Conference 7.286::golf

    Hmm, if I'd played yesterday, my biggest ball-position problem would
    have been finding it under six inches of new snow. As to where the
    ball should be, relative to my feet - generally I try to put it
    somewhere about in the middle, a little more forward on woods and
    long irons, a little further back on short irons. Other than that,
    I try not to be standing too close to the ball *after* I hit it!
    
    	Frank

    My reference point is my nose. When I hit a seven iron I try to insure the
    ball is in the middle of my stance and I line the ball up or use my
    nose as a reference point. I move the ball back for the 8, 9, pw and sw
    and forward fo the 5-2. 
    
    Pete

    Hacker, the place to learn ball position is the practice range. Start
    with the piching wedge. Place a ball down on the range, draw a line
    from it to you, now position both feet equidistant on either side of
    the line (make sure that you are aligned to your target). Hit a few
    balls. If you hit your target, then that is your pitching wedge ball
    position. If not, move the ball one ball width to either side and hit
    a few until you find the position that is best for you.
    Once you have the ball position for the wedge determined then take your
    8 iron and place the ball one ball width to the left and proceed as
    above. Then move to the 6 etc. This takes time but it works.
    One pitfall, only practice as long as you can concentrate and quit
    when you begin to feel tired.
    Let us know how you make out.

      Thanks for the input ! I was at the range last night
    and was trying to work out this problem with ball posi-
    tion. After hitting what I thought were a lot of slices
    I stood back and looked at where I had been hitting and
    realized that I had been hitting at a target approx. 20
    degrees to the right of my practice tee and I was also
    taking my normal open stance in relation to the edges of
    the tee mat. It is no wonder I was spinning the ball so far
    off to the right!!!!! I was playing the ball just off my
    left heel by aliging myself very carefully before each shot
    and insuring that my foot was positioned properly. So, it
    seems that I have figured out how to insure I don,t get the
    ball to far forward in my stance but I need to develop a
    pre-shot routine that will put me in the correct alignment
    to hit the ball where I want it to go. Oh well, back to the
    range !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    MAD HACKER

    Hacker, here is what I do for a pre-shot routine. Start behind the ball
    to establish the target line, place the leading edge of the club
    square to the target line, place my left foot in position, place my
    right foot in position, left hand grip, right hand grip, set my posture
    (by sticking out my rear end and feeling the firmness in the small of
    my back) check alignment of feet, relax and fire. 
    To get comfortable with any pre-shot routine do it at the practice
    range for a bucket of balls. That will make it easier for you to do it
    automatically on the course.
    Rich

    I , Mr Hacker,(are you buying any beers this year?) agree with Rich
    EXCEPT
    the right foot is dominate set first and then left foot set, at
    least with me,hands ahead, head behind,and sitting,relax, and
    let it rip!
                                                    Ang
      
      
    
    

    Ang, I don't know what this reference to beer is ?
     Due to a blood sugar problem I haven't had a cold
    foamy one in almost 3 years :*( !!!
    
    Mad Hacker
    
    p.s. Setting the right foot first seems to be working
         for me.

        Ang,
    
    
             why the right foot ? For a right-handed golfer, if one is
    trying to play the ball, let's say either even with the left heel or
    just inside it, wouldn't it be better to position the left foot first ?
    Then set the right.
     If you set the right foot first, wouldn't the chances of taking a stance 
    that is too wide or narrow increase because you have to now align your
    left heel to the ball ??
    
    
    
    
                      Ken

    After answering a previous reply in this topic, I looked
    down at my feet and realized that I don't know my left
    from my right. What I have been trying to do as part of
    a pre-shot routine (never used one consistently) is to make
    sure that the ball is positioned on a line straight out from
    my heels (with feet together). Then I move my left foot for-
    ward about 1 inch and my right foot back depending on what
    club I am using (wider for woods, narrower for short irons).
       This seems to be working out as I am positioning the ball
    very consistently and making very solid contact. Still have
    to get rid of that power-fade (big slice) but at least I,m
    hitting the ball now and not just rolling it along the ground.
    
    Mad Hacker

    re -1 (Mad Hacker)
    
    I've had great sucess with the same routine you mentioned.  I was
    having trouble getting comfortable at address so I started a pre
    shot routine much like yours.  I will te the ball up, take a 
    practice swing, then stand behind the ball to pick my target line.
    I then focus on something around 4-5 feet in front of my ball on
    the target line, stand with both feet together with the ball in
    the middle of my 2 feet.  Small step forward and larger one backward,
    little waggle to loosen up and let it rip!!  I've been doing this
    for about 2 years now and have been consistently striking the ball
    well and hitting straighter.  I really believe in a pre shot routine
    and feel it really helps out
    
    	Mike

    Hacker, re . Power Fade...
    
    
    Have you tried the "through the gate" drill?  I use this whenever I
    start to develop a slice.  Position two tees or two balls on either
    side of the ball you are aiming to strike. The portion of the "gate
    nearest you will be about 3'' away from your target ball and forward of
    it. The far 'Post' of the gate is also about 3'' out from the target
    ball, but positioned behind it  see figure 1
    
    
         __
                      *
                        o
                          *
         __
    
    
    Where the dotted lines are your feet, the o is your target ball and the
    * are the elements of the "gate".  When you can consistantly hit the
    target and not move either gate post, you WILL be hitting either a
    straight ball or a draw. 
                             

    Left or right, it really makes no difference. As long as you have a
    routine and do not let tension creep into the body at addresss you
    should make a decent shot. That is, providing the basics are correct.
    My variation is (for the driver) to position the ball about one inch
    to the left (forward) of my left toe and then point the left toe toward
    the ball without moving the left heel.
    This past fall I had the chance to have my swing taped on the golf
    course (courtesy of Jeff Burke) and I saw that my hands, just before
    the start of the backswing had some crazy movement that I had developed
    in order to relax. Now To get rid of it. Ever try to change a routine?
    Very difficult. My advice is when you set up your routine, incorporate
    something that makes you completely relaxed. 
    If any of you have any suggestions or tricks that you use to relax
    before you pull the trigger I would be interested in hearing them.
    I have yet to come up with someting that I can use in my routine.
    Maybe it will save me some brain cells, to be used on the course.
    Thanks,
    Rich

    Ken, MH, rich and all concerned:
    (MH, didn't you buy a bunch of beers @stow for a hole in one??)
    Well anyway, I set my right foot first since I use the left
    to either open or close the stance.So I feel better if my eyes hands
    BOTTOM of club face and right foot are set, I can adjust the left
    foot to what I want to do.(Even though Trevino jumps around a lot
    I still
    think he also sets up this way?)
    The two pros (Paul Harney and Dan Diskin) i ever talked to specifically
    said "play back of middle on 6 thru wedge, middle 6thru 4, and a
    little
    up 3 thru driver).
    Ang
    

         Ang, you must have me confused with somebody else !
     Never played a Stow and havn't had that ace yet either.
     I live in Calif. and havn't even been to Bedford for
    training in 3 years.
    
    Mad Hacker

    Dear MH
    " sorry" must be "have clubs will travel".
      I think, ok HCWT, is that you with the ace @ StoW???
    Ang
    

    Angie,
    
    	The "infamous" Have Clubs Will Travel, of the DEC Stow League "B"
    division, of whom you and I both enjoyed a frosty... due to his Aceing
    the 3rd hole South side, is none other than Steve Clements.
    
    For others -
    	
    	Steve started sending mail to the Golf League members, announcing
    his availability as an alternate. He would give you status on his 
    teams win loss records, and encourage you to consider him should you
    need an alternate. He ended every mail message with "Have Clubs will
    Travel". The night he got the Ace, everyone in the Club house was
    buzzing... "Who got the hole in one? Where is he? " When it was heard
    Steve Clements got the Ace, no one knew of the name. Until someone
    overheard Steve say "Have Clubs will travel", everyone laughed,
    saying "OOOOOH !! THAT Steve Clements !!" No we all call him "Have
    Clubs will travel".
    
    	Walt
    

    Mad, J. Conway's gate is a good drill to get rid of your power
    fade/slice. It promotes a very slight in-to-out clubhead path and
    assumes that the clubface direction is square in relation to the
    clubhead path. Now does your power fade start out straight to the
    target? Or, does it start a little to either side? If it is straight,
    then your clubhead path is on line (that is, inside-along the line
    through impact-and back inside again. That means that the fade is
    caused by an open clubface. All you have to do is find out what is
    causing the open clubface and correct it. Voila!!!
    If the ball starts out to either side of the target, that means that
    the clubhead path is faulty in addition to the open clubface. 
    Now, that is just the pure physics of what happens (cause and effect).
    I think that, never having seen your grip, alignment, posture and
    swing plane, any advice that I can think of, will probably mess you up
    more.
    My suggestion is find a pro (I think someone else said this to) that
    you are comfortable with and with whom you can communicate easily.
    Set up a series of lessons to find out what your faults are and another
    series of lessons to correct those faults.
    It might help to explain that you are looking for a regular "coach",
    one that you can return to and who knows you and your swing.
    After each session go home and write down anything that you feel is
    important for reference later on.
    Good luck and let us know how you make out.
    Rich                                                        

         Thanks for all trhe tips. I have heard about the "gate"
    drill but have never tried it. I have used a box that was set
    up just outside and behind the ball to see if I was coming into
    the ball from the outside but most times I never touch the box.
    I will give the gate drill a try. As far as direction goes,
    usually the ball starts a little right (but straight) then starts
    bending about 150 yards out. I used to hit it left and then let
    the curve bring it back into the middle but now the curve is
    to big and many times when I try to hit to the left I pull the
    ball on a rope into the treeline. This has been going on for 6
    months now so I am very frustrated. Never had such a long slump
    with my driver before. I am going to take lessons to insure that
    my swing mechanics don't get so bad that there is no chance of me
    fixing it. One last factor to add to the confusion, since I had
    the new clubs made in Dec' 88 I have noticed a steady degradation
    of my tee game with the worst slide in the last 6 months. The shaft
    flex was changed from regular to stiff due to my swing speed and
    I hit the short irons really well and 5 and 7 wood really well but
    everything else is turning to something smelly. So, maybe a pro
    will be able to help me with all this baloney.....................
    
    Mad Hacker

    re .18 and .9
    
    Sounds to me like your fade is the result of the ball being positioned
    too far forward. I say this because of two things you said. In .9 when
    you described your preshot routine, it sounds like you wind up with the
    ball positioned off your left instep, not your left heel. And in .18,
    when you describe the flight of your ball, THAT tells me that A. you
    swing from in to out (ball starts slightly right) and B. that the club
    head is moving LEFT from the point of contact to follow-thru (remember
    the path of the club is a curve)  I like to swing in to out too, and if
    I get the ball too far forward, I will hit the classic push/slice. So I
    work on finding the ball position which insures contact just slightly
    BEFORE the arc of the swing reaches the farthest point from my body,
    this will insure that the club head continues to move RIGHT for a
    fraction of an inch after ball-contact.  
    
    When I first realized what I was doing is when I learned about the gate
    drill, but my buddy the golf pro introduced a slight variation.......
    Thus,
    
    
           __
    
                   *    *
                     o 
                       *
    
     
           __
    
    The third element in this gate, is a tee positioned just an inch or so
    to the right and ahead of the ball. My objective was to hit thru the
    gate as before, but also to hit the tee after I contacted the ball. In
    order to finally do this one right, I wound up moving the ball back
    about one and a half ball-diameters BACK of my left heel (for a 1 wood)
    I also had to slow down my swing and really emphasize my body/hip
    turning back thru the shot. It works, man, but you may loose a little
    distance until the new position and swing mechanics kick in.  Then
    again, you may want to tell me to go stuff myself, and consult a
    pro.....

    MH, before you move the ball back and try that, I would suggest that
    you try some half and three quarter swings concentrating on relaxing
    your hands completly. However, remember to grip it so that you do not
    zip it out on the range, believe me, that is going to make your face
    very red!!! Since your ball is staring out relatively straight and then
    curving, the clubface is open at impact. If your hands are not
    releasing, the clubface might be remaining open. You can also try a full
    swing at 80% of your power.
    Another thing to check. If your head and upper body is moving towards
    the target during the downswing, it may tend to leave the clubface open
    causing the slice.
    You should check your grip as a last resort. If nothing else works try
    that. 
    Keep us posted.
    Rich

    Walt
    thanks for "fix'n my brain cells" on have clubs will travel-Steve.
    Thought it was "the Mad Hacker" ; wrong pen name!!
    Nothing like spending $100 bucks on ace for beers for the gang!
    Tomorrow is: graphite day at Dedham driving range(pls be open!)
    
    Ang.