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Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Title:	* * Computer Music, MIDI, and Related Topics * *
Notice:	Conference has been write-locked. Use new version.
Moderator:	DYPSS1::SCHAFER

Created:	Thu Feb 20 1986
Last Modified:	Mon Aug 29 1994
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	2852
Total number of notes:	33157

2698.0. "Let's do a sampler CD!" by RICKS::SHERMAN (ECADSR::SHERMAN 225-5487, 223-3326) Fri Aug 16 1991 12:20

Guys,

For about $3000 you can get Disc Makers to do 1000 CDs for you; the complete
package (typesetting, artwork, blister packs and so forth).  It's basic artwork
and doesn't include all the goodies.  For that, you'd have to go to about $4000
or so.  But, $3K will get you 1000 CDs with a color photo, some modest inserts,
jewel box and blister packs that can be retailed or proudly given to friends.  
I posted a note in the CD conference to get some idea of what it takes for 
some folks to buy CDs.  It seems that there are probably a lot of folks that 
would not buy a CD from an independent artist that they don't know.  But, they 
would buy a sampler of a *bunch* of independent artists that they didn't know.

So, I was wondering about having us do a CD sampler and possibly check into
retailing it.  Here's what I propose.  The CD should only be 70 minutes long
since that seems to be about what folks expect from a sampler.  Each of us 
should plan on buying time on the CD on a per-minute basis.  The cost of 
generating a digital master as well as other costs will likely drive up the 
cost to around $3500 (my guess).  Based on that, let's plan on $50 per minute 
for the stuff that you want to put on the CD.  Thus, if seven of us participate 
and each of us gets about 10 minutes it will cost each of us about $500. 
Fourteen of us at 5 minutes each will be about $250.  I would imagine that
those who participate will actually see a cost between those two figures for
the initial batch.

Now, because we are working together, I suggest that we also include all pieces
on the CD by mutual consent.  That is, each of those who plan to contribute 
will have one vote.  A majority vote is needed for each piece to be included.
Whenever there is a question about what is to be on the CD it is handled by
majority vote.  However, there will also need to be one person that is 
empowered to make the final decision which all will abide by so as to avoid
bottlenecks due to disagreement.  We should probably plan on a two-song limit.  
Actual limits will probably depend on how many folks participate, how much time
is left on the CD and and upon other mutually agreed upon limitations as they
come up.

I suggest that we plan on getting a group color photo done for the cover.  I 
think that can be done for about $100, so I'm planning on folding that into the 
costs of doing the master.  I have a friend who's a pro photographer and can 
probably help us with this.  The insert will be minimal, but will probably 
be room to list the songs, artists, playing times and have just a short blurb 
about the group as a whole.

Once we have the first batch of CDs, then we split them up according to money 
paid by each of the contributors.  Thus, if I had 7 minutes of music and paid 
$350 I would expect to get back 100 CDs.  Now, the cost per CD for every 1000 
drops dramatically after that.  I think it goes to less than $2 per CD.  But, 
we'd need to do other coordination for subsequent batches since not everyone
may want to participate at that point.  If we get into distribution then only
those who participate in the costs of doing the batches will get royalties.
We'll probably have to draw up some sort of written agreement about that before
we make the master.

We MIGHT be able to get a distributor to carry the sampler.  If so, there might
be other coordination we could do.  There could actually be a small return on 
the investment over time.  It still requires that we share costs up front to
make each new batch of CDs.  To get started with this I would probably donate 
from the original batch, say, half of my disks for use in promotion and 
distribution.  Might go to my local music store to see if they would like to 
carry them.  As a group we might even get some publicity (with Digital's 
approval) that could boost sales.  (Any of y'all want to be on any TV or radio 
talk shows?  I did this during the elections last year.  It's fun!  I'm sure we
can line interviews up.)  As a group we would get a lot more attention than 
any of us would individually.  And, get this, it might even be good PR for 
Digital!

So, what say ye?  Any other ideas?  Shall we do a sampler CD?


Steve

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
2698.1		MANTHN::EDD	He's an artist, a pioneer..	`Fri Aug 16 1991 12:30`	4
	....sounds like fun. Probably just what I need to finish the fusion piece I've been working on for years.... Edd
2698.2		SALSA::MOELLER	real boats rock	`Fri Aug 16 1991 13:22`	16
	Steve, Perhaps it's the traditionally low volumes for the COMMUSIC tape series, but I feel some trepidation at throwing more money around at this point. It's clear that the joint offerings would be of high quality, especially with the ballot system; it might also be possible to find one or more distributors that move techno music to carry it. The reimbursement scheme would be cumbersome, and favors those with longer pieces. Also, insert the standard "don't publicize COMMUSIC because we exist in a sort of limbo re employee-related activities on corporate resources" statement... signed, dubious
2698.3		RICKS::SHERMAN	ECADSR::SHERMAN 225-5487, 223-3326	`Fri Aug 16 1991 13:41`	43
	If there is a better way to handle reimbursement I'm all for it. I think that for the first batch of 1000 we should stick with the per minute rule since so much of the initial cost involves production. For subsequent batches, however, the costs and royalties (if any) should probably be distributed according to investment rather than according to the length of the pieces. For example, if only two of the guys pay for a batch of 1000 then those two should share all costs and reimbursements. Hey, db! Didn't you do some sort of checking with the PR folks some time back? What do you think they would say about a bunch of us doing a sampler for retail? If it's too sticky, we might have to actually call ourselves something and be careful never to mention Digital. Mr. Blickstein! Fill us in ... BTW, another thought that occurs to me is that for each number we might be able to get one line that each contributor would have control over to make a comment, leave a phone number, advertize other publications or whatever. I really like the idea of putting together maybe sort of a "Best of COMMUSIC I" or similar titled CD sampler. Doesn't have to use stuff that's been on Commusic tapes but that could be a reference point. If it's good enough, there could be a retail market developed for further efforts, either from the group or individually. It's important that the numbers selected be agreed upon by consensus so as to keep the quality as high as possible. If its not as high quality as we can do, it will be a waste of time. This is a bit different from the Commusic tapes since though we really like and appreciate high quality, a submission doesn't need to be screened. In that format it just needs to be representative of ones work for feedback and enjoyment, IMHO. Here, we're talking putting out our best possible efforts. There is certainly risk. But, by working together the financial risks are minimized ($300 to $500), the publications risks are reduced (CD is a preferred format, samplers seem to sell well), the chances of being heard are much better (high quality format with possibly wide distribution outside of our little community), we get to stroke our egos ("Here's is a CD that the boys and I did ...") and we get to give away cheap gifts ("By the way, this CD retails for $14.95 and is your Christmas present."). Steve
2698.4		RICKS::SHERMAN	ECADSR::SHERMAN 225-5487, 223-3326	`Fri Aug 16 1991 13:52`	7
	Oh, yeah. I think we can avoid potential conflict of interest situations by meeting after hours (Tom Foolery's?), conducting business by regular mail and personal phones and by making sure we don't advertize using Digital's resources. I have no interest in doing anything that would have even the appearance of impropriety. Steve
2698.5		SALSA::MOELLER	Entropy Thrash	`Fri Aug 16 1991 14:57`	3
	uh, about that cover photo.. I live 2000 miles away ! karl, in a little insert box in the corner
2698.6		RICKS::SHERMAN	ECADSR::SHERMAN 225-5487, 223-3326	`Fri Aug 16 1991 16:35`	3
	Hmmm. We could make a big cardboard cutout of you ... Steve
2698.7		DREGS::BLICKSTEIN	Just say /NOOPT	`Fri Aug 16 1991 17:10`	14
	Steve I think there's one fairly big problem with this. I think they'd tell you that if you use the COMMUSIC notesfile, or the enet system to organize this, than you would be guilty of a sin that people HAVE been fired for (using DEC equipment for non-DEC business). I think the chances of people getting into trouble are small, and each person could decide for themselves, but I have to tell you that I don't think I would do it. I also suspect that they wouldn't want any indication that this was in anyway sponsored by Digital.
2698.8		RICKS::SHERMAN	ECADSR::SHERMAN 225-5487, 223-3326	`Fri Aug 16 1991 22:25`	4
	Boo! Hiss! Well, I guess I kind of shoulda known ... <sigh> Steve (who doesn't want to get fired and whose music has been used for and on behalf of Digital)
2698.9	Just can't get away from it	DREGS::BLICKSTEIN	Just say /NOOPT	`Sat Aug 17 1991 01:39`	2
	And to think that one of the MAIN reasons I gave up moderating was because I was tired of playing Sgt. Pepper all the time...
2698.10		TERSE::ROBINSON		`Tue Aug 20 1991 13:38`	8
	Long shot of the day: I ain't an expert, but I read the multi media conferences on the NET. If such a CD were somehow used to show off the audio portion of the planned workstations, you might have something here. I like your enthusiasm Steve, but I think you're looking at an uphill battle. Dave
2698.11		RICKS::SHERMAN	ECADSR::SHERMAN 225-5487, 223-3326	`Tue Aug 20 1991 14:20`	6
	I'd still like to do it, but responses I've gotten both on and off line indicate it would probably not be worth the effort. So, I'm back to looking to do a professional-quality cassette and possibly a CD later on. Meanwhile, we still have the Commusic tapes! Steve
2698.12	Y^	MAJTOM::ROBERT		`Wed Aug 21 1991 11:04`	24
	If you forget about the distribution part of it, I don't see why it can't be done. That is, if it's a "not for profit/not for promotion" type deal. That would mean either giving away the CDs or never charging more than the "per capita" value, which would be what, around $3.50. It would also mean not promoting the individual artist by not including phone #'s, etc. I know DEC has strict rules about the use of the notes conference, but there's a fine line here. I mean, this conference as well as others have organized get togethers, "jams", and collaborated on "producing" something, aka the COMMUSIC tapes in the past. Just because we got organized thru the conference shouldn't automatically put liability/partial-ability on DEC should it? I mean, if I met a friend who sits in the cubicle next to me and we collaborated externally, is DEC partial because we "organized thru their facility?". Or if we called each other over the phones externally, does that make the phone company partial because we used them as a medium to organize? Just trying to shed some opto'mizm on this. Rebuttles? -TR
2698.13	The real issue	DREGS::BLICKSTEIN	Just say /NOOPT	`Thu Aug 22 1991 10:42`	15
	Robert, There's not much of a liability issue. The issue is stockholder's finding out that DEC money/resources/etc is being used to fund such frivolous non-essential stuff as non-work related discussion groups. And the risk there is some embarressment to DEC and, almost certainly, the end of non-work related notesfiles such as COMMUSIC. What makes the COMMUSIC tapes different than this project (as described) is that they are limited to COMMUSIC noters. Just giving you the full story - you come to your own conclusions.
2698.14		SALSA::MOELLER	Blinded by Psions	`Thu Aug 22 1991 13:46`	8
	<<< Note 2698.13 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Just say /NOOPT" >>> >What makes the COMMUSIC tapes different than this project (as >described) is that they are limited to COMMUSIC noters. Unfortunately. And that should read "limited to [a subset of] COMMUSIC noters". At least as far as reviews go.. karl
2698.15	...	NUTELA::CHAD	Chad, ZKO Computer Resources	`Thu Aug 22 1991 16:46`	20
	If the organizing stopped right here on DEC stuff and was turned right now to private off-hour means then there would probably be no problem. My dad, also a DECcie, started a series of replies in a certain religion conference. After a long while, he decided he wanted to write a book. He wanted to use all of his replies as the basis for it. He asked the DEC legal folks about this as the stuff was originally on DEc equipmnet. They said that as long as he didn't use DEC equipment any more (ie, from thtime he startde to have financial or business goals) he was okay to get his stuff out of the conference and use it for the basis of his book. That would mean to me that this initial discussion would be okay as long as we stopped now and started using pribvate mmeans. Chad who_think_it_is_an_interesting_idea_but_has_little_to_ contribute_now