Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    SOME of the pieces exist, but not enough to do what you want.  It is
    true that there is a myriad, nay, a plethora, of music printing
    software that runs on graphics-capable computers.  However !  This 
    software assumes the existing performance is a MIDI performance, not
    an analog recording.  Your note:
    
   >..produces the sheet music.  If there is such an animal, can a simple
   >cassette be set up with music already on it and produce the sheet music?
    
    This is where technology fails.  In order to score a 'simple cassette 
    with music already on it' would require first digitization, then 
    compound discrete pitch extraction beyond most mainframes.. and then
    once the pitches and durations were identified, plot the events into
    musical notation.  Nope.  Sorry !
    
    What *I* would do is scout around for someone who produces lead sheets
    for songwriters.. if the music is really as simple as you say, a person
    with a cassette player, a good ear and some manuscript paper is the way
    to go.
    
    karl
    

    Hi Michael,
    
    	I believe such systems exist, but are very expensive.  The
    ability to "play a song" on a keyboard, and procude sheet music
    has been around for several years (over 10).
    
    	These systems REQUIRE that the source is a keyboard.  There
    are several 'cheap' software systems for just about all computer
    platforms that allow you to take MIDI data (from a keyboard, guitar,
    drum, horn, or ANY MIDI controller) and score it.  Depending on
    your requirements, these systems work pretty well.
    
    	The HARD part is scoring WITHOUT MIDI data.  In theory, an audio
    source piped into a "pitch to MIDI converter" will produce the MIDI
    data needed.
    
    	I have no direct experience with converters, perhaps someone else
    can elaborate...
    
    _John_
    

    My understanding is that a pitch-to-MIDI converter will only work if
    you have a tape with only one pitch playing at a time and at relatively
    slow tempos.
    
    Steve

    Yes, "pitch-to-MIDI" converters are NOT capable of doing what .0
    wants.
    
    They are basically monophonic - intead to play guitar leads or run
    vocals through - not polyphonic things like piano pieces.
    
    I think the best advice given was to find a professional scorer.
    
    What they will probably do is listen to the piece, play it on a
    MIDI keyboard, and have some software create the sheet music.
    
    BTW, in case you don't understand why a score can be produced from a
    MIDI keyboard and not a tape...
    
    The MIDI output of a MIDI keyboard isn't "music" like the output of
    a tape deck.   Your tape deck records music by converting the waveforms
    that make up the sound into various electronic/magnetic/etc
    representations.  
    
    The output of a MIDI keyboard isn't "sound".  Whereas a tape deck
    would output the note "A" as a 440 HZ waveform, the output of the
    MIDI keyboard is a digital message that said "the A key was pressed".
    
    Thus in analog (tape) form, one has to derive what notes are being
    played.  In MIDI form, that information is directly represented.
    
    Thus you can see how much easier it is to produce sheet music from
    MIDI than from tape.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    	db

    I seek the answer to a similar question, maybe someone could help.  The
    note I posted in the Amiga notes file (I already have an Amiga) is
    appended.  I would appreciate a tutorial on what exists in the
    professional world as well, regardless of computer platform.  How is
    this done at the pro publishing houses?  What kind of input device do
    they use (special computer keyboard, etc.?).  What were the earliest
    mechanical systems, i.e., were there any "music typewriters?"
    
    Thanks
    
    John
    
             <<< BOMBE::DISK_NOTES$LIBRARY:[000000]AMIGA.NOTE;2 >>>
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Note 4715.0                  Music scoring package?                   No replies
KALI::VISSER                                         12 lines   1-MAY-1991 09:51
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    I searched all of the notes that I could find with the strings "music,"
    "midi," and the names of music applications that I am aware of, and
    still can't resolve the question I have; can anyone provide a concise
    answer to the question:
    
    	Is there a music-scoring software package available?  I would like
    a complete "musical score publishing package."  I would also like midi
    support, in and out,  for a velocity sensing keyboard.  
    
    Thanks,
    
    John
    

	There is a book on music engraving by Ross in paper from Hansen.
	Music Engraving and Publishing, that I read in 1977 to hel pme
	copy music by hand.
	The professional world of TV and movie underscoring hand-copied
	everything very very fast at $5 or $10 per page.
	They made the parts for the players this way, until the last few
	years.  It is becoming more common to see computer-printed (laser
	printed) parts.  Note that computer-printed parts general have more
	errors in them than hand-copied parts, it's not perfect.
	There are always limitations.  Anyway, MacIntoshes and Professional
	Composer might be a hot-shot combo.  Amigas and Dr. T copiest is
	another, but I havn't figured out how to make parts from it, but it's
	only copiest junior.
	Professional publishers used to use press-on letters.  Before that
	for 100 years or more they used direct copper plate engraving.
	Before that they used typeset music.  If you see a hymnal with
	staff lines that are broken every note, that's typeset.
	Occasionally modern scores in stores are photoengraved hand-copies,
	or even ozalid prints.  Some cheap classical scores appear to be
	photo-engraved from old editions.
	I have to believe that modern popular sheet music is computer set.
	There are professional printing systems better than laser printers,
	but those cheapskates probably laser-print it.  With more errors than
	hand-copied, too.
	A dot-matrix 24-pin printer can print music well enough for
	quick use, if the ribbon is new and a dense mode is used and the
	symbol size is big enough.
	Tom

    Wow, what a great conference...to have so many responses so fast.
    Thanks everyone.

    Actually the person has left my church, not the city so I DO have
    access to her, we were just wondering if the 'TAPE' approach was
    at all possible.

    Tell me if I'm wrong, given the fact that I may be purchasing
    an Esoniq ESQ1 keyboard or something similar soon, I should be able to
    connect this up either directly to a computer with the correct
    software or do I need the MIDI in between.  This person has
    agreed to play the music either directly to tape or through the
    keyboard.

    THANKS EVERYONE....this is all so new to me.

    michael

    
    Now if you can get your pianist to play her stuff on a MIDI system, you
    can get the sheet music you're after much more easily.
    

Re .7:

In *most* cases you'll need an add-on MIDI interface; the exception is the
Atari ST, which has a built-in interface. In case you haven't shopped computers
yet, the main choices are:

PC or PC clone
Atari ST
Macintosh of some kind
Amiga

I'll be a *good* boy and not get on my Amiga bandwagon- if you browse the
notesfile I'm sure you'll find ample, er, "discussion" of comparative merits
of various computers for electronic music work. The plain fact is that you can
get the job done with any of them, and the choice can come down to some basic
personal preferences.

One wag (JohnDvorak?) some time ago came up with a list of computers and a
corresponding list of personality types likely to own a particular computer
brand. As I recall, the I*M owners were typically your run-of-the-mill
pin-striped Republicans, Mac folks were power-tie-wearing yuppies, Amigans were
idealists who buck the odds to back their own convictions, and (honest, guys!)
I don't recall any mention of the Atari ST folks.

One caveat you should note well:

***BEWARE!***

You are now entering a highly addictive source of great enjoyment, which can
often lead to irrational expenditures!

That said, welcome- you'll have a ball!

Cheers,
	Bob

Not to change the topic again, but the title for this topic reminded me of 
the following that I'm not sure has been posted here...

Apparently Passport Designs (makers of Master Tracks Pro sequencer and Encore
music printing software) and some other company have teamed up to try selling
a new sheet music distribution system.  The non-Passport company is going to 
use the Encore music publishing technology in some machines that they'll install
at stores.  Using MIDI hardware, the potential purchaser will be able to hear
the arrangement before paying.  If you like the arrangement, you pay the clerk,
the clerk pressing some sort of Print key, and your sheet music is printed on
the fly.


    Less inventory for the store and more "try before you buy" for the consumer
(in theory).  I'll be interested to see one in action.  I am hoping that this 
will make it easier to obtain less popular music since the store doesn't have 
to invest too much in inventory.  (Of course, the song would have to be popular
enough to have someone commit the time to make a good MIDI sequence for it.)

- John -

    Regarding WHAT brand of computer to buy, we have a long-standing,
    highly-revered, concise method of determining that here.
    
    Step 1.  Go out and find what software offerings suit your needs
    	     the best
    
    Step 2.  Buy the machine that runs the software you want.
    
    We have attributed this rule to Len Fehskens, a respect COMMUSIC
    colleague, hence in other notes in this conference you may see
    this referred to as "Fehsken's Rule".
    

    I'm surprised that Fehsken's Rule is the classic "buy the machine that
    runs the software that solves your problem." This rule is just a bit
    newer than "Never volunteer to throw the first spear at the mastodon."
    Having enjoyed Len's contributions to COMMUSIC and elsewhere over the
    years, I'd have guessed that Fehsken's Rule is "Never make an entry in
    a notes conference unless it's intriguing, accurate, and definitive."
    
    - Hoyt

    Michael,
    
    With access to your pianist, what you want is easy - I do it regularly
    to produce church choir arrangements and piano accompaniment scores.
    
    It takes 4 components + piano player. In my case these are:
    
    1. C-Labs Notator (midi sequencer and scoring package)
    2. Atari 1040
    3. HP Deskjet (produces excellent quality sheet music, but cheaper
    printers would also do.)
    4. Yamaha HS8 (or other midi keyboard device)
    
    The process is:
    
    - Play the piece on the keyboard, while recording via computer
    - Play back computer recorded music, and correct any mistakes using the
      score editor; add other parts as required, from the keyboard.
    - Add title, dynamics, lyrics using score editor
    - Preview page layout, select fonts etc using score editor
    - Print
    
    For a simple piano or vocal arrangement of say a 3-page piece of music
    and lyrics this represents an evening's work, once you are competent with
    the system - less if all you want is the piano arrangement, and your
    pianist is fairly error-free!
    
    You can do it, and it's fun!
    
    Regards,
    
    Ken

    I know this "rule" has been attributed to me, but it's so obvious that
    I can't honestly take credit for it.   I think this attribution may
    have become one of those "folk legends".  Has anyone been able to
    definitively demonstrate that I was the first to say this somewhere
    in COMMUSIC?
    
    I'll admit to saying lots of other things, and while I clearly believe
    the "rule", I'm not sure I'm its source. 
    
    len.
    

    I'm afraid, Len, that even though you may not deserve it, you have
    become a legend ...
    
    Steve

This is only peripherally related to the basenote, but since (a) the basenoter
is well on his way, as determined by mail and previous replies, and (b) the
digression's alrady begun, what the hey.

The old rule of picking the software you want in order to select the hardware
is indeed a truism by now, but I'd like to point out that it's also a gross
oversimplification. Unless you foresee only using your computer for one
application, and moreover never updating that application, the selection process
is vastly more complex.

Assume you foresee using your machine for applications you can't even identify
at the present time. Assume as well that you *do* have several different
applications that you know you'll need. Take it for granted that you're going
to rely on some of this stuff enough that you'll eventually either upgrade
your original packages or replace them with more powerful ones.

You'll find that unless you're buying a computer as a "point-and-shoot," static
appliance that you need to take into account:


(a) All aspects of the hardware, including aspects of its manufacturer's
reputation (service, longevity, upward compatibility), available operating
systems (multitasking, scalability, user-(gack!)friendliness, availability of
third-party peripherals, local dealers, and probably even more.

(b) The *general* software outlook, including consideration of whether there is
a solid "stable" of developers in the significant areas you're likely to delve
into with your machine, as well as the simple consideration (from the original
"rule") of whether there's a single great package out there *now* which meets
your needs.

(c) The user community you'll become part of, including (to what degree it's
appropriate for you) whether there are local users' groups which focus on your
intended uses, or whether the user community at large is heavily enough into
areas important to you that the future seems bright for software in that area.


Heck, I know that even this only scratches the surface; there are probably
entire books written on the topic! Sometimes I just think it's a good idea to
pop simplistic bubbles which can lead novices astray instead of helping them. In
this case, I think the main point is that selecting a computer is by no means
a simple decision, and it's wise to kick back and devote some serious thought
to it.

BTW, Legend Len, no offense taken, I hope. And michael (the basenoter, remember
him?), I hope this info is useful to you. I bet you'll enjoy the transcription
process so much you'll almost forget why you started it!

And now, for my new, patented, *vertical* smiley face:

  _____
 / . . \
{   .   }
 \ \_/ /
  \___/


Cheers,
	no_crick_in_my_neck_Bob

    re: .16
    
    > Unless you foresee only using your computer for one application,...
    
    Please note that .11 (deliberately) refers to software in the plural
    sense ("software offerings you need").
    
    Perhaps the rule should be reworded from "Buy the machine that runs
    the software you need" to "Don't buy a machine that doesn't run the
    software you need"?

Topic 1089 is dedicated to computer selection and
   "The Rule Concerning Computer Selection".

/Mitch

	Bah, phoohey, humbug, etc.

	Buy the wrong machine ("platform" these days) for all the wrong reasons,
		(double negative, but it holds)

	face the challenges head on,

	Make yourself at least two new problems every day.

	forget about off the shelf solutions, there aren't any,

	roll yer own

	be a hacker

	be proud of your failures

	run into problems as HARD as U can.

	meet those "insurmountable opportunities" head on - and fail.

	Puzzles are pastimes.


	R
	
{what day does friday come on this week ?}

    re .19, Reg Burgess
    
    .. and spend your time debugging, hacking, puzzling, failing, facing
    those two new problems every day, 
    
    And exactly HOW MUCH MUSIC GETS MADE ?
    
    oh, gotta remodel my studio, rewire the house, buy new gear, learn
    it...
    
    karl

    There is a corollary, sort of.  It is, first figure out what types of
    music you want to play.  Then, get the instrument(s) you need to play 
    them.  I dub thee "Fehsken's Corollary".
    
    No wonder so many "consumer" keyboards get bought and then sit in
    the closet.  The folks that buy them want to sound like their favorite 
    music stars.  They get wowed by the things.  Take them home.  Play the
    demo for family and friends.  Then, stick it in the closet.  Problem
    was that they didn't know what they wanted to do or what they needed in
    order to do it.
    
    Steve
                                            

re                      <<< Note 2626.20 by SALSA::MOELLER >>>
>                               -< humbug indeed >-
    
>    And exactly HOW MUCH MUSIC GETS MADE ?

	errr,  "MUSIC" ?   Whassat ?

	R

    I have to note that I bought my own home computer, an Amiga 1000, based
    on its inherent technological neatness.  At the time I bought it, there
    was virtually no software available for it.  For the next two years the
    situation looked bleak as Commodore tottered on the edge of bankruptcy
    and all the world raved about the Atari ST and Macs.  Only in the past
    few years has the Amiga software situation approached diversity and
    availability.  But now the 1000 is threatened with obsolescence by the
    500 and 2000 family. 
    
    I have never for one moment (or more) regretted my decision.
    
    len.