow pastures you
    refer to, with there minature golf course bunkers, where a person
    hits a drive in the middle of the fairway and is penalized severely
    for hitting the ball one inch off course.  I have also noted the
    vibrant growth of grass and flowers and particularly the gorgeous
    trees, the magnificent granite outcroppings, the multitude of deer and
    small animals in the forests surrounding, the spouting whales in the
    adjacent ocean and the general warm breezes wafting in with the
    delicious smell of pines.  Of course, the courses I mentioned do
    not compare.  Trying reading about the game, examining pictures,
    seeing ratings on the courses, reading travelogs and watching 
    tournaments on TV, before you pop-off.  Spyglass in my opinion
    is better than Peeble and Edgewater Lake Tahoe is a cut above them
    both.  Rather than analyze me and worry what Nicklaus would like
    to win, consider how much thou dost protest - could it be...
    
    Just to help your perspective, my closest friend in life (recently
    deceased) is from the North Coast - Grimsby.  His favorite course
    was St. Andrews, until he saw Peeble, Spyglass, Edgewood, Harbour Town,
    TPC and some others.  I would not have shared my view with out some
    knowledge and experience, in spite of your view of my intelligence.
    I have played Bajamar in Mexico, which is supposed to be the North
    American course most like the links courses of England and Scotland.
    I found the people warm and friendly, but thought it ridiculous that
    I shot a 126 in the morning wind and an 89 in the warm still afternoon.
    But, in the best tradition, and as a sporting thing, from what you
    suggest that would make the greatest tournament.  I'll pass.
                                Big Mac
    
    

    Hey Big Mac,
    
    I guess this is one that we'll all beg to differ on for ever!
    
    But I'm glad to see that there are some guys over with you that
    appreciate what British courses are all about.. well done Larry
    and Rick. I really don't think that your continual reference to
    'cow pastures' and 'miniature golf courses' is winning you too many
    friends. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, no question about
    that, but undermining the state of British courses is just being
    insulting!
    
    I have to say that I think bringing in the argument of whether one
    player is good enough to win on other tours is not adding much to
    this discussion as then it just gets out of context and we end up
    praising our particular favourite and saying everyone else is a
    jerk!!
    
    So.. to get back on track, why not appreciate that there are different
    types of courses the world over. Each has its own characteristics.
    I don't think golf would be too exciting if all courses were the same,
    do you? 
    
    As for fighting against the elements, I believe the best players,
    you know the guys who practise for hours each day, not like you
    and I, know how to play in ALL conditions. They KNOW how to keep
    the ball under the wind, they KNOW how to shape a shot, they KNOW
    when to attack and when to lay-up. Conditions are obviously a factor,
    but the players have to master them. If they play it right and think
    their way round, then they're usually successful.
    
    On having the best of the conditions, I'm sure someone will correct
    me if I'm wrong, but I think the first two days are drawn anyway,
    so that in a Major at least, if you go out early one day, you'll
    go out later the next day.
    
    
    Finally, I just received a brochure on golf in South West Ireland
    as I'm going there in June for a week. Boy, the 'cow pastures' out
    there...far worse than in Scotland!!! Hope I won't be disappointed
    with courses such as Ballybunion, Killarney, Waterville, Tralee,
    etc...8^)  I doubt it, as there were a few interesting quotes made
    about the courses which encourage me...
    
    
    Tom Watson: "Ballybunion is a course on which many golf architects
                 should live and play before they build golf courses.
                 I consider it a true test of golf"
    
    Tony Jacklin: "Killarney is one of those rare golf courses on which
                   great golf and real visual splendor combine to 
                   provide an unforgettable experience"
    
    Arnold Palmer: "Tralee, I have never come across a piece of land
    (Architect)     so ideally suited for the building of a golf course.
                    I am happy we have one of the world's great links
                    here"  

    Sam Snead: "Waterville, the beautiful monster"
    
 
    Hope you have an enjoyable season Big Mac, I know I will, even 
    though the courses won't be up to much!!!
    
    BTW. Curtis Peculiar is that bad either...8^)
    
    Phil.
    
    

    Re -.1
    
    Sorry folks, that last line was meant to read
    
    "Curtis ISN'T that bad either".
    
    

    My opinion on the previous discussions 
    
    re. cow pastures and minture golf courses
    
    Where is the first tee? - I'd love to play accross the pond, never have
    so until I do (or any of you do) how can you degrade something you've
    never been on. If a bunker is in the middle of the fairway, then I'm
    going to hit an iron to layup.
    
    re. wether
    
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Pebble, Spyglass, Habor town on the
    ocean, didn't they cancel play at Spyglass this year because of high
    winds in the afternoon? Wether is the game, this is not basketball
    played inside, com'on you guys are knocking the game itself. A true
    champion can win on any venue.
    
    peter

re:-.41
>>    I have also noted the vibrant growth of grass and flowers and
>>    particularly the gorgeous trees, the magnificent granite outcroppings,
>>    the multitude of deer and small animals in the forests surrounding,
>>    the spouting whales in the adjacent ocean and the general warm breezes
>>    wafting in with the delicious smell of pines.
    
 mac: Were you born condisending or do you practice????
      Heres hoping you can keep out of this notesfile until you see some sense..





     ACE.......

    May I suggest we stick to attacking the ideas - that's fun - and not
    the person - that not fun.   Phil

    Hi,
    
    	The big question seems to be fairness... Yes the Pro's should be
    able to play under any conditions and win. But I doubt very much
    that a PRO that beats the field under heavy winds, will shoot a
    score low enough to lead a group that played in calm conditions.
    
    	The most accurate test of anything, is to maintain the most
    identical test conditions... then simply swap in the unit under
    test ( work talk ). If a championship is a test to see who the
    best golfer is? The best championship would have the best golfers,
    under as similar conditions as possible... whether or not it's 
    raining or windy doesn't matter, as long as they all fight the
    same difficulties. 
    
    	The British Open must be the most elusive of the Championships,
    and winning it VERY rewarding. I'm sure there are a few that lost
    who will blame the weather for their demise... and winners who will
    be thankfull that the bad weather waited for them to finish etc. 
    But fluctuations in weather do not promote a fair judge of skills,
    unless all players are affected. As far as course architecture,
    wherever the obstacles are... they remain for all players.
    
    	The same can be said for the American courses... if weather 
    patterns favor one group over another? It's the same issue.
    
    So looking at all this, I'd rate the best Championship to be the
    one that best replicated conditions. Which would mean you can't
    find out till "after" the Championship which was the best challenge.
    
    	Walta

    re.41                         
    
         >> "multitude of deer and small animals"<<
         >> "spouting whales"<<
    
    Are you sure you would not rather be at the zoo than on a golf
    course !!
     Personally I play golf for the the love of hitting a wee white
    ball not for whats happening round about me.
     I admit I was wrong about Curtis Strange, he is capable of winning
    any tournament he enters.I do feel though that the majority
    of American courses are set up so that mediocre golfers have a better
    chance of winning than they normally would.
     If more American golfers came over here and played on the
    "cow-pastures" in the wind and rain they would become better
    players.They would have to adapt their game and play a wider variety
    of shots rather than the basic "Target Golf" they are used to in
    the States.
     Lets, as one previous note said "agree to disagree".I look forward
    to the Masters on the tv next week and I hope, from an extremely
    biased point of view you understand,for another European win.That
    will make a hat-trick of wins. Do we get it to keep ????
    
                                              Derek.
           
        
    

Re: -.1
    
> mac: Were you born condisending or do you practice????
>      Heres hoping you can keep out of this notesfile until you see some sense..

On the whole I expect that he's probably playing Devil's advocate & yanking our
collective chain.  Surely nothing to get really worked up about.  A lively
discussion is enjoyable, especially when the weather forecast is so dismal and
the golf season is not in full bloom.  However we do need to be careful that
it doesn't get out of hand.

Several comments about the reply a few back:

1. No one ever said that the middle of the fairway is where you want to be
   on every shot.  I don't like hidden obstacles off the tee on a strange
   course.  However with a caddy or good yardage book you would know that
   it was there and should avoid it.  This sort of strategic thinking is
   what makes for a good golf course design.  Rather than just playing
   Driver, "yawn", Wedge, "yawn", two putts, just another par "yawn".

2. Regarding the affects of playing in windy conditions on your score.  It
   reminds me of the old Scottish saying "If there's nae wind, there's nae
   golf."  At least Scottish courses are designed to be played in the wind
   you can play the ball low, run the ball onto the green.  Some US courses
   are brutal in a stiff breeze.  They require a high shot that lands
   softly.  Well in a stiff breeze this is very difficult to pull off
   successfully.

   Several of the courses you mentioned share common aspects with Scottish
   golf courses.  The front nine at Spyglass is a links layout.  At Pebble
   Beach the wind can be brutal.  (I know. I played out in the calm & back into
   the teeth of a biting gale.)  But the course is designed for those
   conditions.  At Harbout Town you are best leaving your driver in the bag
   and positioning the ball off the tee.

Larry

         It is amazing to me how far we have wandered from the
    subject of this topic. I love it ! This notesfile has been
    just about dead for the last few months and it is good to
    see some life come back.
         My favorite majors are;
                 Bristish Open (Nicklaus-Watson battles hooked me)
                 Masters      
                 U.S. Open
     
       As for the rest of these conversations, there are so many
    thousands of courses in this country all in such varied terrain
    and climatic conditions that we can play any kind of golf we
    choose. Depending on how much you can afford, you can play on
    anything from a cow-pasture to some of the best in the world.
    Some of the tracks that have hosted the U.S. Open have been
    referred to as cow-pastures by the pros playing there so I think
    that ranking each other over the conditions of our courses is
    a waste of time. There are great players all around the world
    and some are known for their ability to play under adverse
    conditions and others can only score when it is warm and still.
        To say that all we know how to play is "target" golf is
    also taking a narrow view. Some people prefer that and some
    courses demand it. How about the Belfry ? Weren't there alot
    of protected greens that had to be hit rather than ran on to ?
    A golfer should know all shots and be able to play any type of 
    course. I try to play a variety of courses that tests my meager
    ability to the limit and not get in a rut of playing the same
    type of game all the time.
    
    Mad Hacker

    re:-.1
    Interesting point about some of the US Open venues being referred
    to as 'Cow Pastures'. I recall reading about Hazeltine, which hosted
    the 1970 Open. Most pros hated it. Dave Hill , who came in second,
    i think, when asked how the course could be improved said that it
    should be ploughed in and start over !
    
    An American cow pasture!
    Big Mac might take pleasure in knowing that the winner of that Open
    was none other than Tony Jacklin, by seven shots!
    
    martin o'

   I would rate the four (and-a-half) majors inthis fashion:
    
    
             #1.  British Open
    
             #2.  The Masters
    
             #3.  U.S. Open
    
             #4(tie).  P.G.A championship and The Players Championship
    
    
              I feel that the first three tournaments could, in anyone's
    
    opinion, be the "best" major.  Yet, the P.G.A., in the past few
    
    years, hasn't been played on very memorable courses nor have the
    
    winners been what I consider to be the best in golf, like the major's
    
    winners should be.  For example, Jeff Sluman won in 1988.  Yes,
    
    he is a great golfer, but he does not represent the best in golf.
    
    I don't even consider Payne Stewart, last year's winner, to be one
    
    of the best in golf, although many people would argue with me on
    
    this point.  Where is Payne this year?

    For me the Majors are ranked in this order......
    
    1. THE OPEN 
    2. The Masters (although number one for tv coverage)
    
     The US Open is not in the same class as the above simply
    because it restricts the amount of overseas invitations in favour
    of average American golfers. Therefore the field is not as strong
    as THE OPEN or The Masters where the cream of world golf, and not
    just American golf, compete.
     As for the US PGA it is in danger of becoming a non-major and as
    far as the TPC is concerned, it will never be good enough to be
    ranked as a major.
    
    ps. Is that a European player winning The Masters again......
        It must be down to all the practice he's doing on the "cow-pastures".
         
    
    
    

    This past week-end, seeing the Masters has shown me the error of my
    ways. It was difficult.  At first, I was excited about the way Ray
    Floyd attacked the golf course as a leader.  Then the marvelous and
    courageous perserverance and calm determination of Nick Faldo got me
    excited.  The need to position the ball on the fairways and then the 
    consistant speed of the greens, with the importance of slope and grain
    determining the direction and speed of puts.  I even got excited about
    the beauty of the course and of the weather.  I saw all of Nick Faldo's
    skill at shot making and similarly Floyd.  I cheered for the great one
    as his bid failed for the seventh green jacket.  I thought about the
    23 years we must wait to see if Faldo can really challenge Jack's 
    mastery of the game.  I was beside myself, when Ray took out the driver
    on that overtime hole and tried to outdistance the known and visible 
    trap on the side of the fairway.  His try from the trap was valiant,
    but alas, he did not have quite the skill.  One thinks back to his
    failure to have the coin moved that may have caused a marvelous chip
    to stay out of the cup - but that sounds like skill, concentration, and
    confidence in one's game, certainly not what I have been told recently
    makes up the game of golf.  No, it would have been much better, if
    Faldo had been able to play an early round in relative nice conditions,
    while Floyd played in a cold, rainy gale, so we would never know who
    was the best golfer in this tournament.  How much more exciting if on
    that last hole, Ray's drive had been center of the fairway, and a small
    unseen pot bunker had snatched his ball and prevented a shot at the
    green.  Here's one Colonist that has learned, to see real golf, you need
    a cow pasture in England or Scotland.
    
                                 Big Mac
    

    -1 ... huh?
    

    Dear INDEV3::GSMITH
    
    Sarcasm is an art form. Unfortunately, Big Mac has not mastered
    that art. We all know, from his recent incoherent diatribes on the
    merits or otherwise of non-US golf courses, that Big Mac is the
    definitive expert on how golf should be played. 
    It must be really tough for the poor man to accept that for the
    third year in succession the grossly chauvinistic American golf
    establishment has had to suffer the winning of one its major prizes
    by a foreigner. The fact that this is now six of the last 11 playings
    of that tournament to be won by a foreigner really proves his point
    about cow pastures - if you can play in one of those then Augusta
    is just another golf course. 
    
    Getting back to the Masters, Faldo's win was indeed a triumph for
    good, attacking confident play. 4 shots picked up over 6 holes sounds
    like a leader's collapse, but it was not. It was done through 3
    birdies, over what is arguably the toughest 9 holes in golf. Unlike
    Big Mac, however, I did not see Floyd in any bunker on the first
    tie hole, but I saw the tournament on relayed US television, and
    their whole presentation of the action was so biased, their reporting
    so prejudiced and their sour grapes so obvious that it is possible that
    I missed that part - they obviously had some studio artist drawing
    grass in the bunkers so we could not see that Raymond was in trouble.
    
    Does anyone else think we should have more European players in the
    tournament so that it can be REALLY classified as a test of who
    is the best golfer. Seven Europeans took part/were invited. Four
    are previous winners; only one failed to survive the cut; five finished
    in the top 15. This is a much better group performance than the
    much vaunted US golfers produced.
    
    Anyway, INDEV3::GSMITH, I have rambled off the subject. Don't get
    mad at Big Mac. It really is hard to be a good loser, no matter
    how much practise one has had at losing - and right now the US PGA
    reps have had lots of such practise, which must madden its bigoted
    supporters.
    
    Yours in Golf,
    Sean  

    re.54
    
    If Ray had kept his driver in the bag on the 72nd hole (like Faldo) he
    might not have put it in that huge visible trap on the fairway, given
    himself a chance for 3 and won the tournament. (Of course European
    golfers can make 3 from the sand to win anyway :-))
    
    

    RE .56
    	While I don't agree with Big Mac., and don't condone some of
    his replies/remarks, do you honestly think you're any better than
    he with that reply you entered?
    
    Beak

    Beak,
    No, I don't. I merely wanted to show how offensive his snide remarks
    can be. Two wrongs do not make a right, but merely highlight the
    wrong. 
    Sean

    
       With these replies and some of the others, I find the European
    vs U.S. debate rather tiresome. One of the biggest advantages that golf
    has over other sports, it that it is a test of one's skills measured
    against the course, weather, and yourself. Whoever the winner of the
    Masters, or any other event for that matter, is I say congradulations.
    You have earned it. If the winner is from the U.S., Spain or the Moon,
    who cares ? The sport of golf won again by having an exciting final
    day. Not the country that the golfer calls his home.
    
    
    
                                Ken

    	I agree Ken.  To me, I don't care where a winner comes from.
    I enjoy the sport, both playing myself, and watching the worlds
    greatest.  Whether the winner of the Masters is a US player, a European
    player, from Japan or Australia, or any other part of the world,
    matters very little to me.  I want to see good, competitive golf,
    just like we saw this past weekend.  The same goes for the British
    Open or any other tournament for that matter.  I do not wish to
    get into the U.S. vs Europe thing.  I would assume, that's what
    the Ryder Cup matches are all about.  And even then, my hats off
    to the winners, no matter what side they're on!!!
    
    Beak

    Totally agree with the last two notes, although being partisan
    I wanted Faldo to win. Had he not won and Floyd had, it would not
    have detracted from my enjoyment. Floyd played fantastic and it
    was a shame one of them had to lose.
     The problem I have with some Americans is that they feel they have
    the right to win all the time.Why is it so hard for you to accept 
    that your dominance of world golf has ended and that you don't just
    have to turn up to win.
     Golf is now a world sport dominated by no one and the longer it
    stays that way the better.I look forward to the next major and hope
    it is as exciting and as international as this years Masters.
    
                                                   Derek.
                           
    
    

    re: .56
    Evidently my message goes well beyond some peoples' ability to 
    comprehend.  Read .54 carefully and you will see that I was most
    complimentary to Mr. Faldo.  I did not mention Ray Floyd being in
    the trap on the first overtime hole.  I never suggested that you
    could not learn to play golf in a cow pasture - I learned on a
    football field and the adjacent vacant acreage.  
    
    I do not believe that the shot making skills of the athletes in a
    major golf championship should become secondary to the capricous
    weather or a cow pasture with little hidden pot bunkers, etc. That
    is all I have ever said.  It seems that my European Brethren do
    not understand English.  My German and my Spanish are too poor for
    me to use those languages.
    
    I felt that we saw a magnificent tournament at Augusta, on a wonderful
    golf course, in weather that allowed the athletes the opportunity to
    display their golfing skills to the utmost.  It has been a rare event
    in deed when the same can be said for the British Open, due to the
    changing weather and the cow pastures on which it is played.  I have
    never uttered a negative word about European Golfers - I have the
    utmost
    respect for their athletic accomplishments.  I do not care about
    color, nationality, religion, etc. in an athlete - I want to see more
    golf like this past week-end.
    
    Big Mac

    Dear, oh dear, Big Bad Mac,
    
    Everyone's problem with you has nothing to do with the golfers
    ... it's with that continual description of some of the greatest
    courses on earth as cow pastures. 
    
    When is THAT going to get through to YOU ??
    
    BTW ... I don't recall one voice of support for your opinion yet.
    Enough said.
    
    Tony.
    
    p.s.  I don't have any great problem with anything Ray Floyd had
    to say ... we make such a big deal here about what it means to
    win the Masters, and he's not entitled to be disappointed ?!
    

    As author of a reply which is currently drawing some flak, may I
    defend my points:
    1. By referencing the finishing positions of the Euro contingent
       I was no saying "we're better than you". I let the Ryder cup
       players decide that one every two years. I was suggesting that
       maybe more such players should be invited, as more than the guys
       who played have the ability to win tournaments. As its title
       says, the tournament is the "Masters", designed to find the
       Master Golfer of the moment, so ALL the best players should get
       a chance to compete for the title.
    2. My reference to bigotry applied primarily to the TV presentation.
       Both in words and pictures it was the most chauvinistic I have
       ever encountered. Naturally supporters are biased - we all have
       our favourite players, least favourite players, favourite courses
       etc. I accept that this is part of any sport, but I cannot condone
       gratuitous insults as instanced by the frequent references to
       "cow pastures". Different is not always better, or worse. It
       is merely "different".
    
    Finally, the tournament itself was again the winner. We had four
    days of magnificent (and some mediocre) golf; two of the game's
    greats in a head to head battle for the title; a magnificent course,
    and tension that no scriptwriter could invent. Anyway, what
    scriptwriter would come up with the same type of finish so often?
    As the organiser said at the presentation, maybe it should now
    officially become a 74 hole contest.
    
    Yours in Golf,
    Sean
    
    ps. I hoped Jack would win it, but there's always next year. 

    re: .64
    
    Thank you for stating the problem.  My apologies to all that were
    offended by my choice of terminology for describing the courses
    where the British Open is played.  
    
    Big Mac

         I like to think of golf courses like sex. Everytime I've
    played, I liked it. Some courses are smooth and silky, others
    are a little rough around the edges. Sure beats working !!!

    On the subject of the Masters, I wanted Floyd to win because he was an
    American, I don't care about watching good golf, I want the boys from
    the good old US of A to win. Please don't get me wrong, I like Nick,
    and probally one of my faviorite players to watch is Ian Woodsman, but
    I sick and tired of hear that crap about how good the Europeans are.
    After all wasn't it the American who beat the Brits so badly in the 60
    and 70's that they had to get the rest of Europe to join in on the
    Ryder cup? And it's a good thing they are now splitting the matches
    (yes last year was a tie, level, dead even, I don't care who owns the
    cup), because it would probally be the WORLD against the USA for the
    Ryder Cup.
    
    Another thing, Nick is just a boring winner, the man backs his way into
    vicorys so boringly, 18 stright pars to win the Open, a guy misses a 1
    foot put to win the masters, another guy hits the only shot in 74 holes
    into the water. Boring.
    
    Peter

    Re:-.1 by Peter Stopera
    
    A lot of fuel to this particular fire!!
    
    I must take issue with you on your view of Faldo's 'Boring' wins.
    I think it was Nicklaus who said that most golf tournaments were
    lost not won.
    In fact Jack himself won a fair share of his major titles by others
    not handling the pressure, examples being the '62 US Open, '63'72
    Masters, '71 USPGA , '70 British (remember Sanders' missed putt)
    I suppose you'd find all those wins boring too!
    
    I think you're way out of line in criticising a player's successes
    when he had no control over what others are doing.
    
    Martin

    Martin
    
    I don't remember your examples, seeing I was 4 years old in 62', etc.,
    again I think Nick is a great great player, and I like watching him
    play, I wish us American could see more of him and the rest of the boys
    from accross the pond (it's only Seve I lothe), I just think that his
    wins have been boring, I agree with Bob Hustons assement of Sunday, it
    was boring - until Nick proves differently - he is a boring winner.
    
    peter

    
      Faldo most certainly did *not* back into the Master's title this
    year.  He was the only one other than a brief moment from Couples,
    that mounted any kind of charge on the back nine.
    
          Great ..let me repeat a GREAT par on 12
          Birdies 13
          Birdies 15
          Birdies 16
    
      Under the conditions and pressure, Faldo was the one that came
    through.  Give him all the credit he deserves.  IMHO of course.
    
    -rick

    See the new issue of Golf Digest for Dan Jenkins's article on the
    "lost" majors (as he calls them), such as the Western Open. Stimulating
    stuff.
    
    	Frank
    

    Re -.2
    
    Peter,
    
    I've finally stopped laughing at your memo!! It was brilliant. I
    hope the rest of the guys from Europe take it with a pinch of salt
    like I have. 
    
    It clearly is something you don't think much of..the fact that the
    US domination of world golf no longer exists. I admit until the
    1980's you guys had it pretty much your own way. But all that has
    changed now. It can only be for the good of the game as a whole.
    
    Anyway, wouldn't you get excited too if your favourites started
    winning the majors? Remember that there hasn't been too much to
    shout about for us before the 1980's, only Tony Jacklin's successes
    in the 1970's. So you shouldn't be surprised that we're raving about
    the European players. They HAVE improved.
    
    I'm sorry to say Peter, but I think you're going to have to accept
    the fact that a European now has as good a chance as any US golfer
    of winning the majors. 
    
    Secondly, majors aren't handed to you on a plate. What is Nick 
    Faldo's gain is someone else's loss. It's not his fault if Ray Floyd
    can't keep his ball in play for whatever reason. And remember, Nick
    still had to keep his ball in play. He could of followed Ray Floyd
    into the water, but hit a great 8 iron to the ideal spot instead.
    Don't take credit away from a guy just because someone else screws
    their chance up. I suppose it would be different if Floyd had won
    on the 10th when Nick bunkered his approach!! Surely there's no
    difference...you could say Floyd stole in because of Faldo's error.
    
    
    Finally, If Nick is boring, then my game must be the most exciting
    one ever to watch. Unlike Nick I'm not 100% sure where the ball
    will go when I swing the club. That's pretty exciting isn't it??
    Knowing that you're going to hit the ball straight and clean must
    be a real pain in the butt!! I know which I'd prefer...give me boring
    everytime. Maybe if I practise a bit more, I could become a bit
    more boring. 
    
    Sorry about the touch of sarcasm here...I've been reading too many
    of Big Mac's replies...8^). No offence Big Mac, thanks for the apology
    by the way. 
    
    
    Thanks for keeping this spicey note going Peter.
    
    
    
    Phil.

    
        
    
    
 
    
       
    

    Too slow off the mark obviously!!
    
    My reply .73 is in response to .68, not .71
    
    Phil
    
    
    

    thanks phil - i'm glad to see people do have a since of humor, you know
    it's tuff for us americans to take, first we lose in basketball in the
    olimpics (sp?), then those dam europens are kicking our butts in golf
    turneys, i just don't know what will be next - the london blue soxs
    winning the worlds series!
    
    here's one american who is rooting for the us of a in the world cup
    (that's that soccer torney right?), we'll get back at you europens yet.
    
    peter

    
    Nick backed into it...?!!!
    
    There were only five rounds under 70 in the final round and Nick had
    one of them to get into the playoff...!!!
    
    	Faldo		69
    	Wadkins		68
    	Couples 	69
    	Crenshaw	69
    	Calcavecchia	69
    
    Gene...

    	If anyone backed into anything, it was Floyd for sure.  He shot
    even par on Sunday, while Faldo wnet 3 under.  I remeber seeing
    Floyd birdie 12 and bogey 17, but that's it.  All pars other than
    that.  Faldo birdied 3 holes on the back 9 and had a GREAT par on
    12 and another GREAT par on 10, the 1st playoff hole.  The bunker
    shot he played on 10, given the circumstances, was noting but
    incredible!!!
    	You have to give credit where credit is due.  Faldo WON that
    tournament, plain and simple.  He made the key shots at the key
    times.  And Floyds iron into the water on the 2nd playoff hole,
    was just a bad shot.  If he hit that shot on Saturday instead, he
    would have finished 2 shots behinf Faldo, and noone would have even
    mentioned it, or started to accuse Faldo of a boring win.  In my
    opinion, the only boring win, is one where you know who the winner
    is with more than 4 holes left to play.  That's a boring win.
    
    Beak

    Relax Peter,
    
    There is no London Blue Sox Baseball Team    ;-)
    
    We have the Reading Royals Though  ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
    
    Wayne

    Sheesh! I thought this topic was supposed to have something to do
    with ranking the majors, not "ranking" each other! Well, okay, then
    I'll add my 2% worth on the '90 Masters (and try to avoid any Brit
    bashing or other unseemly displays of nationalistic chauvinism):
    
    Faldo won the Masters; but he had to have some help from Floyd,
    and he got it. I was incredulous when Raymond hit driver on 18,
    and wound up in the bunker (I seem to remember a lot of comments
    about "no brainer" when Norman put a drive in a bunker 300+ yards
    from the tee at last year's Open...nobody seems to have said much
    in this regard about Floyd's overclubbing when the bunker was only
    about 260 from the tee). Tom Weiskopf may have had the most trenchant
    comment on the shot on 74 that found the water: he said it looked
    as though Raymond had got greedy, and was going for the pin, rather
    than playing it safely onto the fat of the green. Take nothing from
    Faldo (even if it means swallowing a little national pride). If
    his performance doesn't once and for all put to rest the British
    press's penchant for calling him Nick Foldo, then nothing ever will.

    Still, neither of these guys is a favorite of mine, so I had no
    great emotional investment in seeing either of them win. I was just
    happy to see a couple more holes of great golf.
    
    Frank
    

    re. Nick backing in
    
    My term seems to be misunderstood, let me put it another way, if Greg
    Norman had the same fortunes as Nick, then he would rank up there as
    one of the greatest players of all time.
    
    re. Brit bashing
    
    I by no means am doing any brit bashing, if I offended anyone then I
    apology.
    
    Peter

    RE .79
    	   If Floyd had made Bogey on 18, and lost the tournament there,
    after hitting driver into the bunker, then i would have mentioned
    it as a very big mistake.  Since he was able to save par anyway,
    and went to sudden death, and there is certainly no guarantee he
    would have made birdie, had he hit 3 wood off the tee and avoided
    the bunker, I didn't consider it that much of a mistake.  Actually,
    when you think about it, he must have known he was getting tired
    or something, and felt the driver would give him a club or 2 less
    into the green to have a good shot at making birdie on 18.  After
    his iron into the water on the 2nd playoff hole, I can now see why
    he felt he had to hit driver off the 18th tee.  He obviously knew
    something you didn't.  That is, he hit only 9 greens all day, so
    wasn't hitting his irons all that good on Sunday, and felt the only
    real chance he had at birdie on 18, was to get all of a driver and
    have a shorter shot into the green.  I applaud Floyd for not wanting
    to finish 2nd, and going for the win instead.  Of course, hind sight
    is always 20/20, and there will be those who will say Floyd made
    the wrong choice.
    
    Beak

    I think we're all understanding each other better now, but I'd like to
    add that I'm not trying to indulge in any US (or anyone) bashing.
    
    Like Phil says, the truth is that the US tour no longer dominates World
    Golf like it used to. We're not 'bashing' anyone here, just making a
    statement we believe to be true.
    
    Faldo, etc are our favourite players because they are the players we
    know best. Any favouritism and defence for them should not be construed
    as overtly nationalistic. Unfortunately we just don't get to see enough
    of the Zinger's, Calcavecchia's to develop any kind of rapport with
    them. When Palmer, Trevino, Nicklaus, Watson, etc ruled the world there
    was plenty of respect and admiration over here for them because nothing
    else could match the US tour. (OK we would have liked Jacklin to be
    there as well, but he just wasn't good enough.)
    
    Paul                         

    re. Nick "Foldo"
    
     I read the good old "daily's" over here in Brit land and have 
    yet to see the British press described Faldo as "Foldo". Nothing
    could be farther from the truth, even before he decided to change
    his swing and go on and win his 3 majors. 
      Where do all you yanks get your info !!!!!
              
                                           Derek. 

    Changed the profile, says it all.
    
    WE'RE JUST TOO GOOD FOR YOU YANKS............


                         Derek.
    

    Hi Derek (and all the other European noters),
    
    	Not being a person to use words where actions speak best... I
    thought the American noters could challenge the European noters
    at a round of golf. That would clear up a lot of unnecessary chatter
    about who's better... after all wouldn't it be more appropriate to
    have DEC Europe, play DEC USA? Rather than leave it up to non_DECsters
    like Faldo and Floyd? Those two don't realize the importance of
    DEC noters bragging rights!
    
    	So, how are we to pull this one off??? 
    
    I vote for something like, the Europeans pick their representatives
    ... like a foursome, they play 18 holes. The USA team does the same.
    We play equally difficult courses. Total scores tabulated. Winner
    gets the most prestigious award known to DEC... the right to brag!
    
    Or we could just out drink you? ;) 
    
    Walta
    

    Re .85
    Now THAT'S what I call a good idea.
    
    However, staright away I can see problems - like how do you pick
    a USA team, or a Euro team, given the spread of locations in each
    area.
    
    However, how about an inter-facility competition on the lines you
    mention, with maybe the top 5 facilities in its area representing
    that area in the US V Europe match.
    
    Then, in good DEC fashion, who is going to take on the organising
    of the contest - like equalising the base score on the different
    courses etc.  I for one would be interested in getting a Galway
    team organised.
    
    What will we call the tournament? Will it be the Digital Closed?
    Will it be a major?  (I'd love to win a major, but right now it
    would have to be in my dreams!)
    
    Sean 

    
    RE the last few
    
    Us Yanks got the name "Nick Foldo" supposedly from the British press.
    Personally I read it in a US paper that said that even the British
    press would have to take back there name Nick Foldo after this 
    Masters victory. Ok so it is 3rd hand (at least) but according to 
    this the name came from the Brits.  Whoever started it, he sure
    has stopped it.
    
    US vs Europe:
    
    Seems like a good concept, one easier, though not as fun way to tell
    is to look in the note for your best score of the year.
    
    As for the US outdrinking them Brits, how can you out drink someone
    who drinks warm Beer :-) ?
    
    --Bob
    

    My apologies to those who may have been offended at my having mis-
    understood good-natured raillery for transatlantic bashing...
    
    Nonetheless, this topic has gotten very far afield of its purported
    intent, which was to rank the major tournaments, not to engage in
    US vs. the world arguments over superiority! It is inescapably obvious
    to the most casual observer that US golfers can't win tournaments
    against international (somehow the word "foreign" seems offensive
    to me) golfers simply by showing up and taking off the headcovers.
    Global parity is a fact.
    
    		Frank

    I  watched the Masters again just to see if I had missed anything
    but no ! It happened the same way every time. Faldo played steady
    golf all day, rammed in some crucial birdy putts, made some tough
    pars, and waltzed away with another green jacket. Floyd somehow
    held his lead all day while hitting one misdirected shot after
    another and then scrambling for pars. His swing looked awful
    when compared with his usual flowing motion. I thought it amazing
    that he held on to the end and made it into a playoff.
       As far some other ideas, after spending 10 years in the Navy
    and drinking many beers in many ports with many Brits, I would
    rather not get into a drinking contest with them. Unless of course
    I can have an Aussie on my team !!!!! As for a golf tourney, let's
    tee'em up and have at it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Mad Hacker

    re.85
    
     Bad idea !! As you know from having read this notes conference,
    we over here only have ""cow pastures"" to play on.Therefore this
    puts us at a great disadvantage.
     Pay our expenses and we'll come over to yank land and inflict a
    heavier defeat on you than the Ryder boys of '87....
     At this moment American soil seems to suit us Europeans !!!!!
    
                                             Derek.

    re: .90
    Peter Jacobson was quoted today, in the Los Angeles Times, responding
    to a question about the Europeans doing well in the U.S. (this is as
    close as I can come),  " Courses on the PGA Tour have thick grass and
    well groomed greens, whereas they are used to hitting out of hoof
    prints and jeep tracks".  So Derek, others see it as an advantage,
    particularly if we play them down.
    
    Big Mac

    
    
        Read in the paper recently that Nicklaus rated the Masters 4th in the
        the list of Majors. True or False ??? If thats true it must really
        have hurt the nationalistic pride. Eh boys !!!!!
    
                                       Derek.
    
       

    re: .92
    
    I don't know if Jack said that or not, but Alzheimers could strike at
    50. I do know that he still hits the ball well, as we both have seen.
    We don't seem too worried about nationalistic pride, we know that we
    are seen as the Colonists by those on the other side of the pond.
    
    Big Mac

    Big Wimpy,
    
    I was wondering would it not be better to make The Masters a European
    Tour Event rather than an American one ! Better still why not just give
    us The Masters and save us the bother of coming over next year and
    taking it of you again !!!
       
                               Derek.

    
    	RE: .92
    
    	Derek,
    
    	Yup, in the article in Golf Digest (the article that inspired this
    	note) Jack did rate the Masters 4th...
    
    	U.S. Open - Brit. Open - PGA Championship - Masters
    
    	Gene

    
       Nicklaus did rate the Masters 4th in order of importance, however
     he did say it was his favorite tournament to play in.  He may also
     have been humble about it, since he has won 6 green jackets.  
    
    -rick

    
    
    I was reading this magazine that is sent to me by some clothing
    supplier out of Rochester NY last night. Good articles on the 4
    majors and the television coverage. Also a good article on Bob Jones.
    
    An interesting bit of information on Faldo and Lyle. The way the
    article read, Faldo has been on Lyles coat-tails all his life. Lyle
    wins a tourney, than Faldo wins it later, well except for winning
    2 green jackets in a row. Also, that there is no love-loss between
    them, especially after Faldo turned Lyle in for the putter incident.
    Lyle put something on his putter to reduce the glare off of it.
    
    The magazine has some good information on the courses and majors.
    
    Dave

    Faldo vs Lyle.
    
    This was something of media invention. Both are similar ages and came
    through as youngsters on the European Tour at about the same time.
    Looking back I can't really remember who was more successful first
    (other than Lyle won Majors first). 
    
    I don't really think any animosity existed, but because they disn't
    share rooms on tour, drink together in the bar, etc the media decided
    it was because they were deadly enemies. It's not saying they are great
    buddies, but they're just seperate people. The usual kind of twisted
    media question "Are you two great friends?". The answer "No, we're just
    2 golfers, we don't actually know each other" tends to get re-written
    as "No, I wouldn't give that Scot the time of day."
    
    Faldo has a first on Lyle - he got divorced first!

	Nicklaus said that he rated the Masters 4th because it wasn't a
	championship like the others.  It's just a premier invitational
	tournament.

	Larry

     The Lyle versus Faldo saga is not completely a media invention.
    They are approximately the same age and have been rivals since their
    schoolboy days. The rivalry was heatened however when Faldo reported
    Lyle to R and A officials, after completing a round during a
    European Tour event, for putting a piece of sticky tape on the 
    head of his putter to keep the glare of the sun out of his eyes. 
    Lyle was disqualified and they haven't been the closest of friends since.
     Lyle was the first to win both THE Open and The Masters before
    Faldo managed to do it. Faldo now holds a 3 to 2 lead over Lyle in 
    "majors" victories.
                           Derek.
                             
    

    It is surprising to me how proudly British golfers refer to 
    themselves as "Europeans" since they gave up trying to win the
    Ryder Cup on their own. 
    
    Am I mistaken, or would one not have been corrected for calling
    an Englishman a "European" several years ago?
    
    By the way, being "dominant" to me means being the country with
    the most talent or power in a particular area, not necessarily
    that you will still win if the entire rest of the world teams up
    to defeat you.
    
    P.S. Looking forward to playing some of those pastures in the 
         future. If that's where Nick learned to play there must be
         something right about them.
    
    Alan 

    I read recently where Gene Sarazen suggested the Ryder Cup be played as
    a three team event. It would include an Asian team. 
    Not a bad idea. With the Ozaki brothers, the Chen brothers and Tommy
    Nakajima playing as well as they do here in the US and on the world
    tour.
    
    Ken