Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    I forgot to discuss "how much $" it might take to design/build custom
    stuff like this.  For someone that knows the hardware/software aspects
    of MIDI well, be able to build simple, custom gadgets fairly cheaply,
    or would there be alot of "up front cost" given that these wouldn't be
    mass-produced items?
    
    	-Jim

    is the ANATEK Pocket Sequencer capable of sending SYSEX ?  might be a
    cheap/easy way to go..
    
    karl

	Any sequencer can accomplish this task.  There are small units (Korg's 
SQ8 comes to mind).  With a sequencer, particularly one that stores multiple 
tracks addressible by individual track buttons, you could have multiple SYSEX
codes available to you at a moment's notice.

    I agree that the sequencer would be an alternative at least worth
    investigating.
    
    Barring that, I would assume you'd have to find a hobbyist who'd
    be willing to do it "just for the fun of it". I was privvy to the
    entire process of watching a little MIDI gadget move from idea to
    specs to design to manufacturing and fairly successfull sale, and 
    don't imagine a "one shot" deal would be financially attractive.
    
    Given that your need is pretty application specific, getting a box
    built that served these needs explicitly may bar its' use on a
    more generic platform. This would limit the marketability of the box
    and nake it yet more unattractive to a small firm.
    
    Be that as it may, I wish I could get custom stuff built too, so I know
    how ya feel!
    
    Edd

       If anyone does persuade a hardware hacker to investigate this
       area, Electronic Musician published a series of articles in the
       latter part of 1990 on building micro-processor based MIDI
       goodies.  My failing memories indicate that the series focused on
       an obscure Motorola chip and included source code.  Did anyone
       ever do more than glance through this series?

       

The best platforms for "custom" MIDI devices are personal computers.

You spend a big lump sum up  front  to  get  the computer and programming
software, but  then  inventing  and  building  custom  "gadgets"  becomes
relatively easy -  do  everything  in software.  You can use the computer
keyboard as "hardware buttons" etc.

Just my 2 cents.

/Mitch

    But you really want is a very inexpensive pc! Perhaps there's a cheaper way.
    
    A few years ago, I had a VT180 driving a homemade Z80-based box. The
    box had an SIO (2 UARTs) for the MIDI interface, and a *tiny* amount of
    RAM (I think it was 4K). I downloaded programs from the VT180 to the
    box. When I upgraded to my Macintosh, I ported the software, but pretty
    soon abandoned the box and used the Mac directly for MIDI control...
    It was all rather kludgey.
    
    But I have wondered a few times if it would be worth having a box that
    you could download (via sysex) that had a pile of memory in it... You
    could program your own sample player, waveform generator, basically
    custom instruments. I never looked very far into analog-to-digital
    converters, but that can't be too hard these days, it's probably all in
    a chip. 
    
    So, maybe in a few more years, when micros are VERY fast, and memory is
    VERY cheap, there might be a market for "MIDI micros" No screen, no
    diskdrive, so it's cheap. You download it with whatever instrument you
    want... Upgrading your studio might be merely upgrading your software. 
    
    In principle, it could be done today, but I fear that it wouldn't be
    "cheap" and it may not be fast enough to do all the processing you
    would need.

They even had PC boards and pre-programmed EPROMS you could buy for the
projects.  Of course if you're going custom you'll need custom firmware too.

PAIA's (Craig Anderton) MIDI-to-CV board looked like it could be the framework
for more midi fun for serious digital hardware hackers.

    THanks for all the commentary on my note.  Re. the suggestions of a
    computer or a sequencer, yes I can see how in a general way these would
    provide the most flexible environment or solution.  However in my case
    what I want is *so* simple that having a
    screen+keyboard+diskdrive+floppies+cables, would be overkill.  The idea
    of a small sequencer *might* be closer, but also seems to be "more than
    I want".  I guess that, since I don't know much about digital circuit
    design, I'd imagined that what's need to do what I described in .0
    might be about the size of one of the POCKET gadgets.  Maybe not?
    
    I've seen devices used to program synths, or control FX boxes, that
    were supposed to be general-purpose MIDI things.  I remember a couple
    that had lots of faders, and a few buttons.  I don't know any brand
    names or where to find these now - does anyone know of any of these? I
    thought Lexicon might've had one.
    
    For my particular application, I want to be able to INSTANTLY, i.e.
    with ONE button-press, make my change in sound, in live performance, in
    the middle of a phrase in a song.  That's why I was envisioning very
    small, simple gadgets.
    
    Any more comments/suggestions?
    
    	Thanks,
    	Jim

I'm not much of a bithead, either- Electronic Musician routinely runs DIY
(Do It Yourself) articles focusing on what they call SPUDS- can't recall the
translation, but basically simple products you do yourself- but I don't feel
comfy with the level of detail they provide for a non-initiate. I can solder
*iff* you show me where!

The IMP (Integrated Music Processor?) was one such project, which seems like
it's intended to be expanded. You might want to look it up. They've had at
least one expansion after the original article, to add a "panic button" which
shuts off MIDI *everything* to be safe.

In the commercial market, there are some products which I think can do all you
want, but also do a lot more- and cost more, of course. The J.L. Cooper Fader
Master is more for continuous controllers, but I think will do what you want.
I've also seen at least one MIDI machine which professed to be able to generate
any MIDI event you want at a preprogrammed SMPTE time. Not *quite* what you
asked, but maybe it'd fit. I don't recall the name/brand, but it was in the
Sam Ash catalog, and I could look it up. Both these things are in the $300
range, BTW.

Cheers,
	Bob

    Maybe you could explain exactly what you are trying to do with this
    sys-ex message.  Exactly what does "registration" refer to (I know what
    it is on a pipe organ, curious as to this MIDI beast's definition)?
    
    Waitaminnit, don't you have a Korg T-something?  Does it allow saving
    sys-ex from external devices to disk?  If so, all you need is to make a
    disk containing the sys-ex message you need; you could enter the
    message by generating it with a computer (there are many P.D. MIDI
    Utilities that let you do such things, some are available here on the
    net) and reading it into your Korg....
    
    							Brian

    Jim,
    
    Reading between the lines, are you talking about the Yam CVS-10 organ
    box??
    
    I'm looking into purchasing one of these, myself. When I get hold of
    the MIDI implementation chart, I hope to finf that you could, with
    sysex commands, in realtime, change the drawbar settings. Is that what
    you're thinking of. I assume, just for switching to the various presets
    in RAM/ROM you don't need sysex, but only Program change.
    
    _IF_ the MIDI impl. allows the sysex to adjust drawbars online I have
    plans to build a small box with a number of sliders, where each slide
    is programmed to transfer either a CC (Continous Controller) message
    with one variable or a (not to long) sysex with one variable according
    to the movment of the slider. In that case you can have 9 sliders
    representing the 9 (how many on a B3??) drawbars on the REAL thing.
    
    Please, tell us more what you like to achieve.
    
    Torbjorn
    

    RE .11, .12
    
    Yes, I'm working with the Yamaha CVS-10 "drawbar organ sound GU", see
    my other note on this box.  The MIDI implementation chard does NOT show
    anything about how drawbars might be changed in real-time with SYSEX.
    
    What I'm wanting to do is call up a new REGISTRATION, which requires a
    sysex code, at the push of a single button.  Using computers, disk
    drives, etc. isn't good enuf (even using my Korg T2) 'cause I can't get
    my SYSEX MIDI message sent out quickly, with one button press.  Yes,
    .11,
    "registration" is like on a pipe organ: in this case, "registration"
    for upper, lower and pedal keyboards for a Hammond/drawbar sound. 
    Program Change does work on the CVS-10, but not as I need it: Program
    Change only calls up the voice (program) for ONE keyboard, and it does
    it in what seems to me to be a non-standard way.
    
    So, I still need to find a MIDI-hardware-hacker who'd take my $$ if
    s/he'd build me this thinamajig!
    
    		-Jim

Re: .13   Jim, I understand that a computer is not what you want...
          but I _must_ argue the point you made...

>    Using computers, disk
>    drives, etc. isn't good enuf...'cause I can't get
>    my SYSEX MIDI message sent out quickly, with one button press.  

A custom program running on a computer can most certainly send out any
message you want at the press of a button.

...sorry for interrupting your discussion...please continue without me...

/Mitch

    Re:.13
    
    So, the sysex command is somewhat like a "performance setup". (one of
    the presets for upper, lower and pedals as well as, I suppose, some
    other parameters?) ??
    
    How many bytes are needed (maximum) in the sysex command for this 
    operation ??
    
    Torbjorn
    

 re: .13 et al

	You SURE that Yammybox wants SYSEX to change drawbars in real time?
	Most SGUs seem to accept nonregistered parameters instead, maybe you
	should check to see if that's what this box wants. I confess I'm not
	familiar with that particular MIDI implementation.

	The JLCooper MIDIfader thing I got does sysex, nonregistered params,
	registered params, clock delays, etc. and it's assignable to faders.
	I use it for real time mucking with parameters on multiple 
	programmable SGUs (my ESQ-1 comes to mind, as does the EPS, etc).
	There is an example for setting up SYSEX control with an FX box.

	Might want to check that out.

	/pjh

    Re .14
    I should have been more clear on my needs/non-needs: using the disk
    drive in my T-2 isn't "good enough" (for me) 'cuz I can't accomplish
    what I want with one button press in the middle of a tune, and a
    computer isn't good enuf (for me) (or rather, a computer is TOO good)
    because I don't want to haul one around to gigs for such a simple
    application as this.  Yes, I realize that a computer is the "ultimate"
    in customizability (what a word!) but it's not for me ...
    
    Re .15
    Yes, a "registration" is like a Perf Setup or like a Korg "Combination"
    in that it includes voices for various MIDI channels, plus about
    10 other parameters, like speed/depth of Leslie, depth of Reverb, etc.
    The command to "call up" a Registration is (I think) 2 or 3 bytes.
    I don't have the midi implementation chart with me.  
    
    Re .16
    There is NO WAY (as I mentioned in .13) to control the drawbars in
    real time - as nice as that would be, it's not mentioned in the MIDI
    Implementation for this unit, so I have to assume it's not doable.
    
    -------------------
    
    It's interesting (to me) how, for such a SIMPLE gadget, there seems to
    be no SIMPLE solution (well, until I find someone to build it); there
    are plenty of less-simple (and therefore more flexible) solutions,
    but they are all "overkill" IMHO for this application.  
    
    		-Jim

    If the SysEx for the registration change is really just a handful of
    bytes, then you might want to look for a detailed spec sheet or demo of
    the Lexicon MRC (MIDI Remote Controller).  It's like the FaderMaster
    that was mentioned in earlier notes but it can store some short,
    user-defined SysEx message that can be transmitted when a button is
    pressed.
    
    	I believe there are 4 buttons and each could be programmed to send
    either a normal MIDI message or a user-defined SysEx message up to some
    stated length.  (I seem to remember thinking that the limit was ~25
    bytes per message.)  The unit also has some MIDI sliders to send
    continuous controller info.  You can get the MRC for ~$300US from many
    catalog places.
    
    	A more expensive route (but conceivable if you're needing a new
    controller) is the Roland A-50/A-80 line.  These controllers let you
    program a SysEx message with a patch such that the SysEx message is
    sent out whenever the patch is selected.  The downside of this is that
    there is no on-board way to enter the SysEx.  You have to plug some
    device that sends the SysEx into one of the MIDI ins.  Not a problem
    for machines that send out their dump code from the panel.  In your
    case, you might have to find someone with computer and/or sequencer
    that could send out the MIDI codes you want.  { A caveat to this is
    that I seem to recall losing my SysEx when I did a dump of my A-80,
    cleared the A-80 memory, and reloaded the saved SysEx.  I think the
    standard dump doesn't save the SysEx you've got in its memory though
    there are separate SysEx commands to dump the SysEx memory.  Pardon the
    recursion. }
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    - John -

    Thanks, I'll have to check out that Lexicon device.  Although it's
    a bit more expensive than a "home-MIDI-hacker-built gadget", it seems
    that it might be sort-of what I'm looking for (and then some).  Maybe
    its extra flexibility and features are such that I can find uses in
    addition to those I mentioned in earlier notes here.
    
    I imagine it needs a "wall bug" power supply   :-(
    
    -Jim

    Now, I've also got the CVS-10. According to the MIDI implementation
    chart the unit will accept Program Change messages 1-16.
    
    A Program Change command changes (from what I have seen) the
    registration number within the selected registration bank.
    You can not select a registration patch within another bank without
    changing the bank number manually.
    
    Do you need more than 16 registration setups for your live
    performance?? In case you don't, it seems to me, by carefully
    programming the needed patches into the 16 registration memories within
    one bank, you don't need any sysexe messages, but only program changes.
    
    There is, however a sysexe command listed in the "Electone Common"
    section. I'm not quite sure (more hands on experience is needed) if
    this has the same effect as the P.C. messages or if you can select
    different banks as well. I've only tested the "Tremolo/Chorus" sysexe
    command yet. 
    
    Torbjorn
    

	Kawai has just introduced a new unit that is similar to JLCooper's 
MIDIFADER, its called the MM16.  Programmable faders for all sorts of 
purposes...  Lists at about $350.

	I really think you're going to have a hard time finding someone 
to build something like you want.  Most of the people in this file have plenty
of stuff to do just doing music projects.  And I think even if you *do* find 
someone, the cost would be prohitive.

	Its been my experience that you can always find a way to do things with
the equipment you have if you just think about it long enough and use some
ingenuity.  I could recount story after story in my studio where there was a 
problem that seemed like a show-stopper and that it would require some new
"box" to fix it (or replace it).  But at times when the money has run out and
I just couldn't afford a new "box", given enough thought time, I found the
solution was just under my nose - often a better solution than if I had gone
out and bought something!  And its always so much more rewarding when you work
it through this way.

	

re: Lexicon MRC

    I checked the brochure at home and it claims it can store some SysEx 
commands up to 10 bytes each.  These commands can then be programmed to be
sent out a MIDI out port via button, foot pedal, etc.  I presume the 10 byte
limit is because they are expecting one to mostly initiate small commands like
data dumps.

re: Kawai MM16

    I talked to a dealer about this on Saturday (Music Workshop; Salem NH).
They expect to get one in the next week or so.  They had the glossy brochure
and it (liek the MRC) slaimed to be able to store and send some short, user-
definable SysEx strings.  I believe they'll be selling it for $300US without
any haggling.  In my opinion, if you don't have other Lexicon equipment, the
MM16 may be a better choice since you get 17 faders (for use as a volume mixer
for 16 MIDI channels plus a MIDI "master volume") that can also be put in a 
mode where there is a dedicated fader for 16 different continuous controllers
(like channel aftertouch, portamento, etc.)

   I think I started a note on the MM16 last fall and put the MM16 keyword
on it.  If you want to spend the money, both the MRC and the MM16 may get you 
the needed functionality and more.

- John -

re: .22  (MM16 features note)

    I guess I didn't create a keyword.  Sorry for the bad info.  The note 
describing the Kawai MM16 was entered in the MIDI Mixing note.  It can be found
at note 1189.24

- John -

    Keyword MM16 added to 1189.24...
    
    Edd