Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Well, it's safe to say that this issue has been discussed at length in earlier
notes in this conference. I haven't any specific note pointers at hand, but a
search for text such as "beginner" and/or "piano" would be sure to turn them up.

As for starting opinions, I'm one example of a classically-trained pianist, and I
also play pipe organ for my church. My own synth is an unweighted (i.e., *not*
piano-feel) action, 61-key Kawai. I have no problem with playing with different
"touches" as a keyboard demands, BUT I would very much like to have an 88-key,
weighted-action MIDI keyboard as well as my synth. (BTW, "MIDI keyboard" just
means that it can send control messages to an external box which makes the
corresponding sounds, as well as or instead of making the sounds itself.)

Reason? Foremost, anything less than a full 88 definitely limits you, it's just a
matter of how much and whether it's worth the extra cost/size/weight to have the
full-sized keyboard. Secondarily, although I flatter myself that I can adapt to
any feel, I still find a piano-type action most familiar, and I can't help but
feel that such unthinking comfort is more conducive to the best playing I can
muster.

How does this translate to *your* needs? If your son will be concentrating on
piano, learning on a limited-range synth-action keyboard is not, IMHO, a good
beginning. If you want to play organ in the grand style, *you* will be more
limited by a single manual (and no foot-pedals, either!) than by the truncated
keyboard, which is quite normal for organs. If I were you, I'd probably go for a
good 88-key weighted-action board with built-in sounds, like Roland's FP8, *iff*
you can absorb the UK equivalent of a $2000 pricetag. If dual manuals are
important to you, you could pick up just about any inexpensive synth with a
hald-decent keyboard and use it to trigger your "main" board's sounds. (This
assumes you could accommodate the weirdness of two quite distinct touches at the
same time!) Another possibility is the Roland RDS300, though I don't know if it
"does" organ. Most 88-key weighted-action boards that I've heard of don't have
the ability to generate sounds, only control external sound generating units.

You're bound to get more opinions in following replies, as well as strong
suggestions to search existing notes. Pay heed to both, and take a look in mags
such as "Electronic Musician" and "Keyboard," both of which regularly run 
articles along the lines of what you're looking for. (BTW- the dearth of rapid
replies is mainly due to the fact that on this side of the pond, it's the day
after Thanksgiving, and *almost* everybody is at home slacking off...)

Good luck in your search.

Bob

	Well, nice to see so prompt reply. At least THIS file is *active*...
Thanx Bob.

	I'm indeed reading all what I can in this file, with all the notes
having the "GETTING_STARTED" keyword to start with...

	I saw a lot of discussions regarding the usage of 'modular' devices,
do you think I should consider that too? Might be more interesting if I want
to add another manual later. Also, would separate foot-pedals keyboards be
available too? Not for now, of course: the basic box(es) I need will
probably exhaust all my budget for a while (and you don't start learning
to play organ with the solo pedal of JS Bach C min toccatta anyway!),
but it's interesting to know that it may evolve later in that direction.

	I told you, if I want to play 'grand style', there are a lot of
pipe organs I have access too, so the keyboard is basically for home exercise.
However I'd like to get something which does not bore me after 6 months...

	I've never approached such keyboards before, so pardon this naive
question: are the ones that can mimic pipe organ featured with similar
things to pipe organ stops too?

	By the way, I'm not from UK but from Belgium-but would consider going
to UK to buy the stuff if prices are better over there. it's only a few hundreds
miles away...

	Anyway, thanks again,

		Marc.

P.S.	if any of you has a device which more or less corresponds to what I
	need, would you please care to send a copy of the user documentation
	(If it's small enough - if not, select the most interesting part!)
	to MARC VAN DYCK @BRO ? - Thanks!

    I don't know all of the details of the available equipment, but if I
    had to make this choice myself, this is what I would probably do:
    
    1) Buy a reasonably good quality, weighted 88-note keyboard - no
    sounds, MIDI out. I suspect this means going in for around $1000, but
    this is one investment you can hang onto for awhile.
    
    2) Buy a low-cost, multi-timbral synthesizer, Casio or Yamaha, that is
    capable of both some adequate piano sounds, as well as various organ
    sounds. Plug the keyboard into this for piano practice. Use the synth
    alone for organ practice.
    
    3) If you get to the point where you both want to practice at the same
    time, invest in a decent piano module to go with the keyboard.
    
    This way you can both get started, your son gets the piano feel, and
    you get the organ feel, all for probably less than what you would pay
    for a really good electronic piano. The sound quality won't be as good,
    but you have the ability to upgrade on that aspect as required.
    
    - Ram

    Yes, right, *some* of us in the U.S. are at work... welcome.
    
    Your issue of pipe organ emulation combined with piano is a new one.
    It appears you get to learn about MIDI pronto.  I echo Ram's suggestion
    of an 88note keyboard controller.  I have an (old?) 1985-era KX88 which
    suits me admirably as a pianist.  You will not find any MIDI modules or
    keyboards with pipe organ stop equivalents.  
    
    There are a couple of MIDI pedal controllers available, which could be
    hooked thru the keyboard controller to control sounds.  WHAT sounds ?
    You obviously know about synthesis and sampling.  While you might find
    okay pipe organ sounds in a synthesizer, I submit that synth piano
    sounds are cheesy in the extreme.  I'd suggest some investigation into
    rackmount MIDI sample playback units.  My Kurzweil 1000PX rack unit has
    a wonderful grand plus a solid pipe organ preset.  Variants of the
    basic sound can be built inside the unit, using patch editing commands,
    and can be called up at the press of a button on your shiny new
    keyboard controller.  If you require a second manual, stack a low-cost 
    synth-with-keyboard over your main keyboard.  Of course, with two
    keyboards and a footpedal assembly, then you get to learn about MIDI
    merging. ;-)
    
    best of luck - karl in arizona, usa

    You might like to look at Rolands U220 sound module.  In my opinion the
    piano sounds are excellent; organ sounds fair/good, but I'm sure you can get
    an extra sound card with much better ones on it for around #40 (ie
    English pounds).  They are sampled, not synthesised - much more
    realistic.  *And* you get a whole wealth of really good sampled 'real'
    instruments and sexy synth type sounds (sampled from synths) which your
    son will love (and I bet you will too even though they are beyond what
    you actually need)
    
    I support what has been said about full width weighted
    action keyboard as an ideal, but your son won't be using the extremes
    of the range for some years to come, so unless you want it for yourself
    maybe the full width bit is not so critical.  The Roland U20 is the
    equivalent of the U220 as a self contained keyboard unit (61 keys;
    weighted action I think - not certain).  This can also be easily set up 
    to drive other sound modules as well/instead through its MIDI port.       
    About #700
    
    If an 'independent' master keyboard would suit you better and finance
    is a limitation, have a look at Cheetah.  Quality and finish seems a
    little rough, but they appear good value.
    
    All these options need a separate amplification and speaker system. 
    Using your domestic hifi system could be OK but you would need to think
    about its input capabilities if you had more than one sound source. 
    Otherwise yet more expense!
    
    The final option I think is to go for a standard electronic piano
    (which will have good piano & harpsichord sounds; full keyboard; own
    amplifiers/ loudspeakers etc) *provided*  it can also control (via MIDI)
    external sound units (for your organ sounds) and accept audio signals back 
    from said units to feed through its amplifier.  I don't know that such a 
    thing exists but its worth looking out for.
    
    As they say, half the fun is in looking round and choosing!
    
    

	I like the suggestion of the Roland U20. Having all the components
in one box is an incentive to me since I'm somewhat limited in space. I also
believe that right now, a full 88 keys keyboard is not that important. We
won't need is for a while. The price (700 pounds) is a bit high, however.
How old is this? Anybody knows what a fair price would be for a used unit?

	If I had the budget, I would go for a full-blown MIDI electric piano
plus an organ box, like the one mentioned a few topics ahead (Allen AE-50 SGU
in note 2780 - looks great, but $2500... plus the piano...gasp!)

	I guess I got the virus... As .4 said, I suspect too that there is no
way out. I don't care, I don't want to get out anyway. And you are right, .5 :
Most of the fun comes from discussing and looking around for what you will
buy.

	Thanks to all who made suggestions. I will be back!

    Hi,
    if you want to play classic music don't start with a small keyboard.
    
    You can get a 88 key master keyboard from Doepfer in Germany for
    about 1500 DM and and expander for about 500 DM to start with.
    
    Klaus

Hi Marc...

I'd suggest the following: ROLAND HP2700 (� 90.000 BEF) combined with the
compact ROLAND SOUND CANVAS (� 24.000 BEF) for more sounds (including pipe
organ).
The U220 (� 45.000 BEF) is also very good, and you can plug in specialized
ROM cards (�3.000 BEF). There is a card for Piano/Organ).
The U220 however is becoming a bit obsolete and is less compact and easy
to use as the canvas...

The HP has few but VERY good sounds: 2 accoustic piano's, a honky tonk piano,
harpsicord (clavecimbel), vibraphone and electric piano.
The Sound Canvas has a lot of additional sounds.

If you don't like the idea of an external module I suggest you try one of
the YAMAHA clavinova's: it comes a bit cheaper than the ROLAND combination
but roland has a much better standard piano and an EXCELENT keyboard...
(That's what my music teacher and my wife tell me...)

I suggest you go and ask for a big demo at:
	MUZIEK & VISIE in Antwerp (Tel 03/236.08.23)
     or MILL'S MUSIC in Wilrijk (Tel ???)
     or ??? in Lokeren (Tel ???)
 (Take the Gouden Gids to fill in the questions marks...)

Anyhow... take your time to compare sound, feeling and ease of use...

Good luck...
Dirk (I'm at 7834)

	It sure sounds interesting, but unfortunately it is far too expensive
for the budget I can allocate to that... I'm more looking at the $1K range,
possibly with second hand hardware... And you know, electronic music in itself
is not the goal (yet). I'm just looking for something cheap, practical, and if
possible funny. The fact that the technology used in a unit is getting old does
not really matter, provided that it fits the requirements.

	Now, if you have some interesting 2nd hand hardware to sell...