Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    Wersi makes some MIDIed organs with dual keyboards.  That's about the
    closest I've seen.  
    
    							Brian

    Yes, I've seen the WERSI's...a friend of mine recently built their
    latest "top-of-the-line" model, the Spectra.
    
    What I'm looking for is a MIDI keyboard controller that I can use with
    various modules (SGU's) that is physically similar to a 2-manual organ
    keyboard.  I know of a couple of other people looking for this same
    thing, too ... thought I'd query the NOTES file ...
    
    	-Jim

    What advantage does a 2 keyboard device have over taking two keyboards
    and stacking one on top of the other?
    
    Certainly is a lot lighter and easier to carry.

    Advantages I can think of ...
    
    1) [as .3 mentions] lighter, easier to carry
    2) easier to set up/tear down
    3) maybe easier to MIDI-up (less cables?)
    4) Easier to play ... esp. if you learned on an organ.  Things like
       using one hand to play notes on BOTH keyboards at the same time
       (organ players do this!).  
    5) General feeling of "comfort/familiarity" if you happen to play organ
    	too
    
    -Jim

    disadvantages I can think of ...
    
    1) one two-keyboard unit WILL be harder to carry than two separates
    2) not a standard controller format, much more expensive than 2 std.
    3) probably not as well-designed a MIDI control functionality (like
       multiple channel output, splits, reassigned CC's, etc.
    4) having to plug in one extra MIDI cable to connect two standard 
       controllers does not qualify as onerous duty
    
    karl

    > much more expensive...
    
    Maybe not, seeing they can share lots of stuff, like cases, power
    supplies, etc...
    
    Edd

    >        <<< Note 2495.6 by DCSVAX::COTE "Can't touch this..." >>>

>> much more expensive...
    
>    Maybe not, seeing they can share lots of stuff, like cases, power
>    supplies, etc...
    
    There's this concept called 'economy of scale'.  I'll spare you the
    explanation...  and bet you lunch instead...
    
    karl

I expect that Karl is right.  An idea for a garage-shop product would be a set
of brackets for bolting two inexpensive controllers (Ensoniq SQ1's? The
Oberheim Xk is out of production) together.  If it were to use a programmable
controller, add software to make the marriage work.

	Eirikur

>    1) [as .3 mentions] lighter, easier to carry
    
    Lighter perhaps but not easier to carry.  It's much easier to carry
    two separate small units than one big unit.  It's also easier to pack
    two units separately into a trunk than one big unit.
    
    You probably couldn't carry a two-manual unit by yourself. 
    
>    2) easier to set up/tear down
>    3) maybe easier to MIDI-up (less cables?)
    
    Granted, although we're talking maybe 5 minutes here.
    
>    4) Easier to play ... esp. if you learned on an organ.  Things like
>       using one hand to play notes on BOTH keyboards at the same time
>       (organ players do this!).  
>    5) General feeling of "comfort/familiarity" if you happen to play organ
>    	too
    
    Moot point. You can get these advantages by stacking two units.
    
    Pragmatically I still don't see why you'd want one but more power to
    ya'.
    
    	db
    

    You could always look for a MIDIed Prophet-10, if you're really into
    dual manuals.
    
    I, like the rest, don't see what the advantage would be over 2 61-key
    controllers stacked close together ... also doubt you'd ever find a
    MIDI kybd unit w/ drawbars 8-).
    
+b

    Re .9
    
    >You probably couldn't carry a two-manual unit by yourself
    
    I'll be if it were made like many other controllers, it would be easily
    carry-able.  I've seen single-keyboard controllers (and for that
    matter, single-keyboardS) that weighted 18-25 pounds.  A two manual
    unit that was made without excess size, plastic, etc., could probably
    be done at 30 lbs, maybe 35 - not much heavier than a T3 or M1) ...
    
    >Granted, although we're talking maybe 5 minutes here.
    
    Dave, you know how I am about simplifying, minimizing, etc.  If I can
    find 6 things that save me 5 minutes each, I can save a 1/2-hour at
    setup time [this is something I *have* done]
    
    >Moot point. You can get these advantages by stacking two units.
    
    Almost ... due to the size/design of most single-keyboard units, it
    would be hard to achieve the closeness-of-upper-keyboard-to-lower-one
    using two separates, that you have with an "organ".  Any organist that
    has played my setup has "complained" about that, since they were
    trained, and are used to, AGO-spec (American Guild of Organists)
    organs.  I'm not nearly *that* picky, but I'd buy a 2-keyboard unit 
    if it were (1) made well, (2) fairly lightweight (under 40 pounds),
    (3) not unusually expensive.  A plus would be thumb pistons (MIDI-pro-
    grammable) under the manuals!
    
    To each his own ...
    				-Jim

>>Granted, although we're talking maybe 5 minutes here.
    
>    Dave, you know how I am about simplifying, minimizing, etc.  If I can
>    find 6 things that save me 5 minutes each, I can save a 1/2-hour at
>    setup time [this is something I *have* done]
    
    Yes, in fact, I'm the very same way - perhaps even more so.  I've made
    purchases well over $500 that gave me little more than a few less
    cables or less setup/breakdown time (and plan to make even more).
    
    I suppose that if they could make the thing light enough, it would be
    a nice advantage but I'd probably never get one.
    
    I like having one weighted keyboard and one unweighted keyboard.
    
    Generally I prefer to play as much as possible on the weighted
    keyboard.  I guess I never really "learned" to play an unweighted 
    keyboard (having been weened on a piano).
    
    However, certain stuff is either better or "safer" on an unweighted
    keyboard.  Like I often destroy my hands if I trying doing organ-style
    "wipes" on my weighted keyboard ;-).  Also, my weighted keyboard
    happens not to have pressure-sensitivity but my unweighted keyboard
    does.
    
    However Jim, I strongly doubt that you will find anything that suits
    all the requirements you gave.  There just isn't much demand for it.    

    > There just isn't much demand for it...
    
    I'll bet there could be...
    
    Let's see, first we have the entry model-
    
               DUOKBD-1, 2 organ-type manuals, no velo, no press...
    
    then...
    
               DUOKBD-2, One velo/press manual, one organ type...
    
    followed by the...
    
               DUOKBD-3, 2 velo/press manuals...
    
    I can see the unit now. About 5" high, all controls mounted above the 
    upper manual, front of top keys flush with back of bottom keys, maybe
    2-3" from keytop to keytop. The whole thing need not be much bigger
    than a "normal" controller.
    
    I'm surprised to see the negative responses to this idea.
    
    Edd 

    Re -.2
    
    Yes Dave, I remember how you and I talked awhile back about the
    extremes we'll sometimes go to in the interest of a simpler, easier
    to set up setup!  If I'm able to, via 3 changes in my setup, eliminate
    one power cable plus one MIDI cable, I've eliminated 6 cables -
    anything to reduce the spaghetti.  [You should see my latest project,
    where my USS keyboard stand is now a power distribution system too,
    no separate power strips for me!]
    
    Re -.1
    
    Yes, if done right, I think it could generate *some* sales - some
    people (like .12 and me) would like one of these, others have a
    preference for one weighted and one unweighted keyboard, etc. 
    Actually, I tend to like my lower "manual" to be 76 notes, for
    piano-style playing.  
    
    Done right, the DUOKBD-x could be lightweight, compact, and have some
    nice ergonomics ... controls above the top keyboard, "pistons" below
    each manual, like on a pipe organ, and keyboards stacked to allow
    playing techniques that would be almost impossible on most
    two-separate-controller setups.
    
    Ah, wishful thinking ...
    
    	-Jim

    Woops, I meant
    
    	... (like .13 and me) ...

    Get a couple of Oberheim XK's.  They stack (with the help of a USS
    stand) and are very lightweight.
    
    They don't have the thumb pistons but you can't have everything.
    
    	-Bill
    

    I insist on having my lower manual be 88 keys.
    
    I often find myself playing lounge-style stuff at gigs and I don't
    like having my riff run off the edge of the keyboards.
    
    	db

re: .10

>>> also doubt you'd ever find a MIDI kybd unit w/ drawbars 8-).

    Why not have drawbars replace the programmable slider switches for 
continuous controllers?  I think they'd just as well if not better than the
sliders you find on most "master controllers" (like the Roland A-50 and A-80).
Like a bank of 16 drawbars that could be programmed as volume controls for
the MIDI channels.

- John -
    

    Or, make the drawbars assignable to "whatever". F'rinstance, assign
    them to the operator output levels on Yamaha FM units and you could
    actually use them as drawbars (depending on the algorhythm).
    
    Edd