Conference 7.286::golf

       re .0:
       
       When no one is looking.
       
       --Mr Topaz

    	Actually. beleive it or not Mr Topaz, there are leagues that
    play a preferred lie as a rule.  If you play in one of these leagues,
    and plan on being competitive in it, you should use it, as you
    opponents surely will.  It is also only used when the ball is in
    the fairway.  It is used mostly to compensate for courses, where
    the condition of the course, is not up to par.  When you take a
    preferred lie, you can move the ball with your club, within a 1
    foot radius of the ball, insuring the ball is moved no closer to
    the hole.  As said before, this can only be done when in the fairway,
    not the rough or hazards, and only in leagues or competition where
    it is explicitly declared.
    
                                                   Beak

    
     Prefered lies, a local option rule, also stipulates when, where
    and how you can excersie the option.  Our club, when the optional
    rule is in force, stipulates that the ball is in the (your) fairway,
    ball cannot be moved more than a clubhead distance from where it
    came to rest and no closer to the hole.  We cannot move the ball
    to improve stance.  If the ball has a playable lie, it can't be
    moved (try enforcing that!).  As of last week, we are playing the
    ball down, or, no prefered lies!  Our fairways have always been
    in good shape and seldom do you get bad lies anyhow.  Just good
    excuses.

Our DEC Augusta League allows only 6" no closer to the hole with also 2 club 
lengths for relief from object in the fairways such as Power Line Poles,
exposed ledge, barn yard animals 8^)

    I was shocked to see preferred lies in use a few years ago at
    Indian Ridge Country Club in the New England Club Pro tournament.
    (not it's official name).  It was the tournament that has
    competitiors such as Paul Barkhouse, Ross Coon, Cotton Dunn etc.
    
    After seeing that, I now take preferred lies quite frequently ;-)
    And no, the fairways were not in bad shape!!
    

>    I was shocked to see preferred lies in use a few years ago at
>    Indian Ridge Country Club in the New England Club Pro tournament.

     Often when there has been a lot of rain there will be a local
     rule allowing you to clean & place your ball.  This is the only
     equitable solution to having a hunk of mud caked on your ball.
     Maybe this is what you saw.

    
    Of course when you improve your lie (no pun intended) you can not
    use your club to do it.  You would take 1 stroke for each time you
    touched the ball.  The correct procedure it to mark the ball, pick
    it up, clean it, then place it within 6" of it's orginal position.
    Just in case you have to play a real SOB in a tournament.
    
    
    					KO

    
    That's interesting, KO.  And correct I guess.  But whenever I've
    seen someone take a prefered lie they moved it with the club!  I
    can't recall ever seeing any one do other than that.  Of course,
    when the pick and clean optional rule is in place it is done as
    you point out.  Next time I'm playing a two dollar nassau with a
    buck in my pocket I'll "remind" someone(sic).

    
    	To a traditionalist "prefered lies" are nothing less than teeing
    the ball up in the fairway. You hit the ball there, fairway or not,
    and should hit it out of there. There are of course exceptions for
    casual water, were by you can clean and place your ball. Try playing
    a round or two without "prefered lies" and you will be surprised
    at how your shotmaking improves, and how your handicap is a more
    realistic indicator of your ability.
    
    					Keep-em straight,
    
    						Fred Deady

    re: 258.6
    
    I think there is a rule in USGA rulebook that allows lift/clean
    and place anytime ball is imbedded in it's own pitch mark anywhere
    through the green......this can often be used instead of having
    to have a local rule when the conditions are wet and muddy....
    
    In fact it can be used anytime local rule or not...

     RE: .-1
    
>    I think there is a rule in USGA rulebook that allows lift/clean
>    and place anytime ball is imbedded in it's own pitch mark anywhere
>    through the green..

    Except of course you can't get relief under this rule in a bunker.  If
    mud has adhered itself to your ball & you are so unfortunate that it
    bounced out of its pitch mark you can lift & clean it at the cost of
    a stroke under the rule covering allowable instances to clean a ball.

    re: .9
    I think your being a bit too harsh here. Some courses almost require
    the use of a prefered lie. What good does it do for your game, or
    clubs, to hit from packed dirt, or from someone's divot? As long
    as everyone is playing by the same 'rules' it's fine by me. When
    we play nice courses, prefered lies are not needed, however like
    I said before, other courses, it is done all the time.
    
    With the exception of hitting from hard dirt, or in a divot, I think
    that prefered lies are in your head anyway. I don't see much of
    a variation on my score when I play with or witout lies. Then again,
    when I play without, the course is nice, and you don't need one
    anyway. 
    
    We have found using NO prefered lies cuts out any questions like
    "am I in the ruff"... (obviously it makes a difference if your playing
    prefered lies)...
    
     Smitty

     If it's good to set your ball up on a tuft of grass then the next
     logical step is to just tee it up in the fairway.  I feel that
     generally in golf things balance out.  

     You don't always deserve what you get.  Then again you don't always
     get what you deserve!

     Except for the previously mentioned wet conditions:
	- Real men don't eat quiche &
	- Real golfers don't play preferred lies. ;-)     

    	The exact rule of embedded ball is 25-2.  It reads,
    	
    	"A ball embedded in it's own pitch-mark in any closely mown
    area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without
    penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer
    the hole.  'Closely mown area' means any area of the course, including
    paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less."
    
    RE .13  Regarding 'Preferred Lies'.
    
    	You can do as you wish, and call ity whatever you want.  But
    I hope you dont' ever complain about a golfer who takes preferred
    lies, where it is allowed of course, and defeats you when you opted
    not to take them.  I play in 2 leagues, one that allows preffered
    lies, and one that doesn't.  If I opted not to take preffered lies
    in the league that allows them, and lost out on 1st place by a point
    to a team that constantly took them, I wouldn't dare say, "Yea,
    but at least I didn't take preferred lies!!!", because the rules
    clearly specified that it was allowed.  Honestly, I don't think
    it makes that big of a difference, if the rule is followed.  That
    is, if preffered lies are taken only in your own fairway.  Also
    to clear up another point.  Just because you are allowed to take
    a preferred lie, doesn't mean you can clean your ball.  This is
    why a preferred lie is taken by moving the ball with your club,
    as oppossed to picking it up a placing it.  If theres mud or dirt
    on it, tough luck!  You can take a preferred lie, but you cannot
    clean your ball.  This may be done only on the green, or where rules
    apply.
    
    PS:  My 9 hole handicap is 5 in one league, and 6 in
         the other.  so preferred lies are not that much
         of an advantage.
    
                                                             Beak

    It is obvious that preferred lies are something that everyone has
    an opinion on - I hate being left out so,...
    
    I believe that it is ok to do whatever you want to do on a golf
    course. I personally will not take a preferred lie (with one exception
    later explained) during a round of golf. I honestly don't think
    that rolling your ball over on a fairway gives any significant
    advantage to any of us out there but the reason that I choose not
    to take lies is that I like to (try to) compete in amateur tournaments
    where the rule is simple - play it as it lies.
    
    The act of turning over your ball during each round puts me at a
    disadvantage primarily from the psychological standpoint of being
    in a tournament and having the misfortune of landing in a divot
    or some other 'rub of the green' situation and then trying to invent
    a way out on the spot. I play as often as I can and allow my
    competitors and partners to take preferred lies if they need them.
    I feel that not taking preferred lies has made my game more complete
    and has increased my capabilities and knowledge of what happens
    to a ball in many circumstances. Can you imagine playing lies all
    year long and then facing a divot or a clump of grass behind your
    ball in an important situation? The game of golf is made up largely
    of mind games. The 'unfairness' of a divot or of a bad bounce is
    just another part of the game but something that I can prepare myself
    for in advance.
    
    I've played enough to be comfortable with my game and long enough
    to know that I have no one out there to please but myself.
    
    We all do things for different reasons and those are my reasons for
    not doing it. (I also believe that regardless of what lie a person
    awards him/herself with they still have to hit the ball where they are
    aiming and most of us have enough problems trying to make that happen -
    even if we teed it up.)
    
    PS.
    
    As for when I will take a lie...whenever there is potential for
    harm to the club (or myself) and there is nothing on the line I
    will roll the ball or drop. I won't hit off a rock in the fairway
    or a root in the rough. I also don't ask but rather announce the
    fact - I would rather lose a side bet than have a broken club or
    tendonitis again.

>    RE .13  Regarding 'Preferred Lies'.
>    
>    	You can do as you wish, and call ity whatever you want.  But
>    I hope you dont' ever complain about a golfer who takes preferred
>    lies, where it is allowed of course, and defeats you when you opted
>    not to take them.  

     I hope you didn't over look my wink ;-) in my comment about real
     golfers.  My tongue was firmly in my check when I entered that remark.
     I agree with you that it would be foolish not to take advantage of
     whatever rules are available.  I just don't think that every lie is
     in need of improvement.  In fact last week I had one that couldn't
     have been sitting up nicer if I had put it on a tee.
     
>    PS:  My 9 hole handicap is 5 in one league, and 6 in
>         the other.  so preferred lies are not that much
>         of an advantage.

     Just for curiosity sake is your handicap better in the league where
     you can roll them over or when you play them as they lie?

     PS: How do you keep straight which league you are playing in?  It would
     be a shame if you accidentally moved your ball when you shouldn't have.

     Larry

    Well, I didn't want to get into this but I thought I would add my
    feelings.
    
    I don't take preferred lies unless I am allowed and in a truly horrible
    lie. I don't think that rolling the ball around in a good lie is
    going to improve the lie (and it may make it worse). I don't like
    to get in the habit of rolling the ball for preferred lies because
    I do play in medal play tournaments where you must play the ball
    down (unless it is in its own pitch mark but that's another rule...)
    
    The thing that I like about playing against someone who is using
    the preferred lie rule is most golfers don't know how to take a
    good preferred lie. I see too many trying to tee the ball up on
    a tuft of grass. You should not want this for a short iron shot
    into the green. Teeing the ball on a tuft of grass produces a "flyer"
    lie. Kind of makes you grin after watching your opponent take that
    preferred lie and then see his ball land on the green and roll off
    because it didn't have enough spin.
    
    When you play course like New Seabury (Blue) you almost never need
    a preferred lie in the fairway because they cut the fairways with
    hydraulic reels. Their fairways are better then some places tees!
    
    Mike

    RE .16
    	Actually, my handicap is lower in the league where we cannot
    take preferred lies!!!  
    	I haven't yet had the misfortune of taking a preferred lie in
    the wrong league.  One reason being, even though it is allowed in
    my other league, it's not that often that I do it.  I only hit about
    55% of the fairways off the tee, so that eliminates 45% of the chances
    I would get.  Plus, I'd guess that 90% of the time I do hit the
    fairway, the lie is just fine, and it's just not necessary to take
    a preferred lie.
    	After all the things I've seen opponents do, intentionaly or
    un-intentionaly, to lower their score illegaly, a guy taking a
    preferred lie in the fairway when he's not supposed to, dosen't
    really bother me.  But if I catch them doing it in the rough, or
    a hazard, that's another question alltogether!!!
    
    PS:  Sorry, I didn't catch your :-) in your
        last reply.
    
                                                           Beak

    
    	My wife has her own rule on "Preferred Lie"..
    
    
    		Where she prefers it !!!
    
    
    PS - USGA, Rule 13, "Ball Played as it lies;lie,area of intended
    			 swing and line of play;stance."
    
    	States "Except as provided by the Rules (local that is), a player
    shall not improve  or allow to be improved - the position or lie
    of his (USGA says his, not me) ball, the area of intedned swing
    or his line of play." It goes on for more definition..Check it out
    sometime.
    
    
    Jim
    

    
    
    
    Preferred Lie (pri-fur'd  li) v.n.  
    
    		A story most often told by a golfer in the clubhouse
    		before or after playing a round of golf.
    
    		Also known as a "believable lie".  
    
    		This is a story that every one knows is an out and out
    		lie about some surrealistic accomplishment on the course.
    
    		Even though it is acknowledged to be a lie, everyone 
    		prefers to hear it because "it coulda happened".....
    
    		.....and at this point, they are free to tell their own...
    
    
    			..."Preferred Lie".
    
    
    		tt
    
    

    sounds like an item I always carry in my bag called scuses.  I can
    usually get a six pack in the lounge just hanging around listening but
    often make my own.
    
    Some courses and days require a bakers dozen but I am proud to say I've
    never run out and am happy to hand out a few extra.
    
    A good round for me is "breaking six" (scuses)
    
    I'd write it little more here but the keys are sticking, response is
    slow....
    
    bb
    

    There is a 14 club limit.  Wonder if there is a scuse limit.  Can you
    use a scuse that you didn't start the round with?  What if someone sees
    you "building" a scuse during a round?  How many strokes?  Do they work
    on a sliding scale, according to your handicap?  These are but a few of
    the deep questions I have regarding scuses.  
    
    SoCalDandy
    

    Although no golfer would think of teeing off without an ample supply of
    scuses, I think that 14 scuses per round should be a rule adopted by
    the U.S.G.A.
    The beauty of scuses is that they need not be in the bag at the start
    of the round but may be borrowed, picked up from other foursomes or
    your own and replenished after the 9th hole.  However, the finer
    scuse-men (excuse me ladies, but my observation is that virtually all
    the "scusiotos" are men) always have their best scuses in the bag,
    ready for use.
    It is in the quality of the scuse, timing of use and sheer chutzpah 
    which mark the true Scusioto.
    
    Also, re your question of handicaps in relation to scuses.  One of the
    finer pleasures in life is watching and listening to master scusers
    playing scuse-ball where each will toss scuses at each other to be deftly
    parried, caught or returned.  The object being to increase the number of
    strokes being given.  I was involved in one of these scuse-matches last
    year with a fellow I had never played with looking for a few extra
    strokes using a well known scuse known among scusionatos as
    "notouchyclublongtimewahwahwah".  
    
    	The distinct touch he employed was to bring me over to his car and open 
    the trunk and show me cobwebs on the clubs.  
    
    Although a scusiouto like me wasn't fooled for a minute I was
    so impressed by the brilliance of his "scuse" that after observing his
    game over several holes I was willing to give him reasonable handicap
    terms on his promise to give me the scuse for my own.  
    
    I honestly think it was a better scuse than the fake blisters I 
    occasionally attach at the back of my heels around the 6th or 7th 
    hole of a particularly rough afternoon.  This particular scuse is 
    actually one half of a biscuse and has to be counted as two scuses.  
    
    The other half is the price tags which are steamed carefully off golf 
    shoes and kept in the bag to be deftly glued back to the bottom of the 
    shoe to make the blister scuse "hook".
    
    bb
    bb
    
    bb

That is funny! You have a good sense of humor and an accurate insight into 

one of golf's most perplexing aspects. We never want to blame the swing but

every other occurrence such as weather, fellow players, equipment, nature,

past occurences etc. But let our swing be good and there is nothing wrong with

with our environment, in fact, we are extremely forgiving, polite, and upbeat.


	Regards Phil

    
    
    Reply -2
    
    	Hi BB,
    
    EXCELLENT !
    
    
    	Thanks for the laugh,
    
    	Walta