Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Yo "sakman"-

The fellow at Ted's is John Chenard. I know two folks who've bought from him and
recommend him fairly well. I've begged off buying at least one thing from him
because of a *large* difference in available discount, but I suspect each case
will be different.

I really hope you enjoy your Y-word box, it sounds like a good unit for you.
One thing on the Roland: though I'm not familiar with the E-30 model, every
Roland I've seen has velocity sensitivity, which is a virtual must for
keyboardists. (If you don't know what this is, it senses the velocity with
which the key is struck and allows, but does not require, patches to respond
with a proportional volume.) It doesn't sound like this is worth the price
difference in your case, but it's the type of feature which justifies a price
difference for other buyers. O' course, it the E-30 *isn't* velocity-sensitive,
I dunno *why* it costs more...

Enjoy your intro to the keyboard synth world...

Cheers,
	Bob

    thanks for the note Bob. Yep, my Yamaha does have velocity sensitive
    keys. Even for us novices, I gotta agree that's important. As I learn
    more about it (get more experience) I'll post it here. 
    
    BTW - It was the Roland E5 that I was comparing the Yamaha to.
    
    "sakman" 

Velocity-sensitive and $450?? Y'know, I believe that's the cheapest price
*this* keystroker has seen for that feature. I'll remember that the next time
I see a "Gee-I'm-just-getting-started-don't-have-much-money-what-should-I-get"
note!

Bob

    Now that I fooled around with thing for a few days ( and man am I
    hooked; I could spend all my time playing with this thing if my old
    lady'd let me), I have a question. This unit offers a great deal of
    automation. It has 100 stylings where for each one, you can select an
    intro, a 1st fill in, normal, 2nd fill in, break, and ending. In this
    mode, the bass is playing, horns might be layered in, drums of course
    are in there, you can fool around with this stuff forever making
    different variations. 
    
    My question is this: are these passages (intro, fillins, etc.)
    commonly called or otherwise known as "patches" in the keyboard vernacular?
    I think so, but I'm just checking so as to become less ignorant about
    these things. And when you edit patches, thats when you layer stuff
    or string it together, or some such eh? 
    
    "sakman"
    

    I think someone attempted a glossary of terms in here somewhere, you
    might do a dir/title to find it.
    
    The answer to your question is, NO!
    
    The usual accepted meaning of "patch" is a *programmed sound*.  It
    comes from the early days of modular synthesis when patch cords were
    used to interconnect modules to make sounds.  Of course, some
    manufacturers (can you say Roland) have begun to use the word to mean
    other things...but that's a whole other can of worms.
    
    						Brian

    Most of the old-timers (except for Dave Blickstein who uses Ensoniq
    gear :^)) will agree that a "patch" is the combination of settings 
    that make a particular sound. Like the combination of envelope, LFO,
    oscillator and filter settings that make a synth sound like a violin.
    
    The term is derived from the early synths where sounds were made by 
    routing signals from module to module via patch chords.
    
    Your fills and such are more properly termed "drum patterns".
    
    Mind you, the whole terminology has been smeared beyond all sanity.
    Go ahead, ask me if my DX-21 is multi-timbral....
    
    Edd

> Velocity-sensitive and $450?? Y'know, I believe that's the cheapest price
> *this* keystroker has seen for that feature. I'll remember that the next time
> I see a "Gee-I'm-just-getting-started-don't-have-much-money-what-should-I-get"
> note!
> 
> Bob
    
    
    The BJ's in Westboro, MA, has Yamaha PSR300 for $279. 
    It is a consumer-oriented keyboard (no sequencer, lots of presets, etc.)
    which is velocity sensitive, 24-note polyphony, has 61 good-sized keys
    and midi. Piano sound is decent for the price. Very good as a
    starter keyboard.

    After owning my 400 for two weeks now and having looked into others
    after the fact since buying my 400, I wouldn't hestitate to tell
    anybody to be sure to look into the 400 and 500. There are a few more
    capabilities offered by the 500 over the 400, but most notably the
    difference is reverb. I guess its about a $75 differential between the
    models. When I got mine, they didn't have the 500 but will soon (Ted
    Herbert's, Manchester NH). I'd go so far as to say that $ for $ these 
    units are the best buy on the market for any keyboard at any price. No
    doubt you can spend a lot more for more high quality sounds ( for
    example the Sax Ensamble is nothing great, but the piano and acoutic
    bass sounds are), but the keyword here is value. In my opinion, the law 
    of diminishing return begins after the 400/500. 
    
    Definitley keep it in mind when someone asks you about entry level
    stuff.
    
    "sakman"    

    Service Merchandise has the PSR500 for $399.97 AC adapter $19.97 on
    sale thru December 8, 1991. I called Sam Ash 3 weeks ago for a price 
    and their best was $479 for the PSR500M package which includes
    keyboard, adapter and sustain pedal.
    
    Mike

        While down  at  Daddy's  in  Worcester,  MA last weekend, the
        sales person there  (Matt) showed me a Yamaha PSR-500M.  When
        I asked what the price was,  he  stated that it was $379.00 !
        (That's what he told me !!!) I double checked cause I noticed
        the PSR-300 was $359.00.
        
        If  someone's seriously interested in  the  500M,  then  this
        would be the place to go ! (or at least call)
        
        Matt

    What does the M stand for at the end of the product name??
    
    I have only seen it writen PSR-500.
    
    Price in UK for the 500 is �469 rrp
    
    Arf.
    

    I saw that at Service Merchandise this last weekend. I really liked it,
    for $400 bucks a nice toy.
    
    Scott

    re .10
    
    I stopped at Daddy's in Worcester tonight to check out the 500M. Matt
    said his finger must have slipped a line or two when looking up the
    price. It's really $549. Someone else at the store tried to tell me
    over the phone that the 500M is different than the 500. He thought it
    was the Midi capability. I headed over to Service Merchandise to check
    out the 500. Looks the same, except some buttons are different colors
    and it doesn't have the M after the 500. The sounds are all the same,
    same demo songs, etc. I checked the user's manual to see what it said
    about the Midi. It can receive on all 16 channels, does dynamic voice
    allocation up to 28 voices, responds to note on/off, velocity, volume,
    reverb, pan, and some others I can't remember. It sends data on 1
    selectable channel in normal mode or 2 channels in split mode. The
    manual says it comes with a foot pedal. At Sam Ash, they told me the
    only difference between the 500 and 500M is that the 500M comes with
    the foot pedal and AC adapter. Their price today is still $479. I
    really liked the sounds I could get just fooling around a few minutes.
    
    There is a disclaimer in the user manual - "The demo songs and
    preprogrammed pads may not be able to be duplicated manually"
    
    Mike
    

        Damn !    I  should've  bought the keyboard when I was there,
        cause the saleperson  I  spoke to (Matt was his name as well)
        said $379 for the  500M  that he demo'd for me.  (It honestly
        *was* the 500M that he was showing  me,  cause  I  wanted  to
        check  back  on reviews of the unit from this file  before  I
        bought  anything.    Seemed  like  I  knew  more about how to
        operate the thing that he did, too !)
        
        I might have gotten away with a deal !
        
        Sorry about that. . .
        
        Matt

I bought it from Service Merchandise at the $420 price ($399+19.99 pwr sp).

I love it!

I went back and forth between Service Merchandise and the Daddy's
across the street from them in Nashua.  I got several different
stories from Daddy's including "the M stands for Midi".  (Baloney).

I offered to buy it from Daddy's if they'd match the price.  They
said they would have to "confirm it" ... I didn't feel like waiting
and so bought that night.  Later I returned to Daddy's with the
instruction manual and went through them page by page (it's a big
manual and I skipped lots looking for things like a different line
count in a paragraph).  I couldn't find a thing different except
that the 500M includes a power supply.  Given that Service sells the
correct Yamaha pwr/sp for $19.99 Daddy's didn't have enough edge to
justify their $499 (sale) price.  They finally admitted that "we
can't match that price" and then grumbled "we aren't supposed to
have to compete with the 'departement' stores".  They felt Yamaha
had deceived them.  The midi impl. charts looked the same as well.
I didn't even notice the color difference on the buttons; the
control panels looked the same to me.

A word to the wise ... Many vendors offer equivalent units in
slightly different models to make price comparision difficult.
It is a consumer ripoff, but because they do actually make minor
(the person at Daddy's said "substatial ... well, that's my
definition of substantial") changes.  True for TVs and stereo
equipment --- apparently musical instruments as well.  Radio
Shack and Sears, of course, take this even further and after
changing a couple minor features and or the plastic case, put
their own name on it).

Next reply is a review.

- greg

There'll be less here than in my "financial" review because I'm not
a keyboard player and this is my first keyboard purchase.

I wanted something that could record chord/bass/percussion patterns
for guitar practice.  I've very satisifed with what I got.  The
stored voices and rythmns are varied and the tones are quite satisfying.
The keyboard has 61 full sizes keys with velocity sensing, and a
pitch bend wheel.  103 accompaniements (4 user programable) and
100 voices.  (With split-keyboard and "dual-tone" four voices may be keyboard
active at the same time).  28 multi-timbral polphany; dynamic voice
assignment.  (Sounds great, but some voices use multiple tone generators
and it's possible to get "full" errors simply be playing very rich
two-hand chords with a fancy split/dual voice setup).  Still ... pretty
impressive sounds all-in-all, at least to my naive ear.

Some of you may remember an old contributor to this file, Karl Malik.
Well, he played it for several hours and gave it a very high price/performance
rating, as well as an A+ in its harmony generation algorithms.
He said "pop composers are now dinosaurs" (paraphrased).  My nephew,
also a keyboardest whined, "you don't even have to know how to play
anymore!".

Piano, organ, violins, some wood winds, limited brass, and synth
versions of the above are pretty good.  Guitar was, to me, terrible,
as were the saxes.

Voice control is too limited to satisfy me (LR pan, reverb depth,
volume, and octave) but no control over timbre at all.  Nor any
access to any synthesizer settings.  Keyboard sensitivity is nice.

On the other hand, you can program in a complete accompaniment:
bass line (based on a C chord), percussion, and 5 additional accent/
chord lines, and the unit will then transpose that as you select
chords in "single-finger" or fingered mode including trying to
select nice grace/modulation notes for the bass.

A nice trick to show its smarts is to put the right side of the
keyboard into "harmony" mode (note fingered generates 2 harmony
notes), initiate a right hand chord, and then run through a
variety of left hand chords including suspended, augmented,
dimished, and the usual jazz 6th/7th chords.  It generates quite
reasonable harmonies and recognizes quite a few traditionally
fingered voicings in the left hands (some restrictions where it
can't tell two similiarly voiced inversions apart --- needs to
assume the bass note is the root, though that is only for a few
complex chords).  The right hand harmonies will follow the left
hand changes without even re-striking the chords.  Makes for nice
violin choruses.

Recording: in addition to recording a custom accompaniment, you
can store up to 20 chord progressions and 20 melody lines, and
4 "linkages" (they call it "the conductor") that group or repeat
those any way you like.  So you can gradually build up an introduction,
chorus, bridge, and ending one part at a time and then dynamically
rearrange and repeat them with the conductor.

It also has 4 voice-memory buttons that remember voice chosen,
including dual voices, and pan/reverb/octave/volume settings
for all (up to 4) voices.  And 4 "multi-pads" that can store
short riffs of anything they  keyboard can do, and then yank
them it as fills when you want them, and four "page" memories
that store every setting on the board, as well as the contents
of all the custom accompaniements, 5 melody and 5 chord memory
banks, conductor links, 4 voice memories, and 4 multi-pads.
These pages may be read/written in midi bulk mode.

You can edit a few things but this is really one of the negatives;
you cannot edit most things.  Make a timing or note mistake in a
melody and you have to rerecord at least that melody part again.
You can change things like the voice selected, but only as many
times and at exactly the same points as you selected a voice when
orgionally recorded the chord or melody line.  Nothing's perfect.

Midi out is restricted to ONLY what you play real-time on the
keyboard and NOT COUNTING any left hand single-fingered chords,
auto acompaniment, nor auto harmony.  Since this is the only
midi unit I own I don't care right now, but I expect I will later.

One more ... the accompaiments are broken into 6 parts:

	Intro
	Fill 1 (at end automatically goes to normal)
	Normal
	Fill 2 (at end automatically goes to bridge)
	Bridge
	Ending

You can custom record EACH one of these  ... usually with a 2 or 4
bar part.  They are preset to have interesting (if corny/cliched)
fully orchestrated parts and you can overlay any or all of them.
You can also switch on/off each part individually during play
(a slight fib since two buttons control two at once; don't worry,
it's some engineering compromise/detail).

Again, I'm not a qualified reviewer since I've only tried out a
handful of keyboards in picking this one, and have no prior keyboard
experience (I used the earlier reviews in this note to pick this
one) but I'm very satisfied and a couple of serious keyboard players
I've showed it too have been impressed by how much Yamaha packed into
a small price.  For my purposes (laying down jam tracks) its a great
starter unit (but I wish it had more odd time signatures ... doesn't
even have 5/4!!!), better editing, and more friendly quantization,
but it meets my "needs".  On my "wants" list I'd put richer Midi
out capabilities, a "few" more voices (I'll bet that's always on everybodies
list all the time, right?), and access to at least a few sythesizer
parameters, and ... oh sh*t, I never should have dipped my toe in
midi should I???

Cheers, Greg

    Latest Service Merchandise sale catalog still has PSR-500 for $399.
    Price is good till Dec. 31.

    I predict your MIDIholism has only begun.  Your dereliction will
    probably follow the sequence:
    
    1. Boy, I'd sure like to be able to do more complex or longer stuff.  I
    need a bigger sequencer.
    
    2. You know, what I really need now is better sax/piano/strings/techno.  I
    need an external module.
    
    3. Ooops.  Can't drive get all my outputs mixed well enough.  I need
    a (better) mixer.
    
    4. They call these drums!?!  I need a (better) drum machine ...
    
    5. You know, it still doesn't sound right.  I need (better) FX ...
    
    6. My recordings don't sound right.  Maybe my guitar/voice solos saturate 
    too much or things are just plain grungy.  I need a (better) compressor.
    
    7. With all this equipment running, there's still too much noise and grunge
    on the output.  I need a (better) noise limiter.
    
    8.  Toilets!  I need the sound of (better) flushing toilets for my 
    Next-Big-Hit.  I need a (better) sampler ...
    
    9.  You know, my main synth used to sound pretty good.  But, now it sounds
    scratchy and cheap.  Now I understand why they pay the big bucks for other
    equipment.  I need that new synth that just came out ... [At this
    point, the process basically restarts but with bigger numbers ...]
    
    Steve

    10.  Playback monitors; my recordings sound funny on other folks'
    setups.  I'd better get some flat monitors.
    
    11. Playback amp : my old amp loses on the transients, never noticed
    it before with my old speakers... I'd better get one 3X my anticpated 
    power needs.
    
    12. Playback monitors, PT II : those monitors with the big woofers are
    fine, but I'd better cover myself and get some near-field speakers as
    well.
    
    13. Acoustics Pt. I :  Every time I'm recording acoustically, I hear
    the phone ringing and the toilet flushing.  Time to soundproof this
    room.
    
    14. Equipment clutter Pt I: I don't have enough shelf and table space for
    all this stuff.  I need a large rack to stack it in.
    
    15. Equipment clutter Pt II: Now that it's all racked, it's a pain to
    get back behind the gear every time I want to re-wire.  Time to invest
    in audio patch bays and rewire the setup.
    
    16.  Acoustics Pt. II :  This room is too small !
    
    ;-)
    
    karl

No way!

I mean, like, sure, I was at Daddy's a couple of days later looking
at amps, looking at Alesis Midiverb III's, and asking how to connect
up pedals that could very midi parameters in real time, but, but,
but, I can quit anytime I want to.  I just like the way it tastes.

Honest,

- g

You forgot the computer!  Gee, I really need a (Mac, AtariST, 486) to act as an
unlimited size sequencer.  But gee, now that I have a computer, I'd like to do
some nice scores and individual parts for the band/publication.  Gee, I guess I
need some scoring software.  Well, the dot matrix printer-made music looks a
little grungy.  I need a laser printer.  And as long as I have this computer...
(GO TO NAC::IBMPC  and/or ATARIST and/or MAC...)

Burns

...how much is that?


Chris

    
    17. - divorce papers from that woman you lived with but have spoken to
    	much as the disease worsens.
    
    18. - fire sale in the COMMUSIC For Sale note, after many hours and
    days of "honest honey, i'll quit and spend more time with you, and
    what's the kids name again?".
    
    19. - "hey, anybody got a cheap cz-1 and msq-100, ah, real cheap" in
    the COMMUSIC Wanted/For Sale note.
    
    20. - "he took the package, and is now playing yahaha prs' in the
    harvard square subway station.  Wife got the house and kids"
    
    

RE. .23    
    
>>    18. - fire sale in the COMMUSIC For Sale note, after many hours and
>>    days of "honest honey, i'll quit and spend more time with you, and
>>    what's the kids name again?".
    
>>    19. - "hey, anybody got a cheap cz-1 and msq-100, ah, real cheap" in
>>    the COMMUSIC Wanted/For Sale note.
    
	OUCH!!!!!!    
    
Rodney_who_is_almost_finished_with_his_THIRD_midi_fire_sale_and_who_is_
    really_REALLY_giving_it_up_this_time.    
    

    Yeah, I had to do a fire sale.  Dave Orin (man, I miss him) helped me
    out.  My fire sale was triggered when the family TV blew out and they
    were faced with Sesame Street in black and white.  "See?  Your son still
    knows the colors even though they are all grey ..."  How could I deny
    them and still play with my toys?  Difference now is that it's not a
    hobby anymore.  Yeah ...  that's the ticket!  It's a BUSINESS.  And,
    actually, I stand a chance of making a little money come in ... 
    eventually.  It's a lot of work, but for me taking care of my family
    and treating it as a business rather than a hobby has made all the
    difference.
    
    One thing that I DO notice is that EVERYTHING I do is improved now that
    I can work out the tunes in my head on the synth.  It's like breathing
    for me.  Instead of a compulsion to be suppressed, it has become a
    talent to be nurtured.  Instead of a black hole for the family
    finances, it is becoming a possible source of secondary income.  Though
    we're not talking about much income it's the principle of the idea that
    helps when the wife sees me spend money and put time into this.  By
    treating it as a business I am forced to do the "right" business
    things:  go to the Fall Music Conference, read up on how to be
    successful, watch the pennies, keep long-term goals in mind, do
    financial forecasting and so forth.
    
    Buying your first synth is like going on a date.  You go on a date with
    a lady because you feel like it.  Then, boom.  Marriage.  Bang, bang!
    Kids.  I like being married and I like my kids.  I like MIDI.  Both
    involve long-term relations, in spite of the occasional fire sale.  :)
    
    Steve

    BJ's wholesale has the PSR500 for $399. OOOH if only my wife wouldn't
    kill me.
    
    

    PSR500 is $399 at the Service Merchandise in Somerville, too.

    Talk to me about layering and this machine. Can it, how many?, how
    long?
    
    What does the external sequencer (I guess that is what it was) do?
    
    
    Thanks
    Steve

    The PSR 500 has a dual tone mode where you can layer 2 sounds (eg piano
    and strings). In split keyboard mode you can do dual tone for each side
    of the split (eg left - piano/strings  right - flute/trumpet). All of
    this sounds up to a total of 28 voice polyphony. 
    
    The built in sequencer has 5 tracks for melodies and 5 tracks for
    chordal accompaniment. The auto rhythm/bass/chords can also be enabled/
    disabled to play along with the sequencer. There are 4 "pages" of
    memory, each with the 5+5 tracks.
    
    There are also 4 "pads" per "page". Short sequences (1-4 measures) can
    be recorded here and recalled by tapping the pad.
    
    The sequencer cannot be downloaded/uploaded to another midi sequencer.
    I believe the bulk dump feature downloads/uploads the sequencer data as
    well as all other settings, although I haven't tried this yet.
    
    The PSR500 sequencer is not as sophisticated as most midi
    recorder/sequencers, but is more advanced than most consumer keyboard
    memory record features.
    
    Mike