Conference 7.286::golf

    
    I can do it. How I do it I haven't a clue. It probably came when I
    was a kid, and all I use to play were the par 3 courses where the
    longest club you could use was 8 iron. I find it easier to do it
    out of a trap, if that helps.
    
    Mike

    To make it backup, you have to hit the ball first with no grass between
    the clubface and the ball at impact.  I've done once maybe twice myself
    but then again mistakes will happen.  I played with the assistant pro
    at the club I'm a member at and he did it several times during the
    round.  In a word the answer is practice!
    
    
    
    					KO

    Well, according to my pro, the way to make the ball spin backwards
    is to hit down on it.  The way to make a ball spin backwards when
    landing it on the green is to hit it so it has a very high trajectory
    (as opposed to a flatter trajectory) with a lot of backspin.  The
    way to hit it with a higher trajectory is to swing faster.
    
    It works!  I'm even getting my 3- and 4-iron shots to bite and pull
    back on greens this year!  I can't remember the last time one of
    my approach shots landed on the green and bounced off.
    
    
    					Mike
    
    P.S.  I almost forgot, I use balata balls (Pinnacles & Maxflis).
    Also, PRACTICE!

    
          Hard to do where I play.  Most public courses in this area
    (New England) keep the fairway grass fairly high. As Kevin stated
    earlier the clubface must strike the ball without hitting grass
    first.  It's very hard to do around here.  I've played in Florida
    and routinely was able to spin the ball back.  Up here, I'm happy
    if my ball hits and bounces forward a few feet. If I started 
    practicing hitting down on the ball, more than a few fat shots
    would result.  Now if I could play Ferncroft, Concord CG during
    the Digital Seniors Classic or The Country Club or .....
    
       In my opinion, getting the fancy backspin is all for show.
    There are more important aspects of the game that you could practice.
    
    -rick

	This discussion reminds me of the story about Hogan & one of
	his high handicap pro/am partners.  Hogan hits a 2 iron to the green, 
	it stops and then backs up 6 feet.  The high handicapper asked him
	to show him how to do it.  To which Hogan asked, "How far do you hit
	your 2 iron?)  The hacker replied, "180 yds."  To which Hogan
	responded if you only hit the ball 180 yards, why do you want the
	ball to back up?"

	It's impressive to see a ball back up but most players don't need
	to do it.  I have seen several times where Greg Norman has hit the
	ball to within inches of the flag only to have it spin back 15-20 feet.
	
	It's also easier to get the ball to backup if the green is tilted
	slightly towards you.

	Larry

    re: .4
    
    Rick,
    
    I play at Trull Brook in Tewksbury every Saturday morning and I play at
    Saddle Hill in Hopkinton two nights a week.  I am amazed at how I can
    spin the ball back on Trull Brook's greens and even Saddle Hill's.  If
    you've ever played there (I'll bet you have) you know how firm and fast
    those greens get in the summer. 
    
    	The fairway grass here has to be kept high because Bermuda doesn't
    fare too well up here.  the only place in New England that I've
    played that was cut like some of the championship courses in Florida
    is Nashawtuc.  The first four feet of rough is cut like the fairways
    are generally cut up here, and the second cut(?) of rough is about
    6 inches deep.  I had the pleasure of playing there about 6 weeks
    before the Seniors classic.  It was tough!
    
    
    					Mike

>    Rick,
    
>    I play at Trull Brook in Tewksbury every Saturday morning and I play at
>    Saddle Hill in Hopkinton two nights a week.  I am amazed at how I can
>    spin the ball back on Trull Brook's greens and even Saddle Hill's.  If
>    you've ever played there (I'll bet you have) you know how firm and fast
>    those greens get in the summer. 
    
       Mike, you win the bet. I do play Trull regularly.  The reason
    you get more holding action there than other places, is that the 
    majority of greens have a significant slope from back to front.
    
-rick

    re: .3
    
    just a nit but pinnacle isn't balata.....uless they have a newer
    version of the ball I don't know about...pinnacle has always been
    a surlyn ball not balata...can't speak for maxi balls...

    
      Foe what my two cents is worth...
    
        Soft greens  -  if you hit to a "pool table" green, virtually
                        nothing will "hold" the green, let alone spin
                        back
    
        Balata balls -  the softer cover allows the gooves in the club
                        to "grip" the surface of the ball.
    
        Euipment     -  old (lots of play time) clubs have worn faces
                        and because of the "V" grooves, those grooves
                        are further apart and edges more rounded. The
                        new "U" grooves remain constant in distance
                        and remain effective longer during wear.
    
        Striking the ball -  Hitting down on the ball, as well as
                        "pinching" or "nipping" the ball imparts
                        backspin.  Long grass in the fairway will
                        keep you from that pinching of the ball
                        because the ball has a tendency to slide
                        on the grass.
    
        Ability  -      I liked that, "if you only hit a 2 iron 180
                        yards, why do you want it to back up?"

re: .5

>	It's impressive to see a ball back up but most players don't need
>	to do it.  I have seen several times where Greg Norman has hit the
>	ball to within inches of the flag only to have it spin back 15-20 feet.

I think we all remember Greg Norman's approach shot on the 72nd hole of the 
1986 PGA -- it hit near the flag and came back like a yo-yo into the rough.
Bob Tway then hit his historic bunker shot into the cup for the victory.
Greg Norman missed out on a birdie opportunity because he hit a "pretty"
shot.

Jeff

    
    Hi,
        Thanks for the tips... I appreciate it.
    	
    	I really should have explained my reason for wanting the spin,
    instead of just asking. I would have responded the same way... 
    recommending to avoid spin in the first place. 
    
    	I hit the ball long, and am consistent, DEC handicap of 3. I
    wanted to add the spin shot to my bag, but with no intention of making
    it spin on all of my swings. I play Stow Acres most of the time, I use a 
    9 iron from 150.
    
    	The times the pin is tucked behind a trap (you know the shot)
    it would be great to go after the pin long, and spin it back. Rather
    than try and "just" clear the trap and release it close. Alot of
    times in match play I must birdie to win the hole, and need to get
    it close enough for the one putt.
    
       Last night a friend stated my shot is too high to provide for
    the spin I want. Suggesting I hit more of a punch down type of swing,
    to keep the shot lower... and impart more spin. I have practiced
    ALOT lately, and when I'm SURE I hit it correct, (taking a divot,
    striking the ball first) ... no luck! That's why I started wondering
    about the grooves, conditions of the greens/fairways etc.  
    
    	Couple of questions...  Is backspin only do-able with short
    irons or at short distances? Like under 150 yards... ? Must hands
    be ahead at impact? Does the swing path at impact tend to stay low
    through the ball, before coming up? More of a U shape rather than
    V shape? I was trying to make my swing do \__ at impact and it did
    make it bite... but still no backspin.
    
    	Anyway, I really appreciate the help, your suggestions are always
    good advice.
    
    	thanks  Walt
    
    
    

    Try the old "watch the divot on a practice swing" routine.  Take
    a practice swing and notice where the divot begins.  Set up for
    the shot by putting the ball even with the back of the divot.
    
    Might help.  But to spin a ball enough to make it suck back, you
    plain have to not only hit it with the correct approach angle, but
    you've got to generate a pretty fair amount of clubhead speed. 
    I can't generate that speed very often, but when I do, well, it's
    nice!
    

    re: .8
    
    	I've got about 30 - 36 Pinnacle balata balls and about 36 Pinnacle
    surlyns.  About half of the Pinnacles are about 2-3 years old. 
    The rest are about a year old.  The Maxflis are all this year's
    models.
    
    
    						Mike

Walt,
    
    RE:  Last night a friend stated my shot is too high to provide for
    the spin I want. Suggesting I hit more of a punch down type of swing,
    to keep the shot lower... and impart more spin. I have practiced
    ALOT lately, and when I'm SURE I hit it correct, (taking a divot,
    striking the ball first) ... no luck! That's why I started wondering
    about the grooves, conditions of the greens/fairways etc.  
    
    I hope you don't play your friend for big bucks.  You must hit the
    ball high to get any benefit from backspin.  If you hit it low the
    ball will tend to skid across the green a good distance before it
    bites (if it has enough enough spin left after skidding).
    
    RE: Is backspin only do-able with short irons or at short distances?
    
    No, even the pros (especially the Seniors) do it with 2-, 3- & 4-irons.
    
    RE: Must hands be ahead at impact? 
    
    No, because if they are, then you are taking the natural loft out
    of your club causing a lower trajectory shot.  For example, if you
    hit a 9-iron 150 yards normally, and you hit the same shot with
    your hands ahead of the ball, you'll hit a lower tracjectory shot
    with a lot of carry and roll.  You will have made your 9-iron play
    like a 6- or 7-iron.
    
    RE: Does the swing path at impact tend to stay low through the ball,
    before coming up? More of a U shape rather than V shape? I was trying
    to make my swing do \__ at impact and it did make it bite... but still
    no backspin. 
    
    The swing is the same as for any shot.  See my earlier reply from
    last week.  The swing doesn't change, just the club head speed.
    
    

    Hi,
    
    There seems to be some confusion about hitting it high and putting
    backspin on the ball. The ONLY way to get real backspin is to hit
    down on the ball. If you get lots of backspin it will make the ball
    'climb' and you get height also. If you hit through the ball with
    a lofted club you wont get a divot or very little backspin but you
    will be able to get a high shot !
    
    Now just to confuse things I saw Langer playing in the Ryder Cup
    four years ago play a low shot to the 10th (the one many players
    drove, and some finished in the water) when everyone was playing
    high wedge shots with lots of backspin, landing by the pin and backing
    up yards, even into the water. Langer took almost no divot, landed
    just short of the pin and stopped dead !! How did he do that ?? 
    
    Mike

    RE: .13
    
    How did you determine they were balata??????
    
    The pinnacle ball made by Titlest has ALWAYS been a surlyn ball
    at least for the last 7 years cause that's how long I been
    playing them and I'd be willing to bet on that....
    
    So how was it that you determined they were balata and how old are
    the balata ones??? Pinnacle WAS made around 1960-64 but then stopped
    for a while and re-introduced....

    re: .13
    
    And ... I've never seen a TWO-PIECE BALATA BALL...has anyone???
    

    Hi Again,
    
    	Thanks Mike , your tips were right on. 
   
     Also the tip on watching divots to see where the ball should be
    worked great.
             
    	I played a course this weekend that had short fairway grass,
    and worked on spinning it back. The first time it worked was from
    130 yards out , into a back/front sloping green. I hit it right
    at the stick... it landed five feet from the pin, and spun back
    to 15 feet from the pin ( or three putt distance) same thing ;).
    
    	Take care,
    
    	Walt
    

    re: .16
    
    Let's see.  My father told me they were the old style ball not the new
    "plastic" (his expression, not mine) style.  I also have, on occasion,
    put little (somtimes big) "smiles" (or cuts, if you prefer) into the
    balls with my irons.  I have even peeled a cut ball.  Some of them are
    darker (turning yellow maybe?  Surlyn balls don't color).  They have a
    much softer feel off the club.  I don't have the boxes they came in
    since my father threw them away when he gave me the balls.  They were
    brand new as of two or three years ago.  Some are marked 90 compression
    and 100 compression as are the new Maxfli balata balls.  I showed them
    to my pro last fall when he recommended I use the balata ball because
    I'm pretty accurate with my 5-iron to SW.  He told me they were
    balata balls.
    
    I have yet to see very many balata balls in any pro shop or golf shop.
    I guess because everbody tries to hit 'em high and far like Greg
    Norman.  I was given a box of Mafli balatas (DH 300, with a little
    marking that says "DUNLOP Balata"). 
    
    
    						Mike
    

    re: 17 
    
    Funny you should mention that because I found some DUNLOP Blue Max
    balls that have a distinct ring around the middle that suggests
    to me that it MIGHT be a two-piece ball.  I don't believe they are
    balata but they have the look and feel of a balata ball.  They don't
    have the same distance as the Pinnacle or the newer Maxfli balatas.
    They also don't have any compression rating on them.
    
    Mr. Gordon, are you located in Marlboro as I am?  If so, we could
    get together and compare Pinnacles, balatas, Blue Max's, surlyns,
    etc.
    
    
    						Mike

    re: .20
    No I'm located in merrimack,n.h.
    
    Titlest, unlike other manufactures of two piece balls, does test
    and stamp there two piece pinnacles with a compression rating.
    This does not make the ball a wound balata...without the box
    they came in I'd not be really sure because like I said they
    made the pinnacle line years ago and I think this was before
    suryln was introduced...however I'd still check around these
    may be older golf balls that could be worth some dough to someone...
    Most pro shops carry balata and almost all manufactures make them
    most if not all manufactures will say somewhere on the sleeve of
    balls if it is a two piece/suryln or wound balata/suryln
    
    again though I've never come acrossed a two piece balata ball
    but will be on the lookout...life is an education...!!
    

    I'm not at the point in my game where I'm concerned with hitting
    a backspin BUT I was watching a video a few weeks about by
    Arnold Palmer called "Practice like a Pro".  His method was
    to place the ball 1" forward in your stance and make sure
    that the club connected with the ball cleanly.  Just thought
    I'd mention it in case anyone is interested in renting it.
    
    Frank

    HI Walt..
    	I have read your craze golf and I think we are in the same
    situation here..I just started golf for only about two years..but
    believe me..its drive me crazy too..I have many problems from slice
    to out of bound..but one sure thing is I do study hard..the latest
    spin the ball lesson from tape that I've been study is from Lee Triveno
    and it works for me and I think it will work for U too..
    try to put 75% of you weight on your left foot leave about 20-25% on
    the right foot, when you swing try to force the left foot at no motion..
    and follow through with it,but I think,
    it has alot to do with the distance too..I would not try it..if it closer 
    than 50-60 yards away from the green..let me how it work.. 

    
    Hi Golfers,
    
    	Speaking of spin....  I used to own a set of Wilson 1200GE's
    	and could not get the ball to spin back. I just wanted to
    	be able to do it, for the rare moments when I might need to.
    	Here's a question;
    
    	I am now hitting the Hogan Edge irons, and without doing anything
    	different with my swing... had the ball backup on two occasions
    	using a nine iron (off a tee). Matter of fact it was the last two 
    	times I played th hole, so I expect it will continue to happen.
    
    	Being I could not get the 1200's to do the same, it got me
        thinking (another rare occasion ;) ) what does the Hogan irons 
    	have that make the ball spin?
    
    	I used to clean the grooves of the Wilson 1200's with metal objects
    	and think I may have dulled the edges? 
    	
    	or,
    
    	It's because the Hogans are square grooved?
    
    	or,
    
    	It's because the Hogans have 25% softer metal?
    
    
    	What do you golfers think?
    
    	thanks  Walta

    re: Walta's spin question.
    
    I know that the square grooves increase spin rate and a softer metal (
    like BeCu ) helps aswell, but i think that a good swing combined with
    receptive greens and no grass between blade and ball are the key
    things to encourage the suck back of the ball. 
    I think that the most significant factor is the receptive greens. 
    Here in Ireland, they don't water greens very much, so i have never got
    a ball to suck back, even after what i would call a good swing.
    
    Whats a good swing ? I suppose it is everything combining to produce
    clubhead speed in excess of 90mph.
    
    martin

    Hi Martin,
    
    	You're right about the conditions being a big influence on
    	putting backspin on the ball...  In this situation, the 
    	conditions were the same, with the only difference being
    	the irons. I haven't changed my swing.
    
    	 The grooves on the Hogan edges have a much sharper
    	edge, compared to the Wilsons. When I was first looking at the
    	irons I thought to myself "these grooves are much more defined
    	than on my irons". 
    
    	The bad part is, the first time the ball spun back was when I hit
    	pin high 4 ft left of the pin... only to spin it off the green
    	to the first cut 15 ft away :( . Last night it hit 8 ft in front
    	and spun to 20 ft away .  
    
    	Time for a new topic
    
    		How do you stop the ball from spinning back :) ? !!!
    
    	Walta

     It's the square grooves, Walta. I've got Edges too, and you should see
    the way they "shave" Spalding Balls. My friend, who is Sales Mgr. for
    Hogan has given me a lot of info on this.
     Actually, all the tour guys suck it back no matter what clubs they
    hit, because the clubface is dead square at impact and is travelling
    STRAIGHT toward the ball. Plus, they hit all ball first, spinning it
    sharply straight up the clubface to produce a ball spinning without
    sidespin. Balata balls help too.
    
    --Jack

    Although spinning can come from "sliding" the ball up the clubface, i
    actually comes from pinching the ball against the turf at impact. Also
    important are the following:
    
    It helps to be against the wind.
    Soft greens are a must.
    Hitting into a corectly pitched green also helps.
    Tight fairways are a must.
    Balata or Zinthane/Lithium is better than Surlyn.
    
    All of the above together with a crisp hit will work all the time.
    There are somethings that will never spin the ball back. Also, side
    spin is as effective as a straight hitter. Almost all the better
    players turn the ball in one direction or the other. They also spin the
    heck out it.
    
    
    More $.02
    Ken