Conference 7.286::golf

    I've noticed that with my swing a lot of slicing and pushing has
    to do with how I finish the shot. If the end of the swing finishes
    with my hands next to my left shoulder it's a definate slice or
    push. I my hands end up high in between my head and my left shoulder
    it's right down the middle. Obviously this ending position must
    be the result of something I'm doing within the swing. What,??
    I have also within the last couple of years gone to a more upright
    swing rather than a flat swing. This Helps.I think the finish with
    hand at left shoulder is a reminant of my flatter swing arc.
    
    Tom

    RE:.0
    
    It's funny you should mention the 3 iron.  That's how I measure my
    game.  If I can hit the 3 iron (in warm up) I can hit anything.
    The only thing that comes to mind about hitting the driver is that
    you're trying to hit too hard causing your upper body to "go by the
    shot".  In other words you're moving your head past the address
    position before you hit the ball.  If you were to do that with a 3 iron
    you'd push/slice that too.  
    
    With the driver try this.  Make sure you are set up square to the ball,
    then try to get a base hit to the right side of second base, save the 
    home runs for the 19th hole.  And Don't worry be happy!

    
    
    	I, myself am having the same problem with the slice. I have
    always been able to hit a three iron on the upwards of 225 off the
    tee right down the middle, and have recently, with a new set of
    clubs, hit a 2 iron about 10+ yards further. 
    
    	I am getting very frustrated with my driver though, I think
    one of the major problems with my slice anyways is the natural tendancy
    to want to kill the ball on the drive. I noticed that if I ease
    up a little the ball will come more back toward the center of the
    fairway. But if I did this all the time why would I need woods in
    my bag ??? I have always been able to hit a long ball, even with
    a slice. But if I can straighten it out and get the same power on
    the follow through, mid to high 70's might not be that far away.
    
    	I was looking through a mail order catalog for Nevada Bob's
    yesterday and say a "glove"/wrist support that basically looked
    like a bowling glove. It was advertised to help correct the wrist
    problems associated with sliceing. Anyone ever heard of this/used
    one ???
    
    John
    

    
    	One note of interest is that a standing rule is to position
    your feet about shoulder width apart for the shots off of the tee.
    Has anyoue ever measured how narrow this is. I just did and way
    amazed. I figure that I've been hitting the drives all along with
    a stabnce that is to wide.
    
    
    Tom

    I've been looking at shoulder-width too! (using a mirror)
    However I was surpised at how much WIDER than my normal stance it 
    was!! I'm definately going to widen a bit - it seems to explain 
    partly why I have problems balancing (particularly why my right 
    knee seems so far forward on the follow through).
    
    Paul

    Back to .0:  pushing/slicing.  In Gary Player's video, he states
    that if you slice, you should work on 1 thing:  getting your hands
    thru the ball quickly.  Regardless of what else you're doing correctly
    or incorrectly, if you're hands don't come back to square, or you just
    plain never swing your arms, you'll slice (push) the ball.
    
    He recommends a drill where you stand with you feet together, and
    hit the ball just by swinging your arms (and your hands, of course). 
    It helps me, since it isolates hand/arm action from leg/weight shift
    action.  

    Mike

It would seem to me that if you can consistently swing a 3 iron (arguably the
toughest club to hit in the bag) "215 yards down the middle" and if your short
game is not giving you problems, looking at your swing for your driver
problems is looking in the wrong place.  Messing with a swing that is solid
for all phases of the game except driving is asking for real trouble.  Your
problem seems to be equipment related or a mental block.

If it were me, I'd take my clubs to a reputable shop and have them check for
consistency in flex, weight, etc.  Have the face angle checked, maybe its to
steep for your swing and causes you to alter it, some club faces are a bit
rounder than others, and if you don't hit it real square, you'll get some
strange hits.  If the driver is certified okay, then the problem is most
likely psychological.  You wouldn't be the first golfer to simply alter 
a good swing when you select your driver.  How many "golfers" have you heard
refer to their driver as the "big stick".   

Have your driver checked against your other clubs for consistency, if its
are okay, try working up to hitting the driver.  By all means check your
ball position, stance, grip, alignment, and all the other basics, but it 
doesn't sound to me like you should change much if anything.  Rather, I'd play 
a couple of rounds using a 4-wood off the tee, then a 3-wood, and mentally
you'll be gaining on the driver. 

    
    
    The pro narrowed my stance in the first lesson this spring.  What
    it did was make me more aware of balance.  I couldn't swing all
    out and maintain my balance.  The result was a smoother swing
    with more consistant TEMPO and I don't look up to see where the
    ball is going.  I know its going where it was meant to go (67.6%
    of the time..).  I've been hitting crisp, clean shots and have
    dropped 10 strokes on a round to the low eighties.

}    described....clean crisp shots....striking the ball with less "power"
}    and hitting it further.

strike the ball with less power and hitting it further can also be
obtained with "soft hands"..i.e. your grip is exactly the right pressure
on the club and when it happens you sort of wounder why....

I had it happen about twice this year and cannot for the life of me I can't
duplicate it consistantly.....I 've seen it refered too in various
articles but the best description is in Nicklaus book "golf my way"
forget what page number....it's an interesting feeling to say the least and
the results are fantastic...

    Can anyone out there explain what is meant by "shoulder width" when
    referring to the distance your feet should be apart when driving.
    Should the outsides of the feet match up with the outsides of the
    shoulders, am I trying to be too critical? It just seems that when
    I am on the tee, I spread my feet much farther apart than when I
    am hitting a ball in the fairway. My ball striking on the tee is
    very inconsistent with a tendency to slice the ball into the next
    county. Also, when I step up to the ball on the tee, I have to
    fight an almost iresistable urge to try and CRUSH THE BALL!! Once
    off the tee, my game improves dramatically.(so i four putt
    occaisionally)
    Any tips on a sound setup routine for driving would be appreciated.
    
    THE MAD HACKER
    

	Re: .14

	How far apart should your feet be for your driver? I remember an
	article that had them 4 or 5 balls in a row between the feet.

	Larry

    (* Haven't looked at this conference in _ages_ *)
    
    I have exactly the same problem as in the base note. I can hit a
    2-iron beautiful, ...but the woods just wanna go right.
    
    I seem to be slowly resolving the problem by watching Nick Faldo
    hit a golf ball. He probably swings slower than any other of the
    big hitting pros and yet still gets tremendous distance with
    accuracy that Trevino would be proud of. The secret is swinging, and
    extending, through the ball.
    
    Try it!
    
    
    
    Stephen.   

    shoulder width or whatever width you want, but the correct width
    for you will be the width of your stance that allows you to "SWING
    the club through the ball" WITHOUT LOSING YOUR BALANCE......
    
    the width of you feet on any shot with ANY club should insure
    that you finish "IN BALANCE" if not your probably too wide or swinging
    too hard...
    
    you notice the pro's and better amamtures(?sp) have all different
    widths on their stances BUT THEY ALL SEEM TO FINISH IN BALANCE...!!
    
    the stance gives you balance...good balance is what to strive for..
    
    
    my 2cents worth

      Being troubled by a slice this year, I also followed the advice of
    keeping feet apart by the width of my shoulders. Off to the range and
    guess what? The higher irons lost the usual, for me, left to right tail
    and were much straighter. The biggest change was in the 4 iron. It was
    long, straight and high. Clearly, I was very happy. But on the driver,
    the slice is their, but it has improved.
    
     More work is needed, but I feel that I am swinging too hard. Just
    can't break the urge to "hammer it".
    
    
    
    
    
                       Ken

    Well, thanks for all the tips! I think the key may be tempo. Last
    night I tried various things with my grip, stance, and tempo and
    the speed at which I swing seems to be the key for straightening
    my slice. My wide stance feels very comfortable whether I swing
    hard or easy and my grip feels good also even if it looks a little
    strong. My swing speed is a different matter altogether. If I 
    concentrate on taking the club away very low and very slow, I make
    a very smooth swing and the ball really flies straight off the tee.
    If I yank the club off the top in an effort to really build some
    clubhead speed the ball would take off in who-knows-what-direction!!
    SO, in conclusion, I think that more time spent working on my swing
    tempo and less worrying about my grip and stance will be benificial.
    
    
    THE MAD HACKER
    

    
    	I would like to know how I can break an Outside-In swing.
    
    	This is causing serious problems with my driving.  I use
    	a stiff graphite shaft, with oversized head.  The ball 
    	really goes, however, between 150-250 yds out a severe slice 
    	takes hold.  In listening to the "stance" note I've learned
    	that its most likely an swing outside-in.  Which I can confirm
    	with my iron divots.
    	
    	My usual adjustments are to grip the club so that the head is
    	closed, by an 1/8th of a turn.  It works fine...usually.
    
    	My iron play this translates into a controllable fade, however
    	it would be nice to have complete control.  Those occasions 
    	when a fade is not possible, usually spells trouble for me.
    
    	T_C
    	

Cheezze!  12:00 and no one's answered this yet??!

Well, a slice isn't necessarily cause just by stance.  You could be doing one
or more of the following;

Not releasing the hands, this will leave the face open at impact.  Does your
shot start straight, or does it start right then get worse??

Blocking, ie; not turning your shoulders.  On the backswing, for a full swing,
your back should face the target at the top of the swing.  On the follow thru 
your belt buckle should actually be "past" the target when you finish.

Just some more things to think about.

Ed

    re: .23
    
    get rid of the stiff shaft....get a regular shaft....
    99% of the ama. golfers don't have the swing required
    to consistantly hit a stiff shaft...take all the help
    you can get i.e. a regular shaft...

  If you want to experiment with elimination of an outside-in swing, exaggerate
the tuck on your backswing (keep your hands close to your body).  Then try to
swing through, trying to start the ball's path at an angle well to the right
of the target.  In other words, don't try to hit the ball to the target.  Try
to hit it in a straight line well to the right of the target.  But you have to
do it while working from your normal stance.

  I've found that exaggerating motions is a great help to pointing out what
causes an extreme slice or an extreme hook.  Knowing the extremes helps you
figure out where the 'correct' swing is for you.

  Credit for the above goes to WOTVAX::Morrison, with his 4 o'clock advice.  It
gave me an extreme inside-out swing that I worked back out until I got the
swing I wanted.  See 1584.10

  You should also try to get a friend who knows anything at all about golf to
look at your swing.  There may be something obvious that they can point to.  The
golf swing is a bear to tune because you can't see it!

JB

    Re .23
    Try hitting a few buckets of balls with the head cover tucked under
    your right arm. The cover is not to fall out until after you have
    struck the ball. Remember to keep your head still and set up square.
    This drill should help get rid of the outside-in swing.
    
    
    Rich	

    
    Hi Rich,
    
    	Yeah  I tried that head cover under the arm drill...  now
    
    	whenever I swing, my right arm slams abruptly into my right
    	side... causing a "honk" type sound .  After a large bucket,
    	I've attracted somewhere around 50 ducks !
    
    	Now I get invited on hunting trips...  they say " you don't
    	need a gun,  bring your driver" .
    
    	Walta

    Walta,
    
    Fire that right side before the hands start down!!!
    
    Rich
    
    

    
    Walta, Rich, you guys are unreal.  Now I have to go and clean up that
    cola I just spit up all over my tube.  8^)    
    
    -rick

    re: 25 and the stiff shaft
    
    I found that the stiff shaft did not cause the slice, but because I had
    adopted a "guide the ball" swing, the stiff shaft just accentuated the
    problem.  If you swing the stiff shaft you will get great results, if
    not, go to a softer flex.
    
    As for curing the slice...try getting it to a controllable or
    predictable fade.  Many swing keys to cause this...I have tried Lee
    <Trevino's figure 8 swing, outside on the take away and inside on the
    downswing, I've tried the grip of Freddy Couples and on and on. 
    Somedays are diamond...some days are stone.  
    
    You can even change balls...to a two peice with slower spin rate and
    tee the ball lower thus creating less loft and less spin.  Everyone has
    a different conglomeration of swing keys to learn to control the shot
    shape.
    
    You might consider the use of a video camera or a lesson to create the
    mental picture of what your swing looks and feels like.  You might
    consider taking a fews weeks off and then giving the game up for good.
    
    I think that a few thousand dollars in new equipment and lessons would 
    cure you of the problem...or you can use Walta's advice and take up
    hunitng.
    
    SCD