Conference napalm::commusic_v1

I would suggest you go and look at the most expensive instruments
you can find. The salemen and women here are also apt to be the
most knowledgable. Talk to them pick their brains make them explain
why their modest five figure instrumentis worth more than $200
upright. Then decide what features you can live without and find
and instrument you can live with.

By the way there are several good music companies in Boston with 
showrooms. I think Stienwayis still near the Boston Common. Now 
watch its been gone ten years and everyone wil know how out of 
date I am. %^)

     My advise:  Consider used.  A $3000 used steinway will
     sound, play, and retain value better than a new $3000 Yamaha
     etc. Especially true in uprights I think.  You can get used
     pianos from dealers or you can contact piano tuners (ask
     around). If you have it checked out and/or refurbished there
     is a good chance you will get a better piano used. Even
     the woodwork (furniture aspect) may be better on older
     pianos because wood is much more expensive now.
                        
     My 2 pennies
     Dave

I agree with .2, especially if price is a major consideration. It's *quite*
common to find pianos that are free or almost so if you can do the moving. The
lowest prices I've seen on "halfway-decent" Yamahas floats around the $2000
mark, BTW. If you *do* go used, however, I'd suggest either going *hardly* used
or having your choice carefully evaluated by a piano technician or experienced
pianist. No point in saving moolah and still getting burnt!

Cheers,
	Bob

	I don't know if they are still doing this, but for time immemorial
	Baldwin was selling it's studio uprights from Tanglewood at the end
	of each season (won't keep there through the winter). The deals
	were pretty good for a very solid piano. Not that I ever bought one
	(I bought a kawai electric grand instead - it's easier to record).

	I assume Baldwin is still in the business (Haven't heard otherwise),
	maybe someone can correct me.

	/pjh

    Don't let her do it to ya !  Disadvantages of acoustic are myriad; 
    heavy.  must be regularly tuned and action regulated.  large.  worst,
    you HAVE to listen to inept scales and beginner playing.
    
    Advantages of a GOOD electronic piano; light.  doesn't have to be tuned
    or regulated.  ever.  small, portable.  CAN BE USED WITH HEADPHONES.
    
    best of luck. karl

How good an electronic piano do you need to get to have the feel and key-velocity
to loudness mapping of even a moderate acoustic piano?

Burns

    re .6.  About $2K worth.  In my experience, the integrated
    'furniture-look' units cost about that if you want good sound, and you
    can probably get close to that price with a KX-88 plus sound module
    combo.
    
    Check out the Korg furniture type electronic pianos around the price
    that you are thinking of paying for an acoustic.  
    
    	Eirikur
    

    Kurzweil themselves make some gorgeous 'apartment grand' ('console' to
    you and me) pianos with nice shells.
    
    I'm partial to hi-tech flat black metal.
    
    karl

	I completely disagree with Karl; flat black is too hard to see 
	in the dark,
	and the black buttons are hard to find in *bright* light, but
	that may be the only option (I painted some buttons with white
	enamel).

	Acoustic pianos for the home are NOT worth it.
	1.  every piano is different.  No one can compare the "mapping:"
	of velocity from electronic keyboards to acoustic keybaords.
	However, some good keyboards, say a used Elka 88 or something
	(ca. $600, no sounds, just MIDI) and a used MKS-20 (ca. $400)
	may be lighter than *most* acoustic pianos, but some pianos
	out there will be even lighter than that! (My acoustic 
	piano (sold) had extra lead weights on the keys,so I really 
	have to adjust).  Many electronic keyboards have *adjustable*
	velocity mapping.  Some may have adjustable physical feel,
	I'm not sure.  Some real pianos are heavy touch, some real
	pianos are light touch; most electronic ones feel light.
	It's true the lever arm is different; most electrics don't tilt
	up towards the player (the keys slant upwards toward the player
	on acoustics) I think.  The fulcrum on an acoustic is moving;
	the key actually rocks, not pivots; electronics usually pivot.
	electronics don't have the feel of the hammer hitting the
	back check, or the mechanics of the repeating action (a kludge
	if there ever was one), if you miss that stuff.

	Don't buy the mythology of the piano, although that's all it
	has left!

	I thought acoustic pianos of quality Appreciated, not depreciated,
	but they have to be real quality to do that.  Quality pianos
	cost a fortune to maintain; grand pianos are hard to vacuum
	(the dust from under the strings on the sound board).
	
	Tuning 4 times a year at probably $50-$60 now for acoustics,
	vs. none for electronics.  vacuuming electronics is easy.
	Moving, when you move, is hundreds of dollars for the smallest
	acoustic; just ordinary cost for electronics.

	An old acoustic might have ivory keys; save an elephant, buy
	an electronic.

	Tom

Gotta add my .02 - I play synth, pipe organ, and acoustic piano. I've played
piano for over 30 years. A piano is a piano, and a synth/electric piano is not.
One can be "close enough," or different in ways you don't consider inferior, but
to me they are definitely *different* things.

How? Touch, sound, gesture, even feel. When I pound my piano, it doesn't
*budge.* When I stomp on the sostenuto (sustain) pedal just as the dampers are
coming down, I get an interesting harmonic echo that's foreign to the digital
domain. When I play a cadenza, the key velocity may be high, but the volume
isn't. (And all keys today are made from "fake" ivory, so electric pianos kill
just as many plastic elephants as acoustic ones!)

I personally think that electric pianos are great, and in many cases end up
being preferable depending on your needs/wants- I just think they're *not*
pianos, and if your wife wants an acoustic because of the valid differences,
that's what she wants.

Cheers,
	Bob

	I have written many special effects in my music, including
	snapping the soft pedal with the damper down to get the strings
	to resonate (Siddhartha, ca. 1976).  Actually, the piano strings
	resonate all the time, even a little with the damper up, and
	electronics don't do that, but the odds are very few people
	know the difference, they're buying mythology.  A pianist
	who has never concertized probably doesn't care about the
	things that are different, except for the status symbol of an
	acoustic piano.
	
	Oh yeah, that piece also had a notation for "catching" struck
	notes just barely hit with the dampers, plucking strings, 
	touching the strings to get a harmonics, etc. etc. etc.  A cheap
	synth has far more variety of controllable sounds that a $10000 piano.
	A piano has a number of fixed sounds with only flexibility proportional
	to your trickiness.

	(If your key velocity had been higher, it would have been louder;
	a glissando or a trill is played quietly the same way slow notes
	are).
	Tom
	

    Hi..me again
    
    This is great...for clarification, i did check out a bunch of digital
    (electric?) pianos in home furniture type cabinets. I found several
    that I quickly liked. The interesting thing was, I liked them for their
    electronics. Multiple piano sounds, reverb, chorus, headphone jacks
    etc. not to mention MIDI. My wife is approaching this from a completely
    different angle, while she liked the sound of the digital piano in her
    opinion it simply wasen't a REAL piano. A REAL (her words) piano was
    big, stable (as much furniture as music) and "didn't need to be plugged
    in".
    
    After several visits to look at digitals, I still couldn't generate any
    interest. My wife never has a problem with the electronic toys I buy,
    so after some thought i figured if this is what she really wants 
    why not (we could use the piece of furniture anyway).
    
    We're still looking..based on some of your comments I think we will
    look into some used pianos while checking out the new ones...
    
    Thanks for your thoughts..please feel free to add more, i'm getting
    a great education.
    
    
    
    PS: Anyone going to NET u next week in Boston, how 'bout an informal
        get together one evening?? Faces behind the names etc.

    
    Hey, how can you play John Cage on an electronic piano?  No sounding
    board to pour buckets of nuts and bolts on! ;-)
    
    -Ed
    

       My ex wouldn't touch the Yamaha electric if she had to do
       anything to the synth setup.  When I reconfigured so that she
       could just turn the piano on and play she was much more likely to
       actually use the piano.  But, based on the paragraph below, I
       think you've got a good attitude.  Maybe she'll migrate to synths
       later...


>    After several visits to look at digitals, I still couldn't generate any
>    interest. My wife never has a problem with the electronic toys I buy,
>    so after some thought i figured if this is what she really wants 
>    why not (we could use the piece of furniture anyway).

> Hey, how can you play John Cage on an electronic piano?

Simple. You forget to plug it in. Step right up and perform your very own 
version of 4'33".


Chris

If you have space you can some times find good deals on huge grand
pianos. People don't have room. Not to long ago a beautiful carved
walnut grand (I'm talking serious relief carving not engraving) went
for $12 (plus moving) at an estate sale. The auctioneer said nobody wanted
it although it was perfect because an aparment wouldn't hold it.

    
    	In the very limited "just wishfull thinking" shopping I have done,
    you will not get a new piano, upright or grand, that you may truely
    like for under $5k.  Used reconditioned uprights can be had for
    anywhere from $800 to $1800 or so, and certainly qualify as very
    heavy pieces of furniture.
    
    	Me, i went the kindergarten route for $35, but i really do need
    to replace the keypad. Oh, and that cracked soundboard provides
    for an interesting array of sounds depending on the relative humidity!
    
    	bob
    

    I have been playing all kinds of music on all kinds of keyboards for 43
    years.  A beginner who doesn't start with a digital sampled 88-key
    spinet-type is nuts.  I highly recommend the Technics Model 6.  You can
    find one used at a much cheaper price than any comparable acoustic
    piano.  Its sound, touch & feel is as close to an acoustic as any
    beginner ought to be concerned about.  One person can lift it.  You
    don't have to tune it--unless you want to tune it to another
    instrument--with a twist of a knob.  Oh, of course, it will not be
    admired as a piece of furniture.  
    
    When I first played a keyboard that had the sound, touch & feel of an
    acoustic, I asked the dealer why anyone would ever buy an acoustic
    again.  I couldn't believe his answer then, but your wife's attitude
    confirms the truth of what he told me.  He said....most people are
    really looking for a piece of furniture.   
    
    If an instrument is what you are looking for, go with a digital
    sampled.  Trust me, you'll fall in love with it.

Gee, I didn't mean to start a "years-of-experience" war here- the next thing you
know, some wag will be claiming 79 years playing and telling us *all* what the
*real* truth is!

I was just trying to point out that it's a learned skill, not an inherent "part
of the art," to adapt to different touches. I think it would be disheartening to
sound good at home, then go to a friend's house and have a hard time adjusting
to a real piano's touch. Since the stated purpose of the note was to obtain
help in picking a good acoustic, I was kinda surprised at the number of notes
trying to change his (i.e., his wide's) mind. (Probably shouldna been- this IS
COMMUSIC, after all!)

I actually would prefer a digital instrument myself- but then, I'm not the
person buying the instrument. (Not yet, anyway.)

Cheers,
	Bob

> I think it would be disheartening to
>sound good at home, then go to a friend's house and have a hard time adjusting
>to a real piano's touch

	But you can't avoid that with an acoustic piano, because every
	acoustic piano has a wildly different touch, some extremely light,
	some like molasses, some like rocks.
Tom

Re -1:

Of course you can't avoid it- but you may as well minimize the problem. The
difference between acoustic piano touches is *usually* less than the difference
between any acoustic and an electric. (Yes, I know this is *not* an absolute,
but it's generally true.) Coupling that with a stated preference for an
acoustic...

    Well, there's NOTHING like sitting down in front of a well-tuned
    high quality grand.  Everytime I see one I'm "drawn" by an unseen
    force into playing it.
    
    Don't ever go with me into a mall that has a piano store.  You'll
    spend about 1 hour waiting while I try out the pianos.
    
    However, I had a pretty good quality spinet ("Janzen" brand, REALLY)
    and a good quality electronic piano (Roland RD-300).
    
    I kept the acoustic because I thought "even though I have the electric
    there's nothing like playing a real piano".
    
    Well, I sold the acoustic.   Even a fine quality upright doesn't even
    remotely compare to the sound I can get out of my electric.
    
    I'd rather play a sampled 1924 Steinway than an Janzen spinet.  I
    didn't play the acoustic more than once a year after I got the Roland.
    
    That's just how things came down for me.  Your mileage my vary.

    I agree about acoustics. I still have never found any combination of
    MIDI controller and SGU that can come close to the dymanic range of
    even a mediocre acoustic. (The previous statement says nothing about
    sound quality.)
    
    	In choosing an acoustic you should give very serious consideration
    to getting a used piano. You will get the best value for your money if
    you can come up with the means of moving it yourself. 
    
    	There are several things to consider in buying any acoustic. First
    is the type of piano. There most common pianos are spinets, consoles,
    uprights, and grands. I strongly recomend that you do *not* buy a spinet.
    
    	Grand pianos are generally distinguished by their horizontal harp
    assembly and the curve in the side. They come in several legnths: baby
    grand, standard grand, and concert grand. They are less popular because
    of the amount of floor space they take up.
    
    	Uprights have a vertical, or upright, harp.
    	If you are of average height and can see over the top of the piano
    while sitting at it, it is a spinet. If you can't see over the top
    unless you stand up partially it is a console. If you need to stand up
    all the way it is a full upright. The significance of this is the
    positioning of the key levers and hammers. There is an ideal position
    for the hammers to strike the strings. If there strike in the exact
    middle there will be little harmonic content in the note being struck.
    The ideal position is to strike the string (very roughly) 3/4 of its legnth.
    This adds interesting harmonics. The problem with a spinet style piano
    is that since it is so much shorter, the hammers have to be moved way
    down the harp assembly to a position directly in front of the keys. The
    end result is that the key levers have to be made much shorter just to
    fit. This limits the throw of the keys and adversly affects the
    playability of the pianos action. 
    
    	If you are going to buy and acoustic it is important to find a good
    piano tuner. Whenever the piano is moved it will need a few days to
    settle into its new surroundings, and should then be tuned. Stop into a
    few music stores or inquire with a few piano teachers to get
    recommendations on good tuners.
    
    	Proper environment will help keep your piano in tune. Ideal
    conditions would provide a stable temperature and humidity. If possible
    locate your piano under a thermostat, as that will probably be the most
    stable temperature spot in your home.
    
    	If purchasing a used piano don't be afraid to open it up and
    inspect the action. Play all the notes and look for sticky keys. Listen
    for evenness of the notes. The same amount of pressure across each key
    should yield the same volume from one end of the keyboard to the other.
    Play loudly on all keys an listen for any telltale vibration the might
    reveal a cracked sounding board.
    	Inspect the hammers. Look for deep groves in the hammer ends that
    might require corrective action ($) from a skilled piano tuner. Look
    for broken strings (unlikely). Inspect the action on each key looking
    for cracks or warped wood. (I bought a used piano once and found a
    mouse nest complete with dead mouse under the keybed! So that was what
    was causing that funny smell, and driving the cat nuts!)
    
    	If you do all of this you will probably be quite satisfied with
    your purchase. If I had the room for an acoustic I would almost
    certainly buy a used one. If you take enough time to look you will
    almost certainly find a wonderful piano for little more than the
    trouble to move it. Don't just look in the ads, put out the word with
    everyone you know. It is quite common to find a perfectly good piano
    doing little more than collecting dust and holding up the family
    pictures. Often your inquiry will spark the interest in getting rid of
    the piano when the "seller" didn't even think of "selling" it.
    
    	Good luck,
    	Mark

    re: .23
    
    I agree with perhaps everything in your note in the absence of any
    monetary considerations.
    
    However, when you include monetary considerations, I come to the
    opposite conclusion.
    
    Basically it is true that an electric grand can't sound like a real
    piano.  However, you can not expect to find a piano for under $1800
    the will sound nearly as good as an $1800 Digital Piano.
    
    That is, I GREATLY prefer my RD-300 to any acoustic that is even
    remotely in the RD-300's piano range.  I greatly prefer my RD-300
    to ANY spinet, console or upright I've EVER heard.
    
    Sure, I miss having an acoustic, but if it came down to that kind of
    money and I had to choose between an acoustic and a digital sampled
    piano, I would go for the sampled piano without thinking twice.
    
    	db

re: .24

	db, you and I are in closer agreement than you may think. I don't have
 an RD300, but I really like the action on them. Someday I may even buy one.
 My point in my reply was that it is not difficult to find a very good used 
 acoustic selling for very little on the used market. If you consider new 
 acoustic vs new electronic gear there is no question that the rig you use 
 wins hands down.

	Actually in many ways comparing acoustic to electronic is an unfair
comparison. A 10 year old piece of electronic gear is almost certainly obsolete.
Whereas a 10 year old acoustic will usually get better as the wood ages. On the
other hand a new piece of electronic gear, in any comparable price range will
offer far greater functionality for the money than an acoustic. Still I repeat
the I have yet to play any electronic rig that come close in *dynamic range* to
an acoustic. For example with an electronic rig I a may be able to play from
pianissimo to fortissimo, but on an acoustic I can easily go from triple
piannissimo to triple fortissimo. I stand eager and willing to be disproved on 
this! The best combination that I have tried for dynamic range was a Kurtzwiel
MIDIboard into a Yamaha PX1000. Even this was not as satisfying as the dynamic 
range I could get on an acoustic. It may be a fundamental limit of the velocity
mapping (127 granularity), or just limitations of the velocity curves available.
Maybe my early classical training on good acoustic pianos has made me too fussy.
It's just that whenever I sit down at a real acoustic it is like a breath of 
fresh air. I feel orders of magnitude more expressive at an acoustic. Having 
said all this *PLEASE* prove me wrong! I'd love to find a rig that can satisfy
my dynamic urges ;-}


	The main point that I was trying to make in my previous note is that,
 given the decision to buy acoustic, a little bit of knowledge about them can 
 assure great value for the money when buying used.

	regards,
	Mark

    > If you consider new acoustic vs new electronic gear there is no
    > question that the rig you use wins hands down.
    
    Well...  ;-)
    
    What I had intended to say is that I believe you are not likely to
    find any acoustic piano, new OR used, for around the price of a
    digital piano that *I* would prefer the sound of to a digital piano.

	OK db if you go on *sound* I will not argue with you. Even if I wanted 
to, *sound* quality can be a very subjective opinion.

	A lot of what I had to say was motivated by some anecdotal situations. 
When I was in high school, I tried a beautiful grand piano at a friend's 
grandmother's house. This was a beautiful piano. The action was as smooth and 
soft as water. It was doing a wonderful job of holding up the family pictures.
	The next month I learned that she had sold this magnificent thing for 
$75!!!!!

	I had aother friend who found out about someone wanting to get rid of 
a few-years-old Yamaha grand. She got it for $200 plus the trouble of moving
it. Between the time she put down her downpayment, and the time she picked it up
others found out and were offering far more, but the person she had dealt with
felt it was only fair to give it to her since she had been the first with the 
cash.

	I once found a perfectly servicable upright for $75. My brother found 
one in better condition for $15. There are a lot of people out there that have
pianos who would really rather have the space.
	I am looking forward to the day when I have a large enough room to put
in a grand piano. Count on me finding a used one. Properly treated they just 
keep sounding better. 

	I will not, however, debate sound quality with you. That could be
a whole 'nother rat hole. ;-) Besides FWIW I have too much respect for your 
keyboard ability, having heard what you can do on tape. Maybe some day we can
"hoist a few" offline and debate this further... :-)


	regards,
	Mark

	What's the point of having a 9-foot concert grand in a one-bedroom
	apartment with a reverb you wouldn't be caught dead using 
	on a commusic tape?  What's the point of having a 6-1 grand
	in a living with a reverb you wouldn't be caught dead with on
	a commusic tape submission?  other than touch?
	There's no sound quality there.  An electronic keyboard with
	a quality piano patch with a nice used srv2000 in headphones
	sounds much better than a 6-1 in a living room.
	Sound quality of electronics also apparent dynamic range has a 
	lot to do with the amplifier and speakers.

	I personally would like to deploy a large electrostatic driver
	horizontally.  A big part of a piano sound is the audience getting
	almost no direct sound, but most of it reflected off the floor,
	ceiling and lid if lid is there.  If you set up an electronic
	one with an electrostatic speaker where the sound board goes
	it would pick up the room the same way.  Interesting test.

	How much are you willing to spend on oil heat and humidifiers and
	4 tunings a year in upkeep?

Tom	

re:.28

>>VICE::JANZEN "Tom MLO21-4/E10 223-5140"              22 lines  15-FEB-1991 15:54
>>                    -< sound quality? what sound quality? >-

  Like I said, I am not going to debate sound quality.



>>	What's the point of having a 9-foot concert grand in a one-bedroom
>>	apartment with a reverb you wouldn't be caught dead using 
>>	on a commusic tape?  What's the point of having a 6-1 grand
>>	in a living with a reverb you wouldn't be caught dead with on
>>	a commusic tape submission? 

  	If you have to ask, it is unlikely that you would ever understand.

	Oh what the heck...! Hey if acoustic pianos lack so much sound quality
as you seem to suggest, Tom, why are so many manufacturers trying to duplicate
it, and so many consumers willing to shell out so many greenbacks to buy
*approximations* of it???

	The timbre associated with a piano is a complex and wonderful thing
that, as you so astutely observed, involves the acoustics of the room in which
it is played. It is a slight digression to note that many of the finest pipe 
organs were not only designed for the particular room in which they were to be
installed, but some actually *had the rooms designed specifically for them*!
I think that you would agree that the room interaction can play an important
part of the overall sound.

	Please understand that I never intended to convey the opinion that
acoustic was inherently better than electronic. Each has it's place, but
*neither can be a substitute for the other in all cases*.
                                              
	I see no technical reason why an electronic keyboard couldn't be
designed with the dynamic range of an acoustic. However I think you would
quickly find that the difficulty and expense of such an approach would be
excessive. To truly and accurately duplicate, say, a fine grand piano, would
require duplicating each note. For those not familiar with the construction of
pianos the lower notes are made up of two strings, whereas the higher notes
require three. The complex interaction of these strings not only with each
other but with all the other notes on the harp assembly, produces the unique
timbre of the individual instrument. This timbre changes not only with the note
but with the velocity at which the hammer strikes the string! This means that
to truly duplicate the sound of a piano, not only would you have to duplicate
the sound of each note, but the *sound of each note at each velocity*! To
complicate things even further the interaction of one note with another can
vary wildly depending on whether or not the sustain pedal is being held down.
If it is not then the notes played are affected only by the other notes that
are being held whatever they are. 
	The amount of memory or processing, I think you would agree, would be
excessive. You would probably also need a new MIDI protocol with a higher
velocity resolution than 127. The point of all this is that the sound of a
piano, or just about any other acoustic instrument, is far more complex than
your comments seem to allow.

	It this all just BS? No! this is what makes the piano such an
expressive instrument! I very much doubt that someone as into music as yourself
doesn't appreciate the value of expressiveness. Maybe you get yours through
aftertouch and pitchbend etc... Please don't berate those of us who appreciate
the ability to draw expressiveness out of an instrument by touch alone.

>>	There's no sound quality there.  An electronic keyboard with
>>	a quality piano patch with a nice used srv2000 in headphones
>>	sounds much better than a 6-1 in a living room.

	That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. However, why are so
many others, concert pianists and the like, not switching to electronic pianos
if they are soooo much better?

>>	Sound quality of electronics also apparent dynamic range has a 
>>	lot to do with the amplifier and speakers.

	Sure, I can get P (pianissimo (soft)) to F (fortissimo (loud))
 or I can turn up the volume and get F to FF. What I want is PPP to FFF! and
 I want it without fiddling with the volume control on the amp.


>>	I personally would like to deploy a large electrostatic driver
>>	horizontally.  A big part of a piano sound is the audience getting...

	I hope you do try this. I'd like to know how well it works. I hope
it does work well! I'm all for new ideas in producing music.

>>	How much are you willing to spend on oil heat and humidifiers and
>>	4 tunings a year in upkeep?

	Give me a break, it's not that nearly that bad. With any reasonable
temperature control (say a thermostat set to livable conditions) and a
reasonably well designed piano, one tuning a year would be plenty. How much are
you willing to spend on buying new electronic gear every year? Gear that, I
might add, depreciates in price at about 25-50% per year.

	Let me state once and for all I LOVE ACOUSTIC. I ALSO LOVE ELECTRONIC.
EACH HAS ITS PLACE! Live and let live. Is this a great country or what? You can
express your OPINION and I can express MINE.

	Live long and prosper!
	Mark
                                                          

    Mark,
    
    My intention wasn't really to disagree with you.
    
    In fact, I sorta view my preferences as being potentially out of the
    usual.
    
    Usually after about the 3rd of 4th reply I think of how I "should"
    have said it in the first place:
    
    	I view my RD-300 Digital Piano as an EXCELLENT recording of an
    	OUTSTANDING piano.  It does NOT however sound like a "live" piano.
    
    	What I am saying is that I prefer an EXCELLENT recording of an
    	OUTSTANDING piano to a very "live" sound piano, even a very GOOD
    	live piano.
    
    	I prefer it not only for recording, but also for playing.
    
    So monetary considerations aside, about the only thing I'd "trade"
    my digital piano for is a real piano that sounded as good as the
    one my digital piano was sampled from.
    
    I quite expect that other people would feel differently, and I know
    that playing mostly digital piano has had the effect on me that when
    I get to sit down at a real piano (even just a "good" piano), it often
    takes heavy equipment to pull me away from it.
    
    In fact, I even think that if you could produce a live sounding digital
    piano, I'd still prefer the "real thing".  It has something to do with
    the wood, the felt, the steel and the indescribable intoxicating
    effect that Steinways, Falcones and Bosendoerfers have on a player.
    
    Sorry that I sounded like I was "debating".   I know, understand and 
    agree with what you're saying.
    	
    	db
    
    p.s. The idea of hoisting a few beers sounds REAL good - let's do it
    	 sometime.

    Anybody in the simulation business quickly learns that the more
    accurate a simulation tries to be, the more necessarily it becomes the
    thing being simulated.  People who build simulators make tradeoffs
    about which differences are worth eliminating and which aren't. 
    
    This discussion is, in many respects, pointless.  These are different
    instruments.  The sound of an electronic piano can be just as complex
    as that of a real one, and just as impressive.  What it really is is
    different.  Similar yes, but not the same.  Any argument about which is
    "better" is not much more than an argument about personal tastes.
    
    People have had this same debate about pipe organs vs. electronic
    organs, electric guitars vs. acoustic guitars, electronic drums vs.
    acoustic drums, period instruments vs. modern instruments.
    
    Tom didn't say that acoustic pianos lacked sound quality, he said (or
    implied) that for most people the differences were not meaningful.  You
    have to have known Tom for a while to appreciate what a considerable
    change of position that is.  But I'll bet that even Tom would
    acknowledge that there *are* useful things a "real" piano can do that
    an electonic simulation can't.  But the converse is just as true.  One
    person may not value the ability to pitch bend a piano note, or use
    aftertouch to modulate it (both undeniably expressive capabilities);
    another may not value the ability to play more than 16 notes at a time
    or excite sympathetic vibrations in undamped but unstruck strings.
    
    And I have to agree with Tom - putting a 9 foot concert grand in a one
    bedroom apartment makes about as much sense as keeping a tiger as a
    house pet.  Great fantasies, but not terribly practical.  An electronic
    piano or an orange tabby, while considerably less romantic, satisfy
    most people's needs more than adequately.
    
    Lest anyone accuse me of lacking discriminating taste, let me say that
    I consider the modern piano a magnificent instrument, much as I do the
    steam locomotive.  I hope they don't become extinct.
    
    len.
    

>                    <<< Note 2565.29 by KEYBDS::HASTINGS >>>
>            -< You play what you want, I'll play what I want. OK? >-
>
>re:.28
>
>>>VICE::JANZEN "Tom MLO21-4/E10 223-5140"              22 lines  15-FEB-1991 15:54
>>>                    -< sound quality? what sound quality? >-
>
>  Like I said, I am not going to debate sound quality.
>
>>>>	What's the point of having a 9-foot concert grand in a one-bedroom
>>>	apartment with a reverb you wouldn't be caught dead using 
>>>	on a commusic tape?  What's the point of having a 6-1 grand
>>>	in a living with a reverb you wouldn't be caught dead with on
>>>	a commusic tape submission? 
>
>  	If you have to ask, it is unlikely that you would ever understand.

Uh, I have performed my music on acoustic grands in a variety of spaces, 
although the Hudson libray had only an upright.  ALso in school and at lessons
of course.

>	Oh what the heck...! Hey if acoustic pianos lack so much sound quality
>as you seem to suggest, Tom, why are so many manufacturers trying to duplicate
>it, and so many consumers willing to shell out so many greenbacks to buy
>*approximations* of it???

They are living in the past.  The transition to electronics is painful;
the investment people have in acoustics is heavy (cultural, emotional,
professional, financial).  Gotta give people what they want.

>	The timbre associated with a piano is a complex and wonderful thing
>that, as you so astutely observed, involves the acoustics of the room in which
>it is played. It is a slight digression to note that many of the finest pipe 
>organs were not only designed for the particular room in which they were to be
>installed, but some actually *had the rooms designed specifically for them*!
>I think that you would agree that the room interaction can play an important
>part of the overall sound.

Yeah, we all read The Physics of the Piano in Scientific American years ago.
(Physics of the Harpsichord is in there THIS MONTH!).

>	Please understand that I never intended to convey the opinion that
>acoustic was inherently better than electronic. Each has it's place, but
>*neither can be a substitute for the other in all cases*.
>                                              
>	I see no technical reason why an electronic keyboard couldn't be
>designed with the dynamic range of an acoustic. However I think you would
>quickly find that the difficulty and expense of such an approach would be
>excessive. To truly and accurately duplicate, say, a fine grand piano, would
>require duplicating each note. For those not familiar with the construction of
>pianos the lower notes are made up of two strings, whereas the higher notes
>require three. The complex interaction of these strings not only with each
>other but with all the other notes on the harp assembly, produces the unique

The lowest strings even up to 7 feet are one wrapped string.

>timbre of the individual instrument. This timbre changes not only with the note
>but with the velocity at which the hammer strikes the string! This means that
>to truly duplicate the sound of a piano, not only would you have to duplicate
>the sound of each note, but the *sound of each note at each velocity*! To
>complicate things even further the interaction of one note with another can
>vary wildly depending on whether or not the sustain pedal is being held down.

Yes, we know about sympathetic vibration (mechanical coupling, like a pair
of pendulums coupled through a rod).  Yawn!  Use a long faint reverb.

>If it is not then the notes played are affected only by the other notes that
>are being held whatever they are. 
>	The amount of memory or processing, I think you would agree, would be
>excessive. You would probably also need a new MIDI protocol with a higher
>velocity resolution than 127. The point of all this is that the sound of a
>piano, or just about any other acoustic instrument, is far more complex than
>your comments seem to allow.

I doubt the person mentioned in .0 would know the difference.

>	It this all just BS? No! this is what makes the piano such an
>expressive instrument! I very much doubt that someone as into music as yourself
>doesn't appreciate the value of expressiveness. Maybe you get yours through
>aftertouch and pitchbend etc... Please don't berate those of us who appreciate
>the ability to draw expressiveness out of an instrument by touch alone.

I have never used aftertouch or pitchbend, until last night when the DH200
plyed the tx.  I didn't berate you; I'm one of you.  I am now, though ;-).

>>>	There's no sound quality there.  An electronic keyboard with
>>>	a quality piano patch with a nice used srv2000 in headphones
>>>	sounds much better than a 6-1 in a living room.
>
>	That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. However, why are so
>many others, concert pianists and the like, not switching to electronic pianos
>if they are soooo much better?
They will.  Give them time.  Jazzers did long ago, rather than put up with
the junk pianos in every dive.
hey will.  Give them time.
>
>>>	How much are you willing to spend on oil heat and humidifiers and
>>>	4 tunings a year in upkeep?
>
>	Give me a break, it's not that nearly that bad. With any reasonable
>temperature control (say a thermostat set to livable conditions) and a
No, 4 tunings per year is recommended or two minimum in every piano technicians'
book I have.  (I still have my tuning hammer)

>reasonably well designed piano, one tuning a year would be plenty. How much are
>you willing to spend on buying new electronic gear every year? Gear that, I
>might add, depreciates in price at about 25-50% per year.
>
>	Let me state once and for all I LOVE ACOUSTIC. I ALSO LOVE ELECTRONIC.
>EACH HAS ITS PLACE! Live and let live. Is this a great country or what? You can

It's a deal.

Tom
>express your OPINION and I can express MINE.
>
>	Live long and prosper!
>	Mark

Gee, the words go round and round. Seems like everybody actually realizes that
there are two different thingies out there and it's possible for anyone to
prefer either or love both. Whaddyaknow.

The discussion of various physical characteristics of pianos and the preference
for different types of sounds in a *sampled* piano combined to bring up an
interesting point (at least, to me): has anyone ever heard of an available
piano sound sampled from a *fortepiano?* I love it for early music pieces, but
actually owning one is out of the question, cost and space wise. I wouldn't
think that there is enough market for this to justify its existence, but you
never know.

Bob

    Seems this conversation is a duplicate of one held in here or the MUSIC
    conference about 3 years ago.  My position is this; I owned a gorgeous
    1919 Chickering grand, 6'4", for many years.  Its sounding board was
    intact, and the action was in good shape.  When I moved across the
    country, I chose not to bring it with me, and gave it to a family
    member.  I have an acoustic Haddorf 'apartment grand' early 1930's
    vintage.  I don't play it any more !
    
    The combination of a good playback system, a responsive KX88 MIDI
    controller, a Kurzweil 1000PX rack unit, and a digital reverb has me
    happy as can be.  I will agree that the Roland MKS-20 digital grand had
    a wider dynamic range, really ppp-fff.  Hmmm.. p'raps I can play with
    the Kurzweil's response curves a bit.  Anyway, it's fun to play, has
    trained me away from mashing the sustain pedal all the time, and
    records perfectly every time.
    
    Now, if I lived in a large space, nothing equals a grand.  I agree that
    there's some upkeep and tuning req'd, but it's not onerous.  However !
    In a small room it's a crime.. not to mention enormous.  AND it would
    be nearly impossible to get spacious recordings (ALWAYS my priority!)
    without some soundproofing, EQ, fine microphones, and digital reverb.. 
    which leads me right back to an electronic instrument.
    
    The talk about "touch" on an acoustic piano makes me smile.  There's no
    such thing as "touch".  I see classical pianists 'leaning into' a note
    on the piano to make it 'sing'.  There's no such thing.  The 'sing' is
    just sustain, because the damper hasn't dropped yet.  Yes, the attack 
    of a note varies based on hammer velocity.  So do the notes on my 
    Kurzweil, as did the Roland MKS-20.  They're just conning themselves
    and their audience, swaying around and looking romantic.
    
    karl

    Oh, I'm not sure about that "touch" thing, Kaaaaarl....
    
    Even on my synths, I find myself moving my fingers left and right on 
    the individual keys in order to induce some vibrato. I'm *sure* it
    works, it just feels so 'right'...
    
    Now if my lowly DX responds, all the whiz-bang Boesenclaviers should
    also...
    
    Edd
    
    

    re: finger induced vibrato...
    
    I do the same!   NO KIDDING!  8-)
    
    DREAM:  18' mega-concert grand piano with 112 keys, perfectly tuned in
    a humidor room (would make one heck of a cigar stand)
    
    REALITY:  KX88 w/MKS-20 (soon-to-be-U220) through SRV2000 reverb, and an 
    occasional cigar for effect (in honor of Pete Barbute).
    
    Steve

    For educated advice on buying acoustic pianos, go to the library
    and check out "The Piano Book" by Larry Fine.

	Still looking for an accoustic piano and trying to convince her to
	by a digital one?
	If so... we had the same problem: my wife having played hitherto
	on 'the real thing', and now having not enough room in the house,
	we decided to go digital...
	We got some demonstrations in piano 'shops' and weren't convinced
	at all... untill (!!!) we met ROLAND's HP-2700 and HP-3700...

	They sound AND FEEL (!) just like the real thing for my wife, and have
	all MIDI-connections you might need... 
	The HP-2700 has a black finish, while the 3700 is brown, has a somewhat
	more powerfull amplifier and 'sound board' ... and they are both
	beautifull furniture!
	We bought the HP-2700 -- around 100.000 BF in Belgium (= 2700 US-$)

	So my advice: find yourself a dealer and have your wife take a look
	at both instruments... I think you should be able to convince her...

	Good luck!

	Dirk

	I forgot to mention this yesterday (previous reply):

	A friend of mine who had been playing classical music (flute) for
	years, couldn't play anymore as he would keep his newly born first
	doughter awake... this was summer 1990...
	So... he decided to focus his attention on another instrument...
	He started a Digital Piano Quest (ear phones!) and, just like
	we, he came accross ROLAND's HP-2700 and bought it...
	He started to look for a good piano teacher and found one.
	He asked her if she didn't mind him not having 'the real stuff' at
	home to practice... she replied that a GOOD digital piano is far more
	interesting to have at home, because a GOOD digital one is much better
	than most accoustic piano's that cost AT LEAST 5 times as much!!!
	This put his mind at ease and he now is making fast progress as he is
	able to practice each evening for about two hours while his little
	doughter is sleeping...

	Another reference:
	The ballet school of the community we live in (more than 20000
	inhabitants?), work with ROLAND'S HP-2500 which is the 2700/3700's
	predecessor...

	And another one:
	I am told that in the latest issue of our national Consumer's Guide
	(TESTAANKOOP) the 3700 and 2700 are declared best and second best...
	If this is true (haven't seen it yet, but can believe it!), they
	must indeed be the best...

	Once more: good luck!

	Dirk

    This reminds me of my experiences back when my wife was getting her BS
    in music performance.  One of the things she had to do was practice for
    her piano proficiency.  We had a newborn and she had to stay home.  We
    solved the noise problem by getting one of these student pianos from
    Baldwin.  It was used in a school and a bunch of them were sold to a
    local music store.  It has no sounding board but does have a harp
    with standard piano action and strings.  It's the smallest "real" piano
    I've ever seen and is easy to move, for a piano.  It uses an amplifier and 
    provides output on headphones.  But, since you can (barely) hear the piano 
    with it turned off, it was just fine for practice.  It cost us $250
    delivered.  We still have it for when the kids want to learn.
    
    Steve
                                            

    I have one of those Baldwins.  The sound, and particularly the action,
    is not anywhere near the quality of a good digital piano.  I keep
    thinking I should re-invent the electronics, but the action is not
    amenable to improvement, methinks.  The Yamaha CP60M that I have in my
    studio is short an octave, but is a much better piano.
    
    	Eirikur
    

    Yeah.  But, it cost me $250 and with a wife that insists we have a real
    piano I'm getting off cheap!  I never touch the thing.  :)
    
    Steve

    I'm sort of in the same position as .0.  I really enjoyed all the
    helpful advice in this topic and brought a copy home to show the wife
    
    Hopefully, it will convince her to buy a Roland HP3700 ;-)
    
    Mike

    I sort of wonder why nobody seems to know about the new Roland 
    FP-8 portable digital piano. It has been available since July this
    year, at least in Europe. Price around US$ 3300/4595HFL.
    I have been comparing at least 5 electric pianos and 5 piano sound
    modules and I still conclude that this machine has the best real piano
    sound I have ever heard from a electric piano and not to forget the new
    developed hammer action mechanism (This includes also many bad accoustic 
    pianos I have to play on). The loudspeakers are thin in the bas side
    but with the ROLAND HD100 headset, there is nothing else I would like
    to studie on at home. From now on I can study on a "Bosendorfer" if I
    want.
    
    I have the new product news flyer in my possesion with details. If
    anyone is interested I'll put give details in this note. It's about
    a 1 sheet info. 

    >I sort of wonder why nobody seems to know about the new Roland 
    >FP-8 portable digital piano. 
    
    Well, because... a) Roland makes approximately 27,000 separate digital
    pianos  b) so do other manufacturers  c) $3300 for a unit that makes
    one family of sounds, no matter how good, is not seen (at least by ME)
    as a sound (sorry) investment  d) many of us have gone modular with our
    setups, and are oriented toward recording, not livingroom piano
    replacement units.
    
    However, the later Roland pianos (I had an early MKS-20 rack unit) DO
    sound great - they've done something cool around the sostenuto effect.
    There really IS an opening/blooming of the sound when the pedal's down.
    
    karl

    I think the FP-8 is just yet another re-packaging of the basic
    technology that started with the venerable MKS-20 and hasn't really
    changed much since then.
    
    I would be extremely surprised if the FP-8 sounded any better than
    any of Roland's other SAS-based electronic pianos.
    
    > I still conclude that this machine has the best real piano sound
    > I have ever heard from a electric piano
    
    Have you heard a Kurzweil?
    
    In my opinion, the Kurzweil is definitely better than the Roland's (and
    I *OWN* a Roland SAS piano, the RD-300), but for some silly reason,
    Kurzweil hasn't yet put it in a package that would be attractive to
    people looking for for things like the FP-8.
    
    So far (to the best of my knowledge) it's only been in rack-mounted
    modules and the K-1000 series which come with extremely cheesey feeling
    keyboards (IMHO).
    
    	db
    
    p.s. SAS = Structured Adaptive Synthesis

>    In my opinion, the Kurzweil is definitely better than the Roland
    
    All RIGHT !  ;-)
    
>    Kurzweil hasn't yet put it in a package that would be attractive to
>    people looking for for things like the FP-8.
>    So far (to the best of my knowledge) it's only been in rack-mounted
>    modules and the K-1000 series 
    
    Dave, there's a buncha Kurzweil products called Ensemble Grands.  These
    use real wood furniture quality cases, both in upright and 'console'
    formats, 1000PX series electronics inside with a good (K250?
    MIDIBoard?) 88-note weighted keyboard.  Mucho dinero.  Some of these 
    even include a Kurzweil sequencer so you can record your own 
    multitimbral livingroom concertos.  
    
    karl

    To put things in perspective:
    I was looking for 
    1 The best piano sound, at least by means of a headset or amplified 
      (headset and amplifier is very personal, it's just what you like to 
      hear)
    2 the best keyboard in terms of touch and feel (FP-8 offers expressive
      ness comparable to a concert grand piano - almost true, very close)
    3 the lightiest keyboard (24 Kg/50lb 11 0z)                                                    
    
    That's what I found in the FP-8.
    
    Thanks anyway for your comments; through your replies to this topic 
    I have visited a number of shops with a feeling I knew what I had to
    look for, watch out for, showing the salesman that I wasn't too much of
    a novice guy.
    
    (I do agree there isn't nothing better than a GOOD accoustic piano but
    is doesn't always serve your purpose. A real piano is a good
    investment, becomes every year a better value, not easy to take away
    preventing theft)

Article 1397 of clari.news.music:
Subject: Steinway goes Japanese for new line of pianos
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 92 11:51:23 PST

	NEW YORK (UPI) -- Steinway, the preeminent American piano firm, will
manufacture a new line of pianos in Japan to be sold exclusively by
Steinway dealers worldwide under the name ``Boston.''
	The Boston line will include four grand piano models, but not a
concert grand, and four vertical models.
	The new line will be introduced simultaneouly Jan. 16 in New York and
at the National Association of Music Merchandisers convention in
Anaheim, Calif., Jan. 16, the firm announced.
	The company said the Boston would be ``the product of Steinway's
design expertise and manufacturing processes and will be priced
comparably with other quality, volume-produced pianos.'' It will be
manufactured independently of Steinway pianos which are hand-crafted in
the United States and Germany.
	``The goal of creating the Boston piano line is to offer very high
quality in a piano which a greater number of people can afford,'' said
Bruce A. Stevens, president of Steinway Musical Properties.