Conference 7.286::golf

    
    Hi Pete,
    
    This subject has been discussed many times in here, mostly in reference
    to Ping look-a-likes though. You can get look-a-likes for most any 
    popular club on the market, Ping, Tommy Armour, Hogan Edge, Hogan
    Radial, Titliest DTR, etc... And the quaility is every bit as good
    as the real thing. And as you stated they are much cheaper and for the
    reasons you stated.
    
    BTW, you should have talked to K.O. or myself and you could have got
    them even cheaper than that...
    
    Just curious, how long to delivery?
    
    Enjoy
    Gene

    
    Gene, The delivery date is  about two weeks for the heads. The
    clubs should be complete by the middle of Febuary.
    
    Funny you should state I should have talked to K.O. or yourself to get
    a lesser price. K.O. is going to make the clubs for me and by your
    statement it seems that maybe Mr. O is a little high. Are you
    listening K.O. If I am being over charged you know where my first
    shot is going Kevin????????????????? How did you guess. We may have to
    renegotiate our contract seeing I have TWO sets being made.
    
    Thank you for your help Gene and I'm sure K.O. will thank you too.
    
    Pete                       

    This note sounds like it's going to get interesting...
    
    
    A bidding war !!!
    
    Gotta love it...
    
    Jim
    

    Boy this could get ugly... here's how I see it.
    
    Component costs:
    
    Head appx. 		$7.50
    Shaft      		$6.00
    Grip       		$1.25
    tape,epoxy...	$2.00
    			_____
    
    		       $16.75  material cost per club give or take 10%
    
    Now... don't forget shipping charges for the components, say $7.00
    regardless 8,9, or 10 iron set.
    
    Now you figure from here.  No matter who builds them, some SUBSTANTIAL
    time is involved.
    
    Gene, K.O., don't beat me up over pennies in my estimate, and I
    don't want to do them, I've got enough to do!

    
    Pete,
    
    Since you didn't say that it was Kevin that you went to, I ASSUMED
    that it was one if his competitors. Knowing that you are both in
    BTO, I thought you might give Kevin a try. But, since it is Kevin
    then you got the right guy and price, which as you stated is much
    cheaper than the name brand...!
    
    Gene

    
    To All Concerned
       
       I feel kind of bad here because I think I may leave the wrong
    impression. My comments about being overcharged were meant as a joke.
    Kevin has an excellent reputation and my careless comments might give
    someone the wrong impression. Kevin has spent alot of time with me
    making sure I was getting what I wanted and made several ideas on how
    to get the most for my money. 
    
       Seems I put my mouth before my brain on this one but what else is
    knew.
    
       Apologies extended.
    
    Pete
  

    Imitation clubs that fit the imitation golfer

    
    RE: .7
    
    Just what are you trying to say/imply...?
    

    Ah, Mr. Bedard nice to see you are still alive and well. I was
    woundering how long it would take you to get a cheap shot in. One of
    these days this summer I will be down and we can play a little skins
    and you can help pay for them.
    
    The Hoghead

    
    Gene, You have to understand. Fran and I have played alot of golf
    together and we a very good friends. We like to rib eachother but it is
    all in fun. You see Fran has always been very jealous of me because
    I constantly beat his pants off whenever we have a match. Through the
    years Fran has finaced my golf addiction and after a while it starts to
    get to the poor guy. He is really a meak, harmless, dumb, ugly slug
    that needs a friend and I felt bad for him and made the supreme
    sacrifice and let him be my friend. I'm sure when I get to golf heaven
    my reward will be waiting for me.........A dozen golf balls with a
    picture of Frans butt on them so I can always remember what an ass he
    is. 
    
    Pete

    RE: .4
    
    Rick I haven't read all the replies yet but I thought I'd answer this
    one first.  You are off by more than 10%.  When the new 1990 version(s)
    come out you'll get the updates.  And shipping is more than double
    you're estimate because not all things  come from the same vendor.  
    (Not that I'm trying to beat you up but I know you have an interest 
    in clubmaking and I think this is a more accurate picture of costs.)
    
    Also don't forget the cost of keeping all those records that "Uncle
    Sam" wants you to keep.  And of course the accountant who 'speaks'
    to US on your behalf and the state (Vt in my case) who wants you send
    in their sales tax receipts every quarter, and the equipment, and the 
    other expendables and......... oh screw it who wants to buy some club
    components? :-)
    
    
    
    						KO

    
    RE:.6
    
    >>                   <<< Note 847.6 by BTOVT::HOGANP >>>
    >>                           -< Foot In Mouth >-
    
    
    OK Pete now that I've seen it in writing I'll call my partner and he'll
    let you wife and kids go tonight.  They should be home for dinner. :-)
    
    
    
    						KO

    ps
    
    I forgot the CORRECT signature on notes .11 & .12
    
    
    
    KO (club maker to the HOGAN family)

    RE .11
    
    O.K.  so 20$ a club.  More importantly, yours or someone elses time
    has a value.  Nice guy that I'm sure you are, the MANY hours it
    will take to complete the 11 clubs aren't covered by your 300$ quote.
    If you were building kitchen cabinets the quote assuming material
    cost equal to that for the clubs, would be about 420$.  I don't
    think I would want to do them for 300$.
    
    Rick

    RE: 14
    
>>  the MANY hours it
>>  will take to complete the 11 clubs aren't covered by your 300$ quote.
    
    Rick,
    
    	A point well taken and worthy of merit.  Maybe someday there will
    be a way!

    Hog,
         Obviously I haven't financed your addiction enough if you are
    wasting your money on those gems. Next time your down we'll sit
    down and have a few beers together(no name of course). I also
    checked at Sky Meadow and you will not be allowed on the course
    with those weapons. I am making a collection so you can at least
    look if not play like a golfer. The check is in the mail
    
    Fran

     
    My Dear Fran,
      How are you going to feel when I empty the alligator with these
    babies. If I get down there enough this year you will eventually
    pay for these puppies. The beers you are talking about. Are those the
    ones with the white can and the black print that just says BEER on it?
    I love that stuff.
    
    Your Idol
    Pete

    Let us all know when you two have your match...
    
    I can see it now, just like Brentwood....We all stand around, make 
    side bets, be unruly and just generally have fun making fun !!
    
    Jim
    

    
    Well my new Tommy Armour copies just came in and I got to tell you these
    things look very good. I have been looking at the T.A. for 3 months now
    and the only difference in these heads and the t.a. heads is the name
    on the back. I would strongly suggest anyone looking into buying a new
    set of clubs and wants to save a couple of hundred bucks to look into
    this market. I went for it because I trusted K.O. and these heads look
    better than i expected them to. If someone wrote Tommy Armour on the
    back of these heads you would not be able to tell the differecne. The
    shafts are not in yet but when they are all put together I'll let you
    know how they feel. 
    
    Pete ( who dosen't pay for the name )

    Good move...
    
    I'll bet you end up with better clubs than the factory T.A.'s. 
    Mass production takes some of the finer points away.
    
    Rick

    Who also doesn't play like the name. BTW I picked up some noname
    balls for you, and I bet you can't wait to give those babies a ride
    
    Fran (top quality all the way) Armour.

    For some reason I'm still a skeptic on "look a-likes", I personnally
    wouldn't buy them. Would you play a look a-like ball? Why do they make
    these look a-likes look so much like the real thing? Can't these companys
    come up with their own design, I'm sure the larger company's invest big
    bucks in the design of their clubs. What company manufactures the look
    a-like heads, do you think they are investing the same kind of money? 
    
    A previous note stated that mass production could ruin a set of clubs, 
    I'm sure that all the components of these look a-likes are mass produced.
    
    I'm not attacking the club makers (you too Gene), because I think most
    of you guys would probally put more pride and quality into your work,
    I'm also not questioning the grips and shafts. What I do question is
    the club heads.
    
    Peter  

    re: last few
    
    
    as is often said and has proved correct over the years...
    
    	"you get what you pay for..."
    
    

    
    Peter,
    
    I think I read some place, if I can remember where I will post it, that
    most of the look-a-likes are made in the same foundries as the "name
    brand", or perhaps I should have stated this the other way around. Does
    anybody else recall having read anything about this.
    
    Pete, what do you think could be wrong with the look-a-likes? If
    the larger companies had a problem with this or thought there was
    something they could do about it, don't you think they would? 
    BTW, club component distributors don't just make look-a-likes,
    they do also make heads of their own design. People buy them
    because they can save some bucks and also have the advantage
    of having the clubs custom fit...
    
    Gene

    
    RE: .23
    
    Dick,
    
    You are right and as it pertains to this topic, for the extra money
    you can get the more popular name on the head of the club.... ;-)
    
    Gene

    
    According to the pro at my club, most look-a-like heads are made
    overseas and not in the same foundry as the real thing and therfore not
    by the same manufacturer.  He "implied" without actually saying that
    they are of inferior quality and that the club construction (putting
    the pieces together) certainly does not receive the kind of quality
    control that say a Hogan Edge would.  I do not understand why the
    manufacturers do not do something about these copies if this is true. 
    At any rate, I have always believed that you pay for quality and
    although a name brand doesn't guarantee that quality, your chances are
    much better than buying some no-name brand just because it's cheaper.
    
    Of course, the pro was probably doing his best to sell me his
    name-brands!!!
    
    Hal

    
    RE: .26
    
    Hal,
    
    Do you know who owns Hogan company and where there clubs are made?
    
    Gene

    
    
    Cast is cast, and 431 stainless is 431 stainless.  
    
    It's also important to think about what is the most important part
    of a golf club.  In my opinion, and in the opinion of our local
    touring pro (retired) it's not the head but the shaft.  I'm finding
    the quality of shafts used in factory name-brand clubs to be less
    than the best.  Take Ping for example... ZZ-Lite shafts are True
    Temper TT-Lite shafts and are rather inexpensive as shafts go.
    
    If you got to have name brands, and you want the quality from grip
    to head,  spend the big bucks and them spend some more to have decent
    shafts put in them.
    
    My last comment relates to swingweight.  I've taken name brand sets
    of irons, placed them on a scale and found discrepancies of 3 to
    4 swingweights between some clubs.
    
    Most of the above is why I say mass-production clubs have their
    problems.
    
    Rick
    

    re: 25
    
    	right, and the quality of your product is one of the things
    	that keep people comming back over the years. This is how
    	you establish a good name in business, offer quality products
    	and good service and you'll always have good market share.
    
    re: 27
    
    	A japanese (? sp) company owns Hogan.
    
    	Am not sure where the clubs are made, but there use to be a
    factory in Fort Worth/Dallas area. Maybe some of our Texas golfers
    out there can confirm this. Anyway there has been such a demand
    for the Edge since introduction it would not suprise me for one
    to find out that manufacturing of the Edge has moved off shore our
    overseas where labor is cheaper.  If this be the case it would
    most likely down grade any quality that Hogan clubs have been noted
    for.
    

    Re: .27
    
    No, Gene, I haven't the foggiest.  I will defer to the answer in .29
    that Hogan is owned by a Japanese Company, but do not know that.  If
    that is true, it could explain how these "overseas" copies, at least
    for Hogans get away with it.  It could be that teh Japanese mother
    company who would hold the patent, has a subsidiary which produces the
    copies.  Just a thought.
    
    Hal

    RE: .29
    
    Dick, 
    
    Very good point and true, but when you buy a Hogan, etc. you are not
    just pauing for quality, YOU ARE PAYING FOR THE NAME...
    
    RE: .30
    
    Hal,
    
    I don't know for sure where they are made, but I have heard rumor
    that it wasn't in the states any more. I do know that Hogan company
    is owned by a Japanese firm...
    
    Gene

    Gene,
    
    Please re-read what I said in .29...you establish the name through
    quality.....so YOU ARE PAYING FOR THE NAME which has been established
    through quality products.....please read what I said....
    
    dick
    

     
     Well I can see some of us feel the Look_a_Likes are a good quality
    club abd other feel they are not. Well I guess that's what makes our
    country great.
    
     I have decided to purchase the look a likes because I believe that the 
    companies that manufacture these clubs grossly overprice the product
    simply because of the name. Someone had stated the name represents the
    quality, tell that to the u.s. auto industry. I used to work in a
    packing plant and we would pack meat products fo several different
    stores, same meat different package. I later would see the product in
    the stores and laugh to see Farmer John wrapped meats charge .10 a
    pound more than the A&P brand. Why because of the name and nothing
    else. Let me give you another example of what I mean. When you buy
    clothing at the mens shop up town called "Studlies" you actually think
    you are going to pay the same price as if you bought the same item at
    Bradlees?  
    
    I can understand how you feel it took me a while to make up my mind.
    I will give an honest, objective evaluation after I have played with
    these clubs. I feel I can do that because my next door neighbor told
    me if I didn't like them he would would buy them from me for what I
    payed for them. You see his son just got a set of Ping look a likes and
    is in love with them. He is a very good golfer (handicap 3) and played
    with Pings before they were stolen he says he can't tell the
    difference. He had better shafts put on them than the stock shaft and
    loves them.
    
     Bottom line if I'm happy with the clubs and feel they are good quality
    that's all that really matters.
    
     Now for you Fran. You have made a BIG, BIG mistake here. You have
    given me a reason to kick your butt. You will never learn to let
    sleepng low hadicapers lie.
    
    Happy Trails All
    Pete 

    Didn't A&P go under a few years ago?? :-)

    re.29> 
      Does your comment about overseas manufacturing imply
    that if it isn't made in the good ol'US of A it must be junk?
    Most of the clubheads made are made by just a few manufacturers.
    They put different clubmakers names on them to satisfy the
    different makers. All of these differnt heads aren't look-alikes,
    they are the same heads without some "big-name" stamped into 
    them. There are many clone type clubs on the market which are
    cheap imitations of the real thing but there are also many club
    components available that are the same as those available to the
    major makers. There are also several fine brands of clubs that
    are made in other countries as well as several really junk brands
    that are made right here. Quality has nothing to do with geographical
    boundaries!
    THE MAD HACKER

    
    RE: .32
    
    Dick,
    
    I know what you said and what you implied. My point is that you can
    get the same quality as Hogan or Ping or ? without having to pay for
    their name being on the product. I also agree that if you build a 
    good rep. that you can and should be able to charge more for your
    product, but to the point that they do... that I question...! Part
    of that huge price tag that they get is due to all the middle men
    that need to get their cut also... Bottom line in my opinion is that
    you can get as good a quality product from an independent club maker/
    custom club fitter as you can from the big name companies for a
    fraction of the cost... (some times even better)... 
    
    Gene

    RE:33
    
           You said that you in a meat packing plant, I thought it was
    a fish market because you've got to be a real tuna to waste your
    money on artificial clubs. I thought I taught you better then that

    This may or may not be a consideration for you, but if you change clubs
    every few years, you will find that you will get much more in trade for
    name-brand than you will for look-alikes.
    
    As far as the quality of products from overseas, anyone would be remiss
    if they automatically assumed that imported products are of inferior
    quality.  847.35 makes an excellent point and I personally have been
    driving Toyota's exclusively for 12 years.
    
    One last point.  If in your mind, where some say 90% of this game
    resides, you even have the vaguest doubt as to whether a look-alike may
    be inferior to name-brand, then you would be better off buying name
    brand and the confidence that that will bring to your game.  If, on the
    other hand you are fully confident in the quality of the look-alikes,
    then save yourself the bucks!  I, personally, need EVERY advantage,
    real or imagined that I can get!
    
    Hal

    I agree, imitation golfers they are the one's with golf digest
    in the the back pocket walking down the first fairway. no wonder
    it takes six hours to play . i notice the imitation clubs before,
    a person in the group before us had a set. it was real funny seeing
    the club head go farther than the ball.
    

    RE: BUSY::EVERS
    
    >I agree, imitation golfers they are the one's with golf digest
    >in the the back pocket walking down the first fairway. no wonder
    >it takes six hours to play . i notice the imitation clubs before,
    >a person in the group before us had a set. it was real funny seeing
    >the club head go farther than the ball.
    
    Welcome to the conference (I don't think I have seen your name here
    before). PLease don't let my reply scare you off either...!
    
    I hope I am taking your reply wrong...! Are you stating that people
    that play with clubs that are other than name brand/made by an
    independent club maker are imitation golfers...? And that they
    don't know how to play...?
    
    Do you know any facts about this incident you mention with the head
    flying down the fairway? Who made it? Why you think it was "imitation"?
    
    I will wait for your reply before I say more...
    
    Thanks 
    Gene 
    
    BTW, please sign your entries...

    Re: imitation clubs for imitation golfers
    
    
    Did you ever get beat by an imitation golfer???????????????
    I know some good ones!!!!!!!!!
    
    Rick
    
    RE: BUSY::EVERS
    WELCOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    re:40
    
    Gene,
         If you were not involved in a clubmaking business through this
    file would you still be so sensitive of critical remarks being made
    on look a likes?
                           

    
    RE: .42
    
    Most likely not. If I weren't involved with them I probably wouldn't
    even know of them, but since I am and I do know that they are of good
    quality then I am certainly going to express my opinion and question
    what "facts" other people base their opinions on.
    
    Gene
    

    Well, I guess I'm one of the newest members of the "imitation golfer"
    set!!! :-) I just had a set of the Ping look alike irons made and
    am *very* pleased with the results. I've had two friends who play
    "real" Pings hit them and they see no difference in either the look
    or feel of the clubs. 
    
    Gee, maybe I can play with an imitation handicap too. Hey Ang, how
    many shots you gonna give me!! :-)
    
    Ted

    re:43
    Gene,
    
          Just for point of interest, what type of imitation clubs are
    you swinging these days?
    
    Fran

    imitation clubs or not I don't care as long as I get beat by golfers
    making good golf shots.....no matter what you use "ya stiil gota
    hit the shots".....

    re: .44
    
    Does this mean your imitations are just as illegal as the real thing...
    
    great white north golf fanatic

    Re: .47
    
    Don't know.....I haven't seen any decisions on how imitation grooves
    may improve my game!  ;-)
    
    Ted
    

    re: .48
    
    We may have to ask for a specific ruling on this one... `8*>
    
    great white north golf fanatic

      Ted...  the only shots you get are" fore"
     the flu .
              If  imitation is the  highest compliment,
    BUY THE ORIGINALS!
                A Hogan Man,
             Ang
    
      

    Ang....
    
    Hogan clubs......
    
    Hogan grip.......
    
    Hogan swing......
    
    Hogan stance.....
    
    Imitation results....Voutselas scores!!! :-)
    
    I know, I can hear you already. To be settled at Stow.......again!!!
    
    Ted

    I can attest to the fact that REAL clubs have heads break off as well. 
    I play regularly with a guy who hits Spaulding Executives and he has
    busted the head off all but two of his irons over the past two years. 
    I do'nt know how or why, since they are not mishits.
    
    Hal

    RE .52
    tell this guy, try playing on the grass instead of the cart paths 

    
    IF.........
    
    you play with imitation clubs..........
    
    
    and imitation balls.........
    
    
    with an imitation handicap...........
    
    
    imitating you favorite player.........
    
    
    
    are you playing imitation Golf ?
    

    
    BUSY::EVERS, what say ye to the questions posed to you in .40...?
    
    RE:.45
    
    Fran,
    
    I don't use "imitation" clubs. I use real clubs made from good
    quality components...! Currently I am using irons that were designed
    by one of the component companies (they aren't look-a-likes). They
    have two weight ports one in the toe and one in the heel. They are
    great clubs both in quality and results...
    
    RE:.54
    
    I am not sure if you are implying that people are or aren't imitation
    golfers... Please elaborate for us...
    
    RE: clubs breaking...
    
    I also have seen name brand clubs break, in fact the last set of clubs
    that I bought (Yamaha's) I had three clubs break, they replaced the set
    and I had the same problem with the new set...!
    
    Gene

    
     Hey fellow noters my wife and I had a baby girl last night. She looks just
    like me. Hey does that make her a Look-a-Like? Don't say it Fran.
    
    This note has lost it's objectivity. I will nolonger reply. 
    
    See you all in another note.
    
    Pete
    

Re: -.1

Title:  2010 LPGA CHAMPION

Well I guess our daughters will be playing head to head for that title.  I just
pray she has my short game & drives like my wife.  If so I've already promised
that I'll quit my job & caddy on tour for her.

Larry
                                                                                                              10 lines

    Elaboration on my entry .54
    Gene
    
    Sorry, It was just a bit of humour, which obviously didn't go down
    very well.
                
    I just found it amusing to hear people talk of 'Imitition' Clubs,
    Balls etc, so added my thoughts. I'm probably the last person to
    accuse any one being an 'Imitation' player, as an awfull lot of the
    notes I read are a bit too technical for me. But, I still read them
    and tuck the info away, because you never know ......
                                     
    I do apologise If any offence was taken, but there was certainly
    none implied. As I said, I just found some of the comments amusing.
    
    					Regards,
    					and Apologies,
    					Wayne
    
    

    RE: .1
    
    It was stated that look - a -likes are available for most popular
    clubs on the market ala Hogan Edge, etc.  I'm curious as to where
    these heads can be obtained.  I have seen a couple in Golfsmith's
    catalog but I havn't recognized any of the Hogan or Ping models
    there.  Possibly, I missed them?  Also, does your note imply that
    they are available as forgings or just as castings.  I've done some
    repair and grips and would like to experiment with some different
    heads & shafts and balance.
    
    henry blackburn

    
    Henry,
    
     The guy you want to talk to about all the ins and outs would be Kevin
    Obrien. 

    Golfsmith has Ping type Tour Model heads.  They don't have an Edge
    clone.  I don't know of a forged copy out YET.
    
    Scan this file and get some distributor numbers and send for other
    catalogs.  
    
    The notes under "repair" may help.
    
    Rick

For what it's worth, I just received my 1990 Dynacraft catalog and 
they've got investment cast, soft carbon steel heads for sale that 
look just like Hogan Edge's.

    the BIG thing this year is going to be "CAST with the FEEL of Forged"
    
    cast club makers have been experimenting with softer steel and will
    soon announce new models that are cast p.w. clubs with the feel
    of forged due to the softer steel......and the marketing people
    will win another one....:-)
    
    

    I am looking to buy a new set of clubs this year and take my golf a
    little more seriously. I was wondering if anyone could recommend a 
    custom club maker in the Denver area that I could talk to about these
    look-a-likes. I'm always interested in saving a few dollars if the
    quality is comparable. I would also like to say that I read quite a few
    notes files nad this one is by far the best "moderated"!
    
    Randy in sunny Denver
    

    I have yet to see a forged Edge look a like.  There are indeed some
    castings with "mallable" stainless, and casting with carbon steel.
    There are some forged perimeter weighted blades available (Toski has
    at least 1) and some other companies but the names escape me now.
    Their catalogs however are NOT available to the general public nor
    can a "hobbiest" (their definition not mine) get them.  If you really
    want to see these clubs you'll have to go to see your PGA professional
    or a qualified club maker/distributer.  Golf(smith,works),
    Dynacraft............. do have have access to these clubs.
    
    
    
    						KO

>>	Golf(smith,works),
>>      Dynacraft............. do have have access to these clubs.
    
    
    	Sorry about this it should read DO NOT have access to these clubs.
    
    Thanks for pointing that out Gene.  I've caused enough trouble with
    topic already.  (pete it's really all your fault but I'm big enough to 
    take the heat for you!)
    
    
    					KO
    
    

    Ram also has a new Laser something or other that is a forged P.W.
    club.  We'll probably see more in the next year.
    
    Rick

    re: .67
    
    see 825.58...
    

re: .64 Randy,

I bought some Ping copy irons from World Golf Center in Colorado Springs 2 years
ago. I'm quite happy with them so far. The brand is Precision Made - Series VI
Custom, and they cost $189 for 3-pw, and about $30 for the sand wedge.

The store is east of Academy Boulevard, but I can't remember the street it's on.
They have a driving range, and will let you take as many different brands out to
try them, plus they have a swing analysis machine in the basement which they'll
put you on to get an idea of the sort of club to send you out with.

At the time it was a toss up between a set of Lynx Parallax, and the Precision
Made clubs, but at half the cost, I went for the Ping copies. It meant I could
spend more money on titanium shafted metal woods.

If you can't find the address, send some mail to Glenn Geiger (CSC32::G_GEIGER)
who will be able to give you the address.

Lindsay