Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Sounds interesting, but there aren't any in stores :-(

	E.

Well, I've now seen these at Daddy's and seen a fairly enthusiastic review in
EM (Electronic Musician). I hope to get to try the box out soon, in comparison
to a Midiverb III, Multiverb III, and DSP-mumble; I'd like to try the DSP-256XL,
but last time I was there Daddy's only had a DSP-16.

The EM review indicated, as I recall, that the SE50 was very quiet, had good
effects, and provided especially good control over the stereo output of its
reverbs. Its price, at least at Daddy's, puts it somewhere in the range of
the above units, and maybe the Quadraverb.

Anyone already heard/bought one of these?

Bob

    I'm not sure of the price, but there are 2 guitarists over in GUITAR
    that seem impressed with their new Rocktron Intellifex units.
    
    It's probably the QUIETEST efx unit (no distortion) on the market.
    
    Mike

Well, I succumbed to instant gratification with the SE50, after a long time
dithering about on an effects box. This is my first such unit, so perhaps my
impression is a bit more enthusiastic than that of some of you more "jaded"
types might be, but to me it sounds superb. I've listened to the Midiverb and
Multiverb III units during my "shopping" phase, but when I heard the SE50 it
was "love at first listen."

The main distinctions of the SE50, as I can see them, are:

- *true* stereo inputs. The biggest factor making this unit stand out, IMHO.
	The inputs are actually processed individually, though not all
	algorithms make use of this capability. A number of algorithms are
	provided which do, though- including separate chorus and reverb,
	separate reverb and gated reverb, separate delay and reverb, and- get
	this- a seven-band vocoder!

- half-rack size. Not real important, as such things go, but adds to the
	"how'd-they-do-it" rating.

- gorgeous sounds. I've read again and again that reverbs are a matter of taste.
	Though I liked the Alesis and Multiverb sounds, as I said, the SE50's
	simply mesmerized me. Some are quite distinctive, such as that produced
	by using a large "step" parameter for the unit's phaser effect.

The effects provided include reverb (including gated and *true* stereo), chorus,
delay (including multi-tap), phaser, flanger, pitch shift, rotating speakers
(presumably "Leslies"), distortion ("overdrive" and "tube") and vocoder. Some of
the algorithms include noise suppression and compressor or limiter functions.

One (arguably notable) drawback, compared to similar units, is the MIDI control
of effects parameters. Out of the 28 basic algorithms provided, only ten provide
MIDI control, and only a single parameter can be under MIDI control for any
algorithm. For my purposes, I don't think this will represent a severe
limitation- especially since I'm not really accustomed to any effects at all,
much less MIDI control over them.

Another factor which sort of surprised me is that this unit uses "only" 16-bit
processing. It seems, from advertising I've seen, that the effects folks are
competing to get more resolution in their processing, with 20 and 24 bits
quite common. If 16 bits is an "inferior" spec in this regard, I certainly can't
hear it!

To avoid total boredom for those just scanning this note, I'll include some more
details in the next reply.

Cheers,
	Bob

Well, after three crashes of NOTES while I was trying to enter this reply
interactively, I'm including this one as a textfile. Grrrrrrr!

The frequency response of the SE50 is 20Hz-20KHz or 20Hz-15KHz, depending on
the given algorithm's sampling frequency, which is either 32 KHz or 48 KHz.
(FWIW, 7 of the unit's 28 algorithms use the higher sampling rate.)

There are 28 basic processing algorithms, which are stored in read-only
areas (101-128), plus room for 100 user-definable patches based on those
algorithms. The algorithms are made up of individual effects as follows:

Hall 1			Reverb
Hall 2			Reverb
Room			Reverb
Plate			Reverb
Ambience		Ambience (Proprietary term, as far as I know)
Gate reverb		Gate reverb
Stereo reverb		Reverb
Multi delay		Up to 5 delays, in series
Multitap delay		Up to five delays, independent
Stereo delay		Delay, Includes cross-channel feedback
Space chorus		Chorus
Multi Pitch shifter	Up to four individual pitch shifts simultaneously, up to
			two octaves each
Stereo pitch shifter	Individual pitch shifts for each channel, with predelay
			and cross-channel feedback
Stereo flanger		Flanger, includes cross-channel phase setting, 0-180
			degrees
Stereo phaser		Phaser - preserves stereo image of inputs
Vocoder (!)		7-band vocoder, with chorus and noise suppression
			effects added
Rotary			Rotary speaker effect, with noise suppression. Several
			parameters, including speed, rise time, ...
Keyboard multi 1	Several effects in series: EQ (3-band, middle is
			parametric, plus low-pass filter), delay, chorus,
			reverb
Keyboard multi 2        Several effects: Phaser, EQ (as above), chorus, reverb,
Rhodes			EQ, Phaser, noise suppressor, chorus, pan, reverb
Guitar multi		Compressor, Overdrive/Distortion EQ, noise suppressor,
			delay, chorus, reverb, line driver
Vocal multi		Limiter, "enhancer" (proprietary term, as far as I
			know), noise suppressor, delay, chorus, reverb
Stereo enhancer		Limiter, enhancer, noise suppressor
2Channel mixer		Independent processing of L and R EQ, noise suppressor,
			reverb, delay tap, chorus
Reverb1 + Reverb2	Independent L + R reverb; output can be mono+mono or
			stereo.
Gate reverb + reverb	Similar processing for reverb and gated reverb
Chorus + Reverb		Similar processing for chorus and reverb
Delay + Reverb		Similar processing for delay and reverb

This doesn't cover the various configurable parameters for each effect, which
seem more than adequate and quite simple to adjust. Also, each individual
effect in a multi-effect algorithm can be switched off at will.

If anyone has specific questions, I can (hopefully) provide answers as needed.
If these replies have piqued your interest, take a listen for yourself!

Cheers,
	Bob

    Years ago I had a Boss Chorus Ensemble with that beautiful, clear,
    subtle, silvery stereo chorus, and it didn't eat the highs like other
    phaser/chorus units of the time did.  
    
    Uh, so how's the chorus effect itself sound ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?   ?     ?
    
    karl

Keep in mind that as far as effects go, I'm like one born deaf and only
recently acquiring the gift of hearing- all things sound beautiful (at least to
an extent!).

The chorus sounds gorgeous to me. You can vary both the speed and the amplitude,
allowing subtle "shimmering" effects as well as those that come *this* (||)
close to making you (or at least me) nauseous; kind of like many opera singers
with that +/- quarter-tone vibrato. I didn't bring in the manual today, and I
haven't memorized all the details, but I can look up whatever hard info might be
useful.

I can't recall if it's the chorus,  or the flanger which has a "step" parameter
to control the granularity- I think it's the flanger. The result of using a
large "step" is a series of individually-sounding overtones, giving both a
harmonic and a rhythmic feel which can "drive" a piece with a one-voice melody.
Can't say yet whether it's truly as musically useful as it is intriguing, but
my current guess would be yes.

Hope this helps.

Bob

    Ah, but this is one of the banes leading to MIDIholism (TM - Dave 
    Blickstein).  You see, the better your equipment, the better your
    hearing gets (if you keep levels down to less than painful levels).
    Over time, that "clean, crisp, shimmering" sound will become normal and
    you may begin to long for the "grundgy, beefy, chalky" sound of, say,
    some analog beast.  Anybody remember falling in love with the airy,
    crisp sounds of Y* FM?  How about the jungle dance of a D50?  One of
    the reasons I think some swear by certain analog machines is because
    the sound is always changing and moving, rather than staying the same
    every time as digital machines tend to do.  What is virtue becomes vice
    and vice versa.  That "shimmering" that you hear now in the box that
    has caused to you fall in love with it could well become your reason
    for dumping it later on.
    
    How does one deal with this?  I think what you have to look for in any
    box are things like low noise, high bandwidth, programmability, 
    reliability and wide range of sound.  These are features that have made 
    some older synths still valued and useful today.  I expect the same
    will be or is the same for FX boxes.
    
    Steve

To tell the truth, Steve, the *overall* sound of the machine was what sucked me
in- I was just trying to answer Karl's question in some way that seemed to make
sense, given the lack of true "multimedia notes."

The real draw for me was the reverb sound, plus the separate treatment of stereo
ins. I figured the effects I've never thought of using, like distortion,
phaser, flanger, etcetera will "grow" on me and I'll find ways (excuses?) to
make use of them now that they're available... Vocoding also seems quite useful
as well as "cutesie-" I've found, for instance, that it can substitute as a
breath controller, which I don't have (and my synth doesn't respond to); it also
makes voice patches much more expressive, by applying, for example, simple "oo"
and "aah" vocalization.

The chorus does combine well with the reverb to "fatten" a thin sound. My
Kawai K1-II, like many other synths, suffers from lowered polyphony as the
price for layered sounds, but chorus combined with reverb (and maybe a pinch of
flange?) enriches some of the "minimal" sounds unbelievably. Turning off the
effects for an A/B comparison is like listening to Darth Vader with his helmet
off, so to speak. Or maybe listening to Jimmy Smith followed by the Monkees.

Anyway,
	still_loving_it,
			Bob

>..enriches some of the "minimal" sounds unbelievably. Turning off the
>effects for an A/B comparison is like listening to Darth Vader with his helmet
>off, so to speak. Or maybe listening to Jimmy Smith followed by the Monkees.
    
    A reason why I try to record my pieces with all effects OFF, except
    when there's a syncopated echo that I have to hear.
    
    thanx.  karl

First off, let me correct a "whoops-gaffe-snafu-faux pas-screwup" on the SE50
specs.

The processing is actually 24-bit, not 16-bit; the latter is the spec for the
units A/D and D/A converters. Amazingly enough, I got this out of the marketing
glossy- didn't see it anywhere in the manual! I sort of wondered how Boss could
get such beautiful sounds out of 16 bits, and why anyone would be "pushing the
envelope" if this were the case. Duh.

Re -1:

Karl, I have heard this approach to the use of effects cited repeatedly; the
(laudable) object seems to be to preserve the unadorned sound, so that any
manipulations are simply part of the mixdown. Given my own setup, though, I'm
sort of viewing two "layers" of effects use: one which I would consider part of
the basic *sound* being recorded on a track, and another applied to the mix as
a whole as part of the mixdown process.

"Fattening" effects on a synth sound lets get me the most polyphony possible
from my synth while still giving me a rich sound I could otherwise only produce
with a more complex patch and resulting lower polyphony. As a f'rinstance, I
have a passable, but thin, pipe organ patch which only uses two (the minimum) of
my Kawai's waveforms. Applying some chorus and reverb to this makes a fuller
pipe organ sound than the *real* pipe organ at my church. (It also is a better
sound than I've gotten to date by stacking more waveforms!) I have a jazz organ
patch which responds similarly. Used in this way, I see the effects as, more
or less, an extension of my synth.

At the mixdown stage, I can then use the effects "globally" to provide the
"natural" ambience desired; frankly, I was anticipating using only (stereo)
reverb at this stage.

Before I attempt to *execute* this strategy (tonight? this weekend?), does
anyone have any comment on just *how* ridiculous it is?

Bob

P.S. Yeah, I know, a digression from the basenote. So sue me!

    re .12 - I concur; I consider (at least) chorus to be an integral part
    of many of my patches, to the point that both my SuperJupiters, my
    Matrix 1000, and my VZ-10M have *dedicated* choruses hung on their
    outputs, and both the JX-10 and D-550 have builtin choruses that are
    often invoked.  Reverb, however, I apply as Karl does - its a property
    of the synthetic space in which the sounds are heard, not an inherent
    property of the sounds themselves.
    
    len.
    

Thanks for some confirmation of a novice's view from an "experienced hand," Len.
And BTW, congrats on a well-put, succinct description of reverb as applied to a
mixdown:

>    a property
>    of the synthetic space in which the sounds are heard, not an inherent
>    property of the sounds themselves.

Cheers,
	Bob

    I just traded my DSP-128 for an SE-50 and can honestly say I'm very
    impressed with this new piece of equipment. I spent about 4 hours A/Bing 
    the SE-50, Quadraverb, and the new Multiverb Alpha and I can honestly say 
    (IMO) this was the best sounding box of the three. It's 24 bit 20-20k 
    processor produced a quality of effect sounding far more open, and for
    lack of a better description less "SQUISHED" then either of the 
    competitive boxes. The Parameters are easy to access and edit, and  offer 
    a far greater level of control than any other similar device  in the 
    $400 - $500  price range.

Let me tell you a little about it.....

Flexibility:
------------

OK it does offer 19 different effects (not counting the 6 different reverbs)
in 28 different algorithms . The algorithms can't be chained together.
However 3 of them offer a fairly good variety of the effects. For example...

	Algorithm called "Guitar 1" offers

	Compressor
	OD/Distortion 
	3 band Parametric EQ
	Noise Suppressor
	Chorus
	Delay
	Reverb
	and Line Driver

Now this seems a little like overkill but you can easily edit the patch to 
eliminate any of these effects from the chain. When you do this these effects 
are eliminated not set with a "0 Effect Level" All the effects are fully 
editable however fewer parameters for each effect are present due to memory
restrictions. Each effect in the chain has a "MIX level" parameter and there 
is a programmable master effects level that controls the total effects mix As 
well as a Master Level to control patch volume (A problem with the SGE's from
what I've been reading). 

Midi and Real Time:
-------------------

You have realtime access to 1 parameter per patch with an Expression pedal. This
must be programmed into the patch. A very easy process. Of course it offers 
complete Midi functionality including mapping. and for those w/out a midi pedal 
you can set ranges for standard up down clicking with your favorite 20$ pedal.


Cool Things:
------------

The unit has a 2 channel mixer built in. Really neet for some things. The
2 channel mixer offers Reverb, Delay, and Chorus fro both channels besides 
the mixer capabilities. I'm sure I'll find some use for this.

One of the real neat features of this unit is that it is a true stereo 
processor. What I mean by that is there are certain patches that will process
the left and right inputs separately. You can add reverb to the left channel 
and delay to the right channel, or different reverbs for each channel ect... 
This has some interesting possibilities for recording. 

Editing titles, copying patches, and programming are a snap. You don't need to 
spend more than 3 min. with the book to figure out all you need to know to get
started.

Now for the most important thing  
                     
Effect Quality:
--------------

I've always loved BOSS effects and Roland the one of the finest names in 
processing equipment. It's only natural that they would put out a quality
piece of machinery. And I think they succeeded with this one !

The Line driver is very usable ! I test ran it through my 4 Track last
night and it was very very close to a miked speaker sound. There are 2 varieties
of line drivers offered. One simulates a large tube amp....the other a smaller
amp. I liked the first one considerably more. Very realistic. I'll be doing
the majority of my recording direct form now on. 

The Reverb effects are excellent. The 20-20k makes a huuuuuuge difference in
sound quality. You'd expect any company that was going to put out an expensive 
effects unit better have descent reverb and this is no exception. Even the 
salesman (who actually wanted me to buy the Quad.Verb because he owned one)
admitted after listening to both that the reverb of the SE-50 was superior 
to that of the Quad. It sounded much more open, didn't seem to squish the
signal, and rang sweetly after the note was struck. And of course you are 
offered the variety...Plate, Reverse, Gated, Hall, Room, and Stereo just
to make it interesting.

The Flange, and Phase are fantastic. Very controllable and just perfect if
you have to play "Ain't Talking About Love", or Fly High Again". I've been
searching for an effects unit that can actually do a good Flange and Phase.
And this one does it to a tee. I'm Psyched about these.

The Chorus...sweet and shimmering. Capable of doing a sweet chorus, a quick 
vibrato or even a descent flange. I like it better than the chorus on my
ADA and I love that analog chorus. 

The Pitch shift was very usable. It comes in 2 Varieties...5 time or Stereo. 
It is fine tunable +/- 100 and has a 4 octave range (up or down up to 2 octave)
and is capable of up to 5 pitch shifts at a time. Of course delay time between 
each shift is also programmable.

Overall:
--------

There is alot more to this unit than I've covered here. There are some
stunning effects such as a Vocorder, Rotary Speaker, and Ambiance that I
havn't even tried yet. I love this unit and I would recommend it to anyone
looking to upgrade or just purchase a new unit. It is definitely a quality 
piece of equipment.  

    I hope my Zoom 9002 is better...
    

    
    
    It's not...but it costs more, so you should be able to sell it and get
    enough cash out to buy an SE-50...