Conference 7.286::golf

    
    Harold,
    
    Do you only push shots right with your driver? If so you could try
    having the specs checked on your 3 wood also and see if they differ
    (shaft flex and swingweight). C9 is on the light side for a mans
    driver to start with. There are many notes in here already dealing
    with club specs and thier effects of ball flight, a directory search
    using keywords or /title=swingweight, title=shaft, title=flex should
    turn up some info that might help answer your questions...
    
    Good luck
    Gene

    
    
    A tip from a long time golfer - FORGET all about swingweights,shafts
    grooves,etc,etc. It is useful to have the lofts on your clubs checked
    once a year, pre-season, but the rest is spaghetti.
    
    To play better golf you need to practice and enjoy - try and forget
    all the technical stuff and concentrate on keeping your head behind
    the ball at impact and staying with the shot.
    
    JH.

    
    Hi JH,
    
    Are you also saying that YOU can play equally as well with clubs with
    any flex shaft, any swingweight, any length, and lie, etc...?
    
    I do agree totally with practice and that you should not be thinking 
    about the techincal aspects when you are on the course. But, I in no
    way agree that a person should not take ALL club variables into account
    when buying clubs or when there is a problem with thier game. A lot of
    times problems with a persons game is due to a fundamental swing
    problem, but there are also many people that could benifit greatly from
    properly fit clubs...
    
    Gene (who_is_also_a_long_time_golfer)

    
>    A tip from a long time golfer - FORGET all about swingweights,shafts
>    grooves,etc,etc. It is useful to have the lofts on your clubs checked
>    once a year, pre-season, but the rest is spaghetti.
    
        Why would you have the loft on your clubs checked every year?
     Wouldn't they stay the same, assuming you don't buy a new set 
     every year?  And I have to disagree with you on forgetting all
     the rest.  It is important to play with equipment that fits you
     and your swing.  Would you feel comfortable in a suit that was
     three sizes to small?  If you feel uncomfortable with all the
     variables that make up a club spec, see a professional or a
     custom club maker and let them worry about the specs for you.
    
    -rick
        

    Speaking as an inexperienced (dare I say it) golfer, I have to agree
    that you shous forget all this swing weight, stiffness, what colour
    balls you use (:-), stuff. It's like the 80/20 rule in business. 80% of
    your business comes from 20% of your clients. Concentrate first on the
    20%, i.e. basic techniques, to get 80% return. Then worry about the
    rest for fine tuning. I would suggest however, that the ratio would be
    nearer 95/5.
    
    You certainly should get clubs to suit you, and you certainly should
    get advice from a professional. Let him/her worry about the
    swing-weights t al if necessary. My guess is that they'd look at your
    swing first.
    
    Now for the contentious bit !! My professional tells me that Americans
    tend to be far too involved in all these twiddly little things (e.g.
    swing-weight) for their own good. You should get a *decent* set of
    clubs, and focus on technique. I do not pass judgement on this
    statement, merely pass it on for interest, NOT comment !!!
    
    Colin

    HAVING READ ALL REPLIES TO-DATE,I FEEL I MUST RE-EMPHASISE THE POINT
    MADE BY JH...
    
    PRACTICE(LOTS OF IT),ACTION THROUGH THE BALL,SELF BELIEF MAKE FOR
    GOOD GOLF....
    
    KEEP YOUR HEAD DOWN AND BELIEVE IT CAN HAPPEN......
    
    HOW MANY GOLFERS OUT THERE KNOW WHAT LENGTH THEIR CLUBS ARE(GOLF
    OF COURSE)??????
    
    RR

    Maybe forged clubs need loft/lie checked... I think you would break
    a cast club before you would bend it noticably.  Most likely the
    shaft would bend before anything else anyhow.
    
    Try playing 3 holes with a lightweight c5 or so set of irons and
    then 3 with d2's... instant disaster.  Or hit a c6 graphite soft
    flex driver then switch to a d2 x-shaft... there is a difference!!!
    
    Rick

    RE:.6
    
    Mens modern standard + 3/8 inch!!!!

    RE: .6
    
    HI RR,
    
    It appears that you are from the same "NODE of thought" as JH... ;-)
    BTW, please no NOT use all capital letters, unless you WERE trying
    to SHOUT...!
    
    I would like to elaborate a little on what I said in my earlier reply.
    
    I am in TOTAL agreement that unless you have a sound fundamental game
    and swing, clubs are not going to make much difference... BUT, I will 
    stand behind the following statement 100%....! If you have a sound game
    and swing then a set of clubs fit to you either by a pro or a club
    maker OR by you trying clubs with various specs (as Rick F. mentioned
    in a reply here) to find out what gives you the best results, can
    without a doubt help your game...!!! If you doubt this, try it...!
    If the various specs on a club didn't have any bearing on the play of
    the game all clubs would be made exactly the same or without any regard
    as to what the specs are when they are made.
    
    JH, what say ye to the questions posed to you in earlier replies?
    I am very curious what your thoughts are.
    
    Gene (whose_game_has_impooved_a_lot_over_the_last_two_seasons_due_to_
    	  PRACTICE_AND_to_CLUBS_THAT_ARE_FIT_TO_ME_AND_MY_GAME)[also still
    	  have a lot of impooving to go...]
    

    
    RE: .7
    
    Rick,
    
    Cast irons can be bent, but most manufacturers recommend
    that they not be bent more than 2 degrees...
    
    Gene

    re .2 
    When I first started playing, most of the clubs in my bag were
    different. Only the 5, 7, and 9 irons were from the same set 
    and the 3-wood and driver from the same set. My technique was
    so bad that it didn,t really matter what I used in terms of
    flex, swingweight, etc. I couldn,t have told the difference
    between them anyway. Now that I have developed a pretty solid
    swing I have invested in a set of matched irons and woods that
    fits my swing speed, body size, and playing style. I don,t feel
    this was a waste of my time as I took 20 strokes of my handicap
    last year, won two tournaments in my golf club and generally had
    a great time playing. When Bobby Jones clubs were measured it was
    found that all his clubs matched except the 8-iron. He commented
    that he had never liked that club because it just never felt right!
      Yes, we have an enjoyment for the technical side of the game!!!
    I also love to play!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    THE MAD HACKER
    

    You're right Gene it is quite a topic.
    
    As a golfer (on the course) I could care less about specs.  All I
    really care about is solid contact.  Of course later on when I think
    about the round and improving my game (what golfer doesn't) the
    question of ability and club specs comes to mind.
    
    As a club maker club specs are of the utmost importance to me.  As has
    been said in some of the replies to this note, if the club is not
    suited to the physical capabilities of the player, they ain't worth a 
    tinkers dam.
    
    As a student of the game and the golf swing the thing that makes me
    laugh is the attitude that practice and  sound fundamentals will make
    you a good golfer.  Now I practice and I work real hard on my swing and
    technique, but there are people that are physically incabable of making
    the perfect golf swing.  Should those people give up the game or be
    doomed to a life of triple figures?  Should a new player who does not
    have the timing or the skill (yet) suffer with endless ground balls?
    No sir!  Golf is supposed to be fun.  If 'doctoring' your equipment
    WITHIN THE GUIDLINES OF THE RULES allows you to improve your game and the
    fun/enjoyment of the game then go for it.  
    
    Now maybe what was intended is that the player should not be concerned 
    with the specs of his/her clubs but that they really are important.  I
    will agree with that.  But of what is intended is that a player should
    be able to grap any club, step up on the tee and hit it pure is as
    close to lunacy as one can get.
    
    Now back to the base question:  If your driver has those specs and you
    hit the ball to the right, there are a couple of things to look at.
    First see a teaching pro.  You maybe "bailing out" in an effort to NOT
    hit it right.  The other thing is the face angle of the driver.  If we
    assume that he loft is 11� (standard) and the face is 2� open (also
    standard) the perhaps a 12� loft 0� square face would help.  Or perhaps
    a softer shaft or..............  Just make sure that your swing with
    the driver is not different that with the rest of your clubs first. 
    That aside see a qualified club fitter for advice.
    
    
    
    						KO

    
]    As a student of the game and the golf swing the thing that makes me
]    laugh is the attitude that practice and  sound fundamentals will make
]    you a good golfer.


	there are different degrees of students of the game....as history
has proved that SOUND FUNDAMENTALS and PRACTICE will make a person as good
a golfer as that persons capabilities will allow.

	anyone that denies this is only fooling themselves....


my $.02 worth

>]    As a student of the game and the golf swing the thing that makes me
>]    laugh is the attitude that practice and  sound fundamentals will make
>]    you a good golfer.
>
>	there are different degrees of students of the game....as history
>has proved that SOUND FUNDAMENTALS and PRACTICE will make a person as good
>a golfer as that persons capabilities will allow.

Actually you are both right.  (Collectively not individually).

Sound fundamentals and practice have to be matched with your equipment.  After
all if equipment didn't matter when they went from wooden to steel shafts there
would have been no difference in what a sound swing was for example. 

If a sound swing didn't matter then any fool with a set of Ping Eye 2's could
head out on tour.

Larry

    
    It seems I have hit a nerve!!! 
    
    I will however respond - in order to play golf you must be able
    to swing the golf club. I agree it has to be a sensible length
    and weight - it does not need to be a D2/C9 carbon,flexi,closed
    face,sqare grooved club (SPAGHETTI).
    
    In order to defend this statement I will simply point to the fact
    that in the 1920's and 30's the game was played with clubs that
    were not very technically advanced ( not a D2 to be seen) - the
    swing was the key. I would say this is still the case. You can
    have a club tailor made to suit your every need but if you cannot
    swing then you will not hit the ball correctly. Whereas if you 
    have a good swing/tempo then you can play golf with any clubs, it
    does not matter what size/weight they are - this is why clubs are
    mass produced.
    
    I pose a question - imagine the golfer with every club in his bag
    tailor made by a professional, with all the correct shaft flexes
    and weights - if he has to manufacture a shot ( punch it under bushes,
    fade it round a corner,etc), what does he do? He does not have a
    club with an open/closed face, or a short shaft!!! Does he ask his
    pro to make him one - or does he ask to be shown what alterations
    to make to his SWING to enable him to hit the shot????
    
    JH - a long time golfer who is not interested in the technical guff,
    but who can manufacture shots.

    
>    It seems I have hit a nerve!!! 
 
	It might seem that you have...
   
>    I will however respond - in order to play golf you must be able
>    to swing the golf club. I agree it has to be a sensible length
>    and weight - it does not need to be a D2/C9 carbon,flexi,closed
>    face,sqare grooved club (SPAGHETTI).
 
	Thanks for taking time to respond. I agree that the clubs do not
	HAVE to be a certain any thing, but it sure does help a hell
	of a lot...!
   
>    In order to defend this statement I will simply point to the fact
>    that in the 1920's and 30's the game was played with clubs that
>    were not very technically advanced ( not a D2 to be seen) - the
>    swing was the key. I would say this is still the case. You can
>    have a club tailor made to suit your every need but if you cannot
>    swing then you will not hit the ball correctly. Whereas if you 
>    have a good swing/tempo then you can play golf with any clubs, it
>    does not matter what size/weight they are - this is why clubs are
>    mass produced.
 
	Even back in the 20's and 30's they did their best to make
	all the clubs in a set feel the same. Yup, you do have to
	be able to swing/play well, I don't think anybody is in
	disagreement there. You might be able to play golf with
	any clubs, but the point is that you can play better with
	clubs that are fit to you. I pose the question to you again
	JH, do you think you can play equally as well with and clubs?
	Do you think you can play with a set of clubs that has all
	different flex shafts, all different swingweights, all different
	lengths (and play well with them)?... Even though clubs are
	mass produced they are not all made with the same shaft/swingweight
	etc. so that you can still buy clubs off the rack that vary
	in specs from one set to another. Clubs even though they
	are mass produced do have the same specs through a given set.
	And most of the better club makers allow you to be "CUSTOM
	FIT" for their clubs...
   
>    I pose a question - imagine the golfer with every club in his bag
>    tailor made by a professional, with all the correct shaft flexes
>    and weights - if he has to manufacture a shot ( punch it under bushes,
>    fade it round a corner,etc), what does he do? He does not have a
>    club with an open/closed face, or a short shaft!!! Does he ask his
>    pro to make him one - or does he ask to be shown what alterations
>    to make to his SWING to enable him to hit the shot????
 
	Your point is correct and again I agree that you have to have
	a good swing, know how to make those difficult shots when in
	trouble, be able to move the ball, etc. to be a good all around
	player. But again clubs fit to you WILL HELP...
   
>    JH - a long time golfer who is not interested in the technical guff,
>    but who can manufacture shots.

	JH, a couple more questions for you. What kind of clubs do you
	use? Why did you buy them instead of any others? How long have
	you used them? And what about Ricks question about having the
	loft checked each season? And why have them checked at all, isn't
	that just more spagetti?

	JH, please don't feel that you are being jumped on. I think
	this makes for a good discussion and I for one like to hear
	what other peoples thoughts are and understand why they feel
	a certain way...

	Thanks for your replies and I look forward to hearing more
	from you...

	Gene

    
    Hi Gene JH,
    
    	My feelings about club spec's and sound fundamentals are simple.
    
    	If you swing a pitching wedge accurately, and with consistent
    results. Then... loose your accuracy/consistency as you progress toward
    the longer clubs ( even though you make the necessary adjustments to 
    maintain proper contact for the given club ), then I feel the clubs
    are making your game more difficult. If you attain a slice, for no
    apparent reason when hitting a 3 iron... and yet when hitting a 7
    you hit it straight? You'll find yourself adjusting your swing per
    club. It's then that things like shaft flex is important... where
    you DO have a good swing, but the club spec's burn you. 
    
    	This happened to me, and it wasn't till I went to stiff shafts
    before I could use "one" swing through out my bag.
    
    	The Pros are dealing with BIG bucks and to win, need to be 
    extremely accurate/ extremely often. They are constantly working
    with club spec's to fine tune their shots... like lead tape 
    for instance. Perimeter weighted clubs making the game easier, may be 
    a large reason golf has been booming??
    
    If sound fundamentals and a good swing DON't work...  who do you call?
    Ghost busters??? ;)
    
    	Walt
    
    

    RE: .13
    
>>	there are different degrees of students of the game....as history
>>  has proved that SOUND FUNDAMENTALS and PRACTICE will make a person as good
>>  a golfer as that persons capabilities will allow.
    
    I think you might have missed the point.  To be more explicit, I was
    trying to say that having equipment suited to your game and/or swing will
    do more to improve your game than trying to change your swing with
    practice.  I was not advocating not making your best swing or not
    practicing (within reason), this however is not necessarily going to
    help you break 100.
    
    
    						KO
    

    
    My opinion is simple:
    
                    practice as often as you can with the best equipment 
                    you can afford 
    
    Pete ( K.I.S.S.) keep it simple stupid...... Now I'm not calling anyone
    stupid so please no nastygrams

    
]    trying to say that having equipment suited to your game and/or swing will
]    do more to improve your game than trying to change your swing with
]    practice.



	this is what a lot of club manufactures would like us all
to think but I for one disagree....everyone I ever talked to who was told
this and got clubs because of it did infact improve....but EVERYONE had
also started practicing more "to get use to my new clubs" so I feel it
is like the old chicken and egg theory...which came first or in the case
of golf was the improvement due to "clubs suited/fitted/whatever" to the 
persons game OR was it due to more practicing???

	I for one still maintain that history shows improvement comes
more with practice of sound fundamentals than with equipment changes....

but the rub is, and often missed, PRACTICE SOUND FUNDAMENTALS...all of
us who do practice usually are practicing what "we" consider fundamental
which may not even be correct...so we end up practicing "our own bad habits"

    

    I got better at tying my shoes when I was about 6-8 years old cause
    my parents got me new shoes that we're better fitted to me..the
    shoes we're loafers.
    
    
    I got better at tying my shoes when I was about 6-8 years old cause
    I keep tying them over and over two or three times a day until I
    could tie them without thinking about it. It became "mussle memory"
    
    
    
    :-)

    
    When I was six - eight years old I was trying to tie my shoes but was
    having trouble and became very frustated. My father came over to see
    what the problem was and realized the laces were to short. He replaced
    the lace with longer ones and I tied my shoes without any frutration. I
     knew how to tie my shoes but I had the wrong length laces.
    
    Pete 

       .21 GORDON
    
    ..and  your  parents bought you  "Hogan's  5  fundamentals of tying
    
    shoe laces " since loafers  were the easy way out ! Good  one!
                                                       Ang
    

    
    
     Ang, I don't get it.

    re: .22
    
    	only then could you obtain "mussle memory"...

    re .25
    
    Which brings me back to my original reply. Practice as often as
    possible with the best equipment you can afford.
    
    I guess this means we are in agreement. So there you guys see how easy
    it is. What's the big deal.
    
    Well off to Columbia and straighten that situation out.
    
    Pete

    
    
    1)	Yes I could play with any clubs. If you have a good swing
    	you should be able to play even with junior/lady clubs.
    
    2)	I use Ram Tour Grind, which I got from my father - I never
        bought them. I have a Wilson Persimmon driver which I bought
    	because it was nice and shiny and with a 25 pound discount.
    	I have a wilson 1200 Metal 3 wood which I bought because it
    	was second hand and only 30 pounds. I have no idea what shaft
    	flex,length,etc any of these clubs have - but I have played
    	off 5 for the last 10 yrs and was down to 2 as a junior (with
    	a mix/match set of old clubs).
    
    3)	Lofts - since the clubhead impacts the ball and the ground with
    	great force, they may tend to move slightly - this is not
    	technical just common sense.
    
    	Signing off - JH.
    
    	PS - many golfers are accused of being boring when they talk
    	about "that missed putt" or "that hooked drive", however this
    	has nothing on swingweights,shafts,grooves,grips,..........
    	SPAGHETTI!

    
>    1)	Yes I could play with any clubs. If you have a good swing
>    	you should be able to play even with junior/lady clubs.
    
 	Granted, but you missed the point. Can you play equally as well
    	with any clubs...?
    
    
    	Gene

I'm getting bored of this less filling/tases great discussion.  It's too bad 
that it's winter in New England.  Otherwise I would say let's settle it 
empirically.  You name the course, I'll provide the clubs.  Of course full 
handicaps apply.  After all those clubs don't make any difference.

Larry

    re: .30
    
    Now Larry has the right idea....these notes are great for off season
    but we can all see where some of our "less filling taste great"
    discussions are really showing our frustrations over not being able
    to get out and enjoy the outdoors and that great game we all love..
    
    We could never settle anything as far as our discussions go but
    it sure as hell would be nice to get out and play some golf under
    good conditions...oh well...only two more months...ugh!!
    

    	A good player with a good swing, can probably play well with
    most any clubs in decent condition.  However, he/she will not play
    their absolute best, without playing with a set of clubs that they
    are comfortable, and used to swinging.  
    	The problem is, how did they get to be a good player with a
    good swing?  It certainly wasn't because some golf outfitter fit
    him/her with a custom-made, custom-fit set of $2000.00 golf clubs.
    It was simply because of desire to learn how to play golf, combined
    with the ability of the player and the motivation to practice what
    they learn.  
    	Basiclly what I'm saying is, custom-fit clubs will help you
    to score better.  But practice and learning a good swing, will do
    more for you anyday.  
    	If you take a 30 year old person who has never driven a car
    before, put them in a Cadilac, have them drive it, and then put
    them in an Escort and have them drive it, will they suffer a decrease
    in their ability to drive, because of the equipment?  I think not.
    
    Beak

    
    
    
    Pete
    .. I thought I  felt some "symbolism" in the  "tie the shoes"
    (difficult clubs to hit) vs. loafers(easy clubs to hit ie PW,
    not tour head) but if you stayed with the difficult "and learned
    how too hit tougher" clubs  you end up with a better swing.
    OR  tied dress shoes look better than loafers even though you have
    to work harder at it.      ???   Did I get it?
                  Ang
    

    
    Ang My Main Man,
    
     The point is, you need the best of both worlds in order to be the best
    you can be. The longer shoe laces = the right clubs
                Practice practice     = muscle memory
    
    Pete who will not reply to this note again......... I promise.  

    This has been wonderful !!! It is good to have everyone
    get a little excited again and have some exchange going
    here in the notesfile. I think we are all right !! It is
    practice and proper equipment, but if you have enough
    talent you can play with a Coke bottle !! (just ask Trevino!)
    
    THE MAD HACKER

    Yea but I've found some clubs even Trevino couldn't hit.  Prettiest
    driver you ever saw.  Slice city... even the Pro was scratching
    his head.
    
    Rick

    
    I am glad I injected a little SPICE into this discussion, however
    some of the phrases used still have me confused.
    
    Bye for now!
    
    JH

    JH,
    This is the Mad Hacker (a.k.a. Jim Cooper). What might
    some of those confusing phrases be ? Maybe we use different
    terms for the same things, that might make for an interest-
    ing topic!
    THE MAD HACKER

    Come on, chaps !
    
    Lots of good axes have got grinded here but nobody has actually
    got round to andwering the poor blighter who raised the base note.
    
    Gene got closest with his .1 reply but I must admit that I get turned
    off by being told to go and search old topics.
    
    Can any of you cogniscenti give us a straight reply to what all
    these strange symbols mean (e.g. C9) ?   You may already have done
    it befor in an earlier topic but I, for one, would appreciate a
    reprise.
    
    Ta, M.
    

    Back to the original question...
    
    In my OPINION, you already have a light driver.  A stiffer shaft
    MAY help.  Also a lower lofted driver attenuates whatever ugliness
    you have on your shot.  If you are using a standard 11 degree driver
    fine, if you have something with less loft, I'd try an 11.  C9 is
    not heavy for a driver, the FOUR I use range from C9 to D3.  12
    ounces isn't heavy for total weight either.  Mine range around 13.
    
    Rick

	RE: .39
        
    >Gene got closest with his .1 reply but I must admit that I get turned
    >off by being told to go and search old topics.
    
    	Ta, would you prefer that we just delete all old notes and replies?
    	What is the point of having this wealth of info being stored here
    	if nobody wants to do a little looking to find it...?!
    
    	What are other peoples thoughts on this matter? Should I/we just
    	go ahead and delete every entry earlier than Jan. 1st, 1990? or
    	leave things as they are and try help direct people to the info?
    	OR...?
    
    	While I'm on the subject of conference issues, should I continue
    	to try to keep all related topics in one note? or just let people
    	start endless numbers of notes dealing with topics that there is
    	allready a note for?
    	
   > Can any of you cogniscenti give us a straight reply to what all
   > these strange symbols mean (e.g. C9) ?   You may already have done
   > it befor in an earlier topic but I, for one, would appreciate a
   > reprise.
    
    C9 is a measurement of weight using a scale designed specificly for
    swingweighing golf clubs. The scale uses a  14" fulcrum. The butt
    end of the club is on the scale and there is a fulcrum 14" from
    the butt, the rest of the club hangs out from there. (this is
    tough to explane). The scale has letters from A to E for the major
    graduations and each of these is divided into 10 equal units. "A"
    is the lightest weight "E" the heaviest. The scale would read from
    A0, A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, A9, B0-B9, C0-C9, D0-D9, E0-E9.
    The more weight that is added to the head end of the club the heavier
    the swingweight. The more weight added to the butt end the lighter
    the swingweight.		
    
    head			   grip
     |				    V		
     V				 _________	
    ____________________________|_________| <------- club
    \/		 ^			  |
    		_^________________________|
    		|         SCALE	          |
    		---------------------------
    
    	Hope this explanation helped rather than hindered...!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    	Gene

    Gene, also, isn,t swingweight a relationship of how heavy the
    head "feels" on the end of the shaft and not just how much a club
    weighs? A club doesn't necessarily have to be light in weight to
    have a light swingweight or vice-versa or am I totally screwed 
    up !!!!!
    THE MAD HACKER

    
    Replies dealing with conference issues have been moved to note #1...
    
    	

    RE: .41 and .42
    
    The swingweight is as Gene described.  One detail that he left out is
    the the swingweight is the sum of the moments about the fulcrum.  So
    if you take the moment from the fulcrum to the butt end (-x in oz)
    plus from the fulcrum to the CG of the club plus to the sole of the
    head the resultant inch ounces are then translated in the "swingweight"
    scale.  The letter/number designation is easier to remember (in theory)
    
    So the swingweight is really how the club is balanced about this
    fulcrum and bears very little resemblence to the weight of the club.
    So is the swingweight a measure of the clubhead feel?  Yes and no MH
    it depends upon how you get there.  It's a function of the type of
    grip, shaft (weight and length) and perhaps the phase of the moon. :-)
    
    
    						KO

    
    Hi Everyone,
    
    	I have a couple questions concerning swingweight... maybe someone
    	can help answer?
    
    
    	1. If you tend to swing slow, would you benifit from a heavier
    	   swingweight?  In other words; If you hit a smooth 7 iron
    	   150 yards with say a C9 swingweight... would changing to
    	   a D4 swingweight add yardage? If so , would the extra yardage
    	   be significant?
    
    	2. Should you swingweight all your clubs the same? Irons + Woods?
    
    	3. How does a manufacturer swingweight shorter clubs vs longer
    	   clubs? Is the actual clubhead weighted differently depending
    	   on the desired swignweight?
    
    	4. Do swingweights vary (a lot) at the Pro level? Or have the
    	   Pro's found (as an example) D0-D2 swingweight to be most
    	   popular?
    
    
    	thanks for any info ;
    
    	think warm ;)
    
    	Walta

    I'll take a shot one at a time:
    
    Distance is a product of clubhead speed. If you can generate the same
    clubhead speed with a D4 as you could with a C9 the distance will be
    the same. If you can generate more clubhead speed you may gain some
    distance. Conversly, if your clubhead speed is slower you will lose
    distance. 
    
    You need to maximize clubhead speed. Experimenting with different
    swingweights is the way to go. If you are using a C9 club, going to a
    D2 may help but a D4 may hurt.
    
    All clubs should be the same swingweight. Same principal as above.
    
    Shorter clubs are swingweight adjusted by adding weight to the head of
    the club. e.g lead powder, lead rod or heavier clubhead. Keep in mind a
    dollar bill placed on the clubhead when measuring will add almost a
    half a swingweight. 
    
    The pros vary from D0 to E?. I read Nicklaus uses a D0. Again whatever
    can be accomplished in clubhead speed.
    
    Hope this helps.
    Ken

    You also need to be able to swing a D4 club wih the same control as a
    C9 club.  If you have fairly strong hands, you should be able to handle
    the higher swingweights.  If your clubs are too heavy or the swing
    weight is too high, you may find yourself using a death grip toward the
    end of a round as your hands and wrists get tired.
    
    Steve

    After reading many articles over the last few years concerning
    pros and their clubs, I have noticed that most pros use a Driver
    with a much higher swingweight than the rest of their set. Most
    irons are in the d2-4 range but their drivers are almost always
    in the E range. I have two set of clubs, one is d-0 and the other
    is d-2. The d-2 has much more noticeable head weight and I have
    trouble generating the same clubhead speed as the d-0 set. However,
    I like feeling the clubhead more so have gotten used to the slight
    loss of distance. I tried a Driver that was weighted at E-4 and
    could hardly control it, I guess you need really strong forearms
    to swing a club like that.
    
    Mad Hacker

    
    Hi Ken ,Steve and Mad Hacker
    
    
    	Thanks for the info.
    
    	Ken- It surprised me to hear that a heavier swingweight doesn't
    	bring more distance... but there's no arguing physiscs !
        
    	Steve- What you said about needing a death grip on the back nine
    	because of a heavy swingweight is very true. That was the main
    	reason why I dropped to D0... By the 15th hole I was loosing the
    	clubhead at the top of my swing, which caused me to grip tighter,
    	which caused a lack of distance/direction.
    
    	Mad HAcker- I wonder why the Pro's would swingweight the driver
    	so heavy? You'd think they'd want the control and clubhead speed
    	with the driver? That's surprising.
    
    	thanks again,
    
    	Walta
    	

    
    Re: last few
    
    Actually, if you look at the formula, which I don't remember
    completely.  If you can increase the mass of the club head and
    maintain the same swing weight you will have some positive 
    increase in the amount of energy put on the ball.
    
    However, velocity is squared in the formula, so increases in 
    velocity make bigger changes. 
    
    Shane
    

     If you re-check "Pro Specs," I doubt if more than a handfull are in
    the "E" range with drivers. In all due (or undue) respect, where did
    you get this info ?
    
    Dubiously,
    
    Jack

    Hi Jack-
      Hey, they don't print articles about all the pro's !! It would be
    interesting to see a chart though much like earnings charts, showing
    what type of specs the pro's all use. Probably as varied as us
    amateurs. I know that Bob Charles uses about 4 different shaft types
    and swingweights throughout his set, the Wadkins brothers use heavy
    drivers (or did), Johnny Miller used to use an E-7 driver. Jees Jack
    give me a break, I didn't say that every player on tour carried a
    sledgehammer for a driver !! 8^)
    
    Mad Hacker

    I tend to agree with Jack in that I suspect that any pro in the
    E range is the exception/minority/etc. and not the norm...

    
    I won a driver a couple of years ago. Never could hit it. 
    I have taken to the range on numerous occasions, just never
    felt comfortable, always the same result. Spend the last half
    of the bucket hiiting my other clubs just to make sure I could
    hit the ball at all. So yesterday I decided that I was going to 
    do something about it. Swap it for a new putter ( something has to
    help), or change the head, something, that club is not going to collect
    any more dust in my closet. So After voting this morning, I stopped
    by the local club to talk to the pro. I suggested that I was interested
    in swapping the head. He says " so you've finally had enough". Then he
    shows me a few other heads and says that they are all pretty much
    the same, so I resond that it's not so much the physical shape of the
    head, but the weight or something. He says, you feel comfortable
    with the cleveland right, I say yes, it's a great club. So we 
    go into the back room and check out the two clubs. Sure enough, 
    the cleveland is d7 and the bridgestone is d0. both have adilla (sp)
    hm-40 shafts. So a little tape and he sends me home. He could have 
    sold me a new club easy, but told me to try out the new swing weight.
    so tomorrow we'll know. A friend has a 7:30 tee time, so I'll get there
    extra early to check it out. I'll post the results...
    
    If you know the swing weight of ping eye 2 irons, please
    post if for me, i'm just curious. I also plan on replacing
    the shafts this year. I just ordered the golfsmith catalog.
    
    Dave

    
    
    Hi Dave,
    
    	The Ping Eye II's standard length are roughly D0... I say
    	roughly because it appears to measure a little heavier for
    	the shorter irons, and a little lighter for the longer irons...
    	with the middle irons at D0.
    
    	the wedge through 8 were around D0.5 to D1
    
    	the 7 through 4 were D0 to C9.5
    
    	with the 3 through 1 C9.5 to C9
    
    	Walta

    
    Hi, 
     
        Does anyone know the swingweight of the MacGregor RD - Reverse Draft
        irons ?
    
    Thanks,
    Pat.
    

    Every Ping Eye 2 that I have put on my scale checks out to c-7 with the
    standard Ping grip.  After doing a regrip they usually change to a c-9.
    
    I think that the reason for the change is that the new grips are
    normally half cord and have a higher cork content.  This means a
    lighter grip end of the club.  Therefore, the higher swing weight
    result.
    
    I think the fact that the old grips are probably saturated with some
    body oil contributes also.
    
    jr

    The measured SW of a Ping Eye II iron is C7-C9. The info comes from a
    recent issue of Golf Shop Operations which list every club made with
    the SW, loft and lie. 
    
    The RD irons measured at D0.
    
    If you want interesting info check the loft. The difference in loft of 
    the 5 iron was as much as three degrees. Calloway being the "strongest"
    at 26 degrees. The average is around 29. 26 degrees is closer to a 4
    iron. Confirms the "I'm hitting these clubs a full club longer" theory.
    
    If anyone wants more on Loft, Lie and SW keep posting them here.
    
    Ken

    Re: a couple back.
    
    Your pro must have put a WAD of lead tape on that driver to move it 7
    points. just to move it one point takes more lead tape than the average
    person wants to see on the head of his club. 
    
    I couldn't imagine 7 points of tape.
    
    As long as it works.
    
    Ken

    
    A lot of tape went onto the club. I am not sure if I
    will keep it or not. I have only been able to get to
    the range once with it, but it definitely felt better.
    
    Luckily, I have a 13 degree 3 metal that works from
    the fairway and the tee. Well, most of the time. :-)
    
    Dave

    Swingweight is a bit overrated.  Most players can't tell the difference
    between say... C8 and D1.  A dime weighs about two swingweight points.
    the ping clubs I'va had on the scale are always around C8 (excluding
    wedges)
    
    Rick 

    I'm sure this is a silly question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. 
    I always thought that swingweight, was the ratio of the 'weight of the
    head' to the overall weight of the club. If that's the case (and it
    probably isn't), how can you measure the swingweight of any club once
    the head and shaft are joined ? Obviously there's a way of doing this
    or some of the previous notes couldn't have been written. The reason I
    ask is that I recently had a set of Nicklaus VIP heads re-shafted with
    HOGAN PLUS shafts. The result for me has been a distinct improvement in
    medium and long iron play. I would like now to measure the swingweight,
    to make sure that any subsequent purchases conform to this weight.
    
    
    Norman

RE: .62

The swingweight is not he ratio of the club head weight to he overall
weight of the club.  It is the sum of moments about a point 12"(maybe
13 don't remember) down from the butt end to the CG + the mopment from
that point to the heel of the club, minus the moment from that point to
the butt end.  You can see that the overall weight has nothing to do
with the swingweight but the weight of the components do determine swingweight.

I suspect the reason that you're hitting your clubs better with the new
shafts is due to the shaft and not the SW.  There are so many things to
consider like the bend point of the shaft, the overall weight of the
club, the sizing of the grip.  I suggest you have all the specs
measured and keep them in a safe place so they will be available when
it's time to upgrade.


						KO

    
    
    
    
    
    
    .63 ?
    
>> The swingweight is not he ratio of the club head weight to he overall
>> weight of the club.  It is the sum of moments about a point 12"(maybe
>> 13 don't remember) down from the butt end to the CG + the mopment from
>> that point to the heel of the club, minus the moment from that point to
>> the butt end.  You can see that the overall weight has nothing to do
>> with the swingweight but the weight of the components do determine swingweight.

    
    Please forgive my ignorance, but I didn't understand your explanation
    of swing weight.  What is a moment?
    
    -laura
    

    	Hi Laura,
    
    	Moment or Moment of Inertia is measure of what it will take to
    	start an object in motion or to stop an object already in motion.
    
    	Eunhwa

Well actually a moment is weight x distance and is measured in inch
pounds.  So if we take this point 12"below the butt end and measure the
distance from there to the center of gravity and multiply by the
weight, we have the first 'moment'.
(the weight is not the weight of the whole club, but the weight over
just that distance)  Then we get the other 2 moments, (1 of which is
negative) get the total and we have some number of inch ounces.  That
then translates to the letter number scale (e.g. C9) that we are used
to.  I guess the point is that I can make a club swing at C9, but make
it weigh 2 pounds.  So the swingweight is not as important as some of
the other specs are.  Hope this makes thing a little more clear.



							KO

    This has been very helpful to me as I have been having the strange
    problem of hitting certains clubs very well and other clubs (different
    make) not at all.
    
    So, I gather I should take the club I hit well to ??? and get shaft
    analyzed for swingweight,stiffness, length etc.  Would it also help to bring
    the club that I cannot hit in this case a Dunlop 2 iron?  And where is
    the best place to do this.
    
    One more question.  do you think an analysis of the type of iron (4)
    that I can hit will enable an expert to set me up with the correct type
    of woods?
    
    Bill
    I have the complication of being left handed so I cannot go to a shop
    and try this club or that club as there usually just are not any left
    handed clubs in the shop, especially loose left handed clubs.
    
    Bill

    re: .67
    
    	everyone usually has certains clubs they hit very well and other
    clubs not at all...BUT...
    
    IMHO - the reason this is true is we use a different swing with
    	   the clubs we have trouble with, if we could swing the same
    	   with every club, 2-w/D-5W and let the length/loft of the
    	   club do it's intended job we would find that we could hit
    	   all the clubs equally as well for our level of ability...
    
    	ever swing your 2 iron like you do your 9 iron...you'd be amazed
    	at how straight it goes and the distance (180-220) will be
    	consistantly in YOUR range...!!
    
    

 RE: .67

	Yes taking those clubs to a good clubmaker will help.  There is
a wealth oof information in the clubs you've been using and in the
difference between good and not so good clubs.  I would ask the
clubmaker what the differnces are between the clubs and what is
recommended or you.  You;ll have to decide what makes sense of course.

re: .68

	While what you say tends to be true, we have to also remember
that not all of us can make the perfect (or even pretty good) golf
swing.  The specs on a club can help overcome some of the flaws in a
swing and make the game more enjoyable.  It's nice to be pure of mind,
heart and swing, but having fun is why we play this silly game.


						KO

    RE. .67
    
    I should have clarified that the 4 iron was a different make than the 
    2 iron.  Essentially I was using the identical swing with both 2 and 4
    and could hit the latter perfect and the 2 iron not at all.  The 4 iron
    was a Wilson Sam Snead blade from an old set; the 2 iron was a Dunlop
    "Cavity-back" (hope I have that right).
    
    I am sure the problem is my release at impact point and I suspect that
    there is a difference in the clubs causing it.
    
    But I think .68 has the answer I will follow and that is to take the
    "good" club to a club maker and be fitted correctly.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bill

    For the most part, you'll always hit long irons worse than the rest of
    your clubs, because the shaft is longer (more room for things to go
    wrong) and they have less loft (harder to hit it straight). Plus, you
    need great balance and smooth tempo to hit the 1-2-3 irons. Having said
    that, let me also add that sometimes in a set you get a club that truly
    is a "foul ball," meaning the swingweight or overall weight vbaries
    significantly from the others, the loft is off, or the shaft is weaker,
    stronger or with a different kick point than the others. These things
    occur due to bad quality control at the factory, but if you have
    P{ings, Hogans, Armours or other top of the line clubs, it doesn't
    happen often. If your balance, swing tempo and swing length are
    consistent, most of the variations you experience should go away -
    unless you really do have a "bad club," and - it COULD happen...
    
    __Jack