Conference napalm::commusic_v1

There aren't any that I'm aware of. I have similar needs & use:

	MX-8 midi Merge facility  (does SYSEX)
	2 Anatek Midi Mergers	  (does SYSEX)
	1 Yamaha Midi Merger      (Gets buffer overflow errors on SYSEX)

I have a need for 5 controllers.

							Jens

    I have the same need - but to the best of my knowledge there is only
    one box that will do this.  It's made by Anatek and I think it's called
    the "Studio Merge" and it's well over $200 (I think more like $350).
    
    The short answer is that there is nothing "simple" that will do this.
    
    I have used a Yamaha MIDI merger and had enough problems with it
    to make it unusuable.  I also have an Anatek Pocket Merge which 
    seems fine for merging the outputs of two keyboards, but not enough
    if you've got more like a full sequence using several channels.
    When I do that, it drops information, often vital things like
    "note offs" and thus I get stuck notes, etc.
    
    The MX-8 can only merge 2 inputs at once.
    
    The only other thing I know of that will do what you want is the Lone
    Wolf system which turns a MIDI network into a local area network.
    That is prohibitively expensive.
    
    I consider it an unfortunate part of MIDI that "THRU" became the
    standard instead of "MERGE".  I don't regard what I want to do (be
    able to control anything in my rack from any of my controllers) to
    be that unusual and yet, it's not easy to do.
    
    The good news is that more and more MIDI products (HR-16, the new
    Roland SoundBrush and SoundCanvas, etc.) can do merging.  The question
    is "how well" (in terms of bandwidth)?
    

    One other approach to this problem is to use a MIDI patch-bay.
    
    I.E. something that doesn't merge but can store routing of in's to
    out's.
    
    The DMC MX-8 will do that.  JLCooper makes some stuff that will do this
    as well.

    Thanks for the responses so far.  For me, I *do* need always-active
    merging of several inputs:
    	Foot pedal (18 notes, like on an organ)
    	An external keyboard
    	A Program-Change unit (or a custom unit when I get around to it)
    
    all going into my Technics KN-1000 keyboard.
    
    Hmm, I'll have to see what I get those Anatek's for ($100?  Less?)
    
    Jim

            Foot pedal (18 notes, like on an organ)
            An external keyboard        
            A Program-Change unit (or a custom unit when I get around to it)
            all going into my Technics KN-1000 keyboard.
    
    Why not...
    
           Pedal Board\
                       ---Anatek---Sequencer---->Technics
           External   /
    
    With some strategically placed PG change commands on the sequencer
    (pg 1 on measure 1, fr'instance), you've achieved all the functionality
    you need as I see it...
    
    Edd

    Jim,
    
    I suspect that the Anatek Pocket Merge MIGHT work for what you're
    doing and they're about $89 each.
    
    So far as I know, the problem I have with them is bandwidth.  I.E.
    if you have lots of things going at once, it drops things on the floor.
    I suspect that it can handle the output of your 10 fingers
    and two feet though.
    
    Don't try to merge the output of the sequencer with anything though.
    
    You may also need to turn off after-touch messages and go easy on
    the pitch and mod wheels.
    
    	db

	WOW, I'm surprised that the merge unit would have a limitation, as
	to what it could merge, with the exception of data coming in
	at rate near the MIDI bandwith (sum of both).

	Does the manufacture specify any limitations?  I don't have
	any direct experience mergers, other than the stuff I do myself
	on the Atari ST...

_John_

    Re .5
    
    Thanks for the suggestion ... but my needs are a little different.  I
    don't use a sequencer ... I send the PG Change commands in "real" time
    as I play live.  I don't pre-program, and use PG Change commands "on
    the fly" to change sounds as I feel the need to while I'm playing.  I
    can see that your suggested idea would work well in other circumstances
    though ...
    			Jim

    re: .7 (Miskinis)
    
    Bear in mind that the Pocket Merge is a tiny little box that runs
    off the low voltage provided over the MIDI line.  No AC adapter
    or batteries.
    
    That would imply that it isn't a very powerful processor with respect
    to bandwith.
    
    Now the Yamaha does get its power from AC but it also is a pretty
    small box.
    
    So far as I know, the DMC MX-2 and the Anatek Studio merge are
    powerful enough so that one does not typically encounter bandwith
    problems.  But they take up a full rack space and cost fairly
    serious bucks.
    
    I'm dissapointed that the MX-2 isn't capable of doing more than one
    merge at a time.  

I've never had problems with the Anateks locking up because of too much
data (the chain starts with an MMT-8 Sequencer merged with a TR-505 drum
machine - I only use the sequencer secition of the TR-505, not the sounds; then
this output is fed to a second Anatak that merges these with the sequencer
in an ESQ-1 - I use both sequencers fairly heavily, I only have to be careful
not to start one sequence before the other finishes, as it tends to surprize
the SGU's, and often the audience since I change patches and set levels in
the beginning of all sequences - a soft chorus section can easily change
into a raspy saxaphone because of this).

I'd suspect that since you are sending NOTE ON/OFF's and program changes,
and I suspect to different MIDI channels (as I do very frequently in an
evenings play), that you won't overrun the Anateks at all. The $80.00 a
pop per Anatek may not feel that cheap, but they work very well. My Yamaha
YMM-2 (merger) used to lock up all of the time then I tried to have both
sequencers running at that same time (I do this because we don't share more
than MIDI channel 10 - drums, and MIDI channel 2 - Bass very frequently - the
ESQ-1 sends out program change info when you select a sequence, so sometimes
starting it isn't neccessary to screw up your patch settings- The wonders of 
random MIDI implementation details will catch up with you eventually).

								Jens

    One big difference between Jens stuff and mine is that I have and use
    keyboards with after-touch.  That generates a lot of data.
    
    As I said before, if you don't use CC type messages a lot - you could
    be OK with these products (i.e. just for note-on, note-off type stuff).

>    One big difference between Jens stuff and mine is that I have and use
>    keyboards with after-touch.  That generates a lot of data.
    
	Thats a valid point. Pitch bends are what caused me to dump my
	Suzuki Midi guitar - the damned thing would send an unbeleivable
	amount of pitch bend data no matter what you did with it (I even
	to the pitch bend arm off of it) - Of course it was all 0001, 0000,
	-0001 (ie, nothing) data, which really didn't show up on the output
	(because this is really nothing when you consider that the range is
	8096 to -8096; at least this is what my MMT-8 tells me), but it sure
	keeps the SGU busy. The other side effect was that if I hit a chord
	while recording into my sequencer, I could easily run out of memory
	before I hit the second chord (it sent that much info, that fast).

	As always, it all depends on what you are doing, and how much data
	you will be sending down the line. Nothing of mine in the playback
	chain reponds to after-touch, and I avoid unneccesarry CC data at
	all costs (other than initially setting volume levels, modulation,
	panning and rest all channels pitch bends).

								Jens

    Thanks!
    
    I think I'll be calling around to find the best price on 3 of the
    Anatek's (or 2 for now)!
    
    Jim

    Nothing to do with the base note, but what the heck! 
    
    If you want to see a controller that produces an unbelievable amount of
    data, try recording a Yamaha WX7 wind controller. I sequenced about 32
    bars of a single line tune once and it used ~25K of memory. After 
    editing out most of the control information the sequence used about
    2-3K. It seemed to be sending out a CC every couple of clock beats,
    responding to every slightest variation in the breath pressure and
    embouchure of the player.
    
    Tony I 
                             

    
    
    
    Was there useful (i.e. greater than 1 or 2 step changes) in the data
    stream or was it "subtle" stuff?
    
    

    ... it was all quite subtle changes, and could sometimes be thinned out
    considerably without noticeable loss of expression from the original,
    BUT it depends a lot on the SGU and patch you are using. 
    
    We have the "recommended" Yamaha module (WT11) which is effectively a
    non-programmable 4-op machine a bit like a TZ81. The patches supplied
    for use with the wind controller are all programmed to respond to these
    small CC controls with small changes in timbre, much more subtle and
    refined than any patches I've heard that are intended for keyboard
    controllers. They sound great when played from the wind controller,
    since the sound is "alive" and constantly changing (just like a real
    wind instrument), but the same patches sound surprisingly boring if you
    play them from a keyboard. 
    
    On the other hand, if you use the WX7 to drive a standard SGU with
    patches intended for use from a keyboard, you can effectively wipe all
    the CC messages without noticing any difference since the patch
    probably wasn't responding to them anyway.
    
    
    Tony I

Hi there !

Just in case someone is still interested, there are two vendors in Germany that
offer a box with 4 in 1 or 2 x 2 in 1 merging capability. It is around 300,- DM
( roughly 200$) depending on the packaging; you can also get the board only. It
is externally powered (wall bug). I have one of those as I have to merge breath
controller, MIDI Guitar and sequencer. Works well for me. If anyone is
interested, I could ask for distributors elsewhere or mail order availability.
In this case send me mail.

There are a few new programmmable MIDI patch bay rack modules that do merging
with more than 2 channels, but they are apparently in the 500$+ range though (I
could dig up a review if someone wants to know). In this category falls a new
AKAI with 8x8 patch bay which may do this also, but which may be cheaper.

	Richard

    MOTU Midi Time Piece (~$400US) has 8 in, 8 out.  Also offers SMPTE
    Sync capability, MTC (Midi Time Code), DTC (MOTU specific).
    
    karl

Correction to my previous note, MIDI Merger (MMG4) is around 200.-DM (~120$)
and is from Doepfer Electronics which is also on the US market now (according
to an announcement in US Keyboard magazine.

	Richard